IDPA has added carry optics

[JSGlock34]

Provisional Division for 2018

Carry Optics is Now a Provisional Division for 2018 (http://www.idpa.tech/carry-optics-is-now-a-provisional-division-for-2018/)

http://www.idpa.tech/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Appendic-C.pdf

Appendix C- Carry Optics Division

1.1.1 Carry Optics Division
1.1.2 Handguns permitted for use in CO must:
A. Have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units. Discontinued models must have had a total
production of 20,000 units
B. Be semi-automatic
C. Be double action, double action only, or striker fired
D. Use 9 mm (9x19) or larger cartridges.
E. Weigh 45.00 oz or less unloaded, with the heaviest magazine inserted.
F. Fit in the IDPA CO gun test box measuring 8 3⁄4” x 6” x 1 5/8” with the largest magazine inserted.
1.1.1.1 Start Condition
A. Selective DA/SA firearms will start hammer down.
B. Firearms with a hammer de-cocking lever or button will have their hammer de-cocked using the
lever or button.
C. If the hammer must be lowered by pulling the trigger and manually lowering the hammer, the
hammer will be lowered to the lowest position possible.
D. Manual safeties may be engaged at the shooter’s discretion.
1.1.1.2 CO Permitted Modifications (Inclusive list):
A. Optical/electronic sights REQUIRED; must be attached directly to slide between rear of slide and ejection port, and may not be mounted to the frame in any way.
B. Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell. Grip modifications such as, but not limited to, undercutting/smoothing the trigger guard, adding or removing finger grooves, or adding stippling, a slip-on sock, grip tape, or checkering are specifically allowed.
C. Magazine releases, slide stops, safety levers, de-cocking levers, hammers, and triggers, that are stock on one SSP legal firearm may be used on another CO legal firearm from the same manufacturer provided they are drop in replacements. Parts in this list must come factory installed on standard production firearms. Special parts that are available installed only from a factory custom shop are not eligible in CO.
D. Recoil spring guide rods and dual spring recoil systems made of material that is no heavier than stainless steel.
E. Frames may be replaced with identical frames from the same manufacturer.
F. Internal action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained (no
visible external modifications allowed).
G. Internal reliability work.
H. Aftermarket extractors and pins may be used.
I. Internal accuracy work.
J. Replacement of barrel with one of factory configuration that uses the original cartridge.
K. Plastic plugs may be used to fill the opening behind the magazine well.
L. Custom finishes may be applied.
M. Stockslidecoverplatesmayberefinished.
N. Slides may be engraved. Engraving is defined as etching into the slide of logos, letters, and
graphics no deeper than the original factory logos.
O. Aftermarket magazines may be used provided they do not weigh more than 1.00 oz. over the same capacity factory magazine.
P. Aftermarket magazine base pads may be used provided they do not make the magazine weight more than 1.00 oz. over the same capacity factory magazine.
Q. Magazine base pads may be modified by reshaping, texturing, or adding bumper pads provided that they do not make the magazine weigh more than 1.00 oz. over the same capacity factory magazine.
R. Magazines that are longer than stock may be used provided they meet all other division requirements and when inserted in pistol fit in the IDPA CO Box.
S. Magazine wells. The front-to-back dimension of the opening may be more than 1/4” greater than the corresponding dimension of a magazine. External flaring is PROHIBITED.
1.1.1.3 CO Excluded Modifications (Non-Inclusive list):
A. Externally visible modifications other than those listed in the Permitted Modifications section.
B. Aftermarket or visibly modified magazine releases, slide stops, safety levers, de-cocking levers,
and hammers.
C. Add-on magazine well opening.
D. Slide inserts to accommodate a different recoil assembly design.
E. A barrel that uses a different cartridge that is not offered in the original factory model.
F. Customization of the slide, other than to allow for installation of an optic, by adding front
cocking serrations, tri-top, carry melts, and high power cuts.
G. Aftermarket slides.
H. Aftermarket grip tang extensions or beavertails.
I. Disabling the slide stop.

[Lon]

Well, apparently hell just froze over.

[orionz06]

Their grip mod allowance is especially cool.

[YVK]

Just posted this on another site: 45 oz unloaded weight is a definitive testament to IDPA's orientation towards practical use and concealed carry.

[GJM]

Funny thing is I just hung up with Bill thirty minutes ago, and even though we discussed my lousy luck with optics, this never came up.

[BN]

Is that the IDPA web site?

[43Under]

Now, if they'll just add appendix carry.....

[JSGlock34]

Looks like they're compiling classifier scores...

Become classified in Carry Optics – Postal Match (http://www.idpa.tech/become-classified-in-carry-optics-postal-match/)

This is interesting; I've never seen the 5X5 Classifier before. This is something I can actually set up at my range. Now I'll have something to try when my slide gets back from ATEi...

http://www.idpa.tech/the-5x5-classifier-abbreviated/

[GJM]

Looks like they're compiling classifier scores...

Become classified in Carry Optics – Postal Match (http://www.idpa.tech/become-classified-in-carry-optics-postal-match/)

This is interesting; I've never seen the 5X5 Classifier before. This is something I can actually set up at my range. Now I'll have something to try when my slide gets back from ATEi...

http://www.idpa.tech/the-5x5-classifier-abbreviated/

When this first came out, I was shooting a 92, but shot it so much better with a Glock, I switched!

[MVS]

Looks like they're compiling classifier scores...

Become classified in Carry Optics – Postal Match (http://www.idpa.tech/become-classified-in-carry-optics-postal-match/)

This is interesting; I've never seen the 5X5 Classifier before. This is something I can actually set up at my range. Now I'll have something to try when my slide gets back from ATEi...

http://www.idpa.tech/the-5x5-classifier-abbreviated/

The second just looks like the Wilson 5X5 drill.

[JSGlock34]

The second just looks like the Wilson 5X5 drill.

I've seen the Wilson 5x5 drill before, but never with the IDPA classification scores at the bottom of the sheet.

22743

[revchuck38]

<thread drift>
Actually, that's a pretty interesting drill. The last stage, requiring hitting a 4" circle at ten yards, will slow folks down. This one's going into the range notebook.

Having been an SO for five years in the early part of IDPA (membership # <2000), I hated working the classifier. This abbreviated version would be much easier to officiate, and IMO better addresses the use of a defensive handgun...and no awkward workarounds for a snubby.
</thread drift>

[jlw]

Does the 5x5 classifier count for an official classification?

[Olim9]

Now, if they'll just add appendix carry.....

ditto.

[BigT]

Stupid box dimensions are stupid.

[orionz06]

Now, if they'll just add appendix carry.....

Forward progress is forward progress. With IDPA being exceptionally slow to adapt to what is currently VERY common for a true carry gun I'll take CO.

[CleverNickname]

Now if they'll go back to .5 seconds/point instead of 1 second/point, I might be convinced to shoot IDPA again.

[Peally]

Now if they'll go back to .5 seconds/point instead of 1 second/point, I might be convinced to shoot IDPA again.

If that's literally your only problem with IDPA there's no reason not so shoot it.

[Sal Picante]

Funny thing is I just hung up with Bill thirty minutes ago, and even though we discussed my lousy luck with optics, this never came up.

Does he even care about IDPA anymore?

[Sal Picante]

Still no Appendix Carry, tho...

Oh, and I love the 1 second penalty per down...

[Clusterfrack]

I predict that Optics will allow IDPA shooters to go too fast, so the down zero circle will be reduced in size.

[cheby]

Even if the Appendix carry was allowed and the penalty was the same, the whole IDPA thing is still lame... IMHO:)

[GJM]

Does he even care about IDPA anymore?


Still no Appendix Carry, tho...

Oh, and I love the 1 second penalty per down...

I would say number one on Bill’s list is shooting hogs, followed by shooting a 1911 and Beretta 92. Just a guess, but if for some reason he isn’t as enthused about IDPA, and I have no reason to think that, I would say it is because disasisfaction with the -1 scoring.

[jlw]

I asked the local IDPA guy about the 5x5 thing, and he says it is not official per the state coordinator.

[DAB]

I predict that Optics will allow IDPA shooters to go too fast, so the down zero circle will be reduced in size.

once optics started being used in bullseye and Bianchi cup, all the winners have used them.

edit: IPSC too. good read: http://www.gunsandammo.com/optics/a-history-of-pistol-mounted-red-dots/

[Zincwarrior]

Still no Appendix Carry, tho...

Oh, and I love the 1 second penalty per down...

I do too. Else the USPSA whiners would have nothing to complain about.:cool:

[CleverNickname]

If that's literally your only problem with IDPA there's no reason not so shoot it.
Oh no I have lots more, but that's the straw that broke my camel's back.

It looks to be a moot point anyways, because my Glock 17 with a Deltapoint Pro (that you'd think would be as about a common slide-optic'ed pistol as any) looks to be a smidge too tall to fit in the IDPA CO box.

[MVS]

Oh no I have lots more, but that's the straw that broke my camel's back.

It looks to be a moot point anyways, because my Glock 17 with a Deltapoint Pro (that you'd think would be as about a common slide-optic'ed pistol as any) looks to be a smidge too tall to fit in the IDPA CO box.

I saw that. I guess I will have to actually use my carry, Carry Optics gun if I want to shoot IDPA.

[CleverNickname]

I saw that. I guess I will have to actually use my carry, Carry Optics gun if I want to shoot IDPA.

I've got a Glock 19 for carry which also has a DPP, but I couldn't use that in IDPA either because it has an Inforce APL-C light on it. According to IDPA, only some sort of weirdo gamer would put a mounted light on their carry gun...

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I've got a Glock 19 for carry which also has a DPP, but I couldn't use that in IDPA either because it has an Inforce APL-C light on it. According to IDPA, only some sort of weirdo gamer would put a mounted light on their carry gun...

Or you could take literally 15 seconds to remove your light before going to a match?

If they allowed WMLs nearly everyone would use one: they add weight to the front of the gun which is where you want it to reduce muzzle rise. People would be buying 8oz+ WML's just to game with.

[CleverNickname]

Or you could take literally 15 seconds to remove your light before going to a match?

If they allowed WMLs nearly everyone would use one: they add weight to the front of the gun which is where you want it to reduce muzzle rise. People would be buying 8oz+ WML's just to game with.

As long as the pistol plus light remains under the 45 oz weight limit for the division, I don't see what the big problem would be. Either shoot a lighter gun with a WML, or if you shoot a heavier gun then you don't get to use a WML.

Honestly, USPSA could do the same thing.

[FNFAN]

Or you could take literally 15 seconds to remove your light before going to a match?

If they allowed WMLs nearly everyone would use one: they add weight to the front of the gun which is where you want it to reduce muzzle rise. People would be buying 8oz+ WML's just to game with.

I've guys shooting WMLs in monthly IDPA. None of them have been snatched by belt and collar and ejected. Outlaw division of course. Give it time, this is a big step forward for tech oriented gunners.

[JSGlock34]

I've seen the occasional local low light IDPA match.

[Artemas2]

After seeing a guy with a revolver take first overall (local level) I found all the gear rules to be pointless.

Unless you plan on competing in larger matches. Chances are no one cares how you gun is setup, or you can shoot under the "not for competition division"



This news got me excited at first, but I just had to get those spiffy front serrations added:(

[Sal Picante]

After seeing a guy with a revolver take first overall (local level) I found all the gear rules to be pointless.

Unless you plan on competing in larger matches. Chances are no one cares how you gun is setup, or you can shoot under the "not for competition division"



This news got me excited at first, but I just had to get those spiffy front serrations added:(

This is still my biggest beef with IDPA: The division just really don't matter... There was that statistical analysis of the 2012 IDPA nationals. It is gone now, but there is no real difference in times/scores...

[Artemas2]

This is still my biggest beef with IDPA: The division just really don't matter... There was that statistical analysis of the 2012 IDPA nationals. It is gone now, but there is no real difference in times/scores...

I shot my first state match last summer and I was surprised to the that the SSP times were generally better per position than the ESP guys. Does that happen often in your experience?

[Sal Picante]

I shot my first state match last summer and I was surprised to the that the SSP times were generally better per position than the ESP guys. Does that happen often in your experience?

It is hit-or-miss depending on the region, I think.
I think I shoot ESP most of the time, even though I've got an SSP-legal gun. (I don't consider a tuned-uspsa production gun, "stock")

If I shot my 92G, I'd put myself in SSP, tho.

[Sal Picante]

I shot my first state match last summer and I was surprised to the that the SSP times were generally better per position than the ESP guys. Does that happen often in your experience?

Good job getting out to shoot, BTW.

[Peally]

ESP and SSP are so close they're almost identical as far as scoring in my experience. It flip flops but all the divisions are basically similar, overall is the spot to want regardless of the gun (except maybe revolver).

[BN]

(except maybe revolver).

No. No. Revolver shooters want top spot too. And I've done it a few times. :)

[Peally]

No. No. Revolver shooters want top spot too. And I've done it a few times. :)

That's why I said maybe. If the competition blows or the revolver shooter is a baller it's entirely possible ;)

[JSGlock34]

I think that the universal classification rule speaks to the fact that there really isn't much performance difference between the Divisions, especially on the classifier.

9.3 Universal Semi-Automatic Classification

The classification attained by shooting the Classifier in any semi-automatic pistol division must be applied to all other semi-automatic pistol divisions. For example, if an SSP shooter receives an Expert classification, they are then also classified as Expert in CCP, ESP, and CDP.

[AsianJedi]

Other than this rule on the disallowed mods: F. Customization of the slide, other than to allow for installation of an optic, by adding front
cocking serrations, tri-top, carry melts, and high power cuts.....

Rules seem to be a carbon copy of USPSA rules.

Not wild about IDPA but I do see a lot of new potential students. :)

[AsianJedi]

I asked the local IDPA guy about the 5x5 thing, and he says it is not official per the state coordinator.

What about this though:

http://www.idpa.tech/become-classified-in-carry-optics-postal-match/

As scores come in, we will post interim scores on this page periodically. We will track multiple runs by shooters by adding a unique identifier in their name for each run. In the end, these scores will be used as official scores for classification on the IDPA website.

[Artemas2]

Other than this rule on the disallowed mods: F. Customization of the slide, other than to allow for installation of an optic, by adding front
cocking serrations, tri-top, carry melts, and high power cuts.....

Rules seem to be a carbon copy of USPSA rules.

Not wild about IDPA but I do see a lot of new potential students. :)

If you ever head up north a couple states I'm in:D


Anyone know why IDPA hates front serrations so much. Who is using them over them slide stop during a match:confused:

[jlw]

What about this though:

http://www.idpa.tech/become-classified-in-carry-optics-postal-match/

As scores come in, we will post interim scores on this page periodically. We will track multiple runs by shooters by adding a unique identifier in their name for each run. In the end, these scores will be used as official scores for classification on the IDPA website.

The information passed to me was that the page in question is not an official IDPA page, and he attributed that to the state coordinator. I'm just passing along the info I received from is usually a reliable source on such things.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I think this is great news and shows IDPA is making efforts to stay relevant with what people are actually carrying and interested in competing with. This continues the improvements seen last year such as removing the dust cover rule.

It seems to me they will need a new box for CO division. Just doing some quick maths it looks like any full size pistol with an RDS will be too tall for the box. Even a G19 size gun will need to be placed in diagonally, I believe.

On a thread-drifting note, here's my wish list for IDPA equipment rule changes:
-eliminate SSP. Equipment and times are so close to ESP they can just be one division.
-allow 8 round clip-fed revolvers, maybe in CDP division with CDP power factor.
-allow BUG revolvers to carry 6 rounds, same as the semi autos, and allow any caliber that meets power factor. Maybe lower the BUG weight limit to discourage "gamer" guns.
-get rid of barrel length requirements. It discourages innovations like the Bond/Boberg Bullpup and is unnecessary when you already have to fit in a box.

[DAB]

would make sense if there was a box with a little extension/side room on it for the optic to fit into. or just a height limit above the slide.

[JSGlock34]

Has anyone seen the Division Capacity for IDPA Carry Optics?

[TicTacticalTimmy]

One thing I notice looking at the rules is that they are the same as SSP, with the obvious addition of allowing slide milling. This strikes me as incredibly dumb as milling for a red dot is obviously not a feature found on "stock service pistols."

I sure hope they amend this to change the rules to ESP+slide milling.


Has anyone seen the Division Capacity for IDPA Carry Optics?

It seems reasonable to assume it will be 10 rounds, since all other dimensions/rules are based on SSP division

[AsianJedi]

The information passed to me was that the page in question is not an official IDPA page, and he attributed that to the state coordinator. I'm just passing along the info I received from is usually a reliable source on such things.

FYI....This what the local area director said about the IDPA.tech site

“One of the Area Coordinators runs it and is one of the key people at IDPA. What he posts there has been blessed by HQ.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peally]

So it's the IDPA version of USPSA "rules clarifications" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Clusterfrack]

So it's the IDPA version of USPSA "rules clarifications" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

That ASCII smiley is awesome! I haven’t seen that before.

[Peally]

That ASCII smiley is awesome! I haven’t seen that before.

Lenny face is the ultimate troll face

[jlw]

FYI....This what the local area director said about the IDPA.tech site

“One of the Area Coordinators runs it and is one of the key people at IDPA. What he posts there has been blessed by HQ.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hope the 5x5 thing comes to fruition.

[JSGlock34]

I'll note the IDPA news page recommends downloading the new end of year rulebook from the IDPA.tech website, which at the very least implies an endorsement, if not an official relationship.

http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2018/01/03/2017-end-of-year-rulebook-errata.aspx

2017 end of year rulebook errata
by Administrator 3. JANUARY 2018 13:50
Subscribe to Feed
The 2017 end of year rulebook errata was released on Jan 1st for the new shooting year.

Based on the number of new products introduced to the market during the last year that produced several questions at matches, restrictions were lifted on the number and types of changes that are allowed on pistol slides in ESP and CDP divisions. No other changes, except the 2 noted format changes, have been made and the latest copy ( 2017.3) is on both the IDPA website or the IDPA.Tech web site. We will not be mailing new rulebooks to the membership.

For clubs and safety officers, an updated version of Match Administration Guide was also released to address issues that arise from sanctioned matches.

The latest copies may be downloaded from the IDPA and IDPA.Tech websites.

[JSGlock34]

I've seen the Wilson 5x5 drill before, but never with the IDPA classification scores at the bottom of the sheet.

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I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention to the pistol-training.com page on the 5x5 drill (https://pistol-training.com/drills/5x5-skill-test). Bill Wilson's standards match the ESP standards above exactly, though it doesn't appear the standards have changed to reflect new IDPA scoring.

5×5 Skill Test
designed by Bill Wilson

Range: 10yd
Target: standard IDPA target
Start position: Hands at your sides facing target. No concealment garment necessary.
Rounds fired: 25

Another quick and easy to set up/score shooting test by Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat. It is intended for a service pistol of 9mm caliber or larger, concealed carry suitable holster and ammunition with a power factor (bullet weight x velocity) of 125,000 or more. Scoring is standard Vickers with a half second penalty per point down.

There are four strings of fire, each for time:

Draw and fire 5 shots freestyle.
Draw and fire 5 shots SHO (strong hand only).
Draw and fire 5 shots freestyle, reload from slidelock and fire 5 more shots freestyle.
Draw and fire 4 shots to the body and 1 shot to the head freestyle.
Bill Wilson’s suggested scoring:

Grand Master: 15 seconds or less
Master: 20 seconds or less
Expert: 25 seconds or less
Sharpshooter: 32 seconds or less
Marksman: 41 seconds or less
Novice: 50 seconds or less
Not proficient enough to carry a handgun: Over 50 seconds

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

[JSGlock34]

And I'm ready.

23021

[MVS]

And I'm ready.

23021

So I assume the 17 and RMR do fit in the box then?

[JSGlock34]

So I assume the 17 and RMR do fit in the box then?

I'm curious about the box, since the Provisional CO rules specifically mention a CO Box, and then use the same dimensions as the standard IDPA Gun Test Box.

Of course if it isn't a typo, I could just pull the comp and magwell off the G19...(well, actually I can't since it has slide serrations...grrr...)

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[TicTacticalTimmy]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.idpa.com/MISC/Appendix%2520C-Carry%2520Optics.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj-z9qsnN3ZAhWmm-AKHWolCBYQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2pDgw2pklefQhpZdGOoVYz

Just discovered this updated CO rulebook. Subject to change of course. Some notes:

1. Special CO box formed by cutting top side of regular box. Basically any gun that fits in regular box will fit with any slide mounted optic. I really like this.

2. SAO are now allowed! Although DA/SA must start decocked. I guess I'll be buying a SAO trigger for my CZ.

Overall, it is basically ESP with red dots, which is exactly what I was hoping for!

[AsianJedi]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.idpa.com/MISC/Appendix%2520C-Carry%2520Optics.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj-z9qsnN3ZAhWmm-AKHWolCBYQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2pDgw2pklefQhpZdGOoVYz

Just discovered this updated CO rulebook. Subject to change of course. Some notes:

1. Special CO box formed by cutting top side of regular box. Basically any gun that fits in regular box will fit with any slide mounted optic. I really like this.

2. SAO are now allowed! Although DA/SA must start decocked. I guess I'll be buying a SAO trigger for my CZ.

Overall, it is basically ESP with red dots, which is exactly what I was hoping for!

Hmmm...so 9mm 1911 would be allowed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CleverNickname]

"1.1.2 Handguns permitted for use in CO must: A. Comply with any IDPA pistol division before the optic is installed."

"1.1.1.2 CO Permitted Modifications (Inclusive list):
...
B. Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell.
C. Magazine releases, slide stops, safety levers, de-cocking levers, hammers, and triggers, that are
stock on one SSP legal firearm may be used on another CO legal firearm from the same
manufacturer provided they are drop in replacements. Parts in this list must come factory
installed on standard production firearms. Special parts that are available installed only from a
factory custom shop are not eligible in CO."

1.1.2 seems to conflict with 1.1.1.2. An ESP-legal handgun with a magwell and aftermarket trigger "compl(ies) with any IDPA pistol division", but then 1.1.1.2 B and C say it can't have the aftermarket trigger and magwell.

[dontshakepandas]

"1.1.2 Handguns permitted for use in CO must: A. Comply with any IDPA pistol division before the optic is installed."

"1.1.1.2 CO Permitted Modifications (Inclusive list):
...
B. Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell.
C. Magazine releases, slide stops, safety levers, de-cocking levers, hammers, and triggers, that are
stock on one SSP legal firearm may be used on another CO legal firearm from the same
manufacturer provided they are drop in replacements. Parts in this list must come factory
installed on standard production firearms. Special parts that are available installed only from a
factory custom shop are not eligible in CO."

1.1.2 seems to conflict with 1.1.1.2. An ESP-legal handgun with a magwell and aftermarket trigger "compl(ies) with any IDPA pistol division", but then 1.1.1.2 B and C say it can't have the aftermarket trigger and magwell.

1.1.1.2 S says magwells are allowed.

It does look like 1.1.1.2 C will disallow aftermarket triggers, slide stops, and magazine releases which doesn't make much sense to me if they are going to allow magwells and other frame customization.

I am glad they seemed to have removed the restriction on aftermarket slides so I can use my Unity Tactical ATOM slide though.

[CleverNickname]

1.1.1.2 S says magwells are allowed.

Huh, I missed that. So it does.

But "You can have a magwell just not a shitty magwell made from extra-long grip panels" doesn't particularly make much sense either.

[Zincwarrior]

Is this trial or official? I started so in January and already have PCC, now don't have to move, and this. It's fine but I need a revised book with the changes already...

[dontshakepandas]

Not at all. Hopefully they'll get some of this cleaned up.

I'd really like to be able to shoot my carry gun in this division, but I don't ever shoot anything but local matches for my own personal practice so if they don't change it to be ESP plus an optic I'll probably just shoot my carry gun in its current configuration and not worry about which division I'm in.

[That Guy]

1.1.2 seems to conflict with 1.1.1.2.

The first carry optics rule draft published at idpa.tech was basically SSP with optics. What I think is going on here is simply that when the rules were changed to ESP with optics, someone forgot to update some of the rules.

Hell, I've seen video of U.S. IDPA matches. It's not like you lot follow the rules too closely, anyway. ;) Probably not worth worrying about the minutae, especially if you intend to shoot just local matches.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[CleverNickname]

The first carry optics rule draft published at idpa.tech was basically SSP with optics. What I think is going on here is simply that when the rules were changed to ESP with optics, someone forgot to update some of the rules.

Yeah I agree. It's nice that they tracked the USPSA CO rules fairly closely too. In fact, I wish USPSA CO would allow small carry-sized magwells (not huge Open or Limited division sized magwells) so that I could use one and stop dinging up the bottom of the grip on my Glock's frame.

[Peally]

Yeah I agree. It's nice that they tracked the USPSA CO rules fairly closely too. In fact, I wish USPSA CO would allow small carry-sized magwells (not huge Open or Limited division sized magwells) so that I could use one and stop dinging up the bottom of the grip on my Glock's frame.

My VP9 will be grip-less in a few years. Plastic gun curse.

[cclaxton]

The updated CO provisional rules do allow for SAO, DA/SA and DA guns with magwells.
The provisional rules do need to be cleaned up regarding language.
But the way to figure out allowed mods: Rule 1.1.2.A refers to an unmodified gun in SSP, ESP, CDP or CCP.
You can then modify it according to the CO Provisional rules as listed.

Custom guns get kinda tricky. It will depend on the type of mod. If you have a question about a custom gun for CO, please write your Area Coordinator.

The good news is that SAO and DA/SA are now legal....that made a lot of people happy.

http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/a3nozfcz.rcs.pdf

Cody

[AsianJedi]

Cody,

If you want some feedback to share with the brass at IDPA, they need to allow slide serrations and non-oem windows for a couple of reasons:

1. Attracting people who already have guns done with red dots rarely stop at just a red dot cut. Slide serrations, etc are often added. Not allowing them will exclude people from hopping into the sport.
2. Not allowing non-oem windows does the same thing and gives advantages to manufacturers like Sig, Walther, and S&W who specifically include slide cuts vs Glock Owners who do not and often add them when they get their guns milled. Again this may dissuade these owners from joining the sport.
3. No one ever won a match because of their window cuts or slide serrations so who really cares?
4. Saying that we don't want the division or sport to turn into a arms race is moot. If you bought a red dot pistol, you are full on in the race. ;)

[jtcarm]

Off-topic, I know: but when will we get freakin 8-shot revolvers???

[jetfire]

Off-topic, I know: but when will we get freakin 8-shot revolvers???

When Wilson Combat starts making a custom 627, duh.

(I kid, I kid)

[jtcarm]

When Wilson Combat starts making a custom 627, duh.

(I kid, I kid)

Not the first time I’ve heard that, lol!

[Jim Watson]

Got an e-mail from the Walkin' in Memphis Tier 3 match that they have added CO to the program, and if we want to change divisions let them know.

If you think Wilson set up IDPA to flog pistols, show up with your Tactical Elite and see if they let you play.

[Jim Watson]

Got an e-mail from the Walkin' in Memphis Tier 3 match that they have added CO to the program, and if we want to change divisions let them know.

If you think Wilson set up IDPA to flog pistols, show up with your Tactical Elite and see if they let you play.

CORRECTION
It is the Mississippi Showdown that has added IDPA CO.

[jetfire]

Got an e-mail from the Walkin' in Memphis Tier 3 match that they have added CO to the program, and if we want to change divisions let them know.

If you think Wilson set up IDPA to flog pistols, show up with your Tactical Elite and see if they let you play.

Calm down, no one actually seriously thinks that. It’s just a joke.

[Jim Watson]

Calm down, no one actually seriously thinks that. It’s just a joke.

Maybe no one HERE. I have read and heard people to get right irate over it.

[jetfire]

Maybe no one HERE. I have read and heard people to get right irate over it.

Well to be fair, some people can barely tie their own shoes and probably shouldn’t be allowed on the internet.

[orionz06]

Well to be fair, some people can barely tie their own shoes and probably shouldn’t be allowed on the internet.

I feel that most wear these for the clean appearance and quiet confidence, it wouldn't be fair to assume anything else.

https://c.shld.net/rpx/i/s/i/spin/image/spin_prod_669979601??hei=64&wid=64&qlt=50

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I feel that most wear these for the clean appearance and quiet confidence, it wouldn't be fair to assume anything else.

https://c.shld.net/rpx/i/s/i/spin/image/spin_prod_669979601??hei=64&wid=64&qlt=50

Ah he got the velcro...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jtcarm]

Well to be fair, some people can barely tie their own shoes and probably shouldn’t be allowed on the internet.

But how are millennials going to learn to tie their shoes without YouTube????

[NEPAKevin]

No need to learn how to tie shoe laces when they wear bunny slippers in their safe spaces.

29624

[HCM]

30820

[Bucky]

Has anyone with a higher attention span than me done a breakdown comparison between USPSA and IDPA CO divisions, IE what is / is not allowed?

[Jim Watson]

The main one I can think of is that USPSA CO no longer carries the 10 shot limit of Production and IDPA.

[Bucky]

The main one I can think of is that USPSA CO no longer carries the 10 shot limit of Production and IDPA.

I just saw you can’t add front cocking serrations. My 34 is out getting milled for an optic... and FCS. Oh well.

[Jim Watson]

So call 'em up with a change order. If the work has not yet been done, you can have it stopped so as to stay compliant.

[Bucky]

So call 'em up with a change order. If the work has not yet been done, you can have it stopped so as to stay compliant.

Slide is already been sent to refinishing. No big deal.

[Jim Watson]

Strange, I find in the latest version of USPSA CO:

21.2b
Milling of slide
A slide may be modified specifically for the
purpose of installing optical sights or cocking
serrations.

[MGW]

So are they going to change the weight limit for CO?

[Jim Watson]

Change from what? The latest version on USPSA.org is

18 Maximum weight Yes, 45 oz, including optic and empty magazine

Same in IDPA provisional CO

B. Maximum weight including empty magazine will not exceed 45 ounces.

[Bucky]

Strange, I find in the latest version of USPSA CO:

21.2b
Milling of slide
A slide may be modified specifically for the
purpose of installing optical sights or cocking
serrations.


Yeah, OK for USPSA which is what I’m building. I got the impression not so for IDPA, which matters so much less to me.

[Jim Watson]

"Impressions" may not match the rules. I find for IDPA CO

A. Handguns, associated modifications, restrictions, holsters, magazine carriers, calibers, start
condition, and division capacity shall be compliant with ESP Division requirements, except as it
relates to sights, lasers and overall weight.

and

8.2.2.2 ESP Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list):
N. Checkering, serrating, and stippling.

Looks to me like you will be able to swing both ways.

[Bucky]

Looks to me like you will be able to swing both ways.

___
O.o
—

[jetfire]

The biggest difference is that IDPA Carry Optics will allow 1911/2011 style guns, which I don’t think USPSA CO allows yet.

IDPA CO doing this makes me happy because I always thought CO was stupid and we should have kept Modified.

[MGW]

Change from what? The latest version on USPSA.org is

18 Maximum weight Yes, 45 oz, including optic and empty magazine

Same in IDPA provisional CO

B. Maximum weight including empty magazine will not exceed 45 ounces.

Thank you, Jim. I hadn't seen that.

[Sal Picante]

The biggest difference is that IDPA Carry Optics will allow 1911/2011 style guns, which I don’t think USPSA CO allows yet.

IDPA CO doing this makes me happy because I always thought CO was stupid and we should have kept Modified.

Modified only lives on in spirit with "Shooting Sports USA" (the arcade game)

[AJZ]

The biggest difference is that IDPA Carry Optics will allow 1911/2011 style guns, which I don’t think USPSA CO allows yet.

IDPA CO doing this makes me happy because I always thought CO was stupid and we should have kept Modified.

This essentially got me interested in shooting a dot again for competition. My 2011 dot gun is a commander with a slide mounted rmr, and competing in USPSA Open with it is a little rough as its not legal for CO. With IDPA allowing it thus far, it's got me shooting/focusing on IDPA a bit more now. With the upsurge of 1911/2011 slide mounted red dot options available, as well as the "relaxing" of the USPSA CO rules, I hope, though doubt, they will be included at some point.

[JSGlock34]

Not provisional anymore...Interesting that CO will use ESP classifier brackets.

Carry Optics adopted as an IDPA Division

from IDPA

This week, IDPA will be releasing an updated version of Appendix C for Carry Optics for immediate use by our membership. This new release adopts the classifier brackets found for Enhanced Service Pistol as the brackets for Carry Optics. By finalizing the classifiers for this division, it becomes easier for clubs to recognize this growing division for their matches at every level of our sport.

Carry Optics has become a popular division for many of our members and we are responding to this enthusiasm by finalizing the outstanding issues found in the provisional rules. We are also going to recognize Carry Optics at next year’s World Championship match being held again in Talladega the week of October 21st through the 26th. Classifier scores will be accepted into the system.

Members are encouraged to contact their Area Coordinator if they have any questions concerning this change. We hope you will enjoy the changes. See you at the range.

[Jim Watson]

Interesting for sure.
IDPA CO is ESP with dot, so if there is an advantage to the dot, classification will be higher.
And since one auto classification applies to all auto divisions, we will see a lot of bumps.