How do I stop once a decision to fire has been made?

[KeithH]

As my draws and first shots became faster over time and more reflexive in nature I had this nagging doubt in the back of my mind that maybe they were becoming a bit TOO reflexive in nature. Like, would I be able to slam on the brakes and not shoot if the situation suddenly changed. Will my critical thinking skills still be working mid draw, or will I be a mindless robot that has to execute the command to fire irrespective of a sudden change in circumstances. This bothers me. It bothers me enough that I just ditched my last striker fired weapon and purchased a double action thinking that might be the solution. I honestly need much more than a new platform.
I need training.

How do I find a trainer that can give me a total makeover and teach me how to build confidence in this area? Preferably with double action autos. I don't want to experiment or try and invent something new. I want to copy an existing proven system from a professional and then practice it until proficient. Hopefully with access to future training. I am motivated and teachable.

[PNWTO]

Sounds like the classic case of "outrunning your headlights". Many good posts here on that subject.

Have you been instructed by a vetted trainer before?

[Peally]

Why not just incorporate the need to draw and not fire into your practice?

[Surf]

I have an opinion on this topic that may go upstream. Post this now so hopefully I remember to follow up when time allows.

[KeithH]

Sounds like the classic case of "outrunning your headlights". Many good posts here on that subject.

Have you been instructed by a vetted trainer before?


Never been instructed by a vetted trainer. Been putting this off for 3 years due to a round of health issues. Back on trac and working overtime to pay for it.

I am wary of instructors. I do not want to pay someone to unlearn what I just paid someone else to learn. Rather get it right the first time. Even if it costs more. The few trainers I met made me uncomfortable with their militaristic, battle field approach. I am not a police officer or a soldier. I honestly don't know how to vette the trainer. I have a coworker who does paramilitary training locally. He seems legit. Not sure if those skill sets are a good fit for me.s There is a LOT of stuff out there.

[KeithH]

Why not just incorporate the need to draw and not fire into your practice?


My coworker suggested that. What a neat simple idea. He also wanted to do live fire with two colored balloons and he calls the color and sometimes changes the color after the order to fire. And then some other counting drill. There is so very much out there. Would love some one stop shopping. Just pay the money, show up, do the work and get fixed.

[Peally]

The real trainer is always gonna be you in your free time and the work will never end ;)

You've already identified a potential change you'd like in your shooting. Train at it from multiple angles (different drills and such, you've already brainstormed some) and see if it's a real or perceived problem. If it's a real problem identify ways to fix it and occasionally retest yourself once you feel you've knocked it out. It's the same identify/practice/test cycle you'll use for literally everything shooting related you want to improve.

Nothin' to it, you're already past the part of recognizing something you want to polish up.

[PNWTO]

Never been instructed by a vetted trainer. Been putting this off for 3 years due to a round of health issues. Back on trac and working overtime to pay for it.

A better inquiry would have been "have they been mentioned on P-F"?


I am wary of instructors. I do not want to pay someone to unlearn what I just paid someone else to learn. Rather get it right the first time. Even if it costs more. The few trainers I met made me uncomfortable with their militaristic, battle field approach. I am not a police officer or a soldier. I honestly don't know how to vette the trainer. I have a coworker who does paramilitary training locally. He seems legit. Not sure if those skill sets are a good fit for me.s There is a LOT of stuff out there.

There indeed is a lot of stuff out there. The AAR section of P-F may be a good place to peruse. Even though you aren't a soldier or LEO there are still many applicable lessons to be imparted, especially on the mindset/mental game. With all due respect to your coworker, please elaborate on "paramilitary training".


Would love some one stop shopping. Just pay the money, show up, do the work and get fixed.

There is not necessarily a quick fix, as repetition and reinforcement is needed. Even a damn fine instructor can only impart so much over a weekend or a few days.

Lastly, I would have to second what Peally offered. I think there is great value in practicing drawing with no intention to fire.

[KeithH]

[I]"With all due respect to your coworker, please elaborate on "paramilitary training"./I]

Security contractors working outside the United States.

[Drang]

A better inquiry would have been "have they been mentioned on P-F"?
This.

Also, this:
Firearms Training Hub (http://firearmstraininghub.com/)

[Hrhawk]

How fast is this draw fire 1?

Because the simple answer is stop applying pressure to the trigger... the moment the scenario dictates it.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

You sound like you want to do scenario based, decision heavy force on force classes as a supplement to your skills based training.

Something that puts you in the scenario with sims guns, verbal interactions, branching decisions in which you may or may not have to apply the bang switch, the training knife or the boot to ass...

If only someone did training like that...

http://shivworks.com/
http://www.toddrassatraining.com/

[Jared]

One suggestion would be to do some of the dry fire drills Tom Givens has posted that include drawing to a low ready. Another good practice could be drawing and getting a sight picture but leaving the trigger finger indexed on the frame rather than touching or pulling the trigger.
Dagga Boy has posted a good bit and mentioned in a podcast about making decisions to stop before actually firing a shot. He and Wayne Dobbs have a training company called HiTS that is most definitely on my list of places to get training from.

[hufnagel]

I'm in no way discounting any dry fire drills or draw-to position practice, but if I'm reading the OP's intention right, he's looking for a way to train to "hit the brakes" when stimuli (predominantly visual?) change the "shoot" to a "no-shoot". I can think of a couple ideas on how to do it, but they all involve interactive or moving targets of some form; I'm having a hard time coming up with something static and with an external triggering of shoot/no-shoot swapping.

Maybe i'm over-thinking it, but to me it's the external, uncontrolled by the shooter factor that's seems important. It's hard to be "honest" with yourself that you're making the shoot/no-shoot decision as late and as unknown ahead of time as possible; we're all fantastic liars when it comes to our selves. :D

ETA: In case it wasn't clear, i'm only considering solo practice, not interactive with another human being calling your shots. :rolleyes:

[Erick Gelhaus]

JLW, a member here, teaches in the Atlanta metroplex. While I haven't been a student, I've seen his writings here, watched his presentations at TacCon, and had a few discussions with him. Even though he is a cop, hardly a prejoritive, his material will be more than sufficient. Soon, he will host Dave Spaulding, another I can wholw heartedly recommend. Tom Givens travels in that area; as does Randy Cain. Outside of Nashville is Ron Fielder. Anyone of those gentlemen can help you address the issue you are concerned about.

The suggestion to draw to the Ready or a Sight Picture and NOT shoot is viable.

I think concerns like yours are legitimate and they may be a spin off from the push for pure speed. MAY. Take a look at thew thread of assessment speed.

[KeithH]

Yes, you guys get it. I want to train to hit the brakes. Not just hitting the accelerator.

[RJ]

How do I find a trainer that can give me a total makeover and teach me how to build confidence in this area?

If you are in Atlanta, I'd contact Claude Werner for training options:

https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/about/

Slightly further afield, but still in Georgia, another option, already mentioned, is jlw, who is active on this forum and owner / operator of First Person Safety:

https://firstpersonsafety.com/about/

I have met both of these gentlemen and would not hesitate to train with them.

[DNW]

Definitely seek scenario based training where you can respond to external stimuli and make real decisions. I am pretty skeptical of training that does not include scenarios for this type of training, you want to learn to stop when there is no longer a threat, not when you see a blue balloon instead of a red one.

Be mindful in your selection of instructors. I have trained with some very good instructors from both the LE and military side of the house. Sometimes, and this is a generalization, the instructors with military backgrounds are not as tuned in to teaching use of force decision making in the LE or civilian environment. They are extremely competent shooters, and you can learn a lot from them, but their focus is different.

[Dagga Boy]

You simply need to be putting reps in at not shooting. Draws to ready, draws to on target but with a finger off the trigger. Returning to targets Post reload or malfunction clearance and not having a finger on the trigger. Using a timer and actually stopping at the buzzer, including if you are I. The middle of a press.
I am of the opinion that a lot of folks practice shooting and are always chasing improvement shooting performance and very little time with use of force performance.
Wayne and I have incorporated numerous drills and criteria into our drills to maximize shooting performance with some factors of force performance. It is often hard from both a performance standpoint as well as habit breaking from pure shooting performance aspects.

[David S.]

Get some one to join you at the range. Have them yell "stop" mid draw, or come up with a way for them to give a visual stop indication. Incorporate this randomly in your draw practice so it's a surprise. You could also do this in dry practice.

ETA: "Square range" drills like these are a good start. Ultimately they should be further trained and tested in good quality force on force training.

If you can already safely draw from a holster, check my Fundamental Handgun section (http://firearmstraininghub.com/menu/handgun/fundamental-handgun/). My goal for the site is to provide "vetted" instructors, at least per Pistol-Forum standards. It's very much a work in progress. That said, I don't see anything listed near Atlanta for the first quarter of 2018.

I'll echo the above mentioned First Person Safety and Claude Werner in Atlanta. There I plan to list both instructors "SoonTM", just haven't gotten around to it.

[jlw]

First, thanks to @Angus McPhee and Rich_Jenkins for their kind words.

My Defensive Pistol Skills class sounds just like what you are seeking. Mobettadefense is a three-time attendee and multiple recipient of the Distinguished Esquire award. Also, here is a review (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27536-Class-Review-First-Person-Safety-Defensive-Pistol-Skill-Builder-9-02-2017) written by another forum member Robinson who attended the first iteration of this curriculum.

For a shooting class, we spend a lot of time on not shooting people. The curriculum stresses shoot/no-shoot decisions, target identification, and processing information. Oh yeah, it is a DQ on any drill/test to have your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be there.

I hope to have another offering soon as this class has sold out the last four offerings. My classes are usually in Athens/Oconee or up 85 in Franklin County.

[blues]

Aside from training with external sources, it is imperative to incorporate a certain mindset and practice in one's thinking process and dry fire practice.

You have to get used to the idea that drawing a firearm does not mean firing. Keep your finger off the trigger until you have determined that you must and will fire. Play scenarios in your head where you will have drawn your weapon and then de-escalate before putting rounds on the target (bad guy).

When you practice / dry fire at home, don't go immediately to the trigger. Draw the weapon and look at your intended target. Mix up your scenarios as you draw as to whether it is required that you shoot or not.

During the course of my career, I had many, many situations where my firearm, (handgun or long gun), was out and pointed at someone during an entry or an arrest. In several of those cases the threat level rose to the point of finger on the trigger and the application of pressure. In each of those instances where it was warranted...I was able to stand down without discharging the weapon when the threat and situation was under control.

Scenario based training, as recommended above, whether live or via simulated (video, FATS, etc) training will also go a long way to developing good mental and physical habits.

I can't stress enough, however, during dry fire training...not to go immediately to the trigger from the draw as it will ingrain bad habits imho. Put your gun on target and assess all the way through the process.

[KeithH]

Thank you for all the suggestions. I see there is a lot to learn. That is why I asked here. I like the suggestions for local trainers as well. It would be easier to go to multiple local classes rather than occasional far away ones.

[hufnagel]

blues mentioned a word that's making bells go off in my head: VIDEO
Are there any scenario videos out there one could use with dry fire practice?
Assuming one is honest with themselves as to whether or not they shot the hostage, I could see them being an interesting tool in the bucket.

[BehindBlueI's]

[I]"With all due respect to your coworker, please elaborate on "paramilitary training"./I]

Security contractors working outside the United States.

Contractors don't get any high speed fighting training. They hire people who already know how to do the job. Which doesn't always translate into typical ccw role stuff.

OP, realistic force on force or time in a simulator is worth your time. My city has a place you can go to with an old FATS machine.

[KeithH]

Contractors don't get any high speed fighting training. They hire people who already know how to do the job. Which doesn't always translate into typical ccw role stuff.

OP, realistic force on force or time in a simulator is worth your time. My city has a place you can go to with an old FATS machine.

What he described sounded very offensive in nature, like advancing against an enemy. I do not want to buy ceramic body armor, night vision and all this other crap, I’m just a quiet civilian Who wants to avoid trouble, stay alive, and stay out of court. Your point is well taken.

[Malamute]

My city has a place you can go to with an old FATS machine.

Do you have more details?

[blues]

Do you have more details?

The NRA instructor at our local indoor range has or at least had (in the recent past) access to a FATS and other related equipment for providing instruction. I imagine that such training aids may be more generally available than one might otherwise assume.

[BehindBlueI's]

Do you have more details?

http://poseidonexperience.com

[Jim Watson]

In my limited experience, you need FoF or cinema range work to break the habit of "The Stroke."
First time I shot a suspicious character before being sure he was an armed assailant gave me furiously to think. Even though he WAS armed and would have become a threat very shortly in the scenario presented, I had not done the right thing at that moment.

[hufnagel]

Jim Watson I wanted to reply, but I think that could be it's own thread. :D

[fatdog]

First time I shot a suspicious character before being sure he was an armed assailant gave me furiously to think.

I have seen this, and it has happened to me (both been shot and shot people too early) in the last decade of participating in Southnarc's various FoF classes, and it caused me to also begin to furiously think!

I was quite shaken by a couple of instances. I truly value the FoF work I have been able to do with him and what it taught. It changed my perspective on many things I had "visualized" incorrectly for a long time. It also changed some of my training routine. I would expect lots of people with time in FATS and similar environments have experienced the same.

[Mobettadefense]

First, thanks to @Angus McPhee and Rich_Jenkins for their kind words.

My Defensive Pistol Skills class sounds just like what you are seeking. Mobettadefense is a three-time attendee and multiple recipient of the Distinguished Esquire award. Also, here is a review (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27536-Class-Review-First-Person-Safety-Defensive-Pistol-Skill-Builder-9-02-2017) written by another forum member Robinson who attended the first iteration of this curriculum.

For a shooting class, we spend a lot of time on not shooting people. The curriculum stresses shoot/no-shoot decisions, target identification, and processing information. Oh yeah, it is a DQ on any drill/test to have your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be there.

I hope to have another offering soon as this class has sold out the last four offerings. My classes are usually in Athens/Oconee or up 85 in Franklin County.

Come take jlw Lee Weems Defensive Pistol Skills class (any iteration) it will absolutely address your concerns. I had the same concerns after spending a lot of time working to improve my Bill Drill, Failure to Stop, etc... draw and fire drills. As I got smoother and faster with those drills (still no grandmaster by a long shot) I worried about getting into a habit of firing every time I drew the gun. Lee in addition to being my sensei is a bonafide Tom Givens disciple and heir. Lee maintains a central focus on helping shooters work to incorporate sound decision making and minimizing/mitigating threats to bystanders. I would like to believe that none of us will ever decide to draw a gun unless we are in a situation where deadly force is required but we all need to be able to recognize and to practice the decision making process of shoot/no shoot decisions. Lee works on that in every class and it is very valuable. Check out https://firstpersonsafety.com/ and come join us in a handgun skill class.

[Dagga Boy]

In my limited experience, you need FoF or cinema range work to break the habit of "The Stroke."
First time I shot a suspicious character before being sure he was an armed assailant gave me furiously to think. Even though he WAS armed and would have become a threat very shortly in the scenario presented, I had not done the right thing at that moment.


I have seen this, and it has happened to me (both been shot and shot people too early) in the last decade of participating in Southnarc's various FoF classes, and it caused me to also begin to furiously think!

I was quite shaken by a couple of instances. I truly value the FoF work I have been able to do with him and what it taught. It changed my perspective on many things I had "visualized" incorrectly for a long time. It also changed some of my training routine. I would expect lots of people with time in FATS and similar environments have experienced the same.

Now picture doing that everyday, multiple times a day for real and not a video or FOF and no second chances or much learning through mistakes and you can see how much of my philosophy is shaped.

[DamonL]

Haley Strategic has a simulator facility in Scottsdale, AZ. And a scenario-based program of instruction to go with it.

https://www.haleystrategictrain.com/product-page/march-8-9-d7-performance-hsp-headquarters-scottsdale-az

[jlw]

Andrew Branca uses a simulator in his second day of Law of Self Defense class.

[DC_P]

I cannot recommend highly enough Mark Quimby at Warrior Works. Don't let the 'warrior' in the name deceive you, he is a professional instructor for any and all scenarios and will tailor your training to what you need. I spent a day with him last year and plan to go again in March. A short drive to Birmingham and very reasonable prices for one-on-one training. He has access to a private indoor range so can set up for whatever you need.

Here is a link to his yt page so you can get a feel for his training philosophies and demeanor to see if you think it will be a good fit. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw1z0tx782lacDa6QaJFiZQ

You can contact him through the yt page and he may even takes requests for training videos if there is something specific you want to see. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions about training with him.

[beenalongtime]

blues mentioned a word that's making bells go off in my head: VIDEO
Are there any scenario videos out there one could use with dry fire practice?
Assuming one is honest with themselves as to whether or not they shot the hostage, I could see them being an interesting tool in the bucket.

The range I tend to use, has a video projector training room. I gal I know went with her brother and took a school lockdown/shooting video class. She was very shaken up about it. I wouldn't be (been at knife and gun point back when I was in school, was not the least bit surprised at Columbine). Reminds me of the shoot, no shoot video's that used to be used and were part of the police academy at one point. Not sure if they are still used or if at all beyond the academy.
Check with your local ranges.

[KeithH]

Thanks for the help and all the suggestions guys. I feel like I have a direction now.

[Wheeler]

I'm not sure what options have been proposed as I didn't read the entire thread. Your best local bet is to touch base with Claude Werner, especially as you're in Atlanta.

[TOTS]

My coworker suggested that. What a neat simple idea. He also wanted to do live fire with two colored balloons and he calls the color and sometimes changes the color after the order to fire. And then some other counting drill. There is so very much out there. Would love some one stop shopping. Just pay the money, show up, do the work and get fixed.

Something I use is a buddy and a laser pointer. Three targets set up. At signal I draw and partner “ropes “ a target of his (random) choice. That’s the threat to be engaged. Sometimes he delays the mark and sometimes no threat is indicated. I engage until the threat is neutralized as indicated by an off laser. Or I don’t engage if no threat is indicated. Keeps me thinking and the shot is made deliberately and threat dependent rather than automatically. It’s at least fun if nothing else.

[RevolverRob]

You simply need to be putting reps in at not shooting. Draws to ready, draws to on target but with a finger off the trigger. Returning to targets Post reload or malfunction clearance and not having a finger on the trigger. Using a timer and actually stopping at the buzzer, including if you are I. The middle of a press.
I am of the opinion that a lot of folks practice shooting and are always chasing improvement shooting performance and very little time with use of force performance.
Wayne and I have incorporated numerous drills and criteria into our drills to maximize shooting performance with some factors of force performance. It is often hard from both a performance standpoint as well as habit breaking from pure shooting performance aspects.

This ^^^^^^^^ - Is why I recommend you train with HiTS (http://www.hardwiredtacticalshooting.com/) - Darryl's philosophy and the program that they run is good at teaching you control of a firearm beyond a basic "point, shoot, reload" framework.


You sound like you want to do scenario based, decision heavy force on force classes as a supplement to your skills based training.

Something that puts you in the scenario with sims guns, verbal interactions, branching decisions in which you may or may not have to apply the bang switch, the training knife or the boot to ass...

If only someone did training like that...

http://shivworks.com/

Concur. Shivworks curriculum will teach you what a square range or even a range with a timer won't. You're not only going to uncover your weaknesses, you'll figure out that scenarios don't play out as mapped.

___

In terms of drilling in "the brakes" - A dry fire timing/training app can randomize your routine and force the practice of draw without fire, on target, without fire, etc.

I like to use the TV, personally. While watching a show, I'll pick one or two characters that are no shoots. And then set the par timer for my dry skills. Timer goes, draw and start engaging targets, every individual that is a shoot gets blasted, those that are no shoots - don't get shot. If the timer goes off while no shoots are on the screen, with shoots not present, draw and press out, but don't shoot, sometimes a shoot shows up before your par-time expires and you gotta get back on the trigger and gun. Once you get into a rhythm no shoots can get harder or easier (depends on your decision making, along with timing).