Scatter Gun Ammo

[SmokeJumper]

Ok, question for you guys running a scattergun. I was doing some reading and saw that Winchester has a new defense shotgun load out, the PDX1. It is a standard 1oz lead slug with three 00 buck pellets (from pics they look copper plated) on top of it. The only pictures I saw were a 7 yard spread on paper. Anyone have any experience/opinions on this load?

[MTechnik]

Ok, question for you guys running a scattergun. I was doing some reading and saw that Winchester has a new defense shotgun load out, the PDX1. It is a standard 1oz lead slug with three 00 buck pellets (from pics they look copper plated) on top of it. The only pictures I saw were a 7 yard spread on paper. Anyone have any experience/opinions on this load?

I shot a PDX load out of a .410 a few weeks ago - I think it was three discs and some shot. The grouping was inconsistent. Some times it'd open up 1-1/2, sometimes it'd be one tiny hole on the target 15 yards away.

[David Armstrong]

I checked it out and just couldn't really understand the concept. If you want a slug you want a slug for precision shooting, thus the buck becomes a problem. If you want the buck you want the effect of multiple rounds of buckshot hitting the target at the same time over an expanded area. Thus again only having 3 buckshot becomes a problem. Buck and slug are designed for different problems, and it seems this type of load reduces the effectiveness of the round in each specific problem rather than improving the effectiveness.

[SmokeJumper]

Yeah, I was just looking for anyone's experience. Slugs are meant to be slugs and buck shot is supposed to be just buck shot. I may get a box or two just for kicks to run through the Vang Comp.

[Tim]

It's an update to the old buck and ball loads that were popular with smooth bore muskets from the 16th through the middle part of the 19th Centuries.

The theory being that you might very well miss your target with the round ball, but at least get some secondary hits with the buckshot.

It made sense with the matchlock, flintlock, and smooth bore 69 cal. percussion muskets then in use, especially when infantry lined up in rows and set to murder the opposition at 30 paces.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense in a modern service shotgun load. If you're looking for a "precision shot" or a load to defeat a barrier, get a good slug load that shoots well in your shotgun. If you are wanting a a good buckshot load for the Hammer of Thor lethatility that a shotgun is capable of, I'd recommend the Federal Tactical LE Flite Control 9 pellet 00 buck. It makes your shotgun pattern like a Vang Comp.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I don't like the idea of the Win PDX-1 load.

I've tried Remington Express/Walmart 2.75 inch buck in a M-500 at 15 yards and I liked the spread it gave. About 9 to 10 inches.

I have tried Federal F-127 00 & 000 which gave me about 7 to 9 inches of spread. Aiming at the center of a Q target, it didn't spread beyond the shoulders of the target at 50 feet.

Considering how one of the virtues of a shotgun is spread, I don't want to slug & buck loading. I do not have a greater than 50 foot shot in my house, or from the house to the sidewalk, I'm content with buck.

If I had to reach across the street? Slugs or F-127/LE-132 or 133

At home, the slug would serve no purpose as nothing in my house can protect someone from buckshot at the distances involved, and even wit body armor...a person shot would end up as a potato chip bag - intact ouside, broken up inside. With the Federal 127 00 & 000 at 7 yards the patterns were smaller than the outline of a Q target's head, so decapitating someone is rather possible.

For use across the street, I do not want to endanger people with random projectiles inherent in buckshot.

[DocGKR]

"and even wit body armor...a person shot would end up as a potato chip bag - intact outside, broken up inside."

This is a common myth that is not accurate. There are quite a few folks who have been hit in their soft armor by buckshot yet have not suffered incapacitating injuries and were able to continue functioning without significant deficits...

[DocGKR]

For shotguns, I like Brenneke slugs, as most of the soft lead Foster type slugs are poor penetrators of intermediate barriers. Given Brenneke USA's recent QC issues and the unfortunate unavailability of true Rotweil Brennke loads in the U.S. currently, we are looking forward to trying the new Federal Truball Deep Penetrator (PB127 DPRS) slug load http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/slug.aspx?id=902) as a potential Brenneke replacement.

I am VERY excited about Federal's long delayed decision to finally produce a good tactical #1 Buckshot load using the Flight Control Wad and reduced recoil loading; if done correctly, this will be the premier close range LE and personal defense shotgun load available.

Otherwise, the Federal and Hornady 00 buckshot loads using the Chris Billings designed Choke™ shot spread reducing wad (ie. Flight Control and TAP), work well.

[peterb]

Not a formal test, but illustrates the difference in buckshot patterns with different loads.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot45.htm

[ToddG]

#1 Buckshot load using the Flight Control Wad and reduced recoil loading

DO WANT

[FotoTomas]

I am just singing with the choir here but I am a big believer in buckshot OR slug. Not both in the same shell.

Federal flight control 00buck is my preferred social loadout and the same stuff is issued by the agency I am associated with part time.

[JodyH]

I go against the grain when it comes to shotgun ammo.
I don't like TAP or Flite-Control. I want my shotgun to have some spread.
The big advantage a shotgun has over a carbine is higher hit probability due to multiple projectiles. The TAP and FC loads pretty much negate that advantage.
I consider the shotgun with buckshot a 0-25 yard gun with a switch over to slugs if I want to stretch it out to 75-100 yards.
With that in mind my preferred load is either the Winchester 9-pellet "Military" #00, or Nobel 27-pellet #4 buckshot.
Both are full power loads that are "minute of man" at 25 yards.
At home my Winchester 1300 is loaded with the #4 buck, when traveling I load up with the #00 or just take a carbine instead.
For slugs I like the Brenneke "Black Magic" 1oz. @ 1560fps.

[Tom Givens]

The primary advantage of buckshot is not a widely spread pattern to help you make up for poor marksmanship. That approach inevitably leads to pellets off target, which create whole new problems. The real advantages of buck at typical defensive engagement distances are:

Multiple, almost simultaneous hits. These help hit more vital structures and make more leaks. One shot with buck is like multiple hits with a handgun. The pellets still need to hit fairly close together in order to all be in the vital zone, not just somewhere on a person. Peripheral hits with buck are no more effective than peripheral hits with pistol bullets.

Compressed downrange danger zone compared to a handgun or carbine. Buckshot will only travel about 900 yards at most. That is roughly half the downrange danger zone of a typical pistol bullet or of a slug.

[JodyH]

The primary advantage of buckshot is not a widely spread pattern to help you make up for poor marksmanship. That approach inevitably leads to pellets off target, which create whole new problems.

Buckshot will only travel about 900 yards at most. That is roughly half the downrange danger zone of a typical pistol bullet or of a slug.
A few points.

The added spread enhances hit probability on low percentage shots such as shots under low light on a fast moving target. That's not "making up for poor marksmanship", it's enhancing your hit probability by enlarging your margin of error.

As to missed pellets. Let's take the above scenario of a fast moving target under low light conditions. At 15 yards TAP has a spread of about 4", standard 9 pellet #00 has a spread of approx. 8-10".
With the TAP you're pretty much all pellets on target or all off target, feast or famine rifle like precision. 8 hits on target or 8 misses headed downrange.
With the standard #00 you have a better chance of 2 or 3 stray pellets, but that compares favorably when compared to 8 strays from a complete TAP miss.

I've always thought that if you're going to limit yourself to ultra tight patterns in a shotgun, you might as well use a rifle instead.
Just as good of a fight stopper, easier to manipulate, faster follow up shots, higher capacity, faster reloads, greatly extended range, usually a shorter OAL for better maneuverability, easier to run one-handed, it does pretty much everything better than the shottie once you've limited yourself to TAP like ammo or slugs.
IMO the only reason to use TAP or Flite-Control is if you're LE and are issued a shotgun and only allowed buckshot. Then TAP is your best approximation of a carbine.

I've found that when shooting level, buckshot tends to ground out around 125-150 yards beyond the target so I'm not going to panic over the possibility of a few stray pellets. It sucks and yes every miss has a lawyer attached but the evidence just isn't out there that missed shots from law enforcement and civilian defensive gun use is the bloodbath everyone tries to make it out to be.

[DocGKR]

Unless you are at an agency that has had an officer killed due to a 00 buckshot pellet that missed the target and went down range approx 60+ yards and killed an officer in a blocking position, then they take those stray buckshot pellets pretty seriously...

[Tom Givens]

The carbine is not equal to a shotgun in close range damage. Many top tier carbine instructors now teach a 5-7 round burst at close quarters to make up for the lackluster effect of 1 ball round on determined targets. It takes longer to fire 5-7 rounds from a carbine than to fire 8-9 pellets of 00 in one shot. If you fire 5-7 rounds from your carbine per target, it effectively holds no more ammo than a 5-6 round shotgun.

I am personally familiar with 3 shootings in this area where 1 stray pellet of 00 per incident killed a bystander, crippled a police officer, and killed a deputy sheriff in three shootings. That's just in this metro area. That's why we are somewhat concerned about large patterns.

An AR with 16" barrel is exactly 3" shorter overall than my 13" LOP, 18" 870. That does not really compromise maneuverability. Certainly, without question, the AR is better suited to the modern battlefield than a shotgun, if for no other reasons than ammo load-out and ability to reach to 200 meters. That does not mean the AR is better for many civil US police or private citizen defensive shootings.

[JodyH]

Unless you are at an agency that has had an officer killed due to a 00 buckshot pellet that missed the target and went down range approx 60+ yards and killed an officer in a blocking position, then they take those stray buckshot pellets pretty seriously...
Like I posted, TAP has a greater possibility of all 8 pellets missing.
Shit happens, and one of the four rules is know your target and what's beyond your target.

[JodyH]

The carbine is not equal to a shotgun in close range damage. Many top tier carbine instructors now teach a 5-7 round burst at close quarters to make up for the lackluster effect of 1 ball round on determined targets.
That's ammo and caliber dependent.
It's also making the assumption that 100% of your shotgun pellets are on target.

I don't like a set round count burst, my plan is if they are still in my sights, they need more trigger presses.

I don't plan on changing anyone's mind about the role of the shotgun.
I'm just laying out the reasons I choose the load I do and what I see the shotgun's advantages to be.
:cool:

[ToddG]

Maybe if we look at this from a little different angle, there won't be as much disagreement.

Let's suppose I offered you two pistols:

Shoots 4" groups in your hands at 25yd.
Shoots 12" groups in your hands at 25yd.


Would you choose #2 because it will give you more spread when you fire 4-6 rounds at a threat?

I'm certainly no expert on shotguns. While I've taken a few classes, I wouldn't step up and teach it... that would be ridiculous. But there have been enough instances of inadvertent downrange injuries & deaths -- DocGKR and Tom gave us four already -- that I'd prefer having all my rounds go where I aim them. At that point, it's on me to aim them properly. That seems like a better proposal to me than being fairly certain that no matter what I do, some of my pellets are going somewhere unintended.

You'll get no argument from me that being aware of the downrange area is important. But I'd just rather be the one in control of the little lead balls than leaving it to fate.

[JodyH]

Maybe if we look at this from a little different angle, there won't be as much disagreement.

Let's suppose I offered you two pistols:

Shoots 4" groups in your hands at 25yd.
Shoots 12" groups in your hands at 25yd.


Would you choose #2 because it will give you more spread when you fire 4-6 rounds at a threat?
Not the same.
Your example has the 4-6 rounds spread out over more than a second.
The shotgun is firing all pellets simultaneously.

What's more effective on a low percentage fast moving target... like a bird... a shotgun or a semi-auto rifle.

[JodyH]

I'm certainly no expert on shotguns. While I've taken a few classes, I wouldn't step up and teach it... that would be ridiculous. But there have been enough instances of inadvertent downrange injuries & deaths -- DocGKR and Tom gave us four already --
Considering the low hit percentages involved in LE shootings, the number of downrange injuries and deaths is statistically minute.

[ToddG]

Not the same.
Your example has the 4-6 rounds spread out over more than a second.
The shotgun is firing all pellets simultaneously.

That's fair. But your reasoning is about hit percentages, not time. Given the spread of the #2 pistol, it, too, would be more likely to land some hits and some misses in anyone's hands given a difficult shot whereas the accurate gun will put the bullets where I aim them... for better or worse.


What's more effective on a low percentage fast moving target... like a bird... a shotgun or a semi-auto rifle.

How about a low percentage fast moving dangerous target? Not a lot of folks choosing birdshot for lion and cape buffalo.

[JodyH]

How about a low percentage fast moving dangerous target? Not a lot of folks choosing birdshot for lion and cape buffalo.
That's due to the limitations of the caliber (not enough penetration), not accuracy limitations.
:cool:

[JodyH]

That's fair. But your reasoning is about hit percentages, not time. Given the spread of the #2 pistol, it, too, would be more likely to land some hits and some misses in anyone's hands given a difficult shot whereas the accurate gun will put the bullets where I aim them... for better or worse.
You have 1 second to make a hit on a 6" plate at 20 yards from low ready.
Would you rather have a pistol or a shotgun?
Would you rather that shotgun have a 9-pellet 4" pattern or a 8" pattern?

The hypothetical scenarios pro and con are endless.
The main thing is to know your gun and know the reasons why you have it set up the way you do, both the limitations and advantages.
I'm comfortable with my shotgun set up and loaded the way it is based on the role I intend for it to fill.

[ToddG]

You have 1 second to make a hit on a 6" plate at 20 yards from low ready.
Would you rather have a pistol or a shotgun?
Would you rather that shotgun have a 9-pellet 4" pattern or a 8" pattern?

If putting enough lead on steel to knock over a plate is my only goal, and I'm shooting into a berm with zero downrange concerns, then it depends on how heavy the plate is. If it will fall to a single pellet, I want a spread. If it needs 6+ pellets to be effective, I want a tight pattern.

How many pellets does it take to stop a motivated threat? No way of knowing, but I'd rather have more than less hit the target.


The hypothetical scenarios pro and con are endless.
The main thing is to know your gun and know the reasons why you have it set up the way you do, both the limitations and advantages.

Agreed.

[FotoTomas]

I like my Federal Flight control BUT Jody makes some good points as well.

In my case deploying a shotgun will be either home defense or a rare appearance on duty at the part time job. (Competition is mostly birdshot and slugs) Being accurate at the part time job on the street is more my style. On the other hand the close range options at home based on my fields of fire might make me reconsider the Remington and Winchester buckshot in the locker that about doubles the size of the Federal patterns. I can easily see differing loadouts for the job at hand.

HD vs LE has some distinct differences worth evaluating in more depth.

Sounds like a trip to the range is in order! :)

[David Armstrong]

How about a low percentage fast moving dangerous target? Not a lot of folks choosing birdshot for lion and cape buffalo.
FWIW, when I was over there the gun/load of choice for going into the brush after leopard was a 12 gauge with 00 Buck.

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=DocGKR;5755]I am VERY excited about Federal's long delayed decision to finally produce a good tactical #1 Buckshot load using the Flight Control Wad and reduced recoil loading; if done correctly, this will be the premier close range LE and personal defense shotgun load available.QUOTE]

Chock full of WIN - I prefered to use #1 before the advent of reduced recoil loads. I will cheerfully return to it ASAP. It's just a case of spacial geometry that you can fill a 12 ga hull more efficiently with .30 balls than .33 balls

[Chuck Haggard]

I actually like the pattern density of the Flightcontrol loads.

Many of the fleeting targets one might get in a running gunfight include hands, elbows and feet sticking out from cover. Being able to pepper the shit out of those opportunities is a good thing.

With an unobstructed target, and a quality hit, a tight pattern keeps all of the pellets near each other for max effect.

[jmjames]

Trying to not start a new thread on the topic... mods, feel free to split if it should be a new thread though...

For HD purposes, should I be using slugs or buckshot? Or a mix in the mag?

Does anyone have any data on the new Federal LE slugs, if slugs are the right load for HD?

Right now, it looks like the right load is Federal LE #1.

Thanks!

J.Ja

[Al T.]

IMHO, buckshot. Where I live, slugs have too much of a downrange hazard. Strongly suspect that my house will not contain a slug, probably will contain #4 buckshot. My first load is Remington Home Defense BB shot due to compressed nature of my neighborhood.

[DocGKR]

Until recently, the 12 gauge shotgun has remained the universally accepted shoulder fired weapon for United States law enforcement general purpose use. While law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns are typically loaded with #00 Buckshot and offer outstanding incapacitation potential and increased hit potential against moving targets at close range (no more than 15 to 25 yard), the shotgun is not an ideal general purpose weapon due to its short effective range, imprecise accuracy, downrange hazard to bystanders, small ammunition capacity, slow reloading, and harsh recoil. Recognition of the shotgun’s significant limitations as a general purpose weapon have prompted many American law enforcement agencies to adopt the more versatile semi-automatic carbine for general purpose use.

Yet despite their limitations, shotguns are still found in the majority of patrol cars in the United States and still have a valid role for law enforcement use, especially in close quarters combat (CQB) and to deliver specialized munitions (breaching, chemical, less lethal impact and electronic). A basic shotgun weapon system is already in place for most departments and the 12 gauge shotgun is one of the most cost effective weapons to obtain and operate.

Law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns using buckshot of #1 or larger size offer greater close range physiological incapacitation potential than virtually any other commonly used shoulder fired weapon-- this can be a significant advantage during urban entry missions and high risk warrant service in closely confined settings. Should the need arise to stop fast moving targets at close range, like aggressive dogs that could not be deterred through less lethal alternatives, 12 gauge buckshot of #1 shot or larger is the optimal ammunition choice. Keep in mind that buckshot, especially frangible types such as Hevishot, have less ricochet risk than shotgun slugs, as well as handgun and rifle projectiles when fired at objects close to the ground, such as charging dogs. In congested urban settings, buckshot is less likely to pose as high a downrange hazard as slugs in the event a missed shot exits a structure wall. Birdshot offers inadequate penetration and intermediate barrier capability and has no place for LE use.

On the other hand, slugs offer several advantages in other settings, including greater range when in open areas, more precise accuracy and control of projectiles, and in more rural settings if larger animals like cattle are critically injured and need to be rapidly euthanized in the field, shotgun slugs are an optimal choice. Shotguns loaded with good quality deep penetrating slugs like Brenneke or the Federal Truball Deep Penetrator (PB127 DPRS) are able to defeat intermediate barriers better than handguns, SMG’s, handgun caliber carbines, & . 223/5.56mm carbines--this particularly includes defeating laminated automobile and transit vehicle windshields. They are also the best option for defense against large U.S. predators like brown bears.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/fileadmin/BrennekeUSA/Law_enforcement/user_upload/Produkte/THD_car_door.jpg
Brenneke THD slug through 2 x 20 ga steel per FBI protocol

The new Federal (PB127 DPRS) Truball Deep Penetrator 1 oz slug load @ 1350 fps (http://www.federalpremium.com/...ils/slug.aspx?id=902 (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/slug.aspx?id=902)) penetrated 24" of gel after first defeating an automobile windshield, with no deviation from trajectory and outstanding weight retention. Accuracy is excellent out to at least 100 yds. It is the first slug to be prove an alternative to the Brenneke.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/fileadmin/BrennekeUSA/Law_enforcement/user_upload/Produkte/THD_03.jpg http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/fileadmin/BrennekeUSA/Law_enforcement/user_upload/Produkte/THD_04.jpg
Brenneke Tactical Home Defense

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/fileadmin/BrennekeUSA/Law_enforcement/user_upload/Produkte/L_Classic_Magnum_03.jpg http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/fileadmin/BrennekeUSA/Law_enforcement/user_upload/Produkte/L_Classic_Magnum_04.jpg
Brenneke Classic Magnum

Note that while traditional Foster type slugs can be very effective against unobstructed soft targets, they tend to break apart and often fail to offer adequate penetration against intermediate barriers and tougher animals. Since slugs are typically selected with the goal of successfully penetrating something--often times intermediate barriers or large dangerous animals, Foster type slugs are NOT generally the best option for LE use.

The new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes. In bare gel, all 15 of the 30 caliber plated pellets penetrate in the 14-18 inch range. Below are patterning shots at 7 and 25 yards fired out of a generic 18" 870P:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7627&filename=Fed%201%20buck%207%20yds.jpg http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7628&filename=Fed%201%20buck%2025yds.jpg

Through an automobile windshield at 3 meters, 2 badly deformed pellets were noted at 5", 3 pellets were at 8-9", while the remaining 10 pellets were found at 12.5-15"--not bad for a buckshot load. Keep in mind that slugs are the preferred option when engaging threats inside vehicles.

In bare gel when shot from 3 meters, we again saw penetration of all the pellets from 14-18", as noted in the photo below:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7653&filename=Fed%20#1%20buckshot%20BG.jpg

[jmjames]

Doc -

Thanks! That is the exact information I was hoping to get! Shooting through steel or auto glass, is not something I will need to be doing in home defense, and I certainly won't be taking blind shots through sheetrock. I'll be ordering the #1 buck, I know my local LE dealer has the #00, but they don't carry the #1. :(

If anyone knows some good sources of that, I'm all ears. I've found the #00 easily enough.

J.Ja

[peterb]

http://www.ammoman.com/p/297/12-gauge-1-buck-by-federal

The #1 is a new product and not yet in wide distribution.

[jmjames]

http://www.ammoman.com/p/297/12-gauge-1-buck-by-federal

The #1 is a new product and not yet in wide distribution.

Good find, thanks! Not sure if I can swing a whole case of it (anyone want to go half-and-half with me on one?), I may just grab the #00 until individual boxes are more available. Or perhaps the local LE shop could put in an order for me?

Thanks again!

J.Ja

[DocGKR]

A police officer I know in Indiana recently patterned the outstanding new Federal #1 buckshot Flight Control load (LE132-1B); below are his comments:


"I patterned my 11-87P 18" improved cylinder with the new #1 Federal buckshot, here were the results:

5 yards in the head, 10 yards center mass:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_5to10.jpg

15 yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_15.jpg

20 yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_20.jpg

25 yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_25.jpg

30 yards:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Federal1Buck_11-87/Federal1Buck_30.jpg

As you can see, a hostage head shot is very possible with this load at 5 yards as the pattern (if you can call it that) is still one hole and exactly at point of aim. At 10 yards all pellets were still in the X-ring, at 15 yards all pellets were still in the 9 ring, at 20 yards only one pellet was out to the 8 ring with the rest still in the 9 ring, at 25 yards there was one pellet in the 7 ring, one in the 8 ring, and the rest were in the 9 ring, and at 30 yards all pellets were still in the 8 ring except one that was high just above the 7 (but my whole pattern was high, probably my fault).

Needless to say, this stuff patterns very well out of my gun and I had no cycling issues, though I've only gone through 10 rounds so far. I did prove, with a shot timer, that I can put 4 rounds of this into the center of a silhouette target in under 2 seconds (1.91 to be exact) at 15 yards from the low ready.

60 pellets into one target in under 2 seconds ought to do the trick for home defense, especially since it was at least 5 yards farther than I'm ever going to shoot in my home. And people wonder why I like shotguns for close work..."

[jmjames]

Doc -

I should have used a fresh target and taken a picture... a few weeks ago I threw a few rounds of the Federal LE #00 through a 19" barrel with an improved cylinder choke at *50 yards* and the pattern would have been well contained by the rings of a B-27. I then pushed it out to *100 yards* (same barrel) with an Aimpoint, shooting at a 12" circle, and I got a number of hits (don't recall off hand, again, my apologies for not recording the data better).

Next time I get out to the range, I'll do it again with the #00 and get you pictures and better data, and the #1 if I can get a hold of any by then (I can only seem to find it by the case at the moment). I will also try to do the same with some of the new Federal LE slugs you mentioned.

I am very impressed with the performance of the Federal LE loads. The one fly in the ointment was that it did not cycle the shotgun (Saiga 12) on the tightest gas valve setting that I was also using for slugs, I had to open it up a touch for cycling (about half way), but the recoil was really mild. I wish I had bought more than 1 box.

J.Ja