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Unobtanium
01-05-2018, 11:53 AM
I was shooting yesterday with a female friend of mine. It was her first time shooting a shotgun with full-house buckshot and slugs. She loved it. Yay!

Aside from that, I noted that when we fired 9-pellet FC reduced recoil, at 25 yards, I got a solid 8-12" pattern. She on the other hand sent 2 pellets into the mid-portion of the nearly 2' target, and the rest were "off paper".

How could this happen?

It is a theory of mine that how you hold the shotgun will affect patterns, especially from slower ammunition, and Flite Control. The shotgun recoils nearly 1" during the time the load is in the barrel. If it is moving a lot, it is my THEORY that it could "tip" the wad and "string" the payload, in the case of a FC wadding.

I plan to test this theory, and will update it with patterns fired from a loosely held shotgun, and a very tightly held shotgun, using the same ammunition. I posted this to see if others have noticed the same/etc? I will update in a few days with actual data.

Shotgun
01-05-2018, 01:32 PM
I was shooting yesterday with a female friend of mine. It was her first time shooting a shotgun with full-house buckshot and slugs. She loved it. Yay!

That is absolutely awesome. It's always nice to get someone new interested in shooting.

Regarding lateral stringing, please take a look at this exchange: https://shotgunreport.com/2013/10/11/shot-stringing-and-swinging/ It is not generally thought that any significant lateral stringing occurs when swinging a shotgun. But, your tests may bear out differently. Shooting over water might be a good idea to see if you see lateral stringing when intentionally swinging through a shot.

I think the load you and your friend were shooting has a muzzle velocity of 1145 fps. That load is in a 30" barrel for only about .00218 of a second, not much for lateral stringing, especially when your friend was trying to shoot a stationary target rather than a moving one. However, all of that runs contrary to your direct observation. It will be interesting to see the results of your tests.

A wild guess, in anticipating recoil, your friend may have a terrible flinch (not uncommon in new shooters) which may explain missing the target with the majority of pellets. The two pellets in the mid-portion may have been very wild fliers. But, I grant you, that would be extremely unusual to have Flight Control have fliers like that.

Unobtanium
01-05-2018, 06:25 PM
That is absolutely awesome. It's always nice to get someone new interested in shooting.

Regarding lateral stringing, please take a look at this exchange: https://shotgunreport.com/2013/10/11/shot-stringing-and-swinging/ It is not generally thought that any significant lateral stringing occurs when swinging a shotgun. But, your tests may bear out differently. Shooting over water might be a good idea to see if you see lateral stringing when intentionally swinging through a shot.

I think the load you and your friend were shooting has a muzzle velocity of 1145 fps. That load is in a 30" barrel for only about .00218 of a second, not much for lateral stringing, especially when your friend was trying to shoot a stationary target rather than a moving one. However, all of that runs contrary to your direct observation. It will be interesting to see the results of your tests.

A wild guess, in anticipating recoil, your friend may have a terrible flinch (not uncommon in new shooters) which may explain missing the target with the majority of pellets. The two pellets in the mid-portion may have been very wild fliers. But, I grant you, that would be extremely unusual to have Flight Control have fliers like that.
That is what I thought. I have had a pellet or two stray, but these were both significantly outside of any "pattern", which missed the target somehow. I am curious what my testing bares out. I also wonder if the flite control wad is more prone than conventional wads, as it actually has the capacity to "sling" things based on geometry, were it to tip.

Erick Gelhaus
01-05-2018, 09:44 PM
What sighting system do you have on that gun? And is she cross-eye dominant? If I'm understanding what you describe correctly, could see be sighting with the off eye?

Unobtanium
01-05-2018, 10:27 PM
What sighting system do you have on that gun? And is she cross-eye dominant? If I'm understanding what you describe correctly, could see be sighting with the off eye?

Ghost rings.
I don't know.
How would sighting system radically alter patterns?

03RN
01-06-2018, 05:14 AM
MGS

Magic gun syndrome

Weird stuff happens but that is really weird. Did you shoot it afterwards? Maybe the magazine tube was getting loose?

Maybe she was jerking the gun down, shooting the ground and happened to have a couple bounce up into the target???

Unobtanium
01-06-2018, 11:16 AM
MGS

Magic gun syndrome

Weird stuff happens but that is really weird. Did you shoot it afterwards? Maybe the magazine tube was getting loose?

Maybe she was jerking the gun down, shooting the ground and happened to have a couple bounce up into the target???

We shot it after that, and patterns were normal. It could be a fluke.
Or I could be on to something.
I'm not championing any concepts at present, but I wanted to look into this further. I need to buy some posterboard, and steel myself for loosely holding a shotgun and limpwristing it against my sensitive wee shoulder.

Shotgun
01-06-2018, 12:07 PM
I need to buy some posterboard, and steel myself for loosely holding a shotgun and limpwristing it against my sensitive wee shoulder.

Don’t forget the recoil bruise (and pain) you develop on your cheekbone. Don’t worry, that bruise and pain will likely go away in a week or two, maybe three in the outside. ;) But, the flinch you may develop from shooting a loosely held shotgun, well, that may last awhile.

Wondering Beard
01-06-2018, 01:24 PM
Aren't there some sort of shoulder/pectoral pad one can buy to mitigate recoil?

HopetonBrown
01-06-2018, 02:00 PM
Ken Hackathorn demonstrating Rob Haught's technique. After some practice it works amazingly well.

As others have mentioned, she's just flinching.

https://youtu.be/7jncWh1BPzw

Dagga Boy
01-06-2018, 02:27 PM
Trying to get a correct mount for many women, and especially a novice is difficult. It is a critical part of my instruction when teaching. The stick on my wife’s clays gun to put her on a perfect mount to the cheek is a contraption at a bunch of different angles that resembles nothing of a conventional Stock. You combine that with possible cross eye dominance, and there is a ton of diagnosis that will need to take place to figure it out.

Unobtanium
01-06-2018, 06:39 PM
Ken Hackathorn demonstrating Rob Haught's technique. After some practice it works amazingly well.

As others have mentioned, she's just flinching.

https://youtu.be/7jncWh1BPzw

Will flinching cause patterns to open drastically?

I will note that shooting off-hand or seated my slugs are centered. Shooting from the prone, they drift right. I find that interesting.

Shotgun
01-06-2018, 07:29 PM
Will flinching cause patterns to open drastically?

I will note that shooting off-hand or seated my slugs are centered. Shooting from the prone, they drift right. I find that interesting.

No, on the first question. It just makes the shot charge go somewhere else than where you intended.

On the second issue, could be a trigger pull issue. That’s another guess though.

Unobtanium
01-06-2018, 09:53 PM
Trying to get a correct mount for many women, and especially a novice is difficult. It is a critical part of my instruction when teaching. The stick on my wife’s clays gun to put her on a perfect mount to the cheek is a contraption at a bunch of different angles that resembles nothing of a conventional Stock. You combine that with possible cross eye dominance, and there is a ton of diagnosis that will need to take place to figure it out.

She's a tall girl, but they benelli stock is long. By the end of the session, I was giving her full power buckshot, and placing her 10 to 15 yards from the target, which was a 2x8x14 lumber, placed on my target frame at head height. She started from low ready, and on command was hitting it in about 1.5 seconds or so. About like "go"...boom shuck shuck..."fires". (Gun started loaded, wording for cadence description). She centered it each time and had fun. Her shoulder had no marks the next day either. Had a blast!

Unobtanium
01-09-2018, 09:24 AM
I have tested my theory. The only difference was in POI, which was about 8-10" higher, when held loosely with a pillow between my shoulder and the weapon, and my feet next to each other, vs. a solid stance with the weapon "choked".

1slow
01-09-2018, 09:35 AM
Will flinching cause patterns to open drastically?

I will note that shooting off-hand or seated my slugs are centered. Shooting from the prone, they drift right. I find that interesting.

Is your prone position A frame behind the gun or offset to one side? I found offset to change point of impact with heavier recoiling long guns. Gun would track more to the side under more recoil.

Unobtanium
01-09-2018, 09:38 AM
Is your prone position A frame behind the gun or offset to one side? I found offset to change point of impact with heavier recoiling long guns. Gun would track more to the side under more recoil.

I have tried both, and noted the same as you.

Erick Gelhaus
01-10-2018, 06:39 AM
The reason I asked about sights & cross eye dominance is ... if the gun has a bead & she's cross eye dominant, if she is sighting with the opposite eye that'd put the pattern way off because the sight alignment would be off.

The recoil mitigation via mount, etc could well be the issue too.

Unobtanium
01-10-2018, 07:21 AM
The reason I asked about sights & cross eye dominance is ... if the gun has a bead & she's cross eye dominant, if she is sighting with the opposite eye that'd put the pattern way off because the sight alignment would be off.

The recoil mitigation via mount, etc could well be the issue too.

Ghost rings were used.

JodyH
01-10-2018, 07:42 AM
All of my wife's shotgun shooting issues magically disappeared when I bought her a Benelli M2 20ga. with an extended tube.
The much softer recoil impulse combined with the added weight way out front had her consistently knocking down plates, poppers and clays where before she was erratic (12ga. flinch).
She always liked 12ga., but couldn't actually shoot it for shit.
Just because a shooter likes something, has no bruising, and "had a good time" doesn't mean they're not flinching or jerking from recoil anticipation.

Dagga Boy
01-10-2018, 11:36 AM
All of my wife's shotgun shooting issues magically disappeared when I bought her a Benelli M2 20ga. with an extended tube.
The much softer recoil impulse combined with the added weight way out front had her consistently knocking down plates, poppers and clays where before she was erratic (12ga. flinch).
She always liked 12ga., but couldn't actually shoot it for shit.
Just because a shooter likes something, has no bruising, and "had a good time" doesn't mean they're not flinching or jerking from recoil anticipation.

Local favorite shop had one on the used rack. If it had the compact stock, the wife would have gotten a new shotgun. I know GJM's wife also uses a Compact M2 20 ga.