1911 thumb safety vs finger off trigger

[ASH556]

Perhaps it is my lack of dexterity, but I struggle to move my finger from ejection port register down into the trigger guard while still maintaining a firing grip and operating the manual safety on a 1911. Is there a “taught” or “best practices” way to to this manipulation? At what point in the draw cycle do you operate the safety on a 1911? Is it only right before pressing the trigger, once sights are fully aligned, or do you do it at point 3 of the draw (through the press out)?

Another way of thinking about it would be to ask which is your “final” safety with the 1911: Finger out of the trigger guard or manual safety engaged?

Let’s say we know there’s a threat, but not an immediate need to shoot. “Searching” let’s say. With a Glock (my primary) I go to ejection port register with my finger. Would you safe the 1911 at that point, or just come out of the trigger guard?

Thanks!

[spinmove_]

My admittedly limited understanding is that it’s the same procedure for a rifle/long gun safety. Sights on target, safety off. Sights off target, safety on. Trigger finger only on trigger when you’ve made the decision to fire.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Peally]

I don't register my trigger finger on the ejection port on any handgun, my finger doesn't bend that way longer than a few seconds. I'm a horrible person and just use the frame above the trigger instead.

As far as me personally assuming you're drawing to an immediate shot the safety naturally comes off the moment the gun clears the holster. The "final" safety will always be your finger not pulling the trigger, the mechanical safety is just there for... well, safety.

With searching I think you're going to get different situational answers but best practice is safeties always on if you're not shooting. On my HK45 I wouldn't if I was just going through my house though, due to the way the oddball safety/decocker lever works and my potential for disabling the gun with a strong grip (but then it's also a DA/SA). Same with Berettas, to me the safety on those are basically just for storage situations since I have such a damn hard time easily moving them. 1911s and ARs are easy so they would stay on.

[HopetonBrown]

I had a local instructor tell me I was disengaging the safety too soon on my 1911 from the holster. I was disengaging about 10 to 15 degrees from horizontal.

Louis Awerbuck said I was 10 to 15 degrees away from what he does, but didn't see a problem. He also said to ask that instructor where in the drawstoke he removed the safety on his Glock.

I shared my story and demoed my draw to Mike Pannone. He shrugged his shoulders and said it looked fine to him.

[Bucky]

I've adopted a method where I pull my finger outward away from the gun when my finger is not on the trigger. Of course this method is ideal for competition as it gives a very clear indication to the RO that your finger is not in the trigger guard.

[JHC]

Offing the 1911 safety from the draw has two components for my use of the pistol.

1. Is the decision that I'm actually going to fire or not.
2. The pistol is out in front of me with its muzzle down range. I do NOT want to off the safety as soon as I clear leather.

In the OP scenario of a perceived possible threat without a decision yet made to shoot - I would not off the safety but draw to high ready or index with safety on and finger indexed on the frame. Like Peally, I cannot easily index in the ejection port either and go for the frame.

[41magfan]

Cooper believed that the thumb safety should be disengaged at step three (Click) in the *5-step presentation. For me personally, I indeed found that to be the only surefire method of ensuring the safety was disengaged effectively when forced to shoot from retention.

Under any other circumstance, I kept the safety engaged and my finger registered on the frame anytime the sights were not on the target.

YMMV

* GRIP - CLEAR - CLICK - SMACK - LOOK

[ASH556]

Cooper believed that the thumb safety should be disengaged at step three (Click) in the *5-step presentation. For me personally, I indeed found that to be the only surefire method of ensuring the safety was disengaged effectively when forced to shoot from retention.

Under any other circumstance, I kept the safety engaged and my finger registered on the frame anytime the sights were not on the target.

YMMV


* GRIP - CLEAR - CLICK - SMACK - LOOK
I’m assuming “smack” is both hands joining to achieve grip?

[ASH556]

In messing with the two side by side I have identified what I believe is the primary issue for me:

The trigger guard on the 1911 is quite a bit smaller. The issue comes as my finger moves from register (frame or ejection port) into the trigger guard. Because the Glock is larger I can come straight down and in. Because the 1911 is smaller I have to move my finger away from the gun, bend it, and reinsert it I to the trigger guard. This feels odd/uncomfortable. Something I’ll have to work on.

[41magfan]

I’m assuming “smack” is both hands joining to achieve grip?

Correct

[ASH556]

In messing with the two side by side I have identified what I believe is the primary issue for me:

The trigger guard on the 1911 is quite a bit smaller. The issue comes as my finger moves from register (frame or ejection port) into the trigger guard. Because the Glock is larger I can come straight down and in. Because the 1911 is smaller I have to move my finger away from the gun, bend it, and reinsert it I to the trigger guard. This feels odd/uncomfortable. Something I’ll have to work on.

Meant to include this picture with this reply:

22658

[Robinson]

If I'm drawing to fire, the safety comes off as I begin to press out. If drawing to a low ready, the safety stays on.

I keep my trigger finger on the frame just below the slide, though I am experimenting with moving it up higher onto the slide. It's not as natural or comfortable, but once during a class I noticed the slide release had moved out just a bit because of pressure from my trigger finger. But it feels more natural that way so I'm not sure I'll make the change or not.

[TC215]

The way we teach the 1911 is on-target=safety off and off-target=safety on.

[JohnO]

At what point in the draw cycle do you operate the safety on a 1911? Is it only right before pressing the trigger, once sights are fully aligned, or do you do it at point 3 of the draw (through the press out)?

Another way of thinking about it would be to ask which is your “final” safety with the 1911: Finger out of the trigger guard or manual safety engaged?

Let’s say we know there’s a threat, but not an immediate need to shoot. “Searching” let’s say. With a Glock (my primary) I go to ejection port register with my finger. Would you safe the 1911 at that point, or just come out of the trigger guard?

Thanks!

When I feel my support hand make contact with the pistol the safety comes off if I am going straight to firing. If I am getting the gun out but have not made the decision to shoot yet the safety stays on.

Regarding the "final" safety. If I am not on target I am not on the trigger. If I am not on the trigger then the safety is engaged.

[JohnO]

In messing with the two side by side I have identified what I believe is the primary issue for me:

The trigger guard on the 1911 is quite a bit smaller. The issue comes as my finger moves from register (frame or ejection port) into the trigger guard. Because the Glock is larger I can come straight down and in. Because the 1911 is smaller I have to move my finger away from the gun, bend it, and reinsert it I to the trigger guard. This feels odd/uncomfortable. Something I’ll have to work on.

I have a short trigger on all my 1911's. Aside from liking the combination of an arched mainspring housing and short trigger for reach and how it feels it also affords more open space inside the trigger guard.

[Bucky]

As someone who rides a 1911 safety (I'm sure many of us do), taking the safety off is a natural part (for me) of gripping the gun. If my safety is not on, I'm not properly gripping the gun. YMMV.

[Corey]

I had the Jeff Cooper way of running a 1911 reinforced for several years. My trigger finger index is on the slide, just touching the bottom of the ejection port. Trying to be all the way on the ejection port is just a little too uncomfortable for me. I take the safety off on the 3rd step of the 5 step draw unless I know I am drawing to a ready position, then I leave the safety on. I also ride the safety on a 1911, but it is not difficult for me to leave the safety on while doing that.

[MGW]

I have nothing new to add except that I can not reliably click the safety off if I have completed my grip with my left hand. The base of my support thumb is in the way. I take the safety off as I start to press out but before I have completed my grip. Trigger finger is registered on the frame below the ejection port. My finger doesn’t reach the ejection port either.

[That Guy]

Another finger on the frame guy here. If I try to keep my trigger finger registered very high on the slide, it interferes with the ambidextrous safety on my 1911's. (I'm left-handed, so the ambidextrous safety is a must.) So I use the end of the slide release lever as my index.

If the decision to fire has been made prior to drawing, I take the safety off at #2 (using SouthNarc's verbiage). One might have to shoot from the 2 in some situations, so the safety always comes off at the 2.

If the decision to fire has not been made, then it's "off target, on safe".

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[Erick Gelhaus]

Cooper believed that the thumb safety should be disengaged at step three (Click) in the *5-step presentation. For me personally, I indeed found that to be the only surefire method of ensuring the safety was disengaged effectively when forced to shoot from retention.

Under any other circumstance, I kept the safety engaged and my finger registered on the frame anytime the sights were not on the target.

YMMV

* GRIP - CLEAR - CLICK - SMACK - LOOK

So, Yes but no too.
If one was drawing with the decision to shoot having been made, then this is / was Yes. If one was drawing to the Guard, low ready, to challenge someone then the safety stayed on until the decision to fire was made.
Click, the point at which one rotates the muzzlew from downward to horizontal & onto the threat, should be equal to the retention position. It is not extended forward.

With the movement away from 1911s and to polymer frame pistols without external mechanical thumb safeties some of this got lost. Having moved from a 1911 to a M&P to a Glock and soon back to the M&P, I get the need for a discussion. I am a fan of the idea that when one is Off Target they are On Safe and when On Target they are Off Safe - regardless of the platform as long as it has an ergonomic (frame mounted) thumb safety - like the 1911, M&P, AR, etc.

As for an index point, being a left hander I could not do an ejection port index if I tried. My preference has been the Frame / Slide interface.

[41magfan]

So, Yes but no too.
If one was drawing with the decision to shoot having been made, then this is / was Yes. If one was drawing to the Guard, low ready, to challenge someone then the safety stayed on until the decision to fire was made.
Click, the point at which one rotates the muzzlew from downward to horizontal & onto the threat, should be equal to the retention position. It is not extended forward.

With the movement away from 1911s and to polymer frame pistols without external mechanical thumb safeties some of this got lost. Having moved from a 1911 to a M&P to a Glock and soon back to the M&P, I get the need for a discussion. I am a fan of the idea that when one is Off Target they are On Safe and when On Target they are Off Safe - regardless of the platform as long as it has an ergonomic (frame mounted) thumb safety - like the 1911, M&P, AR, etc.

As for an index point, being a left hander I could not do an ejection port index if I tried. My preference has been the Frame / Slide interface.

"At what point in the draw cycle do you operate the safety on a 1911? Is it only right before pressing the trigger, once sights are fully aligned, or do you do it at point 3 of the draw (through the press out)?"


I was addressing the subject in the context of the OP's question and I used the term "presentation" deliberately. I would think it goes without saying that there are a host of reasons you would manipulate the safety differently if you weren't presenting the gun to the target with the intentions of firing.

I apologize if I wasn't clear with my response.

[CraigS]

In messing with the two side by side I have identified what I believe is the primary issue for me:

The trigger guard on the 1911 is quite a bit smaller. The issue comes as my finger moves from register (frame or ejection port) into the trigger guard. Because the Glock is larger I can come straight down and in. Because the 1911 is smaller I have to move my finger away from the gun, bend it, and reinsert it I to the trigger guard. This feels odd/uncomfortable. Something I’ll have to work on.

Looks to me that the actual internal area of the trigger guards are very similar. But the 1911 is much closer to the grip than the Glock. I have no 1911 experience so this may be a dumb question. As w/ many current pistols, which have various sized back straps, is there something similar available for a 1911?

[JustOneGun]

Trigger finger as high up on the frame as a shooter can (slide if you can get there).

I liked to keep the 1911 simple. When the trigger finger moves down to go on the trigger the safety comes down(off). Opposite when the finger comes off the safety. Usually for most the finger should be moving to the trigger at the end of step 3 at the earliest. For some they have problems doing two things at once (small hands) and they take the safety off right before they move the finger.

[Mas]

If I'm drawing to fire, the safety comes off as I begin to press out. If drawing to a low ready, the safety stays on.

I keep my trigger finger on the frame just below the slide, though I am experimenting with moving it up higher onto the slide. It's not as natural or comfortable, but once during a class I noticed the slide release had moved out just a bit because of pressure from my trigger finger. But it feels more natural that way so I'm not sure I'll make the change or not.

I've seen the same problem with right-handed shooters and straight finger on 1911s.

One solution that we've found to work very well: index the fingertip just behind the protruding stud of the slide stop. (Fingernail rests against the side of the stud that is toward the shooter.)

This keeps the finger right in position to enter the small trigger guard when shooter decides to do so.

Being above the trigger guard, finger is less likely to snap into trigger than if held with straight finger on front of guard, as has been taught in some quarters.

If finger does inadvertently enter the guard, it's coming ACROSS the trigger --- vastly less likely to cause unintended discharge.

More resistant to disarming attempts. Most disarms will begin with a lateral strike to the gun to get it off the assailant's midline. Strike to the right against a right-handed defender drives the pistol against a straight index finger, whether that finger is on slide or frame. This hyperextends the index finger back toward the wrist, sympathetically releasing the pistol and leaving the attacker with the good guy's gun, and good guy perhaps with a broken trigger finger to boot. Flexed finger is much more resistant to such a strike, less likely to cause sympathetic opening of other fingers, and is therefore much stronger against a disarming attempt.

[JTQ]

Gunsite's Ed Head on a GunTalk TV video, at about the :40 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGGxwJrrABY

[Robinson]

I've seen the same problem with right-handed shooters and straight finger on 1911s.

One solution that we've found to work very well: index the fingertip just behind the protruding stud of the slide stop. (Fingernail rests against the side of the stud that is toward the shooter.)

This keeps the finger right in position to enter the small trigger guard when shooter decides to do so.

Being above the trigger guard, finger is less likely to snap into trigger than if held with straight finger on front of guard, as has been taught in some quarters.

If finger does inadvertently enter the guard, it's coming ACROSS the trigger --- vastly less likely to cause unintended discharge.

More resistant to disarming attempts. Most disarms will begin with a lateral strike to the gun to get it off the assailant's midline. Strike to the right against a right-handed defender drives the pistol against a straight index finger, whether that finger is on slide or frame. This hyperextends the index finger back toward the wrist, sympathetically releasing the pistol and leaving the attacker with the good guy's gun, and good guy perhaps with a broken trigger finger to boot. Flexed finger is much more resistant to such a strike, less likely to cause sympathetic opening of other fingers, and is therefore much stronger against a disarming attempt.

Thanks for addressing my comment Mr. Ayoob. I will certainly try what you have suggested.

[Lomshek]

I'm just a punk kid compared to Mas and others but have taught (and use) something similar to Mas' method depending on the gun/hand. Sometimes the pad of the trigger finger can rest on the bottom edge of the ejection port or a relief cut on the bottom edge of the slide and sometimes it sits on, on top of or around the slide stop stud or some other tactile part of the gun that is high up above the trigger.

For students I try to identify something they can feel in the area above the trigger that locates their finger in a safe extended position. Any kind of tactile indicator is good as it reminds them where their finger should (or should not) be.

[Wayne Dobbs]

As somebody who appreciates the fact that a cocked and locked 1911 is extremely proprietary to the user, and who's alive today because of that feature, I've taught for decades that the thumb safety is not deactivated until you have a shoot decision. My preference is to do that when hands meet on the way to a shot. If the gun is to be deployed to a ready position (which is way over 99% of the time in actual street usage), then the safety stays on with thumb resting on top and the trigger finger is in register on the frame/slide above the trigger guard.

[JohnO]

I've taught for decades that the thumb safety is not deactivated until you have a shoot decision. My preference is to do that when hands meet on the way to a shot.

Yes. I agree.

The Ed Head Gunsite video linked above depicts the safety coming off a tad too early for me. It may only be a fraction of a second too early but I really like knowing that my support hand is safe before I disengage the safety.

A whole bunch of years ago I was in my basement practicing presentations. I was using a dry gun and a timer. I was doing a few then paring off a tenth rinse and repeat and trying to beat the buzzer. Somewhere down in the ludicrous zone 0.7ish I screwed up and got my support hand out in front of the muzzle and drove the muzzle into my palm. This never left my mind. Ever since that happened it became very important to not disengage a safety or prep the trigger until I know I am not muzzling my support hand.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Yes. I agree. (added .... With What Wayne Wrote)

The Ed Head Gunsite video linked above depicts the safety coming off a tad too early for me. It may only be a fraction of a second too early but I really like knowing that my support hand is safe before I disengage the safety.


The reason it is taught that way is the mechanical safety is only coming off because the decision to fire has been made and that is (generally) where one will shoot from if having to work out of the retention position. My "clear" and "rotate" take place higher up because my retention position is higher up. If drawing to the ready, regardless of which one, which indicates the decision to fire has not yet been made, the safety stays on until that decision is made and the pistol comes on the threat, target, etc.

Whether the support hand is flat on the torso or in contact with it and fingers entended (I see both), the muzzle rotating up should not be crossing ones fingers, hand. Have yet to see anyone ND into the fingers, hand at this point; yet, I just saw another guy who shot himself in the hand after disassembling his Glock.

[JohnO]

The reason it is taught that way is the mechanical safety is only coming off because the decision to fire has been made and that is (generally) where one will shoot from if having to work out of the retention position. My "clear" and "rotate" take place higher up because my retention position is higher up. If drawing to the ready, regardless of which one, which indicates the decision to fire has not yet been made, the safety stays on until that decision is made and the pistol comes on the threat, target, etc.

Whether the support hand is flat on the torso or in contact with it and fingers entended (I see both), the muzzle rotating up should not be crossing ones fingers, hand. Have yet to see anyone ND into the fingers, hand at this point; yet, I just saw another guy who shot himself in the hand after disassembling his Glock.

I get all that. My point was to elaborate upon what I experienced when I really pushed myself to an extreme. I was trying to faster and faster until the wheels fell off. I felt I had reached that point when my hands got out of sync.

[RevolverRob]

the safety stays on with thumb resting on top...

I wanted to cut this down, to specifically emphasize this point. For me, the 1911 safety is on, until I go to press the gun out, the safety comes off as my support hand palm wraps around the grip*. BUT my thumb is riding the safety from the moment I get a master grip on the gun, when the gun is still in the holster. The reason for this is two-fold. 1) I have a tactile register point that tells me my grip is "correct", when I ride the safety. 2) I can remove the safety and fire from the "2" position without issue.

*If both hands come together in low ready, then safety stays on, until somewhere in the 5-10 degree range of the press-out. I can work the safety with both hands registered on the gun and finger on the frame or on the ejection port.

If you guys cannot swipe the safety down, while holding the gun with two hands - you need to address this, in my opinion. The gun should be optimized to function with the master grip and capable of being operated one-handed. Thinner or thicker grips? Different angle on the safety? There are so many 1911 parts, find the combo that works correctly (read: the combo that allows you to manipulate the safety with a two-handed grip).

[JTQ]

...BUT my thumb is riding the safety from the moment I get a master grip on the gun, when the gun is still in the holster.
I've always considered this a key point in 1911 gun handling. Ed Head talks about it in the above video.

I've been on several forums, and the constant comments from the typical non-1911 fan about the "I'll never use a gun with a manual safety for personal defense because in the heat of battle I'll forget to disengage the safety", are probably because they don't always have their thumb on the thumb safety from the time they get a grip on the holstered gun. If you're always on the safety, I think it is less likely you'll forget to either disengage or engage it when appropriate.

This problem seems to have increased as the size of sweat shields have gotten bigger and bigger, as folks have searched for more and more comfort from their holsters with less concern for draw and reholstering functions. These holsters make it difficult to get to the thumb safety while the gun is holstered.

For instance, Todd's post in pistol-training.com http://pistol-training.com/archives/9692

[Robinson]

This problem seems to have increased as the size of sweat shields have gotten bigger and bigger, as folks have searched for more and more comfort from their holsters with less concern for draw and reholstering functions. These holsters make it difficult to get to the thumb safety while the gun is holstered.

I carry a 1911 in a JMCK AIWB holster with a full guard. The top ridge of the guard actually provides a nice place to index my thumb during the draw. When I establish my grip I place my thumb on that ridge -- then as I draw, my thumb naturally transitions to the safety because of the positioning. This is consistently repeatable and for me it is a better method than trying to place my thumb directly on the safety before the draw begins. Of course this is user and holster specific.

[BillSWPA]

If I have made the decision to shoot, my 1911 safety comes off with a gun at about a 45° angle pointed downward, after it has clearly cleared the holster and is pointed nowhere near me, but early enough to ensure the safety is off by the time the gun comes to a pectoral index. If I have not made the decision to shoot, the safety stays on safe. In all cases, the safety comes off well before my finger enters the trigger guard. My thumb rides the safety the entire time if I am using two handed grip, but with a one hand grip, my thumb comes off the safety as soon as the safety is off. I was also taught that the safety goes back on safe when not aiming at a target.

I do not find that a sweat shield interferes with my draw, and prefer it to prevent unintentionally deactivating a single side thumb safety. With an ambi safety, I use a holster made by Matt Del Fatti with what would normally be a sweat shield modified and reinforced to hold the safety on safe.

[SW CQB 45]

I like this post.

I am actually returning to 1911 duty carry after parking it around 2012. My assignment changed (IA) and had some surgeries and driving a desk... the lighter Glock seemed to make more sense. 2018 is the year of 1911 for me and having snags with my grip (I have ALOT of draws with a G17/19).

I did not realize that for me and due to hand size.....the thumb safety has to come off prior to hand smack (support hand grip). I have long arms, large hands and long fingers (get made fun of a lot) and my support hand is blocking the bottom side of the thumb safety. I do not get a comfortable "snick" if I depress the thumb safety post full support hand grip.

So, when I was practicing dry fire from the holster....I broke it down when do I actually depress the thumb safety. My muzzle is in the high 90% almost parallel with the ground and my support hand has already started to grip but prior to full support.... the safety goes "snick". I tried it post full support hand....I do not get the audible "snick" due to hand interference.

It also made me realize if my support hand is blocking the thumb safety, how do I return to safe with a 2 handed grip. I broke that down and w/o even thinking about it....instinctively the top portion of my support hand rolled out of the way just enough for my primary hand thumb to engage the thumb safety.

Most of my draws will be out of a Safariland 6360 or a 7378 and the pressing of the ALS device does not lend itself well to a 1911 thumb safety, but I slowed down enough to just ride the safety lever and only depress when the muzzle is nearing the target intention.

thanks for the information

[TheNewbie]

I like this post.

I am actually returning to 1911 duty carry after parking it around 2012. My assignment changed (IA) and had some surgeries and driving a desk... the lighter Glock seemed to make more sense. 2018 is the year of 1911 for me and having snags with my grip (I have ALOT of draws with a G17/19).

I did not realize that for me and due to hand size.....the thumb safety has to come off prior to hand smack (support hand grip). I have long arms, large hands and long fingers (get made fun of a lot) and my support hand is blocking the bottom side of the thumb safety. I do not get a comfortable "snick" if I depress the thumb safety post full support hand grip.

So, when I was practicing dry fire from the holster....I broke it down when do I actually depress the thumb safety. My muzzle is in the high 90% almost parallel with the ground and my support hand has already started to grip but prior to full support.... the safety goes "snick". I tried it post full support hand....I do not get the audible "snick" due to hand interference.

It also made me realize if my support hand is blocking the thumb safety, how do I return to safe with a 2 handed grip. I broke that down and w/o even thinking about it....instinctively the top portion of my support hand rolled out of the way just enough for my primary hand thumb to engage the thumb safety.

Most of my draws will be out of a Safariland 6360 or a 7378 and the pressing of the ALS device does not lend itself well to a 1911 thumb safety, but I slowed down enough to just ride the safety lever and only depress when the muzzle is nearing the target intention.

thanks for the information

Does the ALS lead to taking the safety off too soon?

[SW CQB 45]

Does the ALS lead to taking the safety off too soon?

The potential is there. When I started using the 6360 with my MCOP, I was depressing the thumb safety as my thumb continued from the ALS lever. I also trimmed the excess kydex by the ALS lever as it directed my thumb away in an awkward manner.

I had to consciously think about not depressing the thumb safety while coming out of the holster. It did take me some repetitions but now my thumb stops directly over the engaged thumb safety.

https://i.imgur.com/8ayg9Qu.jpg

[Amp]

How LAV does it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv49JJd_-Mk