“SWATING” fatality

[HCM]

Family says son killed by police in ‘swatting’ was unarmed, didn’t play video games


On Thursday, Deputy Wichita Police Chief Troy Livingston said a substation received a call that there was a hostage situation in a house in the 1000 block of West McCormick — and that someone had been shot in the head.

“That was the information we were working off of,” he said, explaining that officers went to the house ready for a hostage situation and they “got into position.”

“A male came to the front door,” Livingston said Thursday night. “As he came to the front door, one of our officers discharged his weapon.”



On Twitter, more than a dozen people who identified themselves as being in the gaming community told The Eagle that a feud between two Call of Duty players sparked one to initiate a “swatting.”

“I DIDNT GET ANYONE KILLED BECAUSE I DIDNT DISCHARGE A WEAPON AND BEING A SWAT MEMBER ISNT MY PROFESSION,” said one gamer on Twitter, who others said made the swatting call. His account was suspended overnight.

According to posts on Twitter, two gamers were arguing when one threatened to target the other with a “swatting.” The person who was the target of the swatting gave the other gamer a false address, which sent police to Finch’s home instead of his own, according to Twitter posts.



Andrew Finch leaves behind two children – ages 2 and 7. He is from Virginia and the family moved to Wichita in the mid-1990s.

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192147194.html

Pretty random. Not only did the suspect engage in SWATting, but SWAT’ed the wrong house.

[HCM]

Additional info including body cam footage of the shooting and the 911 call which intiated the incident.

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192244734.html

The caller is on the line with 911 dispatchers for several minute giving a detailed description of the shooting, having a handgun, claiming to be holding his mother and little brother hostage in a closet and claiming to have doused the house with gasoline.


At 6:18 p.m., an officer working at City Hall received a call from an unknown man who said there was a disturbance with his father. When dispatchers spoke with the caller, he said he got into an argument with his mother and shot his father.

“They were arguing and I shot him in the head, and he’s not breathing anymore,” the caller said.

Asked if he had any weapons on him, the caller said, “Yeah I do.”

He then said he was standing by his mother’s closet holding a black handgun.

“I’m just pointing the gun at them, making sure they stay in the closet,” the caller said.

When the dispatcher asked if he could put the gun down, he said no. He then made further threats.

“I already poured gasoline all over the house, I might just set it on fire,” he told the dispatcher. “Do you have my address correct?”

He then described a one-story house and again said his father wasn’t breathing.



According to posts on Twitter, two gamers were arguing when one threatened to target the other with a swatting call. The person who was the target of the swatting gave the other gamer a false address, which sent police to a nearby home instead of his own, according to Twitter posts.

The person who was to be the target of the swatting sent a Tweet saying, “Someone tried to swat me and got an innocent man killed.”

Dexerto, a online news service focused on gaming and the “Call of Duty” game, reported the argument began over a $1 or $2 wager over the game.

This is, Livingston said, the first time in his memory that Wichita police have dealt with a “swatting” call. If they have happened before, Livingston said, they didn’t rise to this level.

“This prank phone call, we don’t see it as a prank,” he said. “It only heightened the awareness of the officers, which we think led to this deadly encounter.”


Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192244734.html#storylink=cpy

[TheNewbie]

How do these people find your address? I see the false address in this , but in the other swatting cases.

[WobblyPossum]

Body cam footage from across the street released: http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192244734.html

It does appear that the victim lowered his hands to the area of his waistband and suddenly brought them back up, pointed towards officers. A tragedy all around. I couldn’t tell if the shot came from the officer whose footage was shown. I wonder if he could effectively PID what was in the victims hands from that range. Makes me really want a LPVO on my patrol rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[voodoo_man]

Body cam footage from across the street released: http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192244734.html

It does appear that the victim lowered his hands to the area of his waistband and suddenly brought them back up, pointed towards officers. A tragedy all around. I couldn’t tell if the shot came from the officer whose cottage was shown. I wonder if he could effectively PID what was in the victims hands from that range. Makes me really want a LPVO on my patrol rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Looks like just over 50m, difficult to PID anything with certainty in a hand.

[jellydonut]

That does look exactly like a two-hand draw stroke to my eyes, although the video is pretty grainy. You have to wonder what that guy was thinking.

[WobblyPossum]

That does look exactly like a two-hand draw stroke to my eyes, although the video is pretty grainy. You have to wonder what that guy was thinking.

He was probably pretty confused about why he had a SWAT team surrounding his house. The yelling of commands and high lumen lights being shined in his face added to the confusion. Like most people, he likely didn’t know much about the legalities of use of force law or the safest way to interact with police. For all we know, the reason he jerked his hands up quickly was because he realized he had lowered them contrary to the commands he was hearing and didn’t want to get shot so he brought them back up as quick as he could.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blues]

What a complete and utter clusterfuck. I think anyone responsible for generating these events should be publicly drawn and quartered.


My heart, naturally, goes out to the needlessly deceased (and family) and the officers who will have to live with this scar on their psyche for years to come.

Tragic.

[Jason M]

Body cam footage from across the street released: http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192244734.html

It does appear that the victim lowered his hands to the area of his waistband and suddenly brought them back up, pointed towards officers. A tragedy all around. I couldn’t tell if the shot came from the officer whose footage was shown. I wonder if he could effectively PID what was in the victims hands from that range. Makes me really want a LPVO on my patrol rifle.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, I agree about the gear upgrades. I just bumped my 300lumen Scout light for a more powerful version. The T1 is going to be swapped out for an LVPO as soon as I can swing it.

[JohnO]

In 2008 a regional SWAT team killed a guy in Easton, CT under highly dubious circumstances. The victims family has since been awarded $3.5 million. The cop who shot the guy received the "officer of the year award". This all came about because the victim was an undesirable guy living in an affluent neighborhood. $1.5 million to the homeowner.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Settlement-in-Easton-Deadly-Raid-191946981.html

http://fox61.com/2015/09/23/victim-of-botched-easton-police-raid-gets-1-5m/

[TheNewbie]

An arrest has been made.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/30/kansas-swatting-suspect-arrested-in-los-angeles.html

[blues]

An arrest has been made.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/30/kansas-swatting-suspect-arrested-in-los-angeles.html

I may have missed it in the above article, but I believe the individual arrested had previously run afoul of the law for alleged bomb threats.

[TheNewbie]

I may have missed it in the above article, but I believe the individual arrested had previously run afoul of the law for alleged bomb threats.

I think so too. Over a damn video game.

What asshole gives out a fake address and what a horrible person who did this. He's a schmindrick too because he's been caught before yet did something similar again .

[Kyle Reese]

I think so too. Over a damn video game.

What asshole gives out a fake address and what a horrible person who did this. He's a schmindrick too because he's been caught before yet did something similar again .Yup. Think he'll serve any time over this latest incident, if convicted?

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[Chuck Haggard]

Yup. Think he'll serve any time over this latest incident, if convicted?

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

We tend to still put people in prison here in KS

[TheNewbie]

Yup. Think he'll serve any time over this latest incident, if convicted?

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

I hope so. I wonder if any legal action will happen to the guy who gave the fake address out.

[Lon]

In 2008 a regional SWAT team killed a guy in Easton, CT under highly dubious circumstances. The victims family has since been awarded $3.5 million. The cop who shot the guy received the "officer of the year award". This all came about because the victim was an undesirable guy living in an affluent neighborhood. $1.5 million to the homeowner.



WTF does this have to do with the thread topic? This situation was completely different than the drug raid in the article you linked.

[Totem Polar]

It should be a felony to "SWAT" someone.

If said someone gets smoked as a result, it should be felony murder.

JMO, IANAL, etc.

[TheNewbie]

I feel bad for the officer too. Damn this scumbag who screwed up all these lives.

[MGW]

This sucks. WPD is generally a very good organization. I know people that work for them and have done ride alongs multiple times. Weekends on night shift in Wichita are extremely busy and stressful as I’m sure any large metro department is. These guys run 1,000’s of calls and 99% of them go right.

This one call based on a false report resulted in the death of an individual. The loudest members of the public will not hold the person that made the call responsible. They’ll blame the officers that responded. This is a no win situation for the department. It won’t matter if the shooting is determined to be justified or not.

My heart goes out to the family of the victim and the officer and his family. I hope cooler heads prevail. Unfortunately the local newspaper is not friendly toward law enforcement and I don’t trust them to do anything that will help the situation.

[Malamute]

I hope so. I wonder if any legal action will happen to the guy who gave the fake address out.

Hope he has some liability as well. I cant figure out why hed give ANY address to some retard that threatened him, let alone the address of some poor guy that had zero to do with any of it.

This entire thing makes me wonder about humans and their supposed superior intelligence.

[HCM]

It should be a felony to "SWAT" someone.

If said someone gets smoked as a result, it should be felony murder.

JMO, IANAL, etc.

This is, at a minimum, a pretty clear state case of Manslaughter vs. the caller.

Criminal liability vs the guy who gave the fake address will require some additional investigation.

There is a bill pending in Congress to make SWATting and Doxxing federal crimes since they use interstate communication facilities.

[PearTree]

There is a bill pending in Congress to make SWATting and Doxxing federal crimes since they use interstate communication facilities.
I hope this happens. We have had a lot of these swatting calls this year with similar kidnapping and active shooter scenarios. Thankfully they were all resolved without issue.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[JodyH]

The "chain of custody" on the original "911" call is jinky as fuck.
The initial call was not to 911 but to a substation number.
911 could not verify the reporting number.
The caller was very specific as to the "crime" but vague on the physical description of the location.

There has to be a way to start screening out spoofed calls, especially calls that are likely to bring down a high risk response.

Call spoofing is probably the biggest problem facing telecom today (scammers and swatters being the worst) and nobody seems to be able to do a fucking thing about it.

[Nephrology]

I hope this happens. We have had a lot of these swatting calls this year with similar kidnapping and active shooter scenarios. Thankfully they were all resolved without issue.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I really hope prosecutors go after these cases aggressively. The only way to get it to stop is to start catching these slimy nerds and sending them to prison for extended periods of time. They will not do well in DOC custody and I think they know that too. Make them fear it is a real possibility.

[JodyH]

btw: I guarantee foreign and domestic saboteurs/terrorists are taking notes.
Want to completely fuck over a specific enemy... swat them.
Want to tie up resources "over there" while you commit your crime "over here"... swat someone.
Want to sew distrust and drive a wedge between LE and citizenry... swat the hell out of a location and just wait for the fallout.

[CCT125US]

What about due diligence of the responding officers?

Admittedly out of my lane, but I checked the rules for this section, and seem to be allowed to participate. Feel free to tell me to FO, but I have some questions on this one.

[Totem Polar]

btw: I guarantee foreign and domestic saboteurs/terrorists are taking notes.
Want to completely fuck over a specific enemy... swat them.
Want to tie up resources "over there" while you commit your crime "over here"... swat someone.
Want to sew distrust and drive a wedge between LE and citizenry... swat the hell out of a location and just wait for the fallout.

Point taken. The whole SWAT scam concept gets more displeasing the more I think about it.

[olstyn]

Hope he has some liability as well. I cant figure out why hed give ANY address to some retard that threatened him, let alone the address of some poor guy that had zero to do with any of it.

It certainly does seem like it would require a significant lapse in judgment to give out an address at all. I mean, maybe something that is obviously 100% false, like 12345 Unicorn Lane, would be ok, but it does seem like if you have any reasonable idea that the person asking for the address wants to use it for nefarious purposes, then giving out an address that has any possibility of being real would put you in an actionable position.

[HCM]

I hope this happens. We have had a lot of these swatting calls this year with similar kidnapping and active shooter scenarios. Thankfully they were all resolved without issue.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

It will be nice to have it on the books but getting the U.S. Attorney to prosecute will be the next challenge.

[AMC]

What about due diligence of the responding officers?

Admittedly out of my lane, but I checked the rules for this section, and seem to be allowed to participate. Feel free to tell me to FO, but I have some questions on this one.

We don't really know what they did or didn't do yet. Hard to make that judgement with no info. In the local news webpage here, the comments on the story seem to come almost universally from anonymous experts in LE policy and procedure, who recommended having a patrol unit "drive past" the block, to see if anything as amiss. Also, the fact that no neighbors called and said they heard shots, or smelled gasoline, should have "proved" to the cops that it was a prank call that could have been handled by the " desk sergeant" at the station.

We recently responded to a shooting call that ended up being a homicide. Mentally I'll subject we had detained for evaluation previously (and confiscated 20 guns and 30,000 rounds of ammo from), lost it and shot his mother at 11 PM at night. He called us.....not the neighbors. We got mom out...but he was barricaded for the next 20+ hours. Had the whole dog and pony show there....SWAT Bearcat, command vehicles, staged ambulances and firetrucks. Most of the neighbors had no idea til they woke up and tried to go to work.

[HCM]

What about due diligence of the responding officers?

Admittedly out of my lane, but I checked the rules for this section, and seem to be allowed to participate. Feel free to tell me to FO, but I have some questions on this one.

Legally, you don’t get to judge them via 20/20 hindsight. They have to respond based on the info they are given or have at the time- in this case an armed, homicide suspect who has already shot someone. The calculus of reasonableness is based on the facts known to the officers at the time. Read the U.S. Supreme Court case Graham v Connor - it is THE basis for LE UOF Law in the United States. Note that in Graham, the officer was factually wrong but objectively reasonable based on the facts availible to him at the time.

Personally, I think this situation is a strong case for the PID capability of a 1-4 or 1-6 LPV vs a red dot on LE rifles. It also supports an “all the lumens”approach to LE lights, particularly lights on long guns.

As far as I’m concerned, the officer who fired is one of the victims in this case and should sue the shit out of both the caller and the guy who gave the address.

[JodyH]

While we're on the subject.
Abuse of 911 and false reporting should be felonies and they should be vigorously prosecuted.
I don't care if it would dissuade people from calling 911... good... there are too many bullshit calls clogging it up anyway.

[WobblyPossum]

What about due diligence of the responding officers?

Admittedly out of my lane, but I checked the rules for this section, and seem to be allowed to participate. Feel free to tell me to FO, but I have some questions on this one.

At this time the only info I have comes from the news articles and the video. The police received a call that a guy shot someone and was about to burn down the house. They surrounded the house. A guy came out of the house, ignored commands telling him to keep his hands up, moved his hands towards his waist, and then suddenly thrust them towards officers in a movement consistent with a handgun drawstroke. If no new info comes out, sounds like this meets the graham v. Connor test.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Coyotesfan97]

btw: I guarantee foreign and domestic saboteurs/terrorists are taking notes.
Want to completely fuck over a specific enemy... swat them.
Want to tie up resources "over there" while you commit your crime "over here"... swat someone.
Want to sew distrust and drive a wedge between LE and citizenry... swat the hell out of a location and just wait for the fallout.

The criminal element especially armed robbers does this already to draw patrol out of the area they’re looking to commit a robbery in. We’ve had guys call in fake calls when they’re stuck in a perimeter to pull Officers away so they can get out.

We’ve had SWATTING calls. Some of them have been obviously bogus and others sound pretty plausible. If it sounds like a hostage situation we’ll lock the location down and try to call in or PA the house. Unless there are on duty SWAT guys available it’ll be a patrol response. All of ours have been resolved peacefully.

After watching the video that sure looks like a draw and going to a shooting stance. I don’t know what that guy was thinking.

[JodyH]

At this time the only info I have comes from the news articles and the video. The police received a call that a guy shot someone and was about to burn down the house. They surrounded the house. A guy came out of the house, ignored commands telling him to keep his hands up, moved his hands towards his waist, and then suddenly thrust them towards officers in a movement consistent with a handgun drawstroke. If no new info comes out, sounds like this meets the graham v. Connor test.
While I don't disagree with you from a purely technical analysis of the situation.
I do encourage people to look at it from the perspective of a completely innocent person (which this guy was).
The gears can turn really slowly when you're forced from being an interested bystander walking outside to look at what all the commotion is to having thousands of lumens of light shined directly into your face and Police commands yelled at you from across the street.
I'm guessing there were several seconds worth of "who the fuck are they yelling at and why the fuck are they shining lights at my house?" followed by "Ohh fuck! they're yelling at me!".
As pointed out earlier I think the hand movement was probably pulling his pants up or about to put his hands in his pockets (still in "rubber necker" mode) then the "Ohh fuck!" moment and realizing he needed to get his hands up right now.

Horrible situation to be put in, from stepping outside to see what's happening at the neighbors house to shot dead on your porch in a matter of seconds.

[PearTree]

I really hope prosecutors go after these cases aggressively. The only way to get it to stop is to start catching these slimy nerds and sending them to prison for extended periods of time. They will not do well in DOC custody and I think they know that too. Make them fear it is a real possibility.The problem is it's pretty much impossible to find these people with the modern technology they are using to call in. Not one of the swatting calls I was involved in resulted in an arrest. We still have no idea who placed any of the calls.

[WobblyPossum]

While I don't disagree with you from a purely technical analysis of the situation.
I do encourage people to look at it from the perspective of a completely innocent person (which this guy was).
The gears can turn really slowly when you're forced from being an interested bystander walking outside to look at what all the commotion is to having thousands of lumens of light shined directly into your face and Police commands yelled at you from across the street.
I'm guessing there were several seconds worth of "who the fuck are they yelling at and why the fuck are they shining lights at my house?" followed by "Ohh fuck! they're yelling at me!".
As pointed out earlier I think the hand movement was probably pulling his pants up or about to put his hands in his pockets (still in "rubber necker" mode) then the "Ohh fuck!" moment and realizing he needed to get his hands up right now.

Horrible situation to be put in, from stepping outside to see what's happening at the neighbors house to shot dead on your porch in a matter of seconds.

I’m with you 100%. I was the one who voiced the idea about the sudden hand movement being an “oh shit” realization that he’s the subject of the commands. This is a real tragedy, akin to shooting a child with a realistic looking BB gun. While the actions are objectively reasonable, I imagine it’s still awful to live with and a recipe for PTSD for the officers. You can do the “right thing” and still do a bad thing. The officer who fired the fatal shot is a victim of the swatter as well.

All I meant with my previous post was that I felt the officers did not have any liability here. I apologize if it came off in a callous manner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TGS]

What about due diligence of the responding officers?

Admittedly out of my lane, but I checked the rules for this section, and seem to be allowed to participate. Feel free to tell me to FO, but I have some questions on this one.

Well, you're a pretty cool guy who's been a member here for a while.....I don't think anyone is going to tell you to FO given you aren't a dick.

If you're not satisfied with what you've read in the responses so far, please be more specific with your questions/concerns for the sake of clarity, learning, etc. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows you'd be asking out of genuine intent and not looking to shit post.

[HCM]

The problem is it's pretty much impossible to find these people with the modern technology they are using to call in. Not one of the swatting calls I was involved in resulted in an arrest. We still have no idea who placed any of the calls.

Nothing is untraceable, but due to the volume of these calls, only those resulting in negative outcomes are gonna get those resources.An even smaller portion will be prosecuted.

[Lon]

Legally speaking, based on the facts in the media and the video I saw, I think this will be ruled down the road as being within the bounds of “ objective reasonableness”.

Having said that, we can train to handle these situations better. We were talking at roll call this morning about this and watched the video and had a good discussion about tactics for a situation like this. It definitely makes me rethink my patrol optic. I’ve been toying w the idea of getting a 1-4/6x scope for my patrol rifle. Seriously rethinking my setup.

[TAZ]

Call spoofing is probably the biggest problem facing telecom today (scammers and swatters being the worst) and nobody seems to be able to do a fucking thing about it.

I’m not certain that nobody is ABLE to do anything about it. I’d wager nobody has been forced to address the problem at the telco level. They have been occurring for a few years now, especially with the mass transition to VOIP. The telcos can’t claim we didn’t know it could happen.


What about due diligence of the responding officers?

Admittedly out of my lane, but I checked the rules for this section, and seem to be allowed to participate. Feel free to tell me to FO, but I have some questions on this one.

There is only so much due diligence that can be done. Remember the Connecticut family that was brutally killed while the cops were doing due diligence work? Once the call is made the cops are in a lose lose situation. Don’t act and the family dies a horrid death and you’re the pussies with all that tax payer funded militarization that stood by with your dick in your hand. They pretty much have to do something. In this case they were told the situation was dire. I’m not sure I’d question the SWAT call out. I’ll leave the question if the shit fired to folks with more info and experience. The camera does make it look like distance was not their friend when it comes to identifying weapons or other things. I’m liking my LPVO for this reason.


The problem is it's pretty much impossible to find these people with the modern technology they are using to call in. Not one of the swatting calls I was involved in resulted in an arrest. We still have no idea who placed any of the calls.

I think the solution may not only be better tracking tech, but better security of the network as well. It shouldn’t be easy to spoof numbers. For Christ’s sake: I get spoofed telemarketing calls. Don’t tell me the NSA is helping Easter Seals get donations. You can start by making sure that the MAC address or serial no of the VOIP router are tied to the subscriber address and anything not using that ID on 911 gets kicked to a higher level of care. Cell phones can’t use anything other than billing address as the default loss of GPS info to send...

Phone companies need to get on board or face legal issues. This is no longer an unforeseen circumstance they can hide behind.

[gtae07]

After watching the video that sure looks like a draw and going to a shooting stance. I don’t know what that guy was thinking.

I do encourage people to look at it from the perspective of a completely innocent person (which this guy was)...

I suspect that the vast majority of people have no training, experience, or education regarding "how to act around police" (for lack of a better way to describe it) other than perhaps a bit of dubious hand-me-down instruction concerning traffic stops. Most people also probably don't really know what a draw stroke to a shooting stance looks like outside of old Western movies. They almost definitely don't have instruction or experience in being on the receiving end of a felony stop/tactical situation/etc. I'm guessing he probably didn't have any thoughts at all along the lines of "don't do anything that would look like I'm drawing a weapon" because (a) he didn't realize he was the person of interest, and (b) he wouldn't know what that looked like anyway.

[WobblyPossum]

Slight tangent: The fact that we can discuss this incident in a calm and rational manner is one of the reasons I value this forum so highly. There is a thread about this incident on another forum I read and the consensus from the membership is that the SWATer is a POS and needs to be charge with murder, the officer who fired is a POS and needs to be charged with murder and then given to the lynch mob, and the entirety of Wichita PD needs to be retrained because they’re a bunch of wannabe operators.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PearTree]

Nothing is untraceable, but due to the volume of these calls, only those resulting in negative outcomes are gonna get those resources.An even smaller portion will be prosecuted.Oh I agree, but without going into details on an open forum, the way the caller did it to us we had no way to trace who made the call. Granted it's more a problem with the way the agency is set up rather than the caller themselves. My agency and those around us are getting more and more of these calls, so something definitely needs to be done.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[peterb]

Arrest made: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/30/574789231/police-arrest-suspect-in-fatal-swatting-prank

[CCT125US]

Legally, you don’t get to judge them via 20/20 hindsight. They have to respond based on the info they are given or have at the time- in this case an armed, homicide suspect who has already shot someone. The calculus of reasonableness is based on the facts known to the officers at the time. Read the U.S. Supreme Court case Graham v Connor - it is THE basis for LE UOF Law in the United States. Note that in Graham, the officer was factually wrong but objectively reasonable based on the facts availible to him at the time.

Personally, I think this situation is a strong case for the PID capability of a 1-4 or 1-6 LPV vs a red dot on LE rifles. It also supports an “all the lumens”approach to LE lights, particularly lights on long guns.

It appears one officer fired a single shot. If the response was reasonable based off the suspects actions alone, would there have been only one response (shot)?

Hard to beat a LPV. Is there a working standard for PID? Is the lack of response and furtive movement considered PID? How does the distance play into proper use of force? For example: ambient noise, distance, subjects state.

[TC215]

It appears one officer fired a single shot. If the response was reasonable based off the suspects actions alone, would there have been only one response (shot)?

Hard to beat a LPV. Is there a working standard for PID? Is the lack of response and furtive movement considered PID? How does the distance play into proper use of force? For example: ambient noise, distance, subjects state.

The number of officers shooting is not indicative of anything.

[AMC]

I have no personal knowledge of the facts of this case, but we have for some time been trying to impress on officers (with only marginal success) the need to have designated lethal cover officers on some situations...especially those involving communication/negotiations or the use of less lethal means. This frees up other officers to concentrate on other tasks, and can potentially avoid the fusillade of lethal fire that seems to inflame some sentiments, because "why didn't they shoot him just once?" As others have commented, in today's Environment, responding to calls like this are essentially no-win situations for cops. Even if no shots had been fired, some people would complain the cops were too heavy handed, or stupid not to realize it was a prank call.

[hufnagel]

I suspect that the vast majority of people have no training, experience, or education regarding "how to act around police" (for lack of a better way to describe it) other than perhaps a bit of dubious hand-me-down instruction concerning traffic stops. Most people also probably don't really know what a draw stroke to a shooting stance looks like outside of old Western movies. They almost definitely don't have instruction or experience in being on the receiving end of a felony stop/tactical situation/etc. I'm guessing he probably didn't have any thoughts at all along the lines of "don't do anything that would look like I'm drawing a weapon" because (a) he didn't realize he was the person of interest, and (b) he wouldn't know what that looked like anyway.

A friend of mine who not too long ago went from dispatcher to beat cop, told me a story about an encounter.
He's on night shift, gets a call about "some dude with a knife" and a description. Finds a guy walking down the street in the general area matching the general description. Engages the guy in conversation and asks him "you carrying a knife?" Dude pulls the knife out, points it at my friend, starts walking to him saying "you mean this knife??" Dude got 3 steps forward before he realized he'd done fucked up as he's staring down the barrel of my friend's service Glock. Drops knife, a more heated discussion ensues (with the heat from my friend and his partner wilting the dude), dude is not the dude they're looking for, and he's eventually let go, but as my friend said he was literally moments away from being dead.
In short, people are brutally fucking stupid lots of times.

I don't know what to do about the SWAT'ing issue, other than trying to make sure the right people have as much accurate information at the time of incident, to make the "correct" judgement calls.

[JodyH]

Not saying it was a factor at all in this particular case but these situations remind me of how critical it is to be able to reverse a decision to shoot midway through the process (re: Dagga Boy's trigger threads).
Perhaps safety on, high trigger finger register, a 1-4x optic with a wide FOV, a 1000 lumen Surefire and a long mushy AUG trigger would have been the difference between dead and a close call.
Maybe not.

[Lon]

Is there a working standard for PID? Is the lack of response and furtive movement considered PID? How does the distance play into proper use of force? For example: ambient noise, distance, subjects state.

PID (which I assume means Postive ID) in a use of force situation is not easily defined, I guess. PID in what way? PID that he’s the suspect? That he has a gun? When I think about having a POSITIVE ID about something, I equate that to absolute certainty. Legal standards for a use of force situation do not require absolute certainty.

Justifying a use of force requires a look at all the facts surrounding the case and then deciding whether or not the use of force was “objectively reasonable”.

Lack of listening to commands and furtive movements can help justify a use of force. Furtive movements alone probably not. If they did I would have been justified in shooting a bunch of people over the last 23 years.

Distance plays a role in a use of force incident. Take a gun out of the equation and shooting someone from 50 yards away is harder to justify. But not untenable. There must be other “objective” factors involved. For example, what if this guy came outside with a knife and yelled at the police something about killing someone else inside and then turned to go back inside? We could justify that shot even though no OFFICERS were in danger.

Noise may play into it, but not in the way people may think. Maybe they didn’t hear the commands? That’s why loud simple commands over a PA are awesome. But we cannot assume that they aren’t doing what we tell them because they can’t hear us. Maybe they’re just being a dick and daring us to do something.

A subject’s state (of mind?) is definitely a factor. State of mind may cause us to re-evaluate our tactics, but doesn’t preclude us from using force. State of mind is just one piece of the puzzle.

Hope that helps.

I’m curious to know whether these were patrol guys or actually SWAT? Most agencies (including many big cities) don’t have full time SWAT so a SWAT response is an hour away, at least.

[fixer]

Generally I am not a fan of making an example but this hoax should be dealt with harshly.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Out of curiousity, for those advocating the cops doing more "due diligence," can you tell me what that looks like? How the officers could go about doing that?

[HCM]

It appears one officer fired a single shot. If the response was reasonable based off the suspects actions alone, would there have been only one response (shot)?

Hard to beat a LPV. Is there a working standard for PID? Is the lack of response and furtive movement considered PID? How does the distance play into proper use of force? For example: ambient noise, distance, subjects state.

The fact one officer did or did not do something another officer did or did not do is not indicative of anything. Different Officers have different POV and different training and experience. One officer can see something another officer present cannot or did not, or both officers could see something but only one might recognize it for what it was due to their training and experience.

The Graham standard is “objective reasonableness” - objective meaning based on facts - I.e. suspects get shot because of what they do or fail to do. So observing relevant behaviors is part of PID / decision to use force.

PID would include observing he was not following commands (what he failed to do) and observing his movements reaching for his waistband look like the movements of a handgun draw stroke (what he did).

Facts known to the officers at the time are also relevant. The officers had the info from the 911 call which included the suspect having a handgun. Though a handgun was not visible, it was reasonable, based on the 911 information for the officers to proceed on the basis the suspect had a handgun.


Read the Graham case. It will answer many of your questions.

In Graham the officer was factually wrong but his actions were reasonable based on what he knew at the time.

Cops don’t have the option to just walk away - responding to these situations is their job. As the Supreme Court said these situations are “tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving.” That’s a fancy way of saying you get a shit sandwich, and are required to make decisions with limited, incomplete, or in this case bad info. That is why the standard is “objectively reasonable” given the facts availible at the time and the officers training and experience without 20/20 hindsight.

[andre3k]

I’m curious to know whether these were patrol guys or actually SWAT? Most agencies (including many big cities) don’t have full time SWAT so a SWAT response is an hour away, at least.

I was wondering the same thing. I have two part time SWAT guys and a bomb tech on my squad. My agency has full-time team but has part-timers they use as their applicant pool for when a full-time position opens up. They usually get about 6-7 years part time before they can even apply for a full time spot.

So when we respond to an incident like this or run a warrant, technically I have SWAT guys already on scene but it's not a SWAT response. The media might have a difficult time differentiating between these two situations.



On another note, I never take what the dispatcher tells me or whats in the call slip at face value. My dispatchers and call takers have gotten information wrong too many times. That's not a knock on them especially when they often receive bad information (like in this case). I try to keep the mindset of trust but verify. If the department releases more of the body cam video and video from different officers we might have a better picture of what caused the officer to shoot.

[voodoo_man]

PID = positive identification as Lon stated is essential in this type of situation. Having the ability to make a life and death judgment call based on the lack of PID is very likely to cause these types of circumstances. PID should refer to threat discrimination. Positive PID should be being able to determine the threat level effectively, negative PID should be the inability to determine the threat level, or at least that's how I was taught. In this particular case positive PID would have been an officer with bino's or higher magnification optic which could make the shoot call. Someone without the visual vantage cannot and should not make that call.

In this particular situation people questioning the actions of the officer should research deadly force case law such as Graham v Connor, TN v Garner, Terry v OH, and Google what objectively reasonable means, what probable cause means and how it is applied in the real world, as well as, how police use of deadly force cannot be based on perfect 20/20 hindsight, but has to be weighed against what the officer knew at that moment and how a reasonable officer would respond to those facts.

Beyond all that, no officer is ever expected to wait until a person is actively shooting them or stabbing them to use deadly force.

[CCT125US]

Out of curiousity, for those advocating the cops doing more "due diligence," can you tell me what that looks like? How the officers could go about doing that?

Since I believe I was the first to use the term, allow me to clarify. I am not advocating for more of anything. Simply curious about what verification is done prior to engaging a possible suspect. The whole situation is unfortunate, and will hopefully generate positive discussion across the country.

[STI]

There's been quite a few posts talking about PID being enhanced with a 1-4, 1-6 over an Aimpoint or irons. I don't think anyone would argue that. At the same time, I can't find info about what the LE who made the shot was using. Is it known?

[rdtompki]

These discussions really help (us) civilians understand what law enforcement has to deal with. Looking at the news the phrase "domestic disturbance" doesn't do the dangers associated with an LE intervention justice; I'm sure no one in your profession casually walks up to a domestic disturbance think the couple were just arguing about taking out the trash. The caller seems to have portrayed a real situation. Don't worry, the miscreant will get off: hasn't the World Health Organization just declared video gaming as a mental disorder? Large segments of the next generation are going down the dumper.

[Totem Polar]

Generally I am not a fan of making an example but this hoax should be dealt with harshly.

Useful fix is to forget examples, and make harsh punishment a rule going forward. Gamer dude absolutely set the stage for an innocent getting killed.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Interestingly, a few months back in one of the cities in our county, a guy did kill his father and set fire to the house. He was up on the roof when LE arrived at the scene.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Since I believe I was the first to use the term, allow me to clarify. I am not advocating for more of anything. Simply curious about what verification is done prior to engaging a possible suspect.

Prior to engaging in what way? Going to the location? Making the decision to try contacting the residents by phone or PA? Responding his actions that appear non-compliant and look like drawing a handgun he is bringing up to shoot?

A call comes in claiming an event is happening at a given location. Say, you call your local dispatch center saying neighbor is threatening you right, what does the verification or due diligence you've mentioned look like to you? Do the dispatchers call other neighbors to confirm or deny before they give it to the street cops? Or is it dispatched to the officers who should then call other neighbors while looking up agency records in their car? If not either of those, what do you envision them doing when they get to the location of the call?

Unfortunately, people are imprecise with the language. So, we get set to an in-progress robbery (because that what the person calling in insists is going on no matter how well the dispatcher's questioning goes) only to find out its an hours old burglary. Two people having a disagreement isn't a major fight, yet we get those calls. And, rather emotive interpersonal intimate relations have oft been reported as in-progress domestic violence calls.

At some point we have to make contact with the people involved, or present, to find out what is really happening. As a supervisor, given what I have heard of the circumstances on this call, I am not letting my guys go up and knock on the door. i envision containment, a perimeter followed by a call of some sort into the house to get people to come out. If they do, great we can get information. If they don't, that is information too and we can work it from there.

From the little I can see in this case, the coppers established containment, make some sort of call or announcement to get the guy out onto the porch. And then the video kicks in. Had his actions been different, the coppers could have detained & interviewed him.

[Coyotesfan97]

I have no personal knowledge of the facts of this case, but we have for some time been trying to impress on officers (with only marginal success) the need to have designated lethal cover officers on some situations...especially those involving communication/negotiations or the use of less lethal means. This frees up other officers to concentrate on other tasks, and can potentially avoid the fusillade of lethal fire that seems to inflame some sentiments, because "why didn't they shoot him just once?" As others have commented, in today's Environment, responding to calls like this are essentially no-win situations for cops. Even if no shots had been fired, some people would complain the cops were too heavy handed, or stupid not to realize it was a prank call.

Yes! At least when I was on SWAT we always had designated shooters. I know of one incident specifically where a probationary Officer was removed from the team after he shot from a perimeter position following a direct order not to engage the suspect when she came out.

It’s a lot harder to achieve this with Patrol Officers specifically newer ones that don’t like to take direction. It takes direct sometimes harsh orders just to get one to put a rifle away and get their beanbag shotgun.

[hufnagel]

Yes! At least when I was on SWAT we always had designated shooters. I know of one incident specifically where a probationary Officer was removed from the team after he shot from a perimeter position following a direct order not to engage the suspect when she came out.

It’s a lot harder to achieve this with Patrol Officers specifically newer ones that don’t like to take direction. It takes direct sometimes harsh orders just to get one to put a rifle away and get their beanbag shotgun.

That, right there, scares the shit out of me.

[voodoo_man]

Yes! At least when I was on SWAT we always had designated shooters. I know of one incident specifically where a probationary Officer was removed from the team after he shot from a perimeter position following a direct order not to engage the suspect when she came out.

It’s a lot harder to achieve this with Patrol Officers specifically newer ones that don’t like to take direction. It takes direct sometimes harsh orders just to get one to put a rifle away and get their beanbag shotgun.

This is one of the issues with younger officers who are inexperienced they may do whatever they want and not realize there is a bigger play.

Designated shooters is an easy answer to sympathetic fire. I've seen it happen first hand on two different occasions and the results were always and. Not the shoots they were good, but the fact that the answer to "why did you fire" was "because he did" is bad, really bad.

[Coyotesfan97]

That, right there, scares the shit out of me.

I’m glad I’m senior and I’m in a unit that is under the Tactical Umbrella. Most of our handlers are senior Officers with SWAT experience. We’re expected to handle scenes. New Officers and New Sergeants are what scare me. Most willl take suggestions. Some will not.

[blues]

I’m glad I’m senior and I’m in a unit that is under the Tactical Umbrella. Most of our handlers are senior Officers with SWAT experience. We’re expected to handle scenes. New Officers and New Sergeants are what scare me. Most willl take suggestions. Some will not.

It happens everywhere, it seems. I had one member of our SRT that I told specifically not to deploy a flashbang when we were making entry and of course what does he do? He lobs one that lands in front of the primary, (I was secondary), and sets the carpet on fire as we were making our way up a set of stairs toward the bedroom where the subject was located. (He eventually got promoted to D.C.)

Another idiot, after taking down a smuggling group outside an adult entertainment location in Ft. Lauderdale decided to hit a handcuffed prisoner in the face which caused me to lose it and end up putting him on the ground. (Naturally, it had to happen when I was acting group supe for a couple of weeks...a job I never sought.)

I usually put these sorts of events out of mind until I read something around here that brings back the memories.

[Nephrology]

It’s a lot harder to achieve this with Patrol Officers specifically newer ones that don’t like to take direction. It takes direct sometimes harsh orders just to get one to put a rifle away and get their beanbag shotgun.

In medical education this resistance to training is overcome by the oldest tool in the MD curriculum - public humiliation. I can tell you that the mistakes I have made that were thusly corrected I have never repeated. Sadly it is going out of style because ~~feelings~~ but some mistakes should not be made twice.

I understand why some think it sounds cruel, but it also selects for trainees that have the self-esteem and perspective to recognize that you can be talented and still o something incredibly stupid. It also strips people of their egoes, something that has been beneficial to me in nearly every aspect of my life... but I digress.

[voodoo_man]

In medical education this resistance to training is overcome by the oldest tool in the MD curriculum - public humiliation. I can tell you that the mistakes I have made that were thusly corrected I have never repeated. Sadly it is going out of style because ~~feelings~~ but some mistakes should not be made twice.

I understand why some think it sounds cruel, but it also selects for trainees that have the self-esteem and perspective to recognize that you can be talented and still o something incredibly stupid. It also strips people of their egoes, something that has been beneficial to me in nearly every aspect of my life... but I digress.

Humiliation, public ridicule, physical punishment and negative reinforcement are all very valid tools in teaching proper concepts. Like you said, however, people have feelings and are their own special snowflake types who seem to complain when these things are done. Disregarding the fact they messed up and hopefully didn't kill anyone in the process. Although sometimes they do, and then it's too late.

[hufnagel]

I do long for the return to the days when a smack upside the head was an allowed method to remind someone something they just did was really fucking stupid. The mental reboot it created on the recipient (in most cases) seemed to solve most problems.

[DocGKR]

"Sadly it is going out of style because ~~feelings~~ but some mistakes should not be made twice."

While healthcare education has improved in many areas, it appears to be serious lagging behind in some critical aspects because of this issue...

[Nephrology]

While healthcare education has improved in many areas, it appears to be serious lagging behind in some critical aspects because of this issue...

I would be pretty surprised if you hadn't noticed a decline in the quality of the trainees rotating through your practice.

From my perspective, it seems to be largely generational. My matriculating MD class of ~185 had a mean age of 26, and from my anecdotal experience it seemed like the students who were >25 at matriculation still largely do very well with direct feedback. Those <25 ... not so much. On the whole, they seem to have a sense of entitlement and hyper-reactivity to perceived criticism that makes them very difficult to work with. One trainee I know of became deeply indignant when she was yelled at for letting an unauthorized person into the NICU. What the hell!

[DocGKR]

[quote]"On the whole, they seem to have a sense of entitlement and hyper-reactivity to perceived criticism that makes them very difficult to work with."[/quote

This does indeed occur with greater frequency now than in past decades...

[45dotACP]

[quote]"On the whole, they seem to have a sense of entitlement and hyper-reactivity to perceived criticism that makes them very difficult to work with."[/quote

This does indeed occur with greater frequency now than in past decades...Lord knows I had the damndest time getting a 43 year old RN to take some constructive feedback from my young ass.

That said, dating people my age has been a hell of a thing because if I ask what they're planning to do with their life they get all triggered so I see where you're coming from.

I'm too old to be this young.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk