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WobblyPossum
01-13-2018, 09:27 AM
I saw this on another forum and I’m curious about it. It looks like a regular 11.5” AR except with a Binary Trigger. Apparently the ATF has declared it’s not an NFA item due to some “loophole.” I don’t get it. What am I not seeing? I have a layman’s familiarity with the definitions of rifle, pistol and firearm.
https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2018/01/11/new-franklin-armory-reformation-line-looks-like-sbr-doesnt-need-tax-stamp/


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Sherman A. House DDS
01-13-2018, 09:51 AM
I saw this on another forum and I’m curious about it. It looks like a regular 11.5” AR except with a Binary Trigger. Apparently the ATF has declared it’s not an NFA item due to some “loophole.” I don’t get it. What am I not seeing? I have a layman’s familiarity with the definitions of rifle, pistol and firearm.
https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2018/01/11/new-franklin-armory-reformation-line-looks-like-sbr-doesnt-need-tax-stamp/


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It’s a smoothbore, i.e. not rifled. And therefore not subject to the NFA. That’s my guess. Modern musket.


civiliandefender.com

ragnar_d
01-13-2018, 10:07 AM
It’s a smoothbore, i.e. not rifled. And therefore not subject to the NFA. That’s my guess. Modern musket.


civiliandefender.com

Franklin Armory commented to Soldier Systems that it wasn't a smoothbore, but wouldn't elaborate further until range day at SHOT:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180113/be29522849f4fff29df859b5a71ee5ce.jpg
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/01/11/franklin-armory-announces-reformation-11-5-barrel-w-conventional-stock-no-tax-stamp/


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5pins
01-13-2018, 10:13 AM
I think I figured it out. Let's say instead of a round hole they "drill" a hexagonal hole just under the bullet diameter, maybe .222 inches.

Then twist the barrel to give it a spin. It's a smooth barrel, not rifled, but will impart a spin to stabilize the bullet.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Regular_hexagon.svg/600px-Regular_hexagon.svg.png

Tokarev
01-13-2018, 10:28 AM
I think I figured it out. Let's say instead of a round hole they "drill" a hexagonal hole just under the bullet diameter, maybe .222 inches.

Then twist the barrel to give it a spin. It's a smooth barrel, not rifled, but will impart a spin to stabilize the bullet.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Regular_hexagon.svg/600px-Regular_hexagon.svg.pngIf that's right they've found a nifty loophole and one that will quickly be copied by every barrel maker on the planet.

Will ATF then redefine what "rifling" is?

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Chemsoldier
01-13-2018, 10:57 AM
If it's smooth bore, isn't it a shotgun and therefore an SBS and NFA?

WobblyPossum
01-13-2018, 11:15 AM
I think we can rule out smoothbore if Franklin Armory already said it’s not a smoothbore. The hexagon barrel idea is pretty cool if true. I’ve also heard some guesses that it has to do with overall length but that doesn’t make sense to me. Overall length shouldn’t matter when defining a rifle. It is meant to be fired from the shoulder based in the fact that it has a stock. It uses standard ammo and the barrel is rifled. Maybe it’s got something to do with the binary trigger? If it fires once on trigger pull and once in reset it doesn’t fire once per trigger pull like a rifle but it also isn’t a machine gun.


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joshs
01-13-2018, 11:30 AM
If it's smooth bore, isn't it a shotgun and therefore an SBS and NFA?

Yes. I think the most likely theory has to do with the “rifle” definition specifically using “pull” to define trigger activation rather than “function.” It likely uses Franklin Armory’s existing binary technology.

LittleLebowski
01-13-2018, 11:30 AM
Rumor has it that it is something to do with the trigger.

5pins
01-13-2018, 11:42 AM
If it's smooth bore, isn't it a shotgun and therefore an SBS and NFA?

I'm not sure, a shotgun is defined as a firing a fixed "shotgun shell" but a rifle is defined as firing a "fixed cartridge".

If I'm doing my mental gymnastics correctly It's not a rifle because it doesn't have a rifled barrel, it's not a shotgun because it doesn't fire a shotgun shell, and it's not a pistol because it has an overall length of over 26 inches and it's not meant to be concealed.

5pins
01-13-2018, 11:54 AM
I think we can rule out smoothbore if Franklin Armory already said it’s not a smoothbore. The hexagon barrel idea is pretty cool if true. I’ve also heard some guesses that it has to do with overall length but that doesn’t make sense to me. Overall length shouldn’t matter when defining a rifle. It is meant to be fired from the shoulder based in the fact that it has a stock. It uses standard ammo and the barrel is rifled. Maybe it’s got something to do with the binary trigger? If it fires once on trigger pull and once in reset it doesn’t fire once per trigger pull like a rifle but it also isn’t a machine gun.



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Maybe they are being fickle on the word "smoothbore".

5pins
01-13-2018, 11:55 AM
Rumor has it that it is something to do with the trigger.

Maybe push the trigger instead of pull? :confused:

WobblyPossum
01-13-2018, 11:58 AM
I’m also curious if it’s something that the ATF can keep changing its mind on like the pistol braces. Could owners of this thing become instant felons when the ATF decides to reinterpret something?


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LOKNLOD
01-13-2018, 12:05 PM
I think I figured it out. Let's say instead of a round hole they "drill" a hexagonal hole just under the bullet diameter, maybe .222 inches.

Then twist the barrel to give it a spin. It's a smooth barrel, not rifled, but will impart a spin to stabilize the bullet.


Isn't that essentially what polygonal rifling of pre-gen5 Glock, among others, is?

It's not drilled, it's hammer forged around a mandrel, I think, but that's the basic concept.

5pins
01-13-2018, 12:13 PM
Isn't that essentially what polygonal rifling of pre-gen5 Glock, among others, is?

It's not drilled, it's hammer forged around a mandrel, I think, but that's the basic concept.


I think Glock cuts the twits the when "rifling" the barrel. What I'm suggesting is making a barrel with a strait hexagon hole and then twisting the barrel.

I think it would be considered a smooth bore before twisting and I don't think twisting the barrel would be considered "rifling".

pangloss
01-13-2018, 12:23 PM
Rumor has it that it is something to do with the trigger.Maybe it's some sort of set trigger where you pull it once to set, then the trigger returns to it's starting position, and you pull it a second time to fire. Two trigger pulls get one discharge of the firearm. I don't like that idea, but it seems like it might fit with the various legally definitions based on my limited knowledge. Second pulls on set triggers can be crazy light. Just keeping your finger in contact with the trigger might be enough force to actuate the second pull.

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HCM
01-13-2018, 12:37 PM
This strikes me as a gimmick. Plus Franklin Armory is not exactly known for quality. I’ll pass.

Doug
01-13-2018, 01:06 PM
FWIW I don't think they can exploit any California SBR loophole but who knows... Other unfriendly states would follow suit to ban.

"(c) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or
otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than
26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length."


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5pins
01-13-2018, 01:49 PM
According to a post on arfdcom it's not the trigger.

22979

Shoresy
01-13-2018, 02:02 PM
This strikes me as a gimmick. Plus Franklin Armory is not exactly known for quality. I’ll pass.

Part of me wonders if they're playing the "guess what it is" game just to get their name circulated.

I've passed on less bleeding-edge stuff; I'll pass on this one.

hufnagel
01-13-2018, 02:08 PM
I’m also curious if it’s something that the ATF can keep changing its mind on like the pistol braces. Could owners of this thing become instant felons when the ATF decides to reinterpret something?


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You mean like the Shockwave and TAC-14?

WobblyPossum
01-13-2018, 02:10 PM
You mean like the Shockwave and TAC-14?

It’s definitely a concern I have with those.


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hufnagel
01-13-2018, 02:10 PM
I think Glock cuts the twits the when "rifling" the barrel. What I'm suggesting is making a barrel with a strait hexagon hole and then twisting the barrel.

I think it would be considered a smooth bore before twisting and I don't think twisting the barrel would be considered "rifling".

You'd have a hell of a time insuring consistent twist rate along the axis, not to mention keeping concentricity along the axis.

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the trigger, and it'll still be illegal in NJ.

hufnagel
01-13-2018, 02:13 PM
It’s definitely a concern I have with those.


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I'm honestly not too worried about it. Even if they said "ILLEGAL" tomorrow, they'd have a hell of a time I.D.'ing who owns them since, at least here, they're transferred as a shotgun, there's nothing I.D.'ing it as a shockwave on the transfer forms, and even the serial numbers aren't unique.

5pins
01-14-2018, 07:27 AM
You'd have a hell of a time insuring consistent twist rate along the axis, not to mention keeping concentricity along the axis.

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the trigger, and it'll still be illegal in NJ.

Yea the more I think about it the less sense it makes.

5pins
01-14-2018, 01:18 PM
Then again, maybe it wasn't so crazy after all.

Lancaster oval bore rifle.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/the-lancaster-oval-bore-rifle.126976/


Charles Lancaster was a famous British gunmaker in the 1800s. Mr. Lancaster was not only interested in small arms, but also larger cannons as well. In 1850, he came up with the idea of an oval shaped bore. The bore would be slightly oval shaped and would rotate throughout the length of the barrel and therefore, a tightly fitting projectile would come out spinning, just like a rifle bullet. Unlike a true rifle though, there are no grooves and therefore, no sharp rifling edges, which makes the bore easier to clean.

The Newton-Pope Rifling and the Oval Bore.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Vault/Newton-Pope_Rifling_Oval_Bore.html


Instead of the barrel being cut with grooves having their bottoms concentric with the bore of the rifle, and forming sharp angles at the sides, the groove is merely a segment of a circle having a shorter radius than that of the bore

hufnagel
01-14-2018, 02:00 PM
Well if nothing else, the buzz about this thing has been YUGE.

BehindBlueI's
01-14-2018, 02:33 PM
Part of me wonders if they're playing the "guess what it is" game just to get their name circulated.

I've passed on less bleeding-edge stuff; I'll pass on this one.

Of course they are. Free marketing. The "big reveal" is hot now. Right up there with life style branding. Sig does both...

ReverendMeat
01-14-2018, 06:33 PM
Maybe the buttstock delivers an electric shock so as to discourage shouldering

LOKNLOD
01-14-2018, 09:34 PM
While the sheer stupidity of the nature of NFA laws frustrates me to no end, I really dislike the "NFA loophole!" marketing angle bugs me. Flaunting that you're exploiting a loophole is just begging to be made a villain by some leftist hit piece on irresponsible gun makers and how things need to get cracked down on further. No, the law is BS, and it shouldn't matter, but the first rule of exploiting loopholes is you keep your mouth shut or the loophole gets closed.

RevolverRob
01-14-2018, 10:03 PM
While the sheer stupidity of the nature of NFA laws frustrates me to no end, I really dislike the "NFA loophole!" marketing angle bugs me. Flaunting that you're exploiting a loophole is just begging to be made a villain by some leftist hit piece on irresponsible gun makers and how things need to get cracked down on further. No, the law is BS, and it shouldn't matter, but the first rule of exploiting loopholes is you keep your mouth shut or the loophole gets closed.

Don't make sense, bro.

___

Someone made a valid point that the trigger system could be modified, such that a pull back and then deliberate release forward (a two-step trigger, but not in the two-stage sense) could get past the NFA rules. But since some folks are saying it's not the trigger, I guess we'll just see on Media day next week.

5pins
01-15-2018, 07:38 AM
I always get a kick when some politician uses the "loophole". I call it obeying the law.

Whatever they came up with I hope it's not some useless gimmick, although my guess is it probably will be.

RMF
01-15-2018, 10:50 AM
It might perhaps have a barrel design in some ways similar to a Westley Richards Explora or Holland and Holland’s Paradox guns; they we are mostly smooth bore except for the last few inches of some type of rifling. Used to shoot both shot shells and rifle rounds.

MistWolf
01-15-2018, 05:09 PM
Whatever they came up with I hope it's not some useless gimmick, although my guess is it probably will be.

If you notice, the barrel length of the Reformation is pointedly 11.5 inches. Why is this important? Because an AR with an 11.5 inch barrel and a carbine RE has an OAL that measures (with a bare muzzle and no stock) just a tick over 26 inches. Why is this important? Because it's at that length an AR can be classified as a firearm that is neither a rifle or a shotgun. Look up the BATF letter to Franklin Armory concerning adding a vertical foregrip to a handgun.

If the exception is the OAL, it will radically change everything.

joshs
01-15-2018, 05:28 PM
If you notice, the barrel length of the Reformation is pointedly 11.5 inches. Why is this important? Because an AR with an 11.5 inch barrel and a carbine RE has an OAL that measures (with a bare muzzle and no stock) just a tick over 26 inches. Why is this important? Because it's at that length an AR can be classified as a firearm that is neither a rifle or a shotgun. Look up the BATF letter to Franklin Armory concerning adding a vertical foregrip to a handgun.

If the exception is the OAL, it will radically change everything.

That length is only critical if the firearm doesn't otherwise meet the definition of "rifle" or "shotgun." In addition to the minimum overall length, rifles and shotguns must have 16" or 18" barrels respectively to not be NFA "firearms." Past designs have generally accomplished this by not being "designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder." The Reformation clearly has a stock, so it has to use some other way of being excluded from the definition of "rifle" and "shotgun."

WobblyPossum
01-15-2018, 06:16 PM
That length is only critical if the firearm doesn't otherwise meet the definition of "rifle" or "shotgun." In addition to the minimum overall length, rifles and shotguns must have 16" or 18" barrels respectively to not be NFA "firearms." Past designs have generally accomplished this by not being "designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder." The Reformation clearly has a stock, so it has to use some other way of being excluded from the definition of "rifle" and "shotgun."

That’s what I was thinking too. The whole AR pistol craze is only possible because a stripped lower receiver is set up from the get-go to not become a gun that’s supposed to be fired from the shoulder. If you stick a buttstock on your stripped lower receiver, it’s by definition going to become a firearm that’s supposed to be fired from the shoulder.


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5pins
01-15-2018, 07:03 PM
If you notice, the barrel length of the Reformation is pointedly 11.5 inches. Why is this important? Because an AR with an 11.5 inch barrel and a carbine RE has an OAL that measures (with a bare muzzle and no stock) just a tick over 26 inches. Why is this important? Because it's at that length an AR can be classified as a firearm that is neither a rifle or a shotgun. Look up the BATF letter to Franklin Armory concerning adding a vertical foregrip to a handgun.

If the exception is the OAL, it will radically change everything.

If the barrel is under 16 inches and its designed to fire from the shoulder then it's still an SBR regardless of the fact that its over 26 inches.

The president of the company is also claiming that a patent-pending technology is making this possible. The company is also claiming that it's not a smooth bore and it's not the trigger. At least some people are saying that the company is telling them that it's not the trigger, I haven't seen anything from Franklin Armory to that effect but some people are saying this.

Jim Watson
01-15-2018, 11:14 PM
Isn't it the same mumbo jumbo as the Shockwave? Not a short barreled rifle because it was never a regulation rifle.
If they apply a Quacks Like a Duck interpretation instead of a time machine, it is a goner.

5pins
01-23-2018, 09:53 AM
Franklin Armory Reformation Hands On at SHOT Show 2018

https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2018/01/22/quick-look-franklin-armory-reformation-hands-shot-show-2018/


What we know so far:



The “firearm” has a rifled barrel so we can put that rumor to rest.
The trigger is the standard binary trigger from Franklin. It shoots once when you pull the trigger, and once when you release it.
The “firearm” is 26″ long and comes with a stock and no need for a tax stamp or ATF paper work.
It shoot’s really well and feels just like an SBR

What we don’t know:



We don’t know what the loop hole Franklin armory found to get an ATF letter saying this is not an SBR
It might have something to do with the overall length and the barrel length, but they will not confirm anything until tomorrow.

Default.mp3
01-23-2018, 10:33 AM
http://www.recoilweb.com/franklin-armorys-reformation-revealed-133042.html

TL;DR: the barrel has lands and grooves, but no rotation of the lands and grooves, so it's not a rifle, but also not a smoothbore and thus not a shotgun.

WobblyPossum
01-23-2018, 10:46 AM
http://www.recoilweb.com/franklin-armorys-reformation-revealed-133042.html

TL;DR: the barrel has lands and grooves, but no rotation of the lands and grooves, so it's not a rifle, but also not a smoothbore and thus not a shotgun.

Aaaaaaand I’m no longer interested. You know that old quote “only accurate rifles are interesting?” A rifle that can’t impart spin to a bullet won’t do much good past 50 yards. It’ll be a neat little toy but that’s it.


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5pins
01-23-2018, 01:08 PM
Straight rifling would be completely retarded.

hufnagel
01-23-2018, 01:13 PM
I guess i'm of the, let's see what they come up with for projectiles.
there's also the context of, how far out do you expect to hit a specific MOA with an 11.5" barrel?

JodyH
01-23-2018, 02:25 PM
I'd like to see the legality of an oversized straight rifled barrel with a near full length spiral rifled barrel insert that's part of the muzzle device (similar to the Walther made .22's or like a 10" long rifled shotgun choke).

hufnagel
01-23-2018, 02:42 PM
that... is an interesting idea.

eb07
01-23-2018, 02:42 PM
No rifling..... no thank you

5pins
01-23-2018, 04:50 PM
About 4 MOA at 50 yards with standard ammo. Starts keyholing at about 50 yards. All this for the low low price of about $2000.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfTt33S8RK8&t=410s

Kyle Reese
01-23-2018, 05:01 PM
About 4 MOA at 50 yards with standard ammo. Starts keyholing at about 50 yards. All this for the low low price of about $2000.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfTt33S8RK8&t=410sI guess it's just easier to pony up for the $200 tax and buy/build what you want, instead of relying on gimmicks.

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Warped Mindless
01-23-2018, 05:12 PM
Zero point to this now that we have AR pistols that can be equipped with a "brace."

ST911
01-23-2018, 05:17 PM
FA dude says 4-5 MOA @ 50yds.
TFB dude says 4-5 inches @ 50yds.
FA dude doesn’t correct TFB dude.

So which is it?

Both, as they are the same thing on the internet.

5pins
01-23-2018, 05:25 PM
23242

Tokarev
01-23-2018, 06:12 PM
Wow. From hero to zero in 7.53 minutes.

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5pins
01-23-2018, 06:14 PM
Hitler reacts to Franklin's Reformation firearm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=_LPKAm0bNsw

MistWolf
01-23-2018, 09:08 PM
April's Fools Day came early this year. They got me.

Bigghoss
01-24-2018, 05:09 AM
FA dude says 4-5 MOA @ 50yds.
TFB dude says 4-5 inches @ 50yds.
FA dude doesn’t correct TFB dude.

So which is it?

The guy from FA Hocking that thing sounded like he was talking about shoulder things that go up.

Hambo
01-24-2018, 06:26 AM
Yeah, so straight rifling was a thing (briefly) when you ignited your powder with sparks from flint and steel, but I think they'll sell to the mag dump at seven yards crowd.

BillSWPA
01-24-2018, 08:01 AM
When trying to get around a rule based on a technical loophole, it is easy to get too technical, so that the reasoning goes right over the head of the people who decide whether or not you go to jail. I would be concerned about that here.



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Jim Watson
01-24-2018, 02:47 PM
I think they got lucky with a real stupid technical rep at BATF and this will bounce back with a lot of gimmick guns suddenly banned.

Joe in PNG
01-24-2018, 03:12 PM
It's not like the Tactard & Derp crowd really care about accuracy in the first place.

hufnagel
01-24-2018, 06:09 PM
If it *is* stupid (i'm not passing judgement), and they know it's stupid, but know they'll sell container full quantities in a short time and a make Saudi Oil type money from it, then use those funds to make actual useful and cool stuff, should we be upset?

Joe in PNG
01-24-2018, 07:36 PM
If it *is* stupid (i'm not passing judgement), and they know it's stupid, but know they'll sell container full quantities in a short time and a make Saudi Oil type money from it, then use those funds to make actual useful and cool stuff, should we be upset?

Upset is too strong a word. But, this is a world where Taurus Judges and Serpas! are huge bestsellers.
Derp sells.

Artemas2
01-24-2018, 07:38 PM
the price kinda throws a wrench in the idea but for a home defense "rifle", but this should be more accurate than many handgun owners in the 5-25 yard and under territory.

Yes? No?

TAZ
01-24-2018, 09:57 PM
the price kinda throws a wrench in the idea but for a home defense "rifle", but this should be more accurate than many handgun owners in the 5-25 yard and under territory.

Yes? No?

More or less accurate and effective than a pistol with a brace that you don’t intentionally shoulder? Don’t think so. At 2k this thing is a nonstarter. At $600 it could have been fun to try.

justcor
01-24-2018, 09:59 PM
Upset is too strong a word. But, this is a world where Taurus Judges and Serpas! are huge bestsellers.
Derp sells.

+1

It's even Glock now with the 19x or anything Aliengear. Advertising budgets and stupid sells.

23260

HCM
01-24-2018, 10:07 PM
If it *is* stupid (i'm not passing judgement), and they know it's stupid, but know they'll sell container full quantities in a short time and a make Saudi Oil type money from it, then use those funds to make actual useful and cool stuff, should we be upset?

Because Franklin Armory doesn’t make cool stuff. They make Derp stuff.

PNWTO
01-24-2018, 11:20 PM
Upset is too strong a word. But, this is a world where Taurus Judges and Serpas! are huge bestsellers.
Derp sells.

Relevant: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/idiocy

gskip
01-24-2018, 11:56 PM
What is important is that now companies will start making non rifled barrels. So any of us could build a non sbr SBR. Ain't nobody gunna spend 2k on it, but maybe I'll do something dumb if they made a MP5 or some other solely CQB firearm with a non rifled barrel.

That'd be cool.

PNWTO
01-25-2018, 12:15 AM
What is important is that now companies will start making non rifled barrels.


I really doubt there would be the demand, from discerning customers, for a reputable manufacturer to bring such a thing to market. The accuracy alone is unsettling.

Franklin can have their gimmick and their binary triggers.

Joe in PNG
01-25-2018, 12:20 AM
I really doubt there would be the demand, from discerning customers, for a reputable manufacturer to bring such a thing to market. The accuracy alone is unsettling.

Franklin can have their gimmick and their binary triggers.

And the massive number of bullet marks on the walls, floors, and ceilings of indoor ranges will multiply further.

PNWTO
01-25-2018, 12:23 AM
And the massive number of bullet marks on the walls, floors, and ceilings of indoor ranges will multiply further.

The Reformation vs a 18" 590, which patterns tighter? :confused:

HCM
01-25-2018, 12:24 AM
So apparently Franklin Armory wants to load special football shaped bullets with tails to increase the range and accuracy.

23266

Joe in PNG
01-25-2018, 12:27 AM
The Reformation vs a 18" 590, which patterns tighter? :confused:

That is a question very few Reformation owners would ever ask, or even particularly worry about.
I suspect most will just shoot very fast in the general direction of a Zombie target, and be very, very pleased with themselves that half of the holes are within the human shaped lines.

PNWTO
01-25-2018, 12:43 AM
So apparently Franklin Armory wants to load special football shaped bullets with tails to increase the range and accuracy.


This was outlandish enough for me to verify... wonder who is making their sales projections?

23267

Totem Polar
01-25-2018, 03:35 AM
This was outlandish enough for me to verify... wonder who is making their sales projections?

23267


Allison?


http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/a7/a742bd83f60d7a53ecff1d53aa826daf2634b3a3b9943e5a02 7b692ffb0592c3.jpg

HCM
01-25-2018, 12:19 PM
This was outlandish enough for me to verify... wonder who is making their sales projections?

23267

Never doubt Uncle Rico.

LittleLebowski
01-25-2018, 12:39 PM
Disappointing.

Joe in PNG
01-25-2018, 03:27 PM
That's interesting. On one hand, the Derpster market just loves gimmick ammo.
On the other hand, they don't really shoot it. Sure, they may stockpile it during the annual gun ban panic season, but it's not like they buy it by the 1000 round case.
On the gripping hand, they may buy enough to keep the company afloat.

Hambo
01-25-2018, 05:41 PM
This was outlandish enough for me to verify... wonder who is making their sales projections?

23267

Those will be impressive when they keyhole. What do you get when you add the binary trigger, useless straight rifling, and hourglass shaped bullets? Full retard.

LOKNLOD
01-25-2018, 08:19 PM
Finally, the AR with tumbling bullets that was so effective in Vietnam!

BillSWPA
01-26-2018, 12:50 PM
Those will be impressive when they keyhole. What do you get when you add the binary trigger, useless straight rifling, and hourglass shaped bullets? Full retard.

All they need is a bump stock.



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BobLoblaw
01-26-2018, 02:52 PM
Those nerf football bullets are going to cost more than actual nerf footballs.

rathos
01-29-2018, 02:39 AM
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