train travel while armed?

[jlw]

I'm familiar with the process for flying while armed, but what is the process, if any, for train travel while armed?

[rathos]

Keep it in the holster unless needed and carry on. Word on the street was they were going to try and put in some kind of weapon check points at train stations but as far as I know it hasn't been enacted.

[Malamute]

I'm interested to know. Ive traveled by train in the past, but it was before the current levels of security in other aspects of life were as prevalent. I really enjoyed train travel. If Im able to do it again and if I had the time, Id stop at various places along the way for a day or two and get back on. I think you can do that on some tickets.

Saw this, not sure if they have much thats useful.

https://www.amtrak.com/passenger-identification

[jlw]

Hoping for the best is not my idea of a good plan.

[jlw]

This is on the Amtrak PD page:

https://police.amtrak.com/index.php/about/leo

[blues]

I am a LEO traveling armed on official police business. What should I do?
Complete a request to travel armed go to https://police.amtrak.com/index.php/about/leo
Or download the current version of the LEO Traveling Armed Information Request form and
submit it to VIPSecurity@Amtrak.com . You will be advised when the appropriate Amtrak
security personnel have been notified of your intended travel.

Please Note: Amtrak policy only allows LEOs conducting official police business to travel armed
aboard Amtrak trains. This policy does not include off duty police officers, retired police officers,
private security personnel or other legally armed individuals

Do I need a LEO traveling Armed Request if I am already listed on the VIP Security Services
Request?
No. LEOs do not need a separate LEO Traveling Armed Request if they are already listed on
the VIP Security Services Request.

I am a LEO traveling on personal business. Can I travel armed aboard Amtrak trains?
No. Amtrak policy only covers LEOs traveling on official police business.

Please note: An alternative to traveling armed is to check your firearm. Some Amtrak trains are
equipped with lockers for this purpose. Contact Amtrak Customer Support for more information at 1
(800) 872-7245. You can also select this link for more information about Firearms in Checked
Baggage .

What if I have more questions?
You can send your questions to VIPSecurity@Amtrak.com or contact the Dignitary Protection
Coordinator at 202.329.0600.

https://police.amtrak.com/templates/dignitary/resources/VIP_FAQ.pdf

[Malamute]

Found this, not sure how authoritative all the info is. Post No 14 seemed to have the only seemingly concise information but it wasnt source cited.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/70079-concealed-carry/

Unfortunately also a lot of derp discussion.

[Totem Polar]

Seems like blues pretty much ferreted out the scoop.

[MI Law]

I rode Amtrak a couple years ago and had a similar concern. I was traveling for a short vacation (to Chicago, i.e. gun required) and found the info posted above about not being able to carry. What I couldn't find (and still haven't, but I admit I haven't looked too hard recently) is what are the consequences for breaking the Amtrak policy? If I'm told to hit the bricks and that's all, that is fine with me. If it is actually a crime, then not fine. I ended up carrying on my trip and nothing came of it. I am interested in finding out the correct answer.

[jlw]

I read the stuff of Amtrak's page prior to starting this thread. The reason I started it is because I found that the process of actually flying while armed had some pitfalls not covered in the actual flying while armed training. When our training guy contacted the feds about an updated lesson plan, we were told, "Our records show that you received the lesson plan in 2014."

So, anyone with firsthand experience in traveling on Amtrak while armed as an LEO (this is the LEO section)?

[blues]

I read the stuff of Amtrak's page prior to starting this thread. The reason I started it is because I found that the process of actually flying while armed had some pitfalls not covered in the actual flying while armed training. When our training guy contacted the feds about an updated lesson plan, we were told, "Our records show that you received the lesson plan in 2014."

So, anyone with firsthand experience in traveling on Amtrak while armed as an LEO (this is the LEO section)?

Sorry if the info I provided was a waste of your time.

[Malamute]

So, anyone with firsthand experience in traveling on Amtrak while armed as an LEO (this is the LEO section)?

I missed that, sorry.

[jlw]

Sorry if the info I provided was a waste of your time.

Not a waste of time, but it is from the link I posted above your post. ;)

[Dagga Boy]

Amtrack regularly gets conductors and passengers assaulted.....yet, do not want armed off duty/retired officers on their trains. They are on the "reap what you sow" list.

[jlw]

Amtrack regularly gets conductors and passengers assaulted.....yet, do not want armed off duty/retired officers on their trains. They are on the "reap what you sow" list.

I have reason to make a trip out west, and as I was researching flights and car rentals, etc, I noticed that an Amtrak line runs from from the airport to my actual destination. I checked the prices, and train travel from the airport to my destination and back is going to be roughly $50 total. Otherwise, I am looking at five days of car rental fees.

[Dagga Boy]

I have reason to make a trip out west, and as I was researching flights and car rentals, etc, I noticed that an Amtrak line runs from from the airport to my actual destination. I checked the prices, and train travel from the airport to my destination and back is going to be roughly $50 total. Otherwise, I am looking at five days of car rental fees.

I had planned to use them for a trip several years ago that we thought would be kind of a fun way to do it. When I called Amtrack, I was treated like I had the plague and was sternly told that they do not recognize LEOSA and did not even allow firearms in baggage. They moved to my list of "Not fricking Ever".

[ST911]

Nothing to offer on Amtrak, but...

I value the safety, privacy, and convenience of rental cars in such circumstances. Tip: I rent cars pretty regularly, most often via the "name your own price" on priceline. It's rare I pay more than $10-25 a day using some tips and hacks. It can be so cheap that I'll rent the vehicle I need rather than use my own POV or GOV for certain in-state and regional trips.

[jlw]

Nothing to offer on Amtrak, but...

I value the safety, privacy, and convenience of rental cars in such circumstances. Tip: I rent cars pretty regularly, most often via the "name your own price" on priceline. It's rare I pay more than $10-25 a day using some tips and hacks. It can be so cheap that I'll rent the vehicle I need rather than use my own POV or GOV for certain in-state and regional trips.

I have rented a car exactly once in my life, and that was on a westward trip last year. I made the reservation on line, and then I got hit with a "franchise fee" or something along those lines that I wasn't expecting that significantly increased the price of the rental.

[Wayne Dobbs]

So, I may have missed it, but do they actually screen passengers and baggage??

[TGS]

So, I may have missed it, but do they actually screen passengers and baggage??

Passengers no.

Some baggage may get randomly checked if you have a VIPR team deployed.

[LSP552]

I had planned to use them for a trip several years ago that we thought would be kind of a fun way to do it. When I called Amtrack, I was treated like I had the plague and was sternly told that they do not recognize LEOSA and did not even allow firearms in baggage. They moved to my list of "Not fricking Ever".

I may be wrong, but I think they have been forced to accept firearms in checked baggage line the airlines. Order of magnitude difference, but I have checked firearms on the Alaska Railroad several times.

[Dagga Boy]

Real simple for me. As long as your allowing felons, paroles and assorted shit on trains without a full screening, and your only security is really a conductor or assistant conductor who are regularly assaulted for the mere act of asking for a ticket.....well, I am not checking my pistol and will find other means of travel.

[jlw]

Never mind.

[Dagga Boy]

Never mind.

Sorry I jacked up your thread. Back on topic. As explained to me by Amtrack, they do not recognize LEOSA, and may or may not be able to allow your firearm in your baggage.

[Det1397]

The Long Island Rail Road, owned and managed by the Metropolitan Transit Authority, and reportedly the busiest United States commuter rail system by annual ridership, issues Police Passes to sworn members of my department and other area agencies. Officers are expected to assist train crew personnel in an official capacity if requested... This policy has been in effect for quite some time, a result of the Colin Ferguson shooting in 1993 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Long_Island_Rail_Road_shooting
I always ride armed on an LIRR train with my family and frankly took it for granted that the same "courtesy" would be offered by Amtrack....

[Dagga Boy]

The Long Island Rail Road, owned and managed by the Metropolitan Transit Authority, and reportedly the busiest United States commuter rail system by annual ridership, issues Police Passes to sworn members of my department and other area agencies. Officers are expected to assist train crew personnel in an official capacity if requested... This policy has been in effect for quite some time, a result of the Colin Ferguson shooting in 1993 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Long_Island_Rail_Road_shooting
I always ride armed on an LIRR train with my family and frankly took it for granted that the same "courtesy" would be offered by Amtrack....

Metrolink in SoCal and DART here in DALLAS encourage LE ridership. I have helped DART fair inspectors several times when they were being physically threatened.

[Brian T]

Not LE, but I work on the periphery of railroading.

I have a few friends and acquaintances that are current or former LE in DFW that have taken the two Amtrak trains (AMTK 21/22 and 821/822) in and out of DFW frequently. Nobody asked, nobody cared, nobody volunteered. Not once were any of them or their bags searched. A few years ago TSA did set up a screening at Dallas Union Station, similar to airports, but the station manager called DPD and DART PD, and the order was given to remove the TSA. I have heard of the host railroad (on long distance trains, Amtrak runs on other railroad's trackage) stopping the train and searching it with K9, but that was only for credible info on a wanted person.

Amtrak banned guns onboard their trains after the Madrid train bombing, but Obama rescinded that ban. Considering that Amtrak is almost 100% federally funded, and is in need of revenue at all times, if enough current and retired LE organizations contacted Amtrak PD's chief and got the PD inline, they could make a change.

*forgive my grammar, I am exhaustimated

[willie]

I suspect that in the South or West that no official would question a policeman whether on or off duty. And I become enraged when policy does not recognize that l.e. folks should be exempt from weapon restrictions.

[Dagga Boy]

The problem comes I if you do have to use or deploy a firearm. Most scumbags paid in lawsuits are not for the actual actions of the what happened but violation of company or organizational policy even if the action was totally legal and justified.

[Dog Guy]

So, I may have missed it, but do they actually screen passengers and baggage??

We traveled Amtrak from Denver to Reno last November. They verified that we had tickets in our hands, but never checked ID to make sure that we were the people who's names were on the ticket. I never saw any screening of baggage, either checked or carry on.

[Irelander]

The problem comes I if you do have to use or deploy a firearm. Most scumbags paid in lawsuits are not for the actual actions of the what happened but violation of company or organizational policy even if the action was totally legal and justified.

This makes sense.

I'm not LE but it seems to me that there isn't much risk in carrying especially since there is no security screening. Seems like don't ask don't tell to me. If the railroad is not going to protect its passengers then the passengers need to protect themselves. No one will know unless the SHTF...right?

This reminds me of the terrorist attack on the French train 2015 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Thalys_train_attack). I guess the only one armed was the scumbag SNACKBAR guy.

[blues]

This makes sense.

I'm not LE but it seems to me that there isn't much risk in carrying especially since there is no security screening. Seems like don't ask don't tell to me. If the railroad is not going to protect its passengers then the passengers need to protect themselves. No one will know unless the SHTF...right?

This reminds me of the terrorist attack on the French train 2015 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Thalys_train_attack). I guess the only one armed was the scumbag SNACKBAR guy.

Which is why DB and others (like myself) will avoid intentionally putting ourselves in the situation where we cannot (legally) defend ourselves or others, or face the risk of being criminally charged or having our life savings depleted in a civil action. (Which is also why I pretty much just suck it up and drive unless there is no alternative.)

[willie]

40 plus years ago my friend's partner was in a Houston supermarket. He was off duty and shot an armed robber with a M58 .41 Mag, the bullet of which broke a front window when it penetrated the bg. The supermarket company made the cop pay for the window. We have always lived in a strange world, and it continues to get more weird.

[JustOneGun]

This makes sense.

I'm not LE but it seems to me that there isn't much risk in carrying especially since there is no security screening. Seems like don't ask don't tell to me. If the railroad is not going to protect its passengers then the passengers need to protect themselves. No one will know unless the SHTF...right?

This reminds me of the terrorist attack on the French train 2015 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Thalys_train_attack). I guess the only one armed was the scumbag SNACKBAR guy.


I'm with DB...it's when you have to use the pistol. Then suddenly it's a federal crime. Better to stay out of the path of a rolling stone called government. YMMV. Plus we've seen how the scumbag SNACKBAR guy suddenly turns into the dude who was just turning his life around and was just looking for the ALOHA SNACKBAR when you went all Rambo on him. It's not just, "Screw Amtrak" but not wanting to put ourselves in that situation when there is another reasonable way to get there.

[TGS]

Then suddenly it's a federal crime.

Is it?

I've read the CFR regarding entities like Amtrak being able to regulate the transportation of firearms, but I'm not seeing any related criminal code against it. For instance, the same CFR that allows airlines to say how firearms are transported is the same CFR used for railways, but the article making it illegal to carry a gun on an airplane is 49 USC 46505.

I'm not arguing with your general way of thinking re: "the rolling stone called government" (that's a really good way of putting it, btw), I'm just curious if anyone can actually point me to where it's a crime for someone to carry onboard Amtrak. As far I know, it's just Amtrak's policy.

[JustOneGun]

Is it?

I've read the CFR regarding entities like Amtrak being able to regulate the transportation of firearms, but I'm not seeing any related criminal code against it. For instance, the same CFR that allows airlines to say how firearms are transported is the same CFR used for railways, but the article making it illegal to carry a gun on an airplane is 49 USC 46505.

I'm not arguing with your general way of thinking re: "the rolling stone called government" (that's a really good way of putting it, btw), I'm just curious if anyone can actually point me to where it's a crime for someone to carry onboard Amtrak. As far I know, it's just Amtrak's policy.


I'm not a lawyer but it's fairly evident that Amtrak or any other business is allowed to put up signs that prohibit weapons. On their property it is their right to limit your second amendment right. In my state violating that sign and clear intent to keep us from carrying pistols on the train is a violation of state law. If they find out that you broke the law when it became necessary to shoot someone, well that puts a person in a very precarious spot. Now you've shot someone while violating the law with the same pistol that caused the violation of law. That violation is a misdemeanor. That circular reasoning can and sometimes does come into play when they charge someone with homicide even though it would be a good shoot.

That legal reasoning, while I and others don't agree, has put many a person behind bars. That reasoning is what I was referring to when I suggest doing it some other way. I don't have to agree that a business would bar me from having a pistol but it is their right. I'm not willing to risk my rights in order to deny them theirs. Now if someone want to transport that pistol on the train, who am I to, "Tell" them what to do. I think the differing views are worth considering and then a person will do what they want.

[Dagga Boy]

It’s not a federal crime. It is their policy. The huge difference between Amtrack and other businesses is Amtrack has sworn federal police officers with real police powers. Huge difference in not mind for any potential aftermath of using any kind of force on one of their trains. Like many things, this comes down to a choice if I want to risk consequences or not, or weighing alternatives. Unarmed, or a rental car? Or armed with potential for a Post force issue or a rental car or other travel. Fairly simple. What I do find humorous though in a bit funny way is how many local train type services encourage armed LE ridership, and many incidents have been stopped and both passengers and rail employees protected by those armed off duty/retired officers exactly like LEOSA was designed at a federal level, yet the federal overseen train does not want it.

[blues]

What I do find humorous though in a bit funny way is how many local train type services encourage armed LE ridership, and many incidents have been stopped and both passengers and rail employees protected by those armed off duty/retired officers exactly like LEOSA was designed at a federal level, yet the federal overseen train does not want it.

Nor do the federal agencies hence their unwillingness to qualify their retired agents...leaving them to do so via the local sheriff's dept., (as I do), or other local or state LE agency, or certified instructor who is authorized to qualify under the program.

Hell, some agencies will not even provide their retired sworn personnel with identification for LEOSA if they didn't have the foresight to request their retired creds.

Unfortunate situation...to say the least.

[CleverNickname]

Would 18 USC 922(e) not apply in this instance?


(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

Amtrak would certainly be a common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate commerce.

[TGS]

Would 18 USC 922(e) not apply in this instance?



Amtrak would certainly be a common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate commerce.

Good catch, but I don't think anything in that applies to the carriage of firearms. All it's saying is that you, 1) Can't put a gun in a package and give it to a common/contract carrier for shipment to people other than we already understand (FFLs, etc) without written notice, 2) If you're travelling and the gun is accompanying you without being shipped to an FFL, you CAN put it in a package to the common/contract carrier (ex: checking your bag at the airport) and, 3) The common/contract carrier isn't allowed to mark the bag on its exterior that it has a gun.


I'm not a lawyer but it's fairly evident that Amtrak or any other business is allowed to put up signs that prohibit weapons. On their property it is their right to limit your second amendment right. In my state violating that sign and clear intent to keep us from carrying pistols on the train is a violation of state law. If they find out that you broke the law when it became necessary to shoot someone, well that puts a person in a very precarious spot. Now you've shot someone while violating the law with the same pistol that caused the violation of law. That violation is a misdemeanor. That circular reasoning can and sometimes does come into play when they charge someone with homicide even though it would be a good shoot.

That legal reasoning, while I and others don't agree, has put many a person behind bars. That reasoning is what I was referring to when I suggest doing it some other way. I don't have to agree that a business would bar me from having a pistol but it is their right. I'm not willing to risk my rights in order to deny them theirs. Now if someone want to transport that pistol on the train, who am I to, "Tell" them what to do. I think the differing views are worth considering and then a person will do what they want.

Again,

I'm not arguing with the general premise you're puttin' down about being in the way of the "rolling stone called government." I get it, seriously. You claimed it was a federal crime. I asked if it was, and for supporting US Code on the carriage of firearms on Amtrak being a federal crime....nothing to do with state laws about criminal trespassing.

[TCB]

Hmmm...I wonder, does this apply to FLEO’s as well? Most of us can get onto airplanes armed...

[Poconnor]

I wonder if this cuts both ways. If you traveled armed and were forced to defend yourself against a terrorist; could you sue Amtrak for deliberate indifference; failure to provide adequate armed security on the train for a foreseeable event? I’m not a lawyer but it seems that many of the frivolous lawsuits directed at police departments would apply.