Atty General Sessions and the Federal marijuana policy

[Lex Luthier]

Reading the Steve-Bannon-Turns-On-Trump (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29252-Steve-Bannon-Turns-On-Trump) thread just now and seeing how Jeff Sessions Marijuana policy remarks came in to the discussion made me think on one possible angle.
Yeah, we know he's an enthusiastic Drug Warrior of long standing...but we also know that California just passed a statewide Sanctuary City law and also implemented a legal recreational Marijuana law, both of which went into effect on January 1st.
Is it at all likely -or even possible- that lawfare battle-space is being prepared by the Fed Gov to start whacking at the CA legislature?

[ranger]

In my world travels, I visited a few areas where there was no "rule of law" - that was not a good place to be a little guy. I always thought what made America great was "rule of law". I think if we have a law, it should be enforced and enforced equally across all demographics, political parties, etc.

During the past 8 years, it seems to me that as a nation we picked and chose winners and losers based on which laws we chose to enforce. Do not like conservatives, weaponized the IRS against them. Like illegal immigrants, develop sanctuary cities or now states. If marijuana is illegal, well just ignore the law.

My new years wish is enforce ALL laws equally. If you do not like a law, then work within the legal process to have the law changed or removed.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This is an interesting issue.

How does one analyze the states' liberalization of marijuana usage vs. states trying protect against what seem to be unconstitutional restrictions on the RKBA: http://gunwars.news21.com/2014/eight-states-have-passed-laws-voiding-federal-firearms-regulations/ ?

One can argue states' rights but in the case of civil rights legislation, the Federal government acting against states limited freedom on the basis of race was quite OK with most of the country and what I think was a good use of Federal power.

In the gun and grass cases, the Feds are trying to limit individual rights and the states can resist with moral force in their arguments. I see no difference between the two. Certainly there may be misuse of guns and grass but liberty is more important as said in the other thread.

Trying to punish states or cities with grass laws because you don't like their sanctuary city policies is childish. Deal with each issue on their own merits.

It comes down the social control zealots of each party trying to push their own anti-liberty crap.

[D.O.A.F.S.]

In my world travels, I visited a few areas where there was no "rule of law" - that was not a good place to be a little guy. I always thought what made America great was "rule of law". I think if we have a law, it should be enforced and enforced equally across all demographics, political parties, etc.

During the past 8 years, it seems to me that as a nation we picked and chose winners and losers based on which laws we chose to enforce. Do not like conservatives, weaponized the IRS against them. Like illegal immigrants, develop sanctuary cities or now states. If marijuana is illegal, well just ignore the law.

My new years wish is enforce ALL laws equally. If you do not like a law, then work within the legal process to have the law changed or removed.

Well said my friend!

[blues]

Problem is that there are so many laws on the books that if they were all enforced equally nobody could venture outdoors, the courts would be swamped, the jails would be filled to overflowing and we'd need a century or two to pare the laws down to a manageable number.

I don't see it happening anytime soon. Law enforcement will always require discretion and the means of using the law wisely to accomplish what is (hopefully) a higher good.

We've long ago left the simple laws as enumerated on the tablets behind.


ETA:

Regarding the marijuana laws and states like CA, I don't put it past this (or pretty much any) administration to use their clout for the satisfaction of personal grievances and/or vendettas though one would hope that such would not be done frivolously and without the good of the nation as the goal. (Yeah, right.)

[Dagga Boy]

I just wish Texas would counter the California Recreational/Medical Marijuana with Recreational/Medical Suppressor legalization.

[DallasBronco]

I've mentioned before, that one reason I think the feds haven't gone after California and Colorado is they may lose this as it is a state's rights issue and therefore federal drug laws could get struck down as violations of the 10th Amendment. There is nothing in the enumerated powers that give jurisdiction of this to the fed gov't.

[joshs]

I've mentioned before, that one reason I think the feds haven't gone after California and Colorado is they may lose this as it is a state's rights issue and therefore federal drug laws could get struck down as violations of the 10th Amendment. There is nothing in the enumerated powers that give jurisdiction of this to the fed gov't.

Already happened. The California residents lost. See Gonzales v. Raich, 545 U.S. 1(2005).

[Nephrology]

Sessions is too late, IMO. The genie is out of the bottle. As of about a week ago, a $5.2bn marijuana market just opened for business.

There is already vociferous (and and uniquely bipartisan) opposition to the announced changes in enforcement. With the highly mercurial Trump in office who already has a high degree of animosity towards Sessions, a unique sensitivity to his popularity ratings and a willingness to totally abandon his positions at the drop of a hat, I am betting this goes nowhere.

I've been in Colorado for 2 years, really no objection whatsoever to legal recreational pot. In the ER, marijuana is responsible for a small number of visits and they are either unique (i.e. Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_syndrome)) or hilarious (tourists who ate too much pot food and really love our warm blankets and 2% milk cartons). Alcohol and meth are responsible for the vast majority of intoxicant related complaints, with heroin coming third.

Despite all the concern for THC DUI, I've never actually seen a patient in PD custody for this reason. As the city/county hospital ER we get all of the pre-detention medical visits so I have seen plenty of good old fashioned alcohol DUIs, never one for pot. Purely anecdotal, so take this all with a big old grain of salt.

[JodyH]

The previous administration loved chaos and anarchy because their end game requires a breakdown of civility.
If the current administration wants to turn things around they have to begin enforcing the laws as written.

I hate a bunch of the laws on the books and think they're nothing but means to an end for the politically connected, but I try to pretend to follow most of them.
You want change? Go about it the right way and we'll all benefit in the long run.

[Nephrology]

Also, for reference, here are the CO marijuana tax revenues by year :

2014 $67,594,323
2015 $130,411,173
2016 $193,604,810
2017 (Jan-Nov) $226,157,028

Taxed at 15% (medical at standard state sales tax rate of 2.9%).

Now consider that the population of California is greater than that of all of the states with legal marijuana combined.There's a lot of money that is about to be made, both by marijuana dispensaries/growers/etc and by the state gov't. I predict there will be some big changes at the federal level sooner than later...

[DallasBronco]

Already happened. The California residents lost. See Gonzales v. Raich, 545 U.S. 1(2005).

Thanks for that info. I was not aware of that. I can't say I really agree with their finding, but I read Justice Scalia's Concurrence and saw what direction they used in their finding, and I really respect him.

[OlongJohnson]

I figured the Feds let it go because once a person buys into that, the government owns them. It doesn't have to enforce anything, so it costs no money up front. But if in the course of time, an individual should happen to become inconvenient for any reason after having become involved in the marijuana trade, the Feds can take his house, his vehicles, his bank accounts, his firearms and his freedom. It can destroy him and make him disappear for years. Why wouldn't the Fed want as many people as possible to volunteer to be on that list?

[idahojess]

Just so everyone doesn't get caught up in the rhetoric too much, here is the memo from Sessions that ended the Cole memo. It is quite inflammatory (not).
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1022196/download

The Cole memo, in my view, was essentially a political document issued by the Holder Justice Department, that entirely disregarded the Justice Department's duty to enforce federal law as best it could, not rewrite it.
https://www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resources/3052013829132756857467.pdf

I think there's lots of good policy arguments for changing the status of marijuana, particularly for medical usage. But those changes need to be made by Congress, not the Executive branch.

[CWM11B]

First off, I really do not care if marijuana is legalized, but I do take exception to all the "It's perfectly harmless" bullshit. The primary method of ingestion for this drug is smoking. Yes, smoking. So smoking tobacco was bad, perpetrated on us NOT by free will/choice but by evil profit driven capitalists who sought to hook children and kill us all. So, what is the difference between marijuana smoke and tobacco smoke? Carbon monoxide is carbon monoxide, is it not? According to the American Lung Association, all smoke inhalation, regardless of source, is full of potential carcinogens. So don't tell me that MJ smoke is good but tobacco is bad (I've never smoked a cigarette in my life and have no desire either). I watched my state's economy and especially my city's take an enormous hit when tobacco was demonized. When the "It's my choice/Free will/My right argument was presented by the smokers, guess what? They had no rights because the powers that were against them had the SJW mentality and that your smoking was a public health hazard due to second hand smoke. Now, in a city that was literally built on tobacco, you cannot even have a private club which allows smoking. The hypocrisy of the pro dope/anti smoking crowd is amazing. I say that as many of the pro MJ folks were the same types leading the charge against tobacco.

As for DWI and dope, Nephrology, just because you have not seen any ER visits due to this does not mean they have not happened. I personally made two arrests solely on MJ impaired driving, and that was long before the legalization movement had the steam it does now. We now have DREs to target drug impairment specifically. Another reason you do not hear about it much, at least from my perspective, is that many drug impaired drivers have plenty of alcohol on board as well, as it seems to go hand in hand. Unless there was a fatality involved, or it was a habitual offender (presence of drugs was an aggravating factor for sentencing) I rarely did a blood test if I had an alcohol threshold to make the charge. Additionally, unless the patient you treat for an MVA is impaired, you will likely not know if MJ was a cause of the accident. I saw a shitload of folks off the the hospital via ambulance when the unscathed impaired driver went to jail. If anything, when asking what happened you may have just heard "they were hit by a DWI" It was pretty generic vernacular in my time.

As far as legalization, go for it but with a caveat: You smoke/shoot/inject/drink/snort it, you own it. No fucking narcan, no excuses for criminal activity perpetrated while under the influence, and in the case of the hard narcs a big fat DNR tattooed on your chest for when (not if) you eventually gork out on the shit. I agree, it is your decision, but with it comes responsibility and accountability. You don't get a free pass and I sure as shit do not want to pay for your bad decisions. I do believe the war on drugs is a huge waste of time and resources, but too much money is being made on both sides of the aisle (a whole other topic/thread) to end it. I know. I was one of the many involved in it for years, first as a Coast Guard Boarding Officer in the Caribbean during the height of it, then on a street level narc unit for several years. I have made hundreds of arrests, both dealers and users, and nothing is going to stop people who want to use from using. And again, I do not care as long as your activities do not harm the innocent. But I am also weary of hearing the "its no worse than..." argument. I (and any other LEO who deals with it first hand) can regale those interested with nightmare stories to infinity of the damage wrought by ALL intoxicants used by humans.

On another note, once legalized we have about a bajillion square foot cigarette manufacturing plant sitting idol and ready to fire up. At least my town will be rolling in dough again! Note there is sarcasm in this post, and no intention of insulting or calling anyone out. Just personal observations based on a lifetime of military and LE service. Worth what it cost you, feel free to disregard at will.

[txdpd]

If the Feds want to do something about state legalized mairjuana, they won't waste there time fighting state legislatures, they will go after the big piles of cash laying around. What would amount to essentially a 100% tax bracket via civil asset forfeiture would nip the domestic MJ market in the bud

[Frank Ettin]

....My new years wish is enforce ALL laws equally.....The thing is that in the real world that won't be happening, and probably never has happened.

There's a very well established principle in the law called "prosecutorial discretion." Basically a prosecuting authority has broad discretion to decide if, when, and how to prosecute. It's based on the facts that (1) resources available to investigate and prosecute crimes are limited; and (2) the different uses to which those limited resources might be put will need to be prioritized. See, for example, the memo from Sessions (https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1022196/download) linked to in post 14.


...It comes down the social control zealots of each party trying to push their own anti-liberty crap.As H. L. Mencken put it, “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

[orionz06]

Despite all the concern for THC DUI, I've never actually seen a patient in PD custody for this reason. As the city/county hospital ER we get all of the pre-detention medical visits so I have seen plenty of good old fashioned alcohol DUIs, never one for pot. Purely anecdotal, so take this all with a big old grain of salt.

But what about that one guy who injected three marijuanas and his whole family died?

[hufnagel]

CWM11B

Rather sharp and defining, but I agree with the sentiment. One must take personal responsibility for one's actions. If the consumption of a drug results in a negative patient outcome then should we be forced to save them?

[Nephrology]

[discussion of cannabis health effects]

re: the health harms of marijuana, the jury is still out in many arenas. However, to summarize a rapidly growing body of knowledge, so far the evidence suggests that it is not as harmful as once thought. To quote an article (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25996274) written by the director of our MICU (and faculty at the #1 center for pulmonolog (https://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings)y in the US)


Together, these epidemiologic data imply that modest consumption of cannabis may have a minimal impact on lung health.

So, I am confident in saying that on that level it is really not worse than what you can already get at a 7-11 in most states.

Not to mention, the advent of legalization created a whole cottage industry of less harmful ways to ingest pot, including edibles and vaporized oil extracts. This has reduced harm, if anything, but I won't deny either that most people smoke it and there is no getting around that you shouldn't be inhaling a combustion reaction if you have a say in the matter. Still, the data is what it is.




As for DWI and dope, Nephrology, just because you have not seen any ER visits due to this does not mean they have not happened.

I certainly agree, hence my qualification of my post (big grain of salt). I am simply providing what I have seen first hand in how it affects the health of the lower income citizens of my metro area, where pot has been legal for 4 years now. If it was gonna fuck up anyone's life, it would be my patient population's.

The big killers here (as are probably out where you live) are alcohol, meth, and opiates, mixed in with a health dose of Bad Choices. I definitely see people who are high and get arrested, and pot certainly doesn't improve your coordination when you have a BAL 3x the legal limit. I don't take any of what you write personally and don't invalidate your feelings on the subject, just offering my piece of the puzzle.

[Odin Bravo One]

I believe Sessions to be much the same idiot as his predecessor. Different agenda, but very little measurable good for the little people will come from his tenure at the head of the DOJ.

[Sensei]

Despite all the concern for THC DUI, I've never actually seen a patient in PD custody for this reason. As the city/county hospital ER we get all of the pre-detention medical visits so I have seen plenty of good old fashioned alcohol DUIs, never one for pot. Purely anecdotal, so take this all with a big old grain of salt.

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/25/colorado-marijuana-traffic-fatalities/

...and then there is this:

https://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/23/drug-child-welfare-cases-colorado-have-increased-in-colorado-but-connection-to-legalized-marijuana-is-unclear/

[beenalongtime]

Why haven't I seen any stories about federal seizures in these states? Especially since the money can't be banked or sent through normal financial institutions?

[Nephrology]

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/25/colorado-marijuana-traffic-fatalities/

...and then there is this:

https://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/23/drug-child-welfare-cases-colorado-have-increased-in-colorado-but-connection-to-legalized-marijuana-is-unclear/

Again, not saying it doesn't happen - but it's not something I've seen to the extent you'd expect in my narrow slice of the world. I don't use marijuana and I certainly don't think it's safe to get high and drive, which I hope is clear. Denver's drivers are among the worst I've ever shared the road with, and I don't think pot is helping, but it's not a pandemic either.

[Stephanie B]

My guess is that we won't see many Federal cases being brought in states that have legalized marijuana. The risk of trying the case and then having the jury either deadlock or come back with a not-guilty verdict on the basis of "what are we doing here, we voted to make this shit legal" is high enough to make bringing the cases a dicey call.

And hell, maybe a Federal grand jury might no-bill the case for the same reason.

[JodyH]

My guess is that we won't see many Federal cases being brought in states that have legalized marijuana. The risk of trying the case and then having the jury either deadlock or come back with a not-guilty verdict on the basis of "what are we doing here, we voted to make this shit legal" is high enough to make bringing the cases a dicey call.

And hell, maybe a Federal grand jury might no-bill the case for the same reason.

They got Al Capone on tax evasion not Prohibition violations.
They'll do the same to the MJ dispensers.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Jury nullification opposed to an injust prosecution is not an unknown effect. IIRC, during slavery times - northerners resisted the 'legal' slave catchers from the South (sometimes with force of arms). Juries in those states refused to convict when the resisters were brought to trial.

[Stephanie B]

They got Al Capone on tax evasion not Prohibition violations.
They'll do the same to the MJ dispensers.

Only if they are that stupid. Last time I checked, CO collected a quarter-billion for the last year reported.

[hufnagel]

I'll be curious to see how that works. Declaring income from the sale of federally illegal goods seems like a pretty unintelligent thing to do (Al Capone) but then what do I know? Or is everyone listing their income as from sales of "machine parts?" :D

[David S.]

Jury nullification opposed to an injust prosecution is not an unknown effect. IIRC, during slavery times - northerners resisted the 'legal' slave catchers from the South (sometimes with force of arms). Juries in those states refused to convict when the resisters were brought to trial.

OTOH, I don’t think judy nullification is not a widely known thing among the masses. I’d consider myself slightly more educated than than the average person and I hadn’t heard of it til about 6 months ago.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I don't think they have to know the term - they might just go with a gut feeling. However, if there is a wave of arrests, you can bet social media today will be full of the doctrine. Every store will probably put up a poster.

With 75% of Democrats, 60% of Independents and 50% of Republicans favoring legalization, and then folks just being mad at Federal heavy hands in their business - voir dire will be a fun adventure for the prosecution.

[RevolverRob]

I'll be curious to see how that works. Declaring income from the sale of federally illegal goods seems like a pretty unintelligent thing to do (Al Capone) but then what do I know? Or is everyone listing their income as from sales of "machine parts?" :D

IRS isn't tasked with enforcing the laws against how you make your income, only the laws that you pay taxes on your income. "Self-Employed" was a legitimate employment line on the 2017 1040...I can't imagine it isn't a legitimate line in 2018. There is also "gambling" and "sales of goods"...

So you don't have to write, "I sell marijuana." on your tax return. And even if you did or wrote, "Meth distribution and wholesale" - if your tax check balances against claimed income and all your forms are in order, it'll take the IRS a while to send a note to the DEA.

Honestly, if Al Capone had just filed tax returns with reflections of money made in illegal alcohol trafficking as "gambling" income. He wouldn't have ever been convicted. As it was, it was because he was found with two sets of books...Just report the income (illicitly gained or not) and pay taxes on it and avoid the Capone problem.

[Peally]

avoid the Capone problem.

Alternatively don't be the Al Capone type and the feds won't ambush your ass with machine guns in the bushes ;)

22885

[BobLoblaw]

Alternatively don't be the Al Capone type and the feds won't ambush your ass with machine guns in the bushes ;)

I thought the lesson with Capone was to wear condoms and get tested for VDs if you're having sex with whores on the regular or you may suffer severe degradation to the gray matter.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Maybe AG Jeff could read this piece by Greg:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/peace-officers-vs-law-enforcement-officers

Lots of common sense in it.

[Totem Polar]

Maybe AG Jeff could read this piece by Greg:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/peace-officers-vs-law-enforcement-officers

Lots of common sense in it.

I like Greg. This particular example of his educational writing reminds me of this:

Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy: In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.

[blues]

I like Greg. This particular example of his educational writing reminds me of this:

Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy: In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.

Ain't it the truth. On the bright side, it did give me a reason to retire early. So there's that.

[Stephanie B]

Add to that the issue of what happens when the local cops stop cooperating with the feds under the orders of their bosses, who, unlike Sessions, are accountable to the local voters.

DEA: "We need you guys to back us up on a rate of a local marijuana dispensary."

Local cops: "Sorry, but we're busy. The mayor has us cracking down on speeders on the highway and doing safety inspections in the local donut shops."


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[TC215]

IRS isn't tasked with enforcing the laws against how you make your income, only the laws that you pay taxes on your income. "Self-Employed" was a legitimate employment line on the 2017 1040...I can't imagine it isn't a legitimate line in 2018. There is also "gambling" and "sales of goods"...

So you don't have to write, "I sell marijuana." on your tax return. And even if you did or wrote, "Meth distribution and wholesale" - if your tax check balances against claimed income and all your forms are in order, it'll take the IRS a while to send a note to the DEA.

Honestly, if Al Capone had just filed tax returns with reflections of money made in illegal alcohol trafficking as "gambling" income. He wouldn't have ever been convicted. As it was, it was because he was found with two sets of books...Just report the income (illicitly gained or not) and pay taxes on it and avoid the Capone problem.

Most of the time it’s not the “IRS sending a note to the DEA”, it’s the DEA contacting the IRS. It’s pretty common to ask IRS special agents to handle aspects of the money-side of drug investigations.

[blues]

Add to that the issue of what happens when the local cops stop cooperating with the feds under the orders of their bosses, who, unlike Sessions, are accountable to the local voters.

DEA: "We need you guys to back us up on a rate of a local marijuana dispensary."

Local cops: "Sorry, but we're busy. The mayor has us cracking down on speeders on the highway and doing safety inspections in the local donut shops."


Sent from my NSA-approved tracking device via Tapatalk

I wonder how the threshold will change. When I was working in South FL, we couldn't take a marijuana case federal if it was under 5,000 lbs.

Miami-Dade was under no such constraints and we'd turn over such cases to them if they wanted them.

[TC215]

Our USAO won’t take anything under 2,000 pounds.

Sometimes, if we get someone with an extensive criminal history, and they have an amount of marijuana less than the threshold but also have a gun, they’ll indict on the marijuana and possession of a firearm in furtherance of drug trafficking. But that doesn’t happen too often.

[blues]

Our USAO won’t take anything under 2,000 pounds.

Sometimes, if we get someone with an extensive criminal history, and they have an amount of marijuana less than the threshold but also have a gun, they’ll indict on the marijuana and possession of a firearm in furtherance of drug trafficking. But that doesn’t happen too often.

That makes sense. Do you guys have a task force like we used to have, made up of local and federal so that you can use each other's jurisdiction?

I always enjoyed working in the task forces...whether the "South FL Joint Task Group" established under Bush I, or later HIDTA.

Went a long way toward more effective enforcement, and, at least in my experience, enhanced the relationships between the various agencies under the umbrella.

[TC215]

That makes sense. Do you guys have a task force like we used to have, made up of local and federal so that you can use each other's jurisdiction?

I always enjoyed working in the task forces...whether the "South FL Joint Task Group" established under Bush I, or later HIDTA.

Went a long way toward more effective enforcement, and, at least in my experience, enhanced the relationships between the various agencies under the umbrella.

Yep, we are part of an FBI gang/violent crime task force and a DEA/HIDTA task force. We have a full-time TFO at each task force, and pretty much everyone else in the drug unit have been deputized as part-time TFO’s. The task forces are probably the best thing we have going for us.

[blues]

Yep, we are part of an FBI gang/violent crime task force and a DEA/HIDTA task force. We have a full-time TFO at each task force, and pretty much everyone else in the drug unit have been deputized as part-time TFO’s. The task forces are probably the best thing we have going for us.

Awesome. I will say I don't miss all the paperwork, (for two agencies, the lab and the warehouse), nor the time spent at the lab and secure (U/C) warehouse and all the chain of custody rigmarole. (Nor transporting prisoners in the middle of the night for that matter and waiting on FDC to process followed by initial appearance in the morning.)

[idahojess]

Alternatively don't be the Al Capone type and the feds won't ambush your ass with machine guns in the bushes ;)

22885

Those weren't the Feds that did that....

[Peally]

Those weren't the Feds that did that....

Times are a changin'

[TR675]

Anecdotally, here in Red Texas some defense attorneys are reporting busting jury panels and even securing acquittals because the veniremen/jurors are flat refusing to convict people for possession of personal use amounts of weed.


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[CWM11B]

Add to that the issue of what happens when the local cops stop cooperating with the feds under the orders of their bosses, who, unlike Sessions, are accountable to the local voters.

DEA: "We need you guys to back us up on a rate of a local marijuana dispensary."

Local cops: "Sorry, but we're busy. The mayor has us cracking down on speeders on the highway and doing safety inspections in the local donut shops."


Sent from my NSA-approved tracking device via Tapatalk

The raid goes on with other assets if the case is important to them. Then, when the next big block grant comes around guess who doesn't get a piece of the pie? Or when it comes time for said local agency to need assistance, whose going to be to busy now? The feds don't usually bother with anything that isn't huge. I really don't see them making a big effort on the Cheech and Chong states unless, as previously stated, those tax returns don't reflect properly.

[Nephrology]

The raid goes on with other assets if the case is important to them. Then, when the next big block grant comes around guess who doesn't get a piece of the pie? Or when it comes time for said local agency to need assistance, whose going to be to busy now? The feds don't usually bother with anything that isn't huge. I really don't see them making a big effort on the Cheech and Chong states unless, as previously stated, those tax returns don't reflect properly.

I mean, in theory (which I am pulling out of my ass as I know nothing about the law), aren't the state tax revenues money made off the sale of an illegal drug? in 2017 in Colorado that exceeded $200mil. Wouldn't that be the first place they'd start?

[CWM11B]

Beats me doc. I'm just speculating that the feds aren't going after the businesses/individuals unless they don't file their federal taxes properly.

[Odin Bravo One]

Alternatively don't be the Al Capone type and the feds won't ambush your ass with machine guns in the bushes ;)

22885

I bet Randy Weaver would disagree.

[Peally]

I bet Randy Weaver would disagree.

I would say he made quite a few poor life choices himself that led to that soup sandwich.

[critter]

I wonder how the threshold will change. When I was working in South FL, we couldn't take a marijuana case federal if it was under 5,000 lbs.

Miami-Dade was under no such constraints and we'd turn over such cases to them if they wanted them.

Hooooly crap... I can't even imagine what 5,000lbs of pot would look like...

[TGS]

I mean, in theory (which I am pulling out of my ass as I know nothing about the law), aren't the state tax revenues money made off the sale of an illegal drug? in 2017 in Colorado that exceeded $200mil. Wouldn't that be the first place they'd start?

They could certainly seize the assets. Ill gotten gains, all that.

It'd certainly start a hell of a states vs .gov rights war.

[hufnagel]

Hooooly crap... I can't even imagine what 5,000lbs of pot would look like...

http://fox5sandiego.com/2013/10/27/traffic-stop-yields-5000-pounds-of-marijuana/

something like this?

https://tribkswb.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/chulavistapotbust.jpg?quality=85&strip=all

[LSP552]

Hooooly crap... I can't even imagine what 5,000lbs of pot would look like...

I can tell you what 80 tons looks like. Think barge.

[Totem Polar]

I would say he made quite a few poor life choices himself that led to that soup sandwich.

I was a N. Idaho resident at the time that all went down, so I followed it pretty closely. JMO: Randy Weaver was probably an asshole who deserved the failure to appear charge, but I wouldn't personally cross the street to piss on Lon Horiuchi if he was on fire. Maybe someone here has worked with and knows the the guy personally and can successfully disabuse me of that opinion, but the whole thing was controversial for a reason.

At this point, I will say that my posting history suggests, rightfully so, that I am a pretty strong supporter of LE. But when someone cocks it up, they cock it up, and that was not the Fed's finest hour. Again, JMO.

[Peally]

I was a N. Idaho resident at the time that all went down, so I followed it pretty closely. JMO: Randy Weaver was probably an asshole who deserved the failure to appear charge, but I wouldn't personally cross the street to piss on Lon Horiuchi if he was on fire. Maybe someone here has worked with and knows the the guy personally and can successfully disabuse me of that opinion, but the whole thing was controversial for a reason.

At this point, I will say that my posting history suggests, rightfully so, that I am a pretty strong supporter of LE. But when someone cocks it up, they cock it up, and that was not the Fed's finest hour. Again, JMO.

For sure, just sayin' don't invite the man into your life by being a nazi :D

[CWM11B]

Agree it was a FUBAR, but not the FBIs. They got called in to clean up a mess. Horihuci's shot, tragic as it was, did not target Mrs. Weaver. I sat through a detailed debrief of that incident as well as Waco. It was LE only and given by guys who were there.They were candid and brutally honest about the things that went wrong. I've also met both Horihuchi and Weaver personally and talked to both of them for about a half hour. We aren't buds and neither would remember it. Both have their accounts and the truth is somewhere in between. If there is blame to be had I am of the opinion it rests firmly in the DOJ under Reno. She set the tone that led to such travestys as Ruby Ridge, Waco, and the Elian Gonzales debacle. I don't seek to change anyone's mind on the events, but the sound bites vs. the volumes of information in the investigation are very different stories. Thread drift, my apologies.

[Totem Polar]

For sure, just sayin' don't invite the man into your life by being a nazi :D

There is that. #Truth (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=Truth) .


Agree it was a FUBAR, but not the FBIs. They got called in to clean up a mess. Horihuci's shot, tragic as it was, did not target Mrs. Weaver. I sat through a detailed debrief of that incident as well as Waco. It was LE only and given by guys who were there.They were candid and brutally honest about the things that went wrong. I've also met both Horihuchi and Weaver personally and talked to both of them for about a half hour. We aren't buds and neither would remember it. Both have their accounts and the truth is somewhere in between. If there is blame to be had I am of the opinion it rests firmly in the DOJ under Reno. She set the tone that led to such travestys as Ruby Ridge, Waco, and the Elian Gonzales debacle. I don't seek to change anyone's mind on the events, but the sound bites vs. the volumes of information in the investigation are very different stories. Thread drift, my apologies.

Thanks for the insight, I appreciate it. It was a subject of considerable contention locally. As to Reno, I hear you loud and clear. Her, I might just actually cross the street to piss on... I mean, assuming I ever end up across the street from her grave for some insane reason. At any rate, glad you weighed in.

[idahojess]

If there is blame to be had I am of the opinion it rests firmly in the DOJ under Reno. She set the tone that led to such travestys as Ruby Ridge, Waco, and the Elian Gonzales debacle. I don't seek to change anyone's mind on the events, but the sound bites vs. the volumes of information in the investigation are very different stories.

No fan of Reno's but Ruby Ridge was in '92, right? Reno took office under Clinton in 93.

AG's office under Bush 1 was under William Barr at that time right? On topic, there's an AG no one remembers! (or at least I don't).

[OlongJohnson]

I mean, in theory (which I am pulling out of my ass as I know nothing about the law), aren't the state tax revenues money made off the sale of an illegal drug? in 2017 in Colorado that exceeded $200mil. Wouldn't that be the first place they'd start?

RICO activities against the state governments?

[Totem Polar]

No fan of Reno's but Ruby Ridge was in '92, right? Reno took office under Clinton in 93...


Ruby was def ‘92. I’ll assume that you are correct and that Reno was still sticking it to people as FL state’s atty then.

[blues]

No fan of Reno's but Ruby Ridge was in '92, right? Reno took office under Clinton in 93.

AG's office under Bush 1 was under William Barr at that time right? On topic, there's an AG no one remembers! (or at least I don't).

I remember him. He and Bush 41 flew into Homestead AFB in either the late 80's or very early 90's where our Air Smuggling Unit was located...and we were invited to attend speeches by both given outdoors on a parade ground.

[Totem Polar]

^^^how were the speeches?

[Drang]

I remember him. He and Bush 41 flew into Homestead AFB in either the late 80's or very early 90's where our Air Smuggling Unit was located...and we were invited to attend speeches by both given outdoors on a parade ground.

Were you invited, or... "invited"?

[blues]

^^^how were the speeches?

Boring beyond words. I couldn't wait to get back to work. (And I was miffed I had to attend the event unarmed despite having worked details for the Secret Service on presidential campaigns previously.)

(I do have a soft spot for 41, however, and have a very nice certificate of appreciation signed by him for my time working on the Florida Joint Task Group which was established by then V.P. Bush during the Reagan administration. He was president when he signed it, however.)

[blues]

Were you invited, or... "invited"?

I was ordered. ;)

[Drang]

At east they were honest about it.

SecDef and some other suit came to Camp Stanley, ROK, in 2000, sadly, I had an appointment at ACAP that day...

[Totem Polar]

41 strikes me as having some real balls.

So, you had to have worked under Reno, yes?

[Drang]

41 strikes me as having some real balls.
Look up the survival rates of torpedo bomber flight crews in WWII sometime...

[blues]

41 strikes me as having some real balls.

So, you had to have worked under Reno, yes?

Not in any kind of direct capacity. How she influenced things at the HQ level was outside of my day to day activity.

I was already living and working in South FL while she was State Attorney in FL...and was around for the whole Elian Gonzalez debacle while she was AG, though I had no direct involvement, thankfully.

[idahojess]

RICO activities against the state governments?


Back before the 2013 Cole memo, that was sort of what was threatened.

January 2012 Letter from DEA to Clark County Washington, on the topic of medical marijuana (before recreational MJ was legalized in Washington state).
http://mrsc.org/getmedia/E9DFE9D5-1EB4-4255-ADDD-1BE96EAD9DD6/usdea.aspx

I think this was also before Congress enacted a budget rider that restricted the Feds from using funds to prosecute cases against medical marijuana growers.

That statute is discussed here:
https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/08/16/15-10117.pdf
(footnote 5 of that opinion is a good read)

[CWM11B]

No fan of Reno's but Ruby Ridge was in '92, right? Reno took office under Clinton in 93.

AG's office under Bush 1 was under William Barr at that time right? On topic, there's an AG no one remembers! (or at least I don't).

Correct sir, time and age blurred my timelines. Damn I'm old.

[Zincwarrior]

Ain't it the truth. On the bright side, it did give me a reason to retire early. So there's that.

Exactly. The essential purpose of any bureaucracy is to expand the bureaucracy.

[Odin Bravo One]

Never mind.

[Peally]

Never mind.

Nothing personal, I probably just missed the idea behind your post.

[Odin Bravo One]

Nothing personal, but what I typed is irrelevant to the conversation in its current form.

[Stephanie B]

I was ordered. ;)

"You will go and you will have a good time." -- Almost every XO, ever.

[Hemiram]

I was best friends with a huge pot smoker from the age of seven until my early 30's. The unending and constant smoking was one of the things that annoyed me about him and probably led to us ending the friendship, but it was more to do with the smoking and my allergies and sensitivity to scents in general than the "drug" part of it. Coughing and my nose running for most of the rest of the day after going to see him was a major annoyance. The pot smoking was not as bad as the reaction I have around Christmas trees. They make me feel like I have a bad case of the flu. I even have problems going down the soap aisle in the grocery store.

Anyway, at 61, he looks great, 10 years younger than he is, and 20 years younger than his wife, who is actually 3 years younger than he is. He's closing in on 40 years at the same job. He's got 3 kids, 4 grandkids, and has a great life. His health is great. He smokes just about every day and has for 45 years.

I have some concern about DUI with MJ, but to be honest, booze and opiates are a much bigger issue. Hell, I was up very late (for me this is past dawn) while I was moving and I zoned out and had a fender bender because it. No drugs of any kind involved. The sleep, or lack of it as a cause of wrecks and injuries is a much bigger issue than MJ anything. If I ever get picked as a juror for a simple MJ possession case, I doubt I would ever find the person guilty, to be totally honest about it. The whole drug "war" is a lesson in failure where the cure is worse than the disease. Take that money and spend it on rehab, or fix the damn roads.