Norco bank robbery and shoot-out

[TC215]

I came across this (old) documentary on the Norco bank robbery and thought it was pretty good. For some reason, this incident doesn’t seem to get the attention other high-profile LE shootings often get, so I figured I’d share it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQXXcFmMVNE



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbdfAc2E2g&t=10s



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDQrvW5-Pdc

[Doc_Glock]

I read about it a few years back. Good learning about the possibility of ambush during a pursuit.

[TheNewbie]

I believe there was a movie made based on this.

[blues]

Quite an event. I'm impressed with the radio discipline displayed by both the involved officers and the dispatchers throughout. Brave souls.

Thanks TC215 for sharing this. First time I've seen these videos.

[Dagga Boy]

That was in the area I worked. Lots of lessons learned and we got a ton of info and those lessons passed down in the academy. San Bernardino County was way ahead of the LE world in shooting from helicopters and legal intervention on vehicles as a norm. If those were not options, shooting cars was fairly normal. I cannot remember a single case of a vehicle pursuit not terminating immediately once "40 King" (Sheriff's helicopter) lit the car up with a Mini 14 or MP-5. Norco brought a heavyweight dose of serious to the Inland Empire in the 80's like N. Hollywood did in The LA area

[BobM]

My agency had a VHS training tape that was one of the ones I had to watch after getting back from the academy in 1989. I don't recall the producer but I thought it was pretty informative.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Whenever someone opining on North Hollywood or Stockton or the high round count robbery de jour says "Nothing like this EVER happened before!" I think back to my academy class and wonder how they never heard about Norco.

There are good lessons in this. TC215 ... thank you for sharing.

[BobM]

A week or so, I saw a recently published hardcover book on this incident at a Barnes and Noble. Has anyone read it?

[TC215]

A week or so, I saw a recently published hardcover book on this incident at a Barnes and Noble. Has anyone read it?

Just ordered it:

https://www.amazon.com/Norco-80-Spectacular-Robbery-American/dp/1640092129/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3DOVPQ5AYF3WQ&keywords=norco+80&qid=1561228585&s=gateway&sprefix=Norco+%2Caps%2C291&sr=8-1

[Erick Gelhaus]

A week or so, I saw a recently published hardcover book on this incident at a Barnes and Noble. Has anyone read it?

Reading it now.

[jnc36rcpd]

Just finished "Norco '80". Excellent book detailing the incident, the trial, and the effects on officers and agencies.

[blues]

Just finished "Norco '80". Excellent book detailing the incident, the trial, and the effects on officers and agencies.

Added to my reading list.

[BobM]

I got a coupon from B&N in today's mail, I'll pick up a copy next week.

[Joe in PNG]

Ordered a copy

[Ed L]

I read the book. I enjoyed the narrative, assuming that it is accurate, but the author knew nothing about guns and had an anti-gun attitude.

He describes two of the bankrobbers buying "a couple of .38 Specials of the concealable variety usually reserved for liquor store holdups and bar fights."

He described the The HK93 as a German-made .223-caliber assault rifle, the civilian semiautomatic version of the M16.

Described a Remington 870 with a folding stock as a "sawed-off, antipersonnel version of the Remington 870 Wingmaster shotgun known as a riot gun." They bought this in a store without NFA paperwork. Likely this "sawed off" shotgun had a legal 18" barrel.

The Author said regarding an HK91 in .308 that one of the bankrobbers bought when compared to the HK93 in .223: "A .223 might kill you, but a .308 would literally blow your head off."

At one point in the book he described a police officer in a patrol car rushing to the get into the chase of the robbers taking rifle fire from almost a mile away from the robber's .308.
Absolutely could not happen given the ballistics of the .308, given it was an open sighted gun, and given that the robbers could not have possibly gotten a line of sight on a police car in urban terrain at anywhere near this distance.

The author obviously knew nothing about guns. But reading this, I wonder what other mistakes the author made regarding the account of the robbery, or what he may have made up.

[MRW]

Ordered the book. Didn't know it was out there, so thanks for putting it out. Not to derail the thread, but does anyone know of there are similar books out on the 1997 North Hollywood robbery, the 1986 Miami FBI gun battle, or the 2014 Stockton Bank robbery?

[TC215]

Ordered the book. Didn't know it was out there, so thanks for putting it out. Not to derail the thread, but does anyone know of there are similar books out on the 1997 North Hollywood robbery, the 1986 Miami FBI gun battle, or the 2014 Stockton Bank robbery?

Ed Mireles’ book on the Miami shootout:

https://www.amazon.com/Miami-Firefight-Minutes-Changed-Bureau/dp/0999510304/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=FBI+Miami+firefight&qid=1561308243&s=gateway&sr=8-1

[blues]

Ordered the book. Didn't know it was out there, so thanks for putting it out. Not to derail the thread, but does anyone know of there are similar books out on the 1997 North Hollywood robbery, the 1986 Miami FBI gun battle, or the 2014 Stockton Bank robbery?

In the similar books category but not the incidents you mention...

Newhall Shooting
(https://www.amazon.com/Newhall-Shooting-Tactical-influential-Concealed-ebook/dp/B00APPBRUM)

[SiriusBlunder]

The movie "Rapid Fire" (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0426138/) is OK and "based" on the events.

[SeriousStudent]

In the similar books category but not the incidents you mention...

Newhall Shooting
(https://www.amazon.com/Newhall-Shooting-Tactical-influential-Concealed-ebook/dp/B00APPBRUM)

I hunted down a copy of that book. It's a very good read as well.

I bought the Norco book the other day, after a dinner conversation with a friend. I have noticed the same thing Ed did, regarding some over the top comments. I'll have to reserve judgement until I finish it, it had definitely set off my radar.

[blues]

I hunted down a copy of that book. It's a very good read as well.

I bought the Norco book the other day, after a dinner conversation with a friend. I have noticed the same thing Ed did, regarding some over the top comments. I'll have to reserve judgement until I finish it, it had definitely set off my radar.

Yeah, that sort of makes one wonder, doesn't it. Unfortunate.

[SeriousStudent]

Yeah, that sort of makes one wonder, doesn't it. Unfortunate.

Well, they can't all be John Hearne. :cool:

[blues]

Well, they can't all be John Hearne. :cool:

I'll have to take your word on that. ;)

[CWM11B]

Thank you Ed L and SeriousStudent, you guys just saved me the purchase price. Those kinds of errors make me question the veracity of the text.

[jnc36rcpd]

I still recommend the book, but I agree the author definitely doesn't know guns. I suspect some of the goofy stuff came from interviews and casually expressed opinions. I wouldn't characterize the author as anti-gun. but I can't argue otherwise.

[Joe in PNG]

I still recommend the book, but I agree the author definitely doesn't know guns. I suspect some of the goofy stuff came from interviews and casually expressed opinions. I wouldn't characterize the author as anti-gun. but I can't argue otherwise.

My suspicion as well. Some of the most egregious errors could have been indirect quotes from someone he talked to.

[andre3k]

After 17 years in Law Enforcement this is the first time I've ever heard of this incident. I watched the videos and this is the classic definition of a clusterfuck. Dead Officers, dead suspects, half the dept fleet gets shot up during the chase, police helicopter gets shot down, IED's, police car getting hit by a train, officers grabbing 22lr leverguns from bystanders....this was a definite shit sandwich with cheese.

[jnc36rcpd]

Well, they can't all be John Hearne. :cool:

Of course, SeriousStudent's post sent me to Amazon to see if Hearne had actually written a book. The search function yielded a book on Waterford crystal, the DVD "Fletch Lives", and an "adult urban fantasy" (whatever that is) entitled "Graveyard Druid". I had no idea that Hearne was so versatile a writer.

[Erick Gelhaus]

After 17 years in Law Enforcement this is the first time I've ever heard of this incident. I watched the videos and this is the classic definition of a clusterfuck. Dead Officers, dead suspects, half the dept fleet gets shot up during the chase, police helicopter gets shot down, IED's, police car getting hit by a train, officers grabbing 22lr leverguns from bystanders....this was a definite shit sandwich with cheese.

Yes, this is a significant problem in the cop world. We have significant issues in regards to our history. These events HAVE happened before, we need to be willing to learn from them and apply those lessons.

And I would prefer those write the books get the material right. Just think about some of the wrongly repeated alleged lessons from Newhall versus what did, in fact, happen.

[Jeff22]

I JUST got the "Norco '80" book and I've skipped around and read parts of it but have not read from beginning to end.

The author knows NOTHING about firearms, and his errors are all obvious and should have been picked up in editing the manuscript.

Nonetheless, it appears to be an interesting book.

This incident happened just before I became a cop. My first job was at a restaurant and a brother of the owner was a deputy in Riverside County and acquainted with the deputy who was killed. He retired shortly afterwards.

[jnc36rcpd]

Erick, you won't find many street-level tactical lessons in the book (and no firearms lessons). I think you will find some strategic ones.

The police, especially Riverside Sheriff's Office, were clearly outgunned. The then-sheriff, who had apparently made significant improvements over his long tenure, did not seem especially interested in improving the agency's tactical response capability. While he made improvements in the aftermath of Norco, his initial statements seemed to endorse the status quo. As I recall, he remarked that his officers were as well trained and outfitted as any officers in California. I doubt that or else the LASD Special Enforcement Bureau would not have been brought in, but more importantly, perhaps someone should have been paying attention. That said, I wasn't yet an officer when this occurred so I may be looking back through a retiree's eyes.

Interoperability of radio equipment was very much an issue. Most RSO personnel did not have the state-wide inter-agency channel. Our slain brother arguably might have survived had he known the bad guys were set up to ambush him around a blind curve. Communication between RSO and California Highway Patrol largely depending on cops listening to scanner (the way my former agency was for many years with the county police) as well as loudspeakers and hand gestures.

Post-traumatic stress was a significant issue for officers in the incident. There was significant anger toward two of the first three officers on the scene by the one who was left behind when the other two bailed to head to the hospital. No criticism of them for doing that based on what happened, but it didn't appear blameless to the cop who perceived abandonment. RSO had no critical incident debriefing or stress management program back in the day.

This incident, like others in recent times, was an explosives incident. While the bad guys' distraction bombing largely failed. They didn't seem that bright, but home-made grenade launchers firing explosives a hundred yards seem intimidating as do the hand grenades.

Long guns rule. Many of the deputies deployed shotguns. We'd be better with slide guns today with tactical buckshot and extended magazines, but a single pellet from a slide gun dropped the driver of the get-away car. Likewise for the other side as a helicopter sustained damaged that put it out of the pursuit.

Marksmanship counts. The slain deputy made a long range shot with a .38 revolver at over double today's qualification ranges that significantly wounded a perpetrator. Leadership counts. The San Bernardino Sheriff's Office was led by a street-cop at heart who seemed to care about the real world more so than his counterpart in Riverside.

The book is not perfect, especially for gun bunnies like us, but it is worth a read.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Erick, you won't find many street-level tactical lessons in the book (and no firearms lessons). I think you will find some strategic ones.

Thank you jnc!


<snip> Post-traumatic stress was a significant issue for officers in the incident. There was significant anger toward two of the first three officers on the scene by the one who was left behind when the other two bailed to head to the hospital. No criticism of them for doing that based on what happened, but it didn't appear blameless to the cop who perceived abandonment. <snip>
The perception of abandonment, during the event or after, is a very fascinating one. I'm looking forward to getting through the book.

[paherne]

Thank you jnc!


The perception of abandonment, during the event or after, is a very fascinating one. I'm looking forward to getting through the book.

What would you know about abandonment? LOL

[Stephanie B]

The author obviously knew nothing about guns. But reading this, I wonder what other mistakes the author made regarding the account of the robbery, or what he may have made up.
Reading between the lines of this article (https://www.apnews.com/5033ffa0e942499fb17b366c41db23aa) that was in today's edition of my local birdcage-liner, it was clear to me that the author is at or near Sarah Brady's level of being antigun.

You guys will have to let me know if he's banging that drum in the book.

[Erick Gelhaus]

So, since I’m completely un-conversant on the state of after market magazines at a time before I started high school ... just how common were 40rd AR magazines in 1980?

And yes it s abundantly clear the author wrote fiction before this.

[MRW]

Finished up the book today. Overall, its decent. The author would have benefitted from deeper research into the firearms involved and their capabilities. He tries to explain the research he's done in this area in interviews and at the end of the book, but readers of the book with strong knowledge about guns will realize some more work was needed in this area.

Ultimately, it is worth a read if for no other reason than to get some more information about this robbery. The narrative based on extensive interviews with participants does put you on the ground during the robbery.

The part of the book covering the trial is less interesting. I ended up equally bored and annoyed by the antics of the defense counsel, the defendants, and some of the actions of the prosecution.

Books like this are good to read because they also put all of the hot-button issues around law enforcement such as the "militarization" of police, public and agency administration reactions to high profile incidents, and PTSD in first responders in a historical perspective. These issues have been around for a long time and reading how others successfully or unsuccessfully handled them is important.

[Gray01]

And yes its abundantly clear...


Noting the reader's who have commented upon the author's lack of accuracy regarding items (firearms, etc), which generally are easy to research and verify, how much more or less accurate is his rendition of a dynamic event and all of the permutations that occur in such circumstances. This seems like a potential Gell-Mann Amnesia event.

[MRW]

A work of narrative history based mostly on oral history covering a dynamic event such as a violent robbery is bound to have some things that are off.

Eye witnesses and participant interviews are not the be all and end all of any investigation of a crime whether you're writing the history of said crime almost 40 years after it occured or investigating it the day after it happened. Good history, like a good investigation needs to have the human point of view corroborated with physical evidence.

The author set out to write a narrative history of a violent crime. It succeeds at that level, especially when using the story of the robbery to explore some larger issues.

I definitely think the author lays out the case for heavier weapons for police for example. He contrasts the Norco robbery and the San Bernadino attack in 2015 and points out the 2015 attack was quickly and more efficiently resolved due to the agencies in the area being better equipped.

In the end, it is not a major scholarly work exploring and corroborating every aspect of the Norco bank robbery. It is an interesting story that is mostly well told.

[Ed L]

Reading between the lines of this article (https://www.apnews.com/5033ffa0e942499fb17b366c41db23aa) that was in today's edition of my local birdcage-liner, it was clear to me that the author is at or near Sarah Brady's level of being antigun.

You guys will have to let me know if he's banging that drum in the book.

Here is another thing, the author writes it as a non-fiction book, but I am sure that he blended a lot of his own narrative fiction to it.

In a lot of cases he writes about what various people were thinking right before the incident happened.

Hell, this happened 39 years ago. I guarantee unless someone at the time was facing something major life event that they were worrying about--like a close relative in the hospital, there is no way that they would be able tell you what they were thinking about 39 years ago on some random day before something major happened.

[jnc36rcpd]

Point well taken, Ed, but the guy did want to sell his book. Drama and excitement enters into that. If more people read the book, hopefully more will realize that the cops may need rifles and armored vehicles and so forth.
From our point of view, he is careless with some terminology. He mentions "militarization of the police" and the increase in armored vehicles. I would have preferred that he had phrased that as more "more effective weapons and safety gear", but he wasn't whining about it either.

[Jeff22]

I bought my first AR-15 in 1977.

I got a steel 40 round mag for it a year or two later. I don't remember who made it.

I still have it someplace (along with all the other magazines I ever owned that still work)

[Gray01]

If more people read the book, hopefully more will realize that the cops may need rifles and armored vehicles and so forth.
From our point of view, he is careless with some terminology. He mentions "militarization of the police" and the increase in armored vehicles. I would have preferred that he had phrased that as more "more effective weapons and safety gear",..

Hopefully in one hand...:p

I think that horse has not just left the barn, it is now either mucilage or in the Phrench sewers. American humans did not envision the term "militarization of the police" when LEO's used a variant of the M1918A2 BAR.

In third grade we were taken on a field trip to the local State Police facility whereby we were treated, in rapt attention, to a live fire demonstration of an assorted ensemble of weaponry, to include that awful, fire-spitting "militarized" death dealer known as the Thompson M1928 submachine gun. After the demo we were permitted to swarm the line, vying to be able to retrieve one expended case, and the winners were indeed proud. Everyone, teachers included, had face-splitting smiles, and there was not even a glimmer of the idea that what had and was transpiring was anything except right and wholesome and good.

jnc36rcpd, we (as in the imperial "we") have not changed; it is a cultural shift that (I know...tinfoil hats...) I think has been engineered. Conspiracy? Probably not. But an orchestra can all play to accomplish the goals of the composition. Regardless, the end result is where we are, and the term "militarization" is now used as a bludgeon upon law enforcement. That is, after all, what occurs when one side is permitted to command the language and the definitions.

[TGS]

I think that horse has not just left the barn, it is now either mucilage or in the Phrench sewers. American humans did not envision the term "militarization of the police" when LEO's used a variant of the M1918A2 BAR.


From The Good Doctor and Mr. Hearne. Nothing else need be said:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13136-Appropriate-gear-and-weaponry-for-cops&p=244979&viewfull=1#post244979

[Erick Gelhaus]

Well, I finished the book. And I see the author is now starting to make appearences at L/E conferences. I'll stick with jnc's hope that some lessons above the tactical may be learned.

[blues]

Well, I finished the book. And I see the author is now starting to make appearences at L/E conferences. I'll stick with jnc's hope that some lessons above the tactical may be learned.

Was it a worthwhile read? I've got a copy in my to be read file.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Was it a worthwhile read? I've got a copy in my to be read file.

Yes. With the caveat that the comments about fiction, artistic license, bias all appear to be accurate from my perspective. It was a significant event that is no longer well known in our world. There are during and after (especially after) lessons that are not yet internalized within our profession. Fixing some of the after issues will help others.

[Tom Givens]

I agree with Erick. The gun stuff is very inaccurate bullshit, but the account of the trial process and the aftermath for some of the officers has some value. These lessons have to be relearned every fifteen years, it seems.

[Ed L]

So, since I’m completely un-conversant on the state of after market magazines at a time before I started high school ... just how common were 40rd AR magazines in 1980?

I just noticed this question.

I don't remember seeing a 40 round magazine for the AR in 1980. I bought my first AR-15 in the fall of 1980. It was a Colt SP-1 with a 20" barrel and triangular handguards. It came from the factory with two 20 round magazines that were blocked to only accept 5 rounds, and needed to be disassembled to remove the blockers. At that time 20 and 30 round magazines were available in gun stores, with the 20 round mags being more common.

At some point in the early to mid 1980s I remember seeing 40 round magazines for the AR-15 advertised in some catalogs and such. But I don't remember ever seeing one in real life or in a gun store.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I just noticed this question.

I don't remember seeing a 40 round magazine for the AR in 1980. ... At some point in the early to mid 1980s I remember seeing 40 round magazines for the AR-15 advertised in some catalogs and such. But I don't remember ever seeing one in real life or in a gun store.

Thanks Ed.

[MistWolf]

...just how common were 40rd AR magazines in 1980?
I don't think I'm very much older than you as in 1980, I was out of high school only a short time. But my father, my uncles and their shooting buddies were avid gun guys and I hung out with and went shooting with them as much as possible. Dad even had a gunshop for a few years.

In California during that time, 40 round AR mags weren't particularly rare, but they weren't very common either. 40 Round mags could always be found at Pomona Gun Show. Dad, my uncles and their shooting buddies bought a few. Reliability was inconsistent and were considered a novelty item rather than proper gear. It wasn't long before they found their way into the junk drawer where they became misplaced, forgotten and lost. During that time, the most common AR mags were the twenty rounders. Thirty rounders were also available but they weren't as common. Thirty rounders were considered "untried" and the twenty rounders were the order of the day.

[Joe in PNG]

Wonder if someone mixed up the capacity of AR mags and HK93 mags?

[Erick Gelhaus]

In California during that time, 40 round AR mags weren't particularly rare, but they weren't very common either. 40 Round mags could always be found at Pomona Gun Show.

Thanks for the info.