The 5×5 Classifier ( Abbreviated)

[Wendell]

http://www.idpa.tech/the-5x5-classifier-abbreviated/ :)

[Wendell]

IDPA would like to address some confusion regarding the IDPA.tech website. IDPA.tech was designed as a test site for IDPA rules, notifications and continuing education. Items found there are subject to change and may or may not become rules, clarifications or official communications. Nothing found at IDPA.tech should be viewed as official. The inclusion of the IDPA.tech website on the rule book update in the last Tactical Brief was in error and we regret any confusion it may have caused. There will be official announcements on a number of items, including Carry Optics, in the near future. We appreciate your patience until that time. Per our prior notifications to the membership, all official rules and communications will only be found only on the IDPA.com website and distributed by the IDPA electronic weekly newsletter, Tactical Brief, and on the only official IDPA facebook page.
(http://multibriefs.com/briefs/IDPA/IDPA011718.php)http://multibriefs.com/briefs/IDPA/IDPA011718.php

[JHC]

This 5x5 is one of my favorite tests.

[Clusterfrack]

So... the 5x5 will replace or be equivalent to the regular IDPA classifier for purposes of classification?

[JSGlock34]

IDPA could really do a better job of communicating. Perhaps they could start with updating their website? It has a "Latest News" link, the "Down Zero Blog", and the "Tactical Journal" (not to be confused with the "Tactical Brief"), links to their Facebook and Twitter presence, and pages that apparently haven't been updated since 2015 ("JW Chronicles", "Message from IDPA", "Industry News")...but an email with the subject line of "Getting out of a jam" is the source of info on the tech website...

Meanwhile the local club has been collecting Carry Optics data from members and has the 5x5 classifier listed as part of their next match...

[JHC]

So... the 5x5 will replace or be equivalent to the regular IDPA classifier for purposes of classification?

Wow, a lot faster/easier to administer if that's the case.

[jlw]

If the 5x5 were to become the classifier, it should be included as a stage in every sanctioned match with the resulting classification being the classification for that match if it results in a higher classification or if a shooter was previously unclassified.

[cheby]

So no support hand shooting, target transitions, no turn, no movement of any kind... yeah looks like it could be a good IDPA classifier. :-)

[That Guy]

So... the 5x5 will replace or be equivalent to the regular IDPA classifier for purposes of classification?http://multibriefs.com/briefs/IDPA/IDPA011718.php

I doubt it.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[Gio]

Wow, a lot faster/easier to administer if that's the case.

Yes, but the problem with the 5x5 is it doesn't test all of the skills that in my opinion are important to IDPA match performance, primarily target transitions. It's also short enough that you can swing for the fences and zero/hero it pretty easily, similar to how a lot of people shoot USPSA classifiers. The standard IDPA classifier is too long to be able to successfully zero/hero the whole thing. Likewise, USPSA classifiers have hit factors that are often extremely high (some of them artificially increased to account for the zero/hero strategy) and are still tough to do well on shooting that way, where as the par times for the 5x5 (and the standard IDPA classifier) are more of a match pace standard.

One of my complaints about the IDPA classification system when I shot that sport was they handed out match bumps to master way too often at any level 2 match. Most of the local M class shooters I knew couldn't even come close to hitting an M class time on the actual classifier. I believe this is part of the source of the belief that IDPA M = USPSA B. In my experience, if someone can truly hit a M score on the IDPA classifier they are probably more of a USPSA upper A/low M shooter.

I think they should also do some more research on the par times they are designating to correlate to various classifications. I shot it at the range a couple weekends ago and ended up with a 12.07 raw (-3) and a 13.59 raw (-1) time in the two runs I attempted. I had shot it in the past when Bill Wilson first posted it here in the upper 12/low 13 second range clean. 20 seconds for M seems like a really generous time hack on such a short drill.

[Clusterfrack]

Gio--I was just typing a similar post when yours came in. Completely agree.

I haven't shot IDPA for years, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But...research before making rule changes? That doesn't seem to be the way they roll in IDPA.

[Wendell]

So... the 5x5 will replace or be equivalent to the regular IDPA classifier for purposes of classification?

That was my hope, when I first got the link from our area coordinator. Since then, IDPA issued the 'clarification' that the .tech site isn't to be "...viewed as official."

I still hope it will.

[GJM]

While it certainly is easy to administer, it tests a fairly narrow range of skills — good draw and the ability to shoot one target at close range. Thresholds are very generous.

[jlw]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180119/a50c07ca37b81603a900431d9fff52e1.jpg

And then IDPA posts this...

[JSGlock34]

The 5x5 reminds me of using the FAST for the KSTG classifier.

[DAB]

i came across this drill last year, and tried running it a few times for practice (way before it was announced as a possible classifier replacement), and if i recall, those runs would have bumped me into EX. might try it again next time i'm at the range, now that they have settled on times.

[jlw]

I've only shot the 5x5 once. My time was a 16.24 or thereabouts. I haven't shot an actual IDPA match since 2014. I used to be right on the EX/MA line on the classifier, but I never played the game that well.

[ST911]

While it certainly is easy to administer, it tests a fairly narrow range of skills — good draw and the ability to shoot one target at close range. Thresholds are very generous.

I think it's valid enough for a snapshot, but shouldn't replace the larger established classifier. If used as a substitute, appropriate only at the local club level.

[HopetonBrown]

If this is indeed the only thing needed to be shot to classify then that's kinda dumb.

[Wendell]

This is on the website now:


Important Classifier Information (http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2018/01/18/Important-Classifier-Information.aspx)
by Administrator (http://www.idpa.com/blog/author/Admin.aspx) 18. January 2018 16:13
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(http://idpa.com/blog/syndication.axd) 5X5 Classifier
A new 5X5 classifier will be posted on the official IDPA website. Information describing the purpose of this classifier will be included. Although you may begin using that classifier, the ability to upload the results are not yet ready. You will receive official notice from HQ when that functionality is in place.



Uploading match scores

We have had questions regarding the uploading of match score for both PCC and the new 5x5 classifier. Please be advised that our IT vendor is working on this and when it is available, which should be very soon, you will receive notice from IDPA HQ.




<http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2018/01/18/Important-Classifier-Information.aspx>

[Peally]

I looked at it today. As a single part of an overall classifier I think it's fine and looks basic and fun, but as the sole test to determine someone's level it tests a very narrow set of abilities and is not representative of a shooter's overall ability in pistol competition.

Also, the times listed need to be overhauled but that is a whole different can of worms regarding what IDPA defines as a "master" level shooter (assuming no misses you can make it with a lethargic 2 second draw and .4 splits here). They get the benefit of the doubt on that though since it's obviously just a theoretical test at this point.

[JSGlock34]

Interesting that the scores haven't changed from when this drill was created despite IDPA going to 1 point = 1 second down.

[JSGlock34]

Interesting that the scores haven't changed from when this drill was created despite IDPA going to 1 point = 1 second down.

Not to quote myself but this article addresses the change to -1 and the use of the 5x5 drill as a Classifier.

The story behind the 5x5 Classifier (http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/idpa/5x5Classifier.pdf)

[jlw]

I'm happy to see that it can be imbedded into a match to classify shooters. When I first started shooting IDPA, it was frustrating trying to find a classifier.

[JSGlock34]

I'm happy to see that it can be imbedded into a match to classify shooters. When I first started shooting IDPA, it was frustrating trying to find a classifier.

+1

I shot for years before I managed to find a local classifier match.

[Gio]

If only IDPA would allow unclassified members to shoot Level 2 matches or above like another popular shooting sport...

[Wendell]

+1
I shot for years before I managed to find a local classifier match.

x3

I shot two state matches and a 'world' match before ever shooting a classifier.


The story behind the 5x5 Classifier (http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/idpa/5x5Classifier.pdf)


IDPA will support all three classifiers for members starting in January 2018.

http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/idpa/5x5Classifier.pdf (http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/idpa/5x5Classifier.pdf)


With the 'abbreviated' 5x5 classifier, problems getting classified will become a thing of the past.

[Amp]

As a match director I like it for this reason:

Every year at IDPA, every match director can count on the fact there will be
competitors registered for their match needing to shoot a quick classifier so they
are eligible to compete at a sanctioned event. This is often imposed on the MD as
if it was their problem to solve and it was an imposition on clubs and MD’s to
accommodate these shooters. Setting up the 3 stage classifier and running a small
number of shooters often caused problems when clubs did not have this on their
calendar.

The 5x5 will be quick to set up and could even be a stage in the match.

[DAB]

as noted in the explanation of the 5x5, they split it up and made it into 2 stages at a Tier 4 match. not to classify shooters, but to obtain data for setting the times. but now, you could do likewise at a sanctioned match, and make it so that in addition to shooting the match, you also get a current classifier score, with the possibility of a bump either way. either by winning your division, or by shooting the classifier stages well enough to get a bump. that will smoke out those who have been sandbagging for years. i like it. and as others have noted, way easier to set up and run as part of a local match, or a special one off classifier.

[jlw]

I shot it tonight at a local club.

I never have to classify again.

[That Guy]

I shot it tonight at a local club.

I never have to classify again.I was kind of wondering how much the short format skews results... I already jumped one level switching from the 90 round classifier to the 72 round one.

What was your classification before?

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[jlw]

I was kind of wondering how much the short format skews results... I already jumped one level switching from the 90 round classifier to the 72 round one.

What was your classification before?

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

I was previously an EX. I sniffed MA a couple of times on the original classifier, but I quit actively shooting IDPA in 2014.

Funny thing, I really feel no sense of accomplishment with this.

[DAB]

i hope to join the "no more shooting classifier club" some day.

congrats!

and yet, you read over and over that "shooting a pistol is a highly perishable skill", and that you must continually practice and train and attend classes.....

[jlw]

i hope to join the "no more shooting classifier club" some day.

congrats!

and yet, you read over and over that "shooting a pistol is a highly perishable skill", and that you must continually practice and train and attend classes.....

I do train and attend/teach classes. I just quit shooting IDPA. ;)

I actually shoot more now and with more structure than I did when I was a "competition shooter".

[ST911]

I actually shoot more now and with more structure than I did when I was a "competition shooter".

Say more about that.

[jlw]

Say more about that.

I went to the police academy in 1999. I qualified but struggled. Long about 2001, an instructor by the name of Sam Conway finally instructed me instead of repeating "stop jerking the trigger" while walking back and forth down a line of shooters. I immediately became a high 90s shooter on the state qual course. In 2003, my agency sent to me firearms instructor school. I routinely was in the top three shooters at any cop class I attended, and I was a firearms instructor; I had the t-shirt.

In 2009ish, a friend who worked for Glock convinced me to shoot in a GSSF match, and that opened the door to IDPA. After getting smoked by some cube farm types in my first couple of matches, I rapidly made EX but plateaued, and still got smoked by cube farm types.
VolGrad used to attend open enrollment classes. I never would go as I could go to the state training center for free and the open enrollment classes costs as much as a new pistol.

One day somebody, maybe VolGrad, sent me a link to something written by some guy named TLG. From there I found Pistol Forum in its infancy. I began to study the backgrounds of the SMEs to see how they got to be SMEs. I noticed certain training classes that were common in their backgrounds. I learned that you could get slots in classes by hosting them.

Enter 2014, I hosted Tom Givens for CP1 as my first open enrollment class. Later that month in the same week I attended Rogers all week (the class in which Gabe and Manny did their thing) and a Hackathorn class that weekend.

I was hooked.

In late 2014, the local IDPA scene went nuts due to the GADPA/IDPA feud and some other things. Dealing with drama all day at work, having my hobby become a drama den became uninteresting.

I quit shooting matches and started attending more classes. It also helped that I had a boss that said I could go to any shooting schools that I wanted to attend so long as I brought what I learned back to the agency. Ultimately, Tom Givens let me start assisting with classes, and I was able to start working the other agency instructors through classes. 100% of our instructor cadre are Rangemaster alumni. Now we're working the line level guys through classes as rewards for good work.

It turns out that if you spend a weekend with a competent instructor shooting 1000 rounds and then practicing what you learned, you'll reach a higher level of skill and consistency that you don't achieve if you shoot a 100 or so rounds at a match every month.

Eventually, I opened my own company as a way to pay for more training.

[ST911]

It turns out that if you spend a weekend with a competent instructor shooting 1000 rounds and then practicing what you learned, you'll reach a higher level of skill and consistency that you don't achieve if you shoot a 100 or so rounds at a match every month.

Agreed. Thanks for elaborating.

[jlw]

And another thread rebirth!!

I shot a club match earlier this month. It was the first match I shot since the match mentioned earlier in this thread in which I shot the 5x5 and bumped to MA.

Back then my profile showed me as MA in all of the pistol divisions. It appears that my score was uploaded for the CCP division. With a revision in the rules, IDPA has dropped me to EX in everything by CCP. Even more amusing (or confounding) is that the times for the 5x5 have been revised, and the score that bumped me to MA would now be an EX score.

As it has been several years since the 5x5 was discussed, what has been the experience over time with classifiers from it as they relate to actual match performance.

------

In the recent club match, I shot in CO. The RDS-pistol thing is completely new to me. I beat two MA classified shooters but was well behind an EX classified shooter who is MA in the other pistol divisions.

[GyroF-16]

And another thread rebirth!!

I shot a club match earlier this month. It was the first match I shot since the match mentioned earlier in this thread in which I shot the 5x5 and bumped to MA.

Back then my profile showed me as MA in all of the pistol divisions. It appears that my score was uploaded for the CCP division. With a revision in the rules, IDPA has dropped me to EX in everything by CCP. Even more amusing (or confounding) is that the times for the 5x5 have been revised, and the score that bumped me to MA would now be an EX score.

As it has been several years since the 5x5 was discussed, what has been the experience over time with classifiers from it as they relate to actual match performance.

------

In the recent club match, I shot in CO. The RDS-pistol thing is completely new to me. I beat two MA classified shooters but was well behind an EX classified shooter who is MA in the other pistol divisions.

I have found very little correlation between shooting MA on the 5 x 5 and performance in matches.
A couple of years ago, I started doing a lot of training on my own and took a Langdon class, among others. I got much better at recoil control and tracking the sights. Then, a few months later, shot a 5 x 5 for record, and classified MA in CCP, and shot an EX score with SSP.
With the rules at the time, I then was rated as a MA in all semiauto pistol divisions.
So I shot the state match and the regional match as SSP MA, and, frankly, got my ass handed to me. And the next year, and this year, too. Even with the rule change, it appears that having shot several high-level matches as a MA in SSP, I’m stuck there, despite having never shot MA on a classifier in SSP.

I think that the 5 x 5 is a decent assessment of draw-to-first-shot time, split time, and accuracy with quick split times.
It cannot, and does not, take any match tactics into account. Furthermore, in my experience, the stages that separate the men from the boys in my region involve rapidly transitioning to targets that move or disappear, and engaging them very quickly with acceptable accuracy. This is where I routinely get left in the dust.

With the benefit of hindsight, the best way to compete in the class where you are actually competitive is to not work too hard during classifiers, and instead work on match tactics and rapid target acquisition. When you’ve earned it, you’ll move up in classification through a match bump. (Not aimed at you, jlw - more general advice I’d give to a shooter with aspirations that I was mentoring.)

I suppose that the 5 x 5 has its place for roughly placing a shooter that’s brand new to IDPA (but not necessarily to competitive shooting). But in my humble opinion, a shooter shouldn’t be able to classify above EX except in the full classifier or via a match bump.

[jlw]

With the benefit of hindsight, the best way to compete in the class where you are actually competitive is to not work too hard during classifiers, and instead work on match tactics and rapid target acquisition. When you’ve earned it, you’ll move up in classification through a match bump. (Not aimed at you, @jlw (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=136) - more general advice I’d give to a shooter with aspirations that I was mentoring.)

Likewise, not aimed at you, but I don't understand the position by many that match bumps are the only legit way to move up when one of the criticisms of IDPA is that it is too easy to get match bumps. There's even posts here on PF about people being MA shooters who can't shoot MA level classifiers.

[Jeff22]

I think the 5x5 classifier is a nice skill drill to shoot once in a while.

I prefer the 90 or 72 round versions of the IDPA classifier as a more comprehensive measure of skills.

I really like to shoot USPSA special classifier matches. Regular club matches don't interest me that much any more, but I really enjoy shooting classifiers. Shooting classifiers is like dating; l love them but they don't usually love me back.