Bill Allard on the 45 Auto

[Tokarev]

Sent by a friend.




Bill and Jim were with with the New York PD "Stakeout Squad" Smoked many a bad guys.........I came across this looking through some documents on my computer by Bill Allard who worked with Jim Cirillo on the Stakeout Squad. I don't remember where I got it, maybe Paul Kirchner. I have concerns about the penetration of heavy bone with smaller caliber pistol bullets like the 9mm and .38 and Allard favors a heavy bullet (like Elmer Keith).




"I will TAKE A 45 ACP AUTO ANY DAY.

I once had a PPC match against Jim Cirillo, he used his revolver with speed loaders and I used my 1911 45 ACP, after we finished the first 6 rounds at 7 yards I put in a fresh mag, and was finished BEFORE HE CLOSED HIS CYLINDER with his remaining 6 rounds.

All thru the course I not only beat him with the speed of the auto, but with accuracy as WELL. Today with the high capacity mags gives one more firepower than 6 SHOTS, there are now double action autos. When you put a 22 cal conversion on a 45 1911 you can shoot cheap ammo, and YOU ONLY HAVE ONE GUN, NOT A EXTRA REVOLVER to worry about.

I amSURE YOU HAVE SEEN A REVOLVER JAM when the bullet is driven forward by the recoil, or a HIGH primer both which NOW GIVE YOU A EXPENSIVE BLACKJACK, because the revolver is now USELESS AS A GUN! You now have a VERY EXPENSIVE BLACK JACK. I can usually clear a auto when the slide does not close because of the above jams on a revolver.

I will take my 45 1911 in a gunfight I can speak with validity as having the most gunfights in NYPD history (having been in THE MOST REAL GUNFIGHTS IN STAKE OUT UNIT, some with Jim Cirillo who used a 38 spec S&W revolver) The 38 will NOT BREAK THRU the large shoulder bone my 45 ALWAYS PENETRATED THIS BONE and went on to punch thru the heart and lungs to KILL THE SOB.

Cirillo always had a bullshit excuse as to why his 38 did not get the job done. I once shot 2 perps in a Mid Town hotel, (using my 1911 NMC) the bullet never exited the first perp, and the second perp I shot thru a THICK Glass Door Killing the perp on the other side of it. The 38 spec would NOT PENETRATE THAT DOOR. Cirillo NEVER GOT A SHOT OFF WITH HIS 38 REVOLVER! The gunfight probably was not more than a THREE SECONDS. SO MUCH FOR REVOLVERS, I am ALIVE TODAY BECAUSE OF MY 1967 NMC 1911 gun that I bought at Camp Perry Ohio. God bless John Browning for his gun that is STILL THE CHOICE OF OUR MILITARY and the FBI Hostage Team as well as their SWAT team.

There are many Police Departments switching over to the 45 1911, I am not aware of any dept going back to the revolver."

BILL ALLARD

A bit dated now perhaps. But still interesting.



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[Trooper224]

From a time when giants walked the earth.

[KhanRad]

In a world full of revolvers, of course a 7-8 shot semi auto was superior. Same argument Jeff Cooper made in the "old days" having more ammo on tap, and then having significantly faster and more reliable reloads were the game changers. With modern equipment, the same could be said today with a 17+1 9mm platform. As far as .45acp "breaking shoulders" go....meh, there have been very mixed results with the .45acp in the last 30 years of OISs. The Keith Borders and Tim Gramins OISs demonstrated that the .45acp is nothing special.

[Hambo]

Allard's success in gunfights probably says more about Bill Allard than his handgun and ammo choices.

[Mike Pipes]

Interesting,thanks for posting......CYA Retro

[Gary1911A1]

Thanks for posting. I believe any pistol that thumps me more on recoil thumps the target harder too so I remain a fan of the .45ACP over the 9MM for carry.

[JohnO]

The second half of the following Podcast is Mas Ayoob interviewing Bill Allard. Great listen.

http://www.podcasts.com/the_proarms_podcast/episode/010_save_the_blue_trail_range_and_a_conversation_w ith_bill_allard

[Chemsoldier]

In a world full of revolvers, of course a 7-8 shot semi auto was superior. Same argument Jeff Cooper made in the "old days" having more ammo on tap, and then having significantly faster and more reliable reloads were the game changers. With modern equipment, the same could be said today with a 17+1 9mm platform. As far as .45acp "breaking shoulders" go....meh, there have been very mixed results with the .45acp in the last 30 years of OISs. The Keith Borders and Tim Gramins OISs demonstrated that the .45acp is nothing special.

.45 ACP may have had a more noticeable advantage in performance in the 60s, 70s and 80s when it was measured against .38 SPC 158 gr RNL, .357 mag semi-jacketed, 9mm hardball and 1st generation HPs. Also, .45 ACP hardball's ability to run well in autos was likely an advantage over early smaller caliber autos where exotic ammo might have had issues, especially for shooters that were not guns and ballistics nerds.

Now days, I agree any advantage in terminal ballistics has been greatly reduced, at least below thresholds that can be easily measured.

[Hambo]

I listened to part of the podcast. If you start at 30:00 Allard talks about their accurate sighted fire, and goes on about seeing his front sight clearly.

[RevolverRob]

A different time, a different world really.

I easily see FMJ "hardball" defeating barriers that .38 LRN would not (Allard's story of the glass door, for instance). Cirillo thought highly of modern ammunition and even discussed using Supervel whenever possible and didn't mind a smaller caliber, if he could shoot it fast and more, but if you read Kirchner's accounts by Cirillo of Stakeout Squad, Cirillo was very clear to say - Shotgun, M1 Carbine (or M2, they had both back then), then handguns with a preference towards larger caliber (.45) or magnum (.357) rounds was the way to end gunfights.

[HCM]

I listened to part of the podcast. If you start at 30:00 Allard talks about their accurate sighted fire, and goes on about seeing his front sight clearly.

Hambo, you are spot on with this.

I have long maintained much of the effectiveness attributed to .45 acp back in the day was the result of better shot placement due to the “shootability” of the 1911 rather than the .45 being the hammer of Thor.

As another old school gun guy, former African Professsional hunter Finn Agaard said with regard to dangerous game “shot placement is 90 percent of killing power.”

[Lester Polfus]

Hambo, you are spot on with this.

I have long maintained much of the effectiveness attributed to .45 acp back in the day was the result of better shot placement due to the “shootability” of the 1911 rather than the .45 being the hammer of Thor.

As another old school gun guy, former African Professsional hunter Finn Agaard said with regard to dangerous game “shot placement is 90 percent of killing power.”

I've also wondered if people who self selected to carry a 1911 in .45 (or .38 Super for that matter) back in this time period were also more likely to take shooting seriously, and practice, and thus actually hit their target when the shit hammer came down. Although keeping in mind the poor performance of the LRN .38's of the day is also certainly a valid point. It may have been a case of both a better indian, and a better arrow.

[Trooper224]

Most of you are far too myopic and you're missing the real point here. Cirillo and Allard were friends and I sense a lot of giving his buddy a good natured hard time in that statement. Also, debating and refuting ideas and statements from forty years ago is largely a pointless errand. This isn't being offered as a definitive statement on the current state of firearms technology after all. People who carried a 1911 may have been more serious about it? Ever heard of people like Bill Jordan and Jack Weaver?

The real point to be gained here isn't a debate on hardware, but rather as a reflection of a time when the attitudes of law enforcers were quite different than they are today, by and large. Also, would we be better served if more men like Allard and Cirillo were still on the job?

[Wendell]

If you haven't heard this one already, you should.


The ProArms podcast is on the road again. This time we visit the Blue Trail Range in Connecticut. The range has been in existence for over 60 years and now they have been under siege by a developer who wants to shut down the range.
Gail talks with range owner David Lyman about the problems they have been facing. If you would like to follow what’s happening there or can help them out in any way visit SaveblueTrailRange.org (http://savebluetrailrange.org/).

In the second segment Massad and Gail talk to a living legend: Bill Allard. Bill was part of the well known New York City Stake-Out Squad, which was disbanded in the 1970’s. First we talk about the work he is doing now with American Defense Systems, Inc. Then he talks to us about some of his experiences and the mindsetneeded to survive a gunfight. You can read more about Bill Allard and his late partner in Paul Kirchner’s excellent book, “Jim Cirillo’s Tales of the Stakeout Squad.”


<http://proarmspodcast.com/010-save-blue-trail-range-conversation-bill-allard/>

010 Save The Blue Trail Range and a Conversation with Bill Allard
http://proarmspodcast.com/010-save-blue-trail-range-conversation-bill-allard/ (http://proarmspodcast.com/010-save-blue-trail-range-conversation-bill-allard/)

[Rex G]

.38 Special and .45 Auto? Yes, of course, I’ll have one of each, thank you. :) I may be smiling, but I am also serious. These cartridges, and the weapons that chamber them, complement each other.

Bill Allard and Jim Cirillo. Giants, indeed, and a collective inspiration, to me, as a rookie big-city street cop in the mid-Eighties. I finally met, and learned from, Jim Cirillo at the Snubby Summit in 2005.

Finding a long-term-reliable .45 auto pistol, however, was a multi-year struggle, which is largely off-topic for this section of the forum. I mostly used revolvers, for duty and defense, 1983-1997, and have never stopped using revolvers at least part-time, for purposes other than police duty. My final assignment, as a senior police officer, next week, will be worked with a .45 ACP 1911 in my duty holster, loaded with Federal HST Tactical. In retirement, I am hoping my arthritic thumb and wrist continue to tolerate .45 ACP for a while longer.

[JodyH]

Also, would we be better served if more men like Allard and Cirillo were still on the job?
Properly deployed and supported by leadership (modern stakeout squad), yes definitely.
As rank and file patrol in 2018, probably not.

[45dotACP]

That was an awesome listen. I concur with Trooper...anyone who was thinking it's all about 9mm vs. 45 ACP was missing the point when he was talking about the (very interesting) stuff he said about how they aimed head shots, the competition shooting/street dynamic, regular practice, hard front sight focus, and his advice on using a correctly constructed bullet to fight with.

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[deputyG23]

Hambo, you are spot on with this.

I have long maintained much of the effectiveness attributed to .45 acp back in the day was the result of better shot placement due to the “shootability” of the 1911 rather than the .45 being the hammer of Thor.

As another old school gun guy, former African Professsional hunter Finn Agaard said with regard to dangerous game “shot placement is 90 percent of killing power.”
This reminds me of an account I read years ago of a soldier somewhere in Africa back in the ‘70s decking five combatants with one shot each, a la Alvin York, from a Star Model B 9mm, which was a copy of the 1911. Being young, I remember thinking “How could this happen with a 9mm pistol?”
As you stated, the shootability of guns such as these probably account for the successes more than the specific round used.

[Hambo]

This reminds me of an account I read years ago of a soldier somewhere in Africa back in the ‘70s decking five combatants with one shot each, a la Alvin York, from a Star Model B 9mm, which was a copy of the 1911. Being young, I remember thinking “How could this happen with a 9mm pistol?”
As you stated, the shootability of guns such as these probably account for the successes more than the specific round used.

IIRC it was Mas who wrote the story and it was a Star PD .45.

[willie]

The stake out guys ambushed their opponents, and I have no objection to that. My opinion(nothing more)is that their mindset was their stong point.

[Jeep]

They were outstanding shots as well. It's a proven formula: Cherry pick some of your best, toughest and most competitive guys, put them through a tough training program emphasizing shooting and you will get a unit that can wipe the floor with the opposition. The NYPD stakeout squad would have racked up an amazing score if they had been all armed with black powder Navy Colts.

[JAD]

IIRC it was Mas who wrote the story and it was a Star PD .45.

I think it was cooper, Africa, and a 9 Star. Can’t prove it though.

[Wondering Beard]

The stake out guys ambushed their opponents, and I have no objection to that. My opinion(nothing more)is that their mindset was their stong point.

The stakeout unit took many more prisoners than it took lives. That says a whole lot about their mindsets and their capabilities.


ETA: not disagreeing with you, just wanted to point out something that isn't talked about much.

[Mas]

I'm in agreement with JAD and Wondering Beard, above, on both counts.

[BigT]

I think it was cooper, Africa, and a 9 Star. Can’t prove it though.

Would've been a Star model B. I'm trying to remember his name but for some reason I am drawing a blank.

Shot the first mag out weak hand only due to a damaged right hand and then after reloading he went back to his strong hand.

It was more than one shot a target though as I recall.

He was if I remember correctly, an Eland Armoured car commander.

Will post a link as soon as I remember his name.

[BigT]

2nd Lieutenant Van Vuuren

Mention is made on page 4 of this

https://sa-soldier.com/data/09-SADF-links/UnusedPDFs/The%20Battle%20of%20Bridge%2014.pdf


Will try find something more details

[JAD]

It’s heavily covered in Duane Thomas’s 1997 “The Truth about Handguns” but I can’t bring myself to buy a copy.

[Hambo]

I'm in agreement with JAD and Wondering Beard, above, on both counts.

There are probably worse things than confusing you with Cooper. ;) But there's no excuse for forgetting the pistol.

[Lost River]

Hambo, you are spot on with this.

I have long maintained much of the effectiveness attributed to .45 acp back in the day was the result of better shot placement due to the “shootability” of the 1911 rather than the .45 being the hammer of Thor.

As another old school gun guy, former African Professsional hunter Finn Agaard said with regard to dangerous game “shot placement is 90 percent of killing power.”


Finn Aagaard was such a treasure. He never reached the popularity of many others, I believe in part due to the fact that he was not a showman, nor much of a self promoter like Jeff Copper. Aagaard was completely practical in nature. He was a big fan of the 30-06 and later the .308. The comment about " “shot placement is 90 percent of killing power.” is absolutely spot on! I have hunted large game (such as elk) with a .308 for good while now and have read a great many times over the years about how you need larger cartridges, usually at least a 7mm mag, with a .338 being the ideal elk cartridge. But Finn Aagaard's comment about shot placement seems to hold completely true. No matter if you are putting down vehicle struck elk with a .45 or shooting them a few football fields away with a .308.

I miss reading his stuff.

[Lost River]

The stake out guys ambushed their opponents, and I have no objection to that. My opinion(nothing more)is that their mindset was their stong point.




You are right. Mindset was pretty strong. These guys had no issue with getting the job done.

Bottom line:

Don't be a predator committing armed robberies, pointing guns at people and you won't get blasted when the tables suddenly get turned. :cool:

Not only do I have no objection to their methods, I wish more armed robbers would find out what it feels like to suddenly be the victim instead of the victimizer. If a bunch of these earth sacks (PC word for dirt bag) were getting their guts spread over the floor of the local 7-11 on a somewhat frequent basis, I bet it would not take long before word got out, that it was a bad idea to rob people at gun point and robberies would drop off quite dramatically.

[Jim Watson]

Before Cooper went African, he was similarly content with .30-06.

I like C.E. Harris, too. Seems a sensible fellow, he is not going for that last nanometer from the bench, he is loading reasonable stuff to shoot.
So was Jac Weller, he said his objective with a rifle reload was that it should shoot into the same group as factory from prone with a sling at 100 yards.

[willie]

Limiting oneself to shoot within a certain distance has much to do with caliber selection. A 30-06 might not suffice at 300 yards, but one of the .30 magnums probably would. I'm not a rifleman and limited my shots to 150 yards regardless of the caliber. Now I speak as an arm chair sportsman so had best limit any other comments to shooting rocks, dirt clods, and stumps. I promise not to repeat the already told true story about my shooting a flying bird with an AR.

[Spartan1980]

If my memory serves Jack O’Conner loved the .270 Winchester for elk and sung it’s praises for years. I never got the pleasure of shooting one with mine but I have no doubt it would do fine with a Partition or similar bullet.

Lots of calibers work fine when you get the right shot and hit but it seems we are always searching for that better mousetrap instead of obtaining a solid skill set.


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[Jim Watson]

Ol Jack also wrote that if there were bears about he would carry a .30. "I can't leave camp with a .30-06 in my mitts without running over a bear." He thought .375 H&H was a big powerful gun for all African game, too.

[Lost River]

If my memory serves Jack O’Conner loved the .270 Winchester for elk and sung it’s praises for years. I never got the pleasure of shooting one with mine but I have no doubt it would do fine with a Partition or similar bullet.

Lots of calibers work fine when you get the right shot and hit but it seems we are always searching for that better mousetrap instead of obtaining a solid skill set.


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Growing up, all I hunted with was the .270. My dad loaded nothing but 130 Partitions for Mule Deer, and 150 Partitions for elk. My mom and dad both carried .270s. My mom put down some big bulls with her old Savage 110. My dad had a cheap surplus 1917 Enfield he had rebuilt into a .270 sometime before I was born. The first centerfire rifle I purchased for myself after working on an outfitter and guide ranch in the Frank Church was a Browning .270.


https://i.imgur.com/XQfkCPa.jpg


It was only when I was in college that the rifle bug really bit.

Soooo much money wasted lol :rolleyes:

[GJM]

Growing up, all I hunted with was the .270. My dad loaded nothing but 130 Partitions for Mule Deer, and 150 Partitions for elk. My mom and dad both carried .270s. My mom put down some big bulls with her old Savage 110. My dad had a cheap surplus 1917 Enfield he had rebuilt into a .270 sometime before I was born. The first centerfire rifle I purchased for myself after working on an outfitter and guide ranch in the Frank Church was a Browning .270.


https://i.imgur.com/XQfkCPa.jpg


It was only when I was in college that the rifle bug really bit.

Soooo much money wasted lol :rolleyes:


Think about how much better you would have turned out if you started and ended up with just a pre 64 model 70 in .270. :p

[WDR]

If my memory serves Jack O’Conner loved the .270 Winchester for elk and sung it’s praises for years. I never got the pleasure of shooting one with mine but I have no doubt it would do fine with a Partition or similar bullet.

Lots of calibers work fine when you get the right shot and hit but it seems we are always searching for that better mousetrap instead of obtaining a solid skill set.


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A buddy of mine started carrying and shooting a super lightweight .270, and shooting 130gr Hornady Whitetail soft points (because they happen to shoot exceptionally well for him), which are a non-bonded old school cup and core bullet... He's killed several elk, and plenty of other lesser animals with that gun/load now, with single shots. Good shots with adequate bullets will get the job done. Plenty of game is still killed with "old crappy cup and core bullets" these days. Contrary to popular belief, elk are not bulletproof.

He used to shoot a .338 Winchester Magnum with 250gr Nosler Partition bullets for everything... And I watched that big cannon fail to anchor a couple antelope and deer with some rather high hits, high enough to hit the spine, or at least "knock" the animals down, only to have them get up an run off again. He had the gun sighted in quite high, as most shots were at longer range, in the area we hunt. The hits were probably still 100% lethal, but other the knocking things down, I don't think the big boomer helped him any, most of the time. He wised up, and generally only carries that big bore on late season cow hunts, where he doesn't have to hike far with a heavy rifle.

I started hunting big game with a .30-06, and will probably not change that any time soon. I found a load with 180gr Nosler Accubonds that shoots very well, and it has successfully anchored a pile of antelope, deer, and elk, including a big cow at 425 yards! I found one of my two bullets that I hit that cow with, on the far side, just under the hide, fully expanded like a Nosler advertisement picture. I think the other one punched all the way through.

Moral of the story: Shoot a gun you can shoot well, and put the bullets where they need to go, and you'll have a full freezer. Marksmanship matters a hell of a lot more than what bullet you are shooting.

[GJM]

I think the main benefit of .270 and .300 magnum calibers is flattening trajectory to better place a shot rather than additional killing power from the magnum.

[Duelist]

Limiting oneself to shoot within a certain distance has much to do with caliber selection. A 30-06 might not suffice at 300 yards, but one of the .30 magnums probably would. I'm not a rifleman and limited my shots to 150 yards regardless of the caliber. Now I speak as an arm chair sportsman so had best limit any other comments to shooting rocks, dirt clods, and stumps. I promise not to repeat the already told true story about my shooting a flying bird with an AR.

I cannot think of a thing in North America that would not be completely handled well beyond 300yds by a properly placed bullet from a .30’06.

[Trooper224]

I cannot think of a thing in North America that would not be completely handled well beyond 300yds by a properly placed bullet from a .30’06.

I decided a long time ago that if I couldn't do it with a .30-06 it didn't need to be done.

[GJM]

I decided a long time ago that if I couldn't do it with a .30-06 it didn't need to be done.

I had a pre 64 model 70 that started life in .308. That was a little odd as the action is full length. I shot a number of whitetail with it. Then it became a .338-06 went to BC and harvested a goat. Then it became a .30-06, harvested mule deer, and SteveB got it from me, took it to Africa and harvested plains game with it. I then built another Brockman pre 64 .06 and Darryl wrangled it away from me. I think I need another one that I engrave my name on.

[Duelist]

I had a pre 64 model 70 that started life in .308. That was a little odd as the action is full length. I shot a number of whitetail with it. Then it became a .338-06 went to BC and harvested a goat. Then it became a .30-06, harvested mule deer, and SteveB got it from me, took it to Africa and harvested plains game with it. I then built another Brockman pre 64 .06 and Darryl wrangled it away from me. I think I need another one that I engrave my name on.

I love my Model 70, and you are not an insignificant part of why I bought it.

[feudist]

I decided a long time ago that if I couldn't do it with a .30-06 it didn't need to be done.

That, or 700 dollars.