Duty Gear

[mongooseman]

After years of being assigned to investigations, I’ve started a new, mostly administrative type duty that requires a uniform and duty gear. I put up the concealment gear and have been practicing with a duty belt, which means magazines with a snap release and a level two holster.

Any timed drills involving a draw or reloads have predictably resulted in slower times (not that I was ever fast to begin with). I’m going to continue to work on getting better, but how much will age and equipment realistically affect what I can do (I’m 55, with some of the expected wear and tear that goes with being on the job for nearly 30 years)?

[lwt16]

I'm 48 and recently was issued a new holster with the rotating hood.....after having the old triple retention Safariland holsters for nearly 20 years.

I figured I'd never get as fast as I am now but I can't tell you how many draws and hours of practice I have had to put in to get used to this new holster. Practice until you are sick and tired of it and then practice some more. Age and wear and tear be danged.....

I practice constantly at work.......while others hang out in stores and internet when it's slow, I'll be somewhere in my zone hidden from view drawing.....and drawing......and drawing.........including dry fire practicing and mag changes.

It helps with the arthritis in the hands too. Dry weapon manipulations and dry draw stroke practice is part of every shift for me.

Regards.

[ST911]

When wearing duty gear, it's a safariland 7390-83 ALS with ALS guard, and a model 79 open top vertical mag pouch. Flapped mag pouches are gone. My times are only marginally slower (<.3-.5 sec or so) than other methods. I work hardest on getting the master grip and retention deactivated in a smooth single motion which is the biggest potential time suck. I can work that without even removing the gun from the holster.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I can't disagree with anything above. Shoot the same drills you were before, work on getting your times to where they were. Draw times may or may not be different given that you aren't drawing from concealment but you are working through retention devices. We do not mandated flapped mag pouches, so I can't remember using them, ever. But going from a concealed reload to a flapped pouch reload, what'll the time difference be?

Being chained to a desk interferes with some on-duty dry practice but I'm still getting several dry presentations in every work day.

[John10-19]

If you're using a Glock 17/22/34/35 etc, I recommend picking up a SIRT pistol and a couple SIRT magazines. I find it far more convenient to switch to SIRT gear, while off duty at home before or after a shift or while wearing concealement gear, and get a few quality draw repetitions alternated with draw and shooting repetitions. While on duty, I pratice rotating the SLS hood down while getting a consistent high grip on the gun. After seeing some switched on people spectacularly fail, I am not a fan of dry fire practice while on duty.

If you're not regularly cuffing people, I recommend investing some time practicing removing the cuffs and getting them indexed while using your new duty belt.

I also try to do some practice Taser and baton draws/presentations.

[jlw]

What duty holster are you using?

If it is a rotating hood holster, the single biggest mistake I see with those is people rotating the hood forward and then establishing their grip rather than doing both at the same time.

[Lon]

What duty holster are you using?

If it is a rotating hood holster, the single biggest mistake I see with those is people rotating the hood forward and then establishing their grip rather than doing both at the same time.

THIS +1000.

I have short thumbs so the hoods have always been a problem for me. That's why I just use the ALS/ALS Guard combo holsters.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I’m new to LE but used a hood holster 6280 with my USP and a G22 in the armored truck industry. A, “hack,” that is by design but many dudes like us tend to overlook is using the, “paddle,” on the hood by centering our thumb press straight down on it. But by design, the faceted edges of the thumb paddle are where your thumb is designed to press, and if you do that correctly, your hand will land on the back strap of the pistol in a full-firing grip, just like you should and how Chief Weems mentioned above. Same with the ALS/SLS models.

Many of us old guys who are used to break front, SSIII, or the myriad of holsters that exist pre SLS/ALS, are used to having to do some sleight of hand and thumb theatrics to disengage the retention prior to beginning the drawstroke.

It’s nice that rigs allow a proper, safe draw with good economy of motion these days.


civiliandefender.com

[jlw]

Here is a video from Bill Rogers on draw technique from the SLS/ALS holsters. One would think he knows of what he speaks, since, well, he designed them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZkDNSbLkxY

I have found that driving the elbow to the rear with the strong hand in a "C" grip and then coming into the pistol with a slightly rearward angle that you can drive into the gun with your thumb pushing the bail/hood forward and down at the same time you are establishing the strong hand grip.
Sherman A. House DDS, I was required to use the old 070 holster for my first 10 years. My only real gripe with that holster is that it doesn't support the weight of the gun well. I can actually live without being able to attach a light.

[andre3k]

I tried to get away from flapped mag pouches, but the open top safariland pouches would always loosen up on me and everytime I ran or got into a fight the magazine would inevitably come out. Yeah they are slow on reloads, but I'm jumping fences and grappling more than I'm reloading so I stick with the old style pouches.

[lwt16]

I helped a coworker push a memo up the chain late last year requesting that we get away from flapped mag carriers and it crashed and burned.

Wasn't a big shock to me as my agency also won't allow grip tape or Talon grips. They recently authorized Hogue slip on grips but I never had much luck with those. I found that they would twist and interfere with the mag release so I ditched them. This was way back in the late 90s on my Gen 2 G23 for duty use.

I can live with the traditional magazine carriers.

Regards.

[Chuck Whitlock]

What duty holster are you using?

If it is a rotating hood holster, the single biggest mistake I see with those is people rotating the hood forward and then establishing their grip rather than doing both at the same time.


THIS +1000.

I have short thumbs so the hoods have always been a problem for me. That's why I just use the ALS/ALS Guard combo holsters.


I’m new to LE but used a hood holster 6280 with my USP and a G22 in the armored truck industry. A, “hack,” that is by design but many dudes like us tend to overlook is using the, “paddle,” on the hood by centering our thumb press straight down on it. But by design, the faceted edges of the thumb paddle are where your thumb is designed to press, and if you do that correctly, your hand will land on the back strap of the pistol in a full-firing grip, just like you should and how Chief Weems mentioned above. Same with the ALS/SLS models.

Many of us old guys who are used to break front, SSIII, or the myriad of holsters that exist pre SLS/ALS, are used to having to do some sleight of hand and thumb theatrics to disengage the retention prior to beginning the drawstroke.

It’s nice that rigs allow a proper, safe draw with good economy of motion these days.


civiliandefender.com

Sherman beat me to it! First, put a drop of your favorite gun lube in the hood mechanism with the hood up and one with it down. Working the hood should clean grit out and smooth up the action.
If you hit that anterior angle (corner) with your thumb flagged as you come straight down and establish your grip, the hood will be pushed down and forward with the one motion. If the holster also has the ALS, your thumb will wind up in the perfect place to release it. This motion is identical with the ALS/ALS Guard combo, which is what I use in a soft uniform.

This is far easier to show/demonstrate than it is to explain.

[Up1911Fan]

Here is a video from Bill Rogers on draw technique from the SLS/ALS holsters. One would think he knows of what he speaks, since, well, he designed them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZkDNSbLkxY

I have found that driving the elbow to the rear with the strong hand in a "C" grip and then coming into the pistol with a slightly rearward angle that you can drive into the gun with your thumb pushing the bail/hood forward and down at the same time you are establishing the strong hand grip.
Sherman A. House DDS, I was required to use the old 070 holster for my first 10 years. My only real gripe with that holster is that it doesn't support the weight of the gun well. I can actually live without being able to attach a light.

I'm still required to use the 070. We'll be switching to the 7360 this year, finally!

[ST911]

I tried to get away from flapped mag pouches, but the open top safariland pouches would always loosen up on me and everytime I ran or got into a fight the magazine would inevitably come out. Yeah they are slow on reloads, but I'm jumping fences and grappling more than I'm reloading so I stick with the old style pouches.


I helped a coworker push a memo up the chain late last year requesting that we get away from flapped mag carriers and it crashed and burned.

Fought the battle and won in my shop, and helped some others get open pouches authorized or transitions started. Recipe:

show inconsistency of wear with flaps, vertical or horizontal, bullets up or down - even if policy specifies arrangement, you'll find plenty of noncompliance
show inconsistency of mag fit in flapped pouches if using different gun sizes (G17/19, etc)
show resulting inconsistency of handling, technique, fumbling....dropped mags are great, do enough reps to produce some (video helpful)
show slower speeds via timer and spreadsheet
show commonality with OD/CCW gear, use "muscle memory" tripe to advantage - painful but understood

Quality pouches that are properly adjusted (consider thread locker) minimize or eliminate mag loss.

[lwt16]

Our memo had all that and more in it.

Fell on deaf ears. Old school mentality rules the day. Uniformity means the world here.

And in their defense (well, sort of cause what follows is their fault), most cops here aren't gun types and fall to pieces on a static line standard reload from slide lock. The firearms training here is lacking......putting it in the nicest way I can.

We recently outfitted several officers with new ARs that had a factory rear folding sight (Rugers, I think). At this year's annual qual, the range instructors were shocked to see several that were missing just about all the shots from the 50 yard line. Dozens of officers weren't aware that they had to flip up the rear sight and were aiming by just the front post alone.

There is absolutely no training on how to clear common AR platform malfunctions so throw in some stoppages and the hilarity ensues. Learning to "run the gun" is not the focus. We are all about a yearly State mandated qual course and nothing more. Target shooting....in good light and good weather.

Regards.

[Foxy Brown]

Fought the battle and won in my shop, and helped some others get open pouches authorized or transitions started. Recipe:

show inconsistency of wear with flaps, vertical or horizontal, bullets up or down - even if policy specifies arrangement, you'll find plenty of noncompliance
show inconsistency of mag fit in flapped pouches if using different gun sizes (G17/19, etc)
show resulting inconsistency of handling, technique, fumbling....dropped mags are great, do enough reps to produce some (video helpful)
show slower speeds via timer and spreadsheet
show commonality with OD/CCW gear, use "muscle memory" tripe to advantage - painful but understood

Quality pouches that are properly adjusted (consider thread locker) minimize or eliminate mag loss.

When you say “show” ...how did you show that in your memo? Explanations? Live demonstrations? Video? I’m beyond frustrated with my shitty snap flap pouches. Besides containing and covering WAY too much of the mag, they fit my G35 mags exceedingly poorly. There are some who carry the G23. There is barely any mag above the top of the pouch to grip. The worst part, at our last open shoot, since the space between the mags is less than half an inch, when I drew the forwardmost mag, it made the second mag come out of the pouch. Not sure how, but my full mag dumped on the ground and I wasn’t aware of it. I had a kerfluffle at my PD about switching to the open top mags (even though it was within policy). When I pointed out the dropped mag to the rangemaster, he told me, “Just be aware of that.” Thanks dude.....

[ST911]

When you say “show” ...how did you show that in your memo? Explanations? Live demonstrations? Video?

Memo = fail. I do that as little as possible with stuff like this as memos are where thinking and reality goes to die. Experience and visuals are king.

I took people to the range, gave them reloading-related drills and tasks, timed them and built a spreadsheet, took video overtly and covertly, created optimal conditions to make my point, and let the troops make noise. It didn't take much noise, as all that was left was "it doesn't look normal/right/uniform/professional." Planting the seed in other agencies, same drill. Also did this with dumping .40s, transition out of the 295 and SLS holsters to ALS, high-visibility sights, POWs, and a few other things. A lot depends on the organization. Some methods work better than others.


I’m beyond frustrated with my shitty snap flap pouches. Besides containing and covering WAY too much of the mag, they fit my G35 mags exceedingly poorly. There are some who carry the G23. There is barely any mag above the top of the pouch to grip. The worst part, at our last open shoot, since the space between the mags is less than half an inch, when I drew the forwardmost mag, it made the second mag come out of the pouch. Not sure how, but my full mag dumped on the ground and I wasn’t aware of it. I had a kerfluffle at my PD about switching to the open top mags (even though it was within policy). When I pointed out the dropped mag to the rangemaster, he told me, “Just be aware of that.” Thanks dude.....

Great example. Of several things.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I’m new here in a law enforcement context, and in my experience wearing duty belts (which I wore for years in the armored truck industry) I used open top (Bianchi Triple Threat).

I currently own the Safariland couple mag with flaps and snaps, that is combined with a single (open) handcuff case. There is enough of the magazine exposed to get a good grab on it, AND the mounting plate on it allows it to be canted about 45 degrees, which makes access much easier too, while not allowing gravity to compromise retention. I use a level 3 7TS 7365 and I feel at this point, for patrol, it’s a good choice for me and my long arms.


civiliandefender.com

[babypanther]

The quickest reload with the button flap magazine holders that I was shown at FLETC and used until I bought my own open top was this:

1. On your duty belt mount the magazine pouch oriented horizontally, ON YOUR STRONG SIDE, closest to midline/belt buckle.
2. Magazine pouch needs to be placed so that it opens towards the belt buckle.
3. When you conduct your reload, bring your support hand straight down and, using a karate chop method, hit the flap of the magazine pouch with the bottom edge of your hand so that it is unbuttoned.
4. Continue with this motion until you have pinned the flap out of the way with the edge of your hand, and begin to grasp the base of the top magazine.
5. Pull the magazine out, then insert into gun.

Sounds wayyyyyy complicated, in person after a few reps it wasn't bad. Completely irrelevant if uniform policy doesn't allow you to be effective. God forbid cops win gunfights.