Is steel cased ammo a bad idea?

[KeithH]

Took my new HK P30 SK 9mm to the range today along with 200 rounds of Federal Aluminum and 100 Rounds of steel cased Tul Ammo. I was skeptical of the steel but I let someone talk me into it. The Federals all worked flawlessly, the Tul Ammo did not. Third fired round of the steel failed to eject and locked the gun down. I had to get range help and a VERY LARGE rubber hammer to hammer the slide loose. The case was still stuck in the chamber and he got another tool to pry it out. I finished the Tul by hand loading them into the chamber one at a time until they were used up. My first and only experience with cheap ammo has left a bad taste in my mouth.

So is steel a bad idea? Or was it just cheap ammo? Or both?

I only carry Federal HST.

[Kyle Reese]

IME, steel cased ammunition performs poorly in HK handguns. Shoots fine in my 9mm Glocks and PX4s, but I'd stick with brass in HKs.

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[Peally]

Steel is less than ideal across the board. It's cheap and runs in a lot of firearms, thus it's popular.

Brass ammo is already cheap and the casings can be reused or sold, so I use them instead. You spent a bundle on a nice HK, put non-Russian level ammo through it ;)

[Duelist]

No, it's not a bad idea, but some of it sucks, and it isn't compatible with all guns. Light strikes and dud rounds seem to occur more frequently with Russian steel case ammo than all other sources and types combined.

I had a rifle in 7.62x54R that I had to clean the chamber carefully, because the varnish on the issue steel-case ammo I used would build up in the chamber.

[KeithH]

The P30 stepped chamber is known to not work with steel cased ammo. And, FWIW, the manual does specifically say not to use it.

Also, like TYR, I’ve not had any problems with steel cased ammo in my Glocks.

Thank you! I went back and reread page 18 of the manual and I completely missed the BOLD RED LETTERED WARNING. I was surprised they mentioned aluminum as well.

[willie]

Though not directly related to the post, some steel cased WW2 and Korean War era .45 acp ammo was used. Extra wear on the extractor was observed in 1911's.

[RevolverRob]

Steel-cased stuff works fine in certain guns and certain kinds of guns.

For instance, in 9mm ARs and/or Ruger P-series 9mms. It tends to run for...ever...really, in those guns. The P30 is a specific can of worms in this regard, but otherwise is a great gun.

I bought several thousands rounds of Tul back during the ~2012'ish ammo crunch for a song really (~6 bucks a box). It's all reserved as practice/plinking ammo for guns that don't mind eating it and that's precisely what I use it for.

[Jeep]

Also, like TYR, I’ve not had any problems with steel cased ammo in my Glocks.

That might not be the case with the Gen 5. I've shot a lot of steel case ammo in Gen 2-4 19's, and the only problem I've ever had is that some of those hard Russian primers wouldn't fire.

However, with my Gen 5 19 I had a round of Brown Bear not fire and neither I nor several others could get the round to eject. I had to take it home and gently tap it open while the grip was in a vise.

Maybe it was just a one time thing, but I'm wondering if the new rifling in the Gen 5 makes steel case ammo less advisable? For myself I will continue to use steel in my Gen 4's when range rules allow, but not in the Gen 5.

[Default.mp3]

My P30LS had no issues with 1000 rounds of Brown Bear 115 gr., but would constantly have stuck chambers with Monarch 115 gr., which I find mildly unusual, given that both brands come out of the Barnaul Cartridge Plant.

[03RN]

Though not directly related to the post, some steel cased WW2 and Korean War era .45 acp ammo was used. Extra wear on the extractor was observed in 1911's.

Citation?

The steal used in steal cased ammo is very soft.

[nalesq]

Even if steel cases do cause additional wear on extractors compared to brass cases, extractors are a lot cheaper than brass cased ammo.


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[GOTURBACK]

From what I understand the primary problem with shooting steel case ammunition is the rate of expansion and contraction, that is why when firing them in HK pistols they get stuck they have expanded during the firing phase and have not contracted sufficiently before ejection and therefore get stuck in the chamber.

[Leroy Suggs]

Another thing about steel case ammo. Most are loaded with bi-metal bullets. Not too good for your barrel.

[willie]

Jeff Cooper is my source. He mentioned this fact occasionally in magazine articles and probably in at least one of is many books. He said that placing a drop of oil on the extractor reduced wear. His reference was steel case ammo fired in 1911's during training when the same pistols would be used over and over again. Also, this ammo would have been made no later than 1952 and would have been manufactured by different companies. Cooper retired from the Marine Corps, and his information came from armorers. I have no idea about steel softness of cases made then.

[Nephrology]

Another thing about steel case ammo. Most are loaded with bi-metal bullets. Not too good for your barrel.

This has been shown to be of minimal concern for rifles, and so far no evidence to suggest it will do much to your pistol barrel. The price savings alone will pay for a new barrel way faster than you will wear one out.

[Kyle Reese]

Another thing about steel case ammo. Most are loaded with bi-metal bullets. Not too good for your barrel.I view my practice guns as consumables, and treat them as expendable.

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[KhanRad]

Here's an interesting test involving AR-15s. Just food for thought:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

[LtDave]

The P30 stepped chamber is known to not work with steel cased ammo. And, FWIW, the manual does specifically say not to use it.

Also, like TYR, I’ve not had any problems with steel cased ammo in my Glocks.

My HK45 wouldn't chamber Hornady Steel cased practice ammo either.

[echo5charlie]

In the past 5 years I have shot in excess of 15,000 rounds of steel cased ammo in .380, 9mm, .40, .45, .223, 7.62x39, and .308. Total number of issues: 8. 2 were in regards to Magpul GL9 mags where the rounds bound up in the tube and caused a failure to feed. 3 were complete misfires (2x9mm, 1x.380). 3 were with my HK P30: 2 failures to feed and 1 failure to eject.

Of note: during one outing our G36KE fired ~1000 rounds of TulAmmo on full auto running a Gemtech Halo can. No failures. Our UMP .45 also likes steel cased ammo.

All that being said, I prefer brass cased ammo and YMMV.

[1986s4]

I found my old P-30 to be rather intolerant of out of spec cases, brass or anything else. Ammo that ran fine in my other pistols was a no go in the HK. On the other hand it was noticeably more accurate with ammo my Beretta and CZ shot poorly. It also ran best with full power ammo, choking on weaker stuff. A service/duty pistol meant to be used with duty quality ammo.

[jeep45238]

I don't use steel case in fluted or stepped chambers. Other than that, I'd run the heck out of it if I wasn't reloading. Be aware that it usually has a lower powder charge and lower QC, which can cause cycling/reliability issues.

I'd pass on aluminum, as it oxidizes rapidly when exposed to air (and it is clear/translucent), and aluminum oxide is what sandpaper is made out of. That might be me going overboard, but I'd rather reduce the chances if possible.

[LittleLebowski]

Steel is less than ideal across the board. It's cheap and runs in a lot of firearms, thus it's popular.

Brass ammo is already cheap and the casings can be reused or sold, so I use them instead. You spent a bundle on a nice HK, put non-Russian level ammo through it ;)

There’s a lot of hate towards #PoorFags (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=PoorFags) like myself on here :(

[LittleLebowski]

In all seriousness, I love steel cased ammo, don’t shoot HKs, and have never had steel cased ammo cause repetitive problems. In fact, I can’t remember the last time I had a problem with steel cased ammo in ARs.

[jeep45238]

It's my understanding that abrasives are made from crystalline aluminum oxide which is much harder than the thin amorphous aluminum oxide passivation layer that forms on bare aluminum exposed to oxygen. I may be mistaken, but I think the hardness of amorphous aluminum oxide is essentially the same as aluminum.

I'm no chemistry expert, and avoid it as much as possible, but I'll hedge my bets.

[willie]

My bias causes me to associate steel case ammo with the now defunct USSR and the former Soviet bloc countries in Eastern Europe. Whereas I would blow this crap through SKS and AK type rifles, I choose not to buy it. But I do admit having done so at one time. I have no doubt that some of it is good ammo but can't specify. In recent years I have personally observed emergence of shit ammo within some of our American manufacturers. If we choose to make and sell some substandard ammunition, then certainly Russia and its neighbors can do the same thing. If a famous gun maker can bungle production of its most famous pump shotgun that it once had made 10s of millions of reliable specimens of the same, then we must not be surprised at what else might appear on retail shelves.

I must be honest. Just because I refuse to buy steel cased ammo, I would most happily shoot other peoples' if they were to decide that they no longer wanted their batch. I would "burn it up" to prove my friendship. However, I would be most picky about what I shot it through.;)

[LittleLebowski]

I don't use steel case in fluted or stepped chambers. Other than that, I'd run the heck out of it if I wasn't reloading. Be aware that it usually has a lower powder charge and lower QC, which can cause cycling/reliability issues.

I'd pass on aluminum, as it oxidizes rapidly when exposed to air (and it is clear/translucent), and aluminum oxide is what sandpaper is made out of. That might be me going overboard, but I'd rather reduce the chances if possible.

ToddG literally put tens of thousands of rounds of aluminum cased Blaser ammo through his test guns in a short time period and meticulously documented all wear. He never once mentioned unusual wear resulting from the aluminum. If you are looking for statistical data, go here:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports

[jeep45238]

Like I mentioned above, I’m no chemistry expert, and I know that structure plays a huge role in characteristics- I just hedge my bets with brass. If aluminum was horrible for guns chambers it’s use would have stopped years ago in all likelihood, but for me when I see a chemical name shared like that (again structure differences), my chemistry-dumb brain throws a red flag and looks elsewhere, to simply my decision making process.

Might not be the most factual way to do it, but it simplifies my life a bit.


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[LittleLebowski]

It's my understanding that abrasives are made from crystalline aluminum oxide which is much harder than the thin amorphous aluminum oxide passivation layer that forms on bare aluminum exposed to oxygen. I may be mistaken, but I think the hardness of amorphous aluminum oxide is essentially the same as aluminum.

https://coedmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/scientist.gif

[LittleLebowski]

My bias causes me to associate steel case ammo with the now defunct USSR and the former Soviet bloc countries in Eastern Europe. Whereas I would blow this crap through SKS and AK type rifles, I choose not to buy it. But I do admit having done so at one time. I have no doubt that some of it is good ammo but can't specify. In recent years I have personally observed emergence of shit ammo within some of our American manufacturers. If we choose to make and sell some substandard ammunition, then certainly Russia and its neighbors can do the same thing. If a famous gun maker can bungle production of its most famous pump shotgun that it once had made 10s of millions of reliable specimens of the same, then we must not be surprised at what else might appear on retail shelves.

I must be honest. Just because I refuse to buy steel cased ammo, I would most happily shoot other peoples' if they were to decide that they no longer wanted their batch. I would "burn it up" to prove my friendship. However, I would be most picky about what I shot it through.;)

I have a pic somewhere of a 2MOA group of ten rounds of 5.45 Sov surplus shot at a hundred yards with a 4MOA red dot and not using a bag nor bipod. Some of the Eastern bloc stuff is very good.

[Peally]

There’s a lot of hate towards #PoorFags (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=PoorFags) like myself on here :(

I make ~40K a year before taxes. I am the poorfag :cool:

[LittleLebowski]

I make ~40K a year before taxes. I am the poorfag :cool:

You prolly married rich or something then :D

[Kyle Reese]

I have a pic somewhere of a 2MOA group of ten rounds of 5.45 Sov surplus shot at a hundred yards with a 4MOA red dot and not using a bag nor bipod. Some of the Eastern bloc stuff is very good.That was the Defoor carbine class at BW, right?

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[Peally]

You prolly married rich or something then :D

That's a work in progress ;)

[OlongJohnson]

I'd pass on aluminum, as it oxidizes rapidly when exposed to air (and it is clear/translucent), and aluminum oxide is what sandpaper is made out of. That might be me going overboard, but I'd rather reduce the chances if possible.


It's my understanding that abrasives are made from crystalline aluminum oxide which is much harder than the thin amorphous aluminum oxide passivation layer that forms on bare aluminum exposed to oxygen. I may be mistaken, but I think the hardness of amorphous aluminum oxide is essentially the same as aluminum.

My observation of aluminum-case Blazer suggests they are lightly anodized, not left bare to oxidize in the atmosphere. Anodizing eliminates any tendency to gall, and its hardness and chemical inertness tend to reduce friction (as well as wear on the aluminum part). However, it will wear cutting tools quickly. Anodizing is a porous crystalline lattice (typically honeycomb-like in form) grown on the surface of the metal. It's usually ~0.001 +/- thick. So quite a bit more of the material than what forms nearly instantly (essentially invisible) on the surface of the bare metal in air. I try to avoid situations that could lead to chips or flakes of anodized aluminum getting dragged down my barrels. Not that I can point to the damage, I just view it as something to be avoided if doing so is easy. I will use aluminum snap caps in a revolver or a break-action long gun, but not anywhere else.

Frankly, over the past year, I've never seen Blazer aluminum case ammo more than a fraction of a penny per round cheaper than reasonably OK brass case could be had for at the same time.

Back on the thread topic, it was touched on earlier that rifles may have issues due to the laquer on the steel case getting transferred to the chamber and causing sticking. This is a common problem with ARs shooting .223, with its relatively straight-sided case. The 7.62x39 case has more taper, so it's less susceptible to this issue. It may be that pistol rounds just don't make enough heat to cause this problem, as their powder load is on the order of 1/4 to 1/5 that of the above mentioned rounds. Full-size stuff like 7.62x54R might be worse.

[Doug MacRay]

As others have said, HK's and steel-cased ammo don't mix. I found this out the hard way with a box of Tula and a full size USP 45. After half a magazine, one round blew out the side of the casing and seized up the gun. I had to bang the casing loose with a hammer and dowel rod, there was no way I could have cleared the chamber manually (I tried and tried). After I finally got it out of the chamber, I could see that half of the casing was split to the point that I could see daylight through it. I thought this was some freak accident until I hopped on Google and realized that this isn't exactly rare in the USP. So I don't run steel casings through my HK's anymore. I did have one surplus 5.45x39 steel case split at the neck in a Roma AK which just led to a failure-to-cycle and a lot of smoke. Other than that, I've had no problems with steel-cased ammo, and I've run thousands through various other platforms. I trust it for practice, but no way would I ever carry anything steel-cased for daily or duty use (though I'm sure no one else here would either).

[navyman8903]

I don't run steel or aluminum anything in any of my guns period. You get a lot more issues, the sticky melted lacquer deposited throughout your gun, and sometimes, if the ammo is cheap enough, you get a cute blow through where the pressure of the shot makes its way around the primer.....cutting your firing pin channel, jacking up your breach face. My buddies HK USP 45 got messed up that way from running cheap ammo. He had to get a new slide. Running quality brass in everything, not just your premium production guns, gets you quality results. I wouldn't run steel in my beater beretta 92FS centurion I picked up used for $400, or my glocks.

I don't like causing problems for myself. I want my gun to go bang every time. Which includes removing variables.



Also a side story. I purchased as some people know a very heavily used and beaten USP45 in tan. It broke my heart the condition I got the gun in. I bought it off a forum member on another forum, knowing it was rough, but not the D or F grade it was when I got it. It still shot, but it needed a refresh and referb bad. Which I did, and it's an awesome shooter. BUT!!!! When I did the detail strip when installing the match trigger, I took out a massive amount of sticky lacquer and unburnt powder you find with cheap steel cased ammo. It was really really bad. Everywhere throughout the gun. This thing was clearly shot to death and with nothing but cheap stuff. Furthermore when I did the firing pin update to the new style firing pin. The springs and firing pin were caked in carbon and really sticky lacquer coating. It was a mess. the gun taught me a lot, and one of the most glaring lessons was do not use steel cased ammo. It's dirty trash.

[gtae07]

I've probably put 1500 or so of the gray cased Wolf "military classic" .223 through one of my ARs (out of about 2k total). Never had any issues. It's dirty and stinky and maybe not the most accurate but at the time I bought it, it was significantly cheaper than brass cased. I think the polymer coat (or whatever it's called on this) is less susceptible to melting and sticking in the chamber than the green or brown lacquer.

However, I do clean the rifle after each range session. The only trouble I've ever had with it is when using the drop-in .22 conversion kit, but I don't expect perfect reliability with that either.

[03RN]

Do people still harp on the laquer melting causing stuck casings? Because the laquer isn't.

Not to mention that most current steel cased ammo is coated in a polymer, not laquer.

After round 1850 and before round 2000 I got one failure to extract after 1500 rounds of Winchester steel. 400 zqi NATO,
and 50/50 HST/gold dot without cleaning. I'm ok training with steel cased ammo.
23358

[navyman8903]

Do people still harp on the laquer melting causing stuck casings? Because the laquer isn't.

Not to mention that most current steel cased ammo is coated in a polymer, not laquer.

After round 1850 and before round 2000 I got one failure to extract after 1500 rounds of Winchester steel. 400 zqi NATO,
and 50/50 HST/gold dot without cleaning. I'm ok training with steel cased ammo.
23358

Whatever coating it is now, you know what doesn't need it? Brass. I'll openly admit I haven't touched a steel case round in 5 or 6 years. And that USP 45 was caked in clear sticky mess and cheap unburnt powder from steel cased ammo. It was definitely lacquer. It's a non-factor for me, plus with the cost of ammo now a days I'm stocking brass to the roof because of how cheap it is now.

I don't see the need to stress your weapon on running steel cased ammo ever. Because it's $20-40 cheaper a case isn't a good enough excuse for me. If you want to run and train on it that's your call and I'm not faulting you for it. But I don't support it and I won't do it.

[LittleLebowski]

I just can't find stress on the weapon from running steel cased ammo. My 5.45 AR is on its original extractor, close to 30,000 rounds of steel cased and corrosive Sov surplus.

[jeep45238]

I just can't find stress on the weapon from running steel cased ammo. My 5.45 AR is on its original extractor, close to 30,000 rounds of steel cased and corrosive Sov surplus.

Mine only made it to 10k (defective extractor). I’m just shocked you found mags that worked, that drove me out of the 5.45ar market.


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[BobM]

I just can't find stress on the weapon from running steel cased ammo. My 5.45 AR is on its original extractor, close to 30,000 rounds of steel cased and corrosive Sov surplus.

My agency has been going through about 10,000 rounds per year for several years of Hornady steel case training ammo without any issues.

[03RN]

Whatever coating it is now, you know what doesn't need it? Brass. I'll openly admit I haven't touched a steel case round in 5 or 6 years. And that USP 45 was caked in clear sticky mess and cheap unburnt powder from steel cased ammo. It was definitely lacquer. It's a non-factor for me, plus with the cost of ammo now a days I'm stocking brass to the roof because of how cheap it is now.

I don't see the need to stress your weapon on running steel cased ammo ever. Because it's $20-40 cheaper a case isn't a good enough excuse for me. If you want to run and train on it that's your call and I'm not faulting you for it. But I don't support it and I won't do it.

I'm sorry but you cannot get the laquer to melt off a case with by the temps seen in handguns and I'm un aware of any extra stress. Could you elaborate.

[LittleLebowski]

Mine only made it to 10k (defective extractor). I’m just shocked you found mags that worked, that drove me out of the 5.45ar market.


ASC and some C Products. I had to fix or shitcan some of the C Products ones. My 5.45 AR runs like a good Glock Gen3 9mm.

[navyman8903]

I'm sorry but you cannot get the laquer to melt off a case with by the temps seen in handguns and I'm un aware of any extra stress. Could you elaborate.

IT gets deposited throughout the gun somehow. I definitely didn't put it there. If you're firing high volumes then it isn't unlikely it will melt. Guns get hot bud. What other possibilities do you see? Clear sticky stuff is definitely not oil or anything else.


But this safety data sheet says Lacquer begins to soften at 80 degrees C. Which is definitely not out of the realm of possibilities for a firearm, they definitely get hotter than that. It also shouldn't be stored at 50C either as per the data below. I don't know about you, but running drills back to back and intense defensive courses of fire gets the gun pretty hot for me.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1801711.pdf


And again, I don't run the stuff. EVER. Because it's trash and causes pointless issues in your guns. The brass doesn't need to be coated. The clear sticky garbage and cheap powder didn't deposit itself into my gun from running brass or just sitting there.

[LittleLebowski]

The thing I notice most is the red coating on the primers. I will try to remember to yank the BCG on my rarely-cleaned 5.45 AR and post some pictures. Original bolt, aftermarket FailZero carrier that someone gave me. Probably about 15k rounds on the carrier, nearly 30k rounds on the bolt. The only problems I ever had with the ammo was the corrosive primer salts, not the case itself. Before I started reloading (god bless Dillon!), I pretty much only used steel cased ammo in my Glocks (9mm) and my ARs (mainly 5.45 but sometimes 5.56). I documented most of my training classes and never had an ammunition issue except for gas issues with a suppressor on the 5.45. I will say that a factory BCM 11.5" upper runs like clockwork suppressed with a Saker 556 can and a mix of brass and steel cased ammo.

[JonInWA]

While initially wary, I've consistently run Federal Champion aluminum-cased 180 gr .40 through both my P30L and VP40, with absolutely zero issues. My firing sessions generally are between 50-150 rounds in duration, and run the gamut from practice to IDPA.

After each session, I do field-strip and clean them. If the .40 Champion stuff is like the 9mm Champion, it's a bit on the lightly-loaded side; their brass-cased American Eagle is probably spicier.

That said, I do not run steel through my guns. Regarding Tula, the last stuff I ran of theres was in .45 ACP several years ago-It was filthy and had numerous discernable pressure variations within the same 50 round box....

Best, Jon

[Clusterfrack]

...I will say that a factory BCM 11.5" upper runs like clockwork suppressed with a Saker 556 can and a mix of brass and steel cased ammo.

Same here, with SilencerCo Omega. My BCM 11.5 ELW fluted upper works flawlessly suppressed and unsuppressed with every type of ammo I've tried (H1 buffer).