Beretta slides breaking are common?

[03RN]

That's what a SME AD Marine over on Arfcom says. He's been a wealth of information in the past, I'd just like some more info from some different sources.

I posted a lighthearted "I love my new M9A3" in GD and it kinda started some bickering but did lead to him chiming in.

Anyways, what's the word on slides breaking ?

"It is relatively common. It’s a basic engineering flaw. It’s not just due to ammunition either. M882 is hot, but not nuclear hot.

Round counts = Zero (out of the bag) to unknown."

I'm waiting for some more info to read. There's just a lot signal to noise in GD so any more info would be great.

[GJM]

No, not common at all these days. There was an issue many years ago, probably around the time they figured out that the M16 needed lube. :)

[03RN]

Hmmm, that's not what is being passed on.

[WobblyPossum]

Everything I've ever read about Beretta 92 slides breaking said this mostly stemmed from Navy SEALs firing really hot submachine gun ammunition through the pistols. Beretta beefed up a few things, including enlarging the hammer pin to catch the slide and prevent it from coming off the frame if it did happen to break, and the Navy guys stopped shooting SMG ammo through their 92s. My understanding is the problems pretty much went away after that.

[jkb4c]

There are several high-volume Beretta guys on this forum who will hopefully chime in, but I know there are a lot of 92s with high round counts out there. I think I remember reading that Ernest Langdon expects ~50k out of a standard 92 (and I would absolutely take his word for it). There's also that "high round count pistol observations" thread on arfcom where the guy has a standard-slide 92FS break after 100,000+ on his rental range.

The slides will eventually crack at that thin area where the locking block interfaces, but I would be surprised if you didn't get your money's worth and then some out of your M9A3 before that happened.

[MSparks909]

Hmmm, that's not what is being passed on.

Take everything on Arfcom with a *huge* grain of salt...even from SME’s. It’s a non-issue, period.

[El Cid]

If what he says is true it's likely a product of the conventional military still refusing to do any kind of preventive maintenance on small arms. Anything will break over time especially if springs and such are not replaced as needed. Some places take leftover parts from a broken gun and use them in other broken guns. It's an endless cycle of worn parts replacing worn parts.

[TGS]

I've never heard of slides breaking on the M9 in a systemic manner, either in the .mil or private sector.

Is he claiming this is specific to the M9A3?

[HCM]

That's what a SME AD Marine over on Arfcom says. He's been a wealth of information in the past, I'd just like some more info from some different sources.

I posted a lighthearted "I love my new M9A3" in GD and it kinda started some bickering but did lead to him chiming in.

Anyways, what's the word on slides breaking ?

"It is relatively common. It’s a basic engineering flaw. It’s not just due to ammunition either. M882 is hot, but not nuclear hot.

Round counts = Zero (out of the bag) to unknown."

I'm waiting for some more info to read. There's just a lot signal to noise in GD so any more info would be great.

A big ball of horse shit with a tiny kernel of truth in the middle.

The U.S. military adopted the Beretta 92 in 1986. The early guns were manufactured in Europe. In the late 80s (87-88) Beretta had also secured a contract to supply French the G model 92’s. As part of this arrangement Beretta was obtaining steel and /or steel slide forging s from France. The steel was contaminated with Tellurium which can cause steel to become brittle and prone to premature cracking.

In 1987-88 there were several Beretta 92s which experienced slide failures, they were a mix of civilian (1) U.S. military (14) and French Military /LE Guns (unknown number).

Of the 14 U.S. military guns which failed, three were naval special warfare guns which failed during operational training, the other 11 failed during lab testing.

Another 1800 slides were found to have cracks but were replaced before failing.

The actual cause of the slide failures was bad metallurgy in a bad batch of slides. For reasons unknown, Beretta tried to blame the failures on the use of “high pressure” “SMG only”ammo but per the GAO the real reason, was bad metallurgy.

Either way, Beretta addressed the problem and it has not re-occurred.

So 14 Guns (really 3 Guns) suffering slide failures 30 years ago due to a bad batch of materials has turned into a giant ball of derp passed on in perpetuity.

AFAIK since Beretta began producing M9s in the U.S. around 1990, there have been no slide failures with the U.S. made guns.

[HCM]

Everything I've ever read about Beretta 92 slides breaking said this mostly stemmed from Navy SEALs firing really hot submachine gun ammunition through the pistols. Beretta beefed up a few things, including enlarging the hammer pin to catch the slide and prevent it from coming off the frame if it did happen to break, and the Navy guys stopped shooting SMG ammo through their 92s. My understanding is the problems pretty much went away after that.

That was Berettas story at the time. The GAO determined the actual cause was bad metallurgy. Basically bad batch of slides made with French steel contaminated with Tellurium.

https://www.gao.gov/products/T-NSIAD-88-46

[Sensei]

Current production 92 series slides are extremely durable; Brigadier slides are ridiculously durable. I have a couple of 92s approaching 60,000 rounds; no issues.

[e_stern]

Lack of PMI will cause issues with any tool.

Proper PMI will lead to 100k+ out of a 92, as has been shown with Battlefield Vegas' box stock police trade in 92FS rental gun. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/16/handgun-experiences-from-battlefield-las-vegas/100-000-observations/4-160140/

[WobblyPossum]

That was Berettas story at the time. The GAO determined the actual cause was bad metallurgy. Basically bad batch of slides made with French steel contaminated with Tellurium.

https://www.gao.gov/products/T-NSIAD-88-46

Thanks, I never knew that. I thought Beretta ended up suing the government for blaming the slide failures on bad metallurgy and was awarded a financial settlement. Do you know if that’s true?


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[HCM]

Current production 92 series slides are extremely durable; Brigadier slides are ridiculously durable. I have a couple of 92s approaching 60,000 rounds; no issues.

In 1996, the Army, conducted their Continued Assurance Test (CAT) of the M9 Pistol . In this test, 129 weapons were successfully fired to the 30,000 round mark. Four slides were pushed beyond the 30,000 limit. They averaged 75,250.

The Army fired more than 3 million rounds through the weapons.

When we issued 96D Brigadiers I saw and personally experienced many small parts failures but never saw or heard of a slide failure, even using hot 155 grain .40.

[HCM]

Thanks, I never knew that. I thought Beretta ended up suing the government for blaming the slide failures on bad metallurgy and was awarded a financial settlement. Do you know if that’s true?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not to my knowledge.

[TiroFijo]

Is a brigadier slide worth it for the beretta M9 series?

[P30]

French steel
French steel can be of very high quality. Heckler & Koch uses steel from Aubert & Duval, a French producer of special steel.

fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch#Histoire):

Depuis les années 1970, les canons de la totalité des armes de guerre fabriquées par H&K sont usinés dans des barreaux d'acier provenant de l'entreprise française Aubert et Duval.

Google translation (https://translate.google.de/?hl=de&tab=wT#fr/en/Depuis%20les%20ann%C3%A9es%201970%2C%20les%20canon s%20de%20la%20totalit%C3%A9%20des%20armes%20de%20g uerre%20fabriqu%C3%A9es%20par%20H%26K%20sont%20usi n%C3%A9s%20dans%20des%20barreaux%20d%27acier%20pro venant%20de%20l%27entreprise%20fran%C3%A7aise%20Au bert%20et%20Duval.):

Since the 1970s, the [barrels] of the totality of the weapons of war manufactured by H & K are machined in bars of steel coming from the French company Aubert and Duval.

static.hkpro.com/straightgrain/docs/TheHKDecades.pdf, p. 52:
Shows a picture from inside the HK factory captioned with:
Aubert Duval barrel steel blanks

(Writing this as a German, by the way.)

[Sensei]

In 1996, the Army, conducted their Continued Assurance Test (CAT) of the M9 Pistol . In this test, 129 weapons were successfully fired to the 30,000 round mark. Four slides were pushed beyond the 30,000 limit. They averaged 75,250.

The Army fired more than 3 million rounds through the weapons.

Your knowledge base in these matters is astounding - thank you. I’ve had these two pistols since I turned 21 back in the early 90s. I used them largely to train up for deployments between 1995-2012 since I generally used Glocks outside of the military. They rarely get shot now. Ironically, I even bought 2 Vertec slides last month when they went on sale. My plan was to convert them to G controls with AmeriGlo sights and let my son have them in a few years. Once again, thank you for the knowledge bomb.

[JTQ]

I'll admit, the first thing I did after reading the OP, was to check the date of the post. This seems like a question from 20 years ago. Of course, the M9/92 did seem to go through a period of lack of popularity when Glock's and other polymer guns took over the scene, and maybe the guys on the other forum just haven't paid attention to Beretta's in a long time.

Here's a Ben Stoeger video from when he was shooting Beretta's "A Few Hundred Thousand Rounds Later"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue8_uN0OIVs

Ernest Langdon "92FS/M9 Series Design Features"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8t-f54Im0



Is a brigadier slide worth it for the beretta M9 series?

My understanding is the Brigadier was designed for the .40 S&W guns, but just tagged along for the 9mm versions. It stuck around because some like the heavier slide, but is not really needed for 9mm.

[Clobbersaurus]

I shoot a Turkish 92 clone that is an older 92 style without the enlarged hammer pin.

So far I haven’t lost any teeth from the slide spontaneously exploding. :D

[HCM]

Is a brigadier slide worth it for the beretta M9 series?

My understanding is the Brig slide was intended to add mass /weight to the slide to compensate for .40 cal similar to SIGs transition to one piece stainless slides for the 226/229 .40.

[LangdonTactical]

Thanks, I never knew that. I thought Beretta ended up suing the government for blaming the slide failures on bad metallurgy and was awarded a financial settlement. Do you know if that’s true?


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Beretta did sue the Army, and there was a settlement paid out to Beretta.

[TiroFijo]

Beretta did sue the Army, and there was a settlement paid out to Beretta.

...se the bad metallurgy is true or not???

[Inkwell 41]

As an illustration to how absurd the story about Beretta 92 slides breaking got... In 1991, I was in a state law enforcement academy. Our class was the first for the agency to be trained on the 92FS. The joke at the time was the FS was the "new model" with an air bag. The department armorer told us that it was all on the SEALs as they, in an effort to get more performance out of the 9MM, were using C4..... yes the explosive, instead of powder, as the propellant. That story "came direct from "Beretta". People embellish crap all the time. I hate people.

[Sensei]

Is a brigadier slide worth it for the beretta M9 series?

For durability - no; for balance and recoil mitigation - absolutely.

I don’t alway shoot Berettas but when I do they are BrigTacs or CenTacs...;).

[Olim9]

There are several high-volume Beretta guys on this forum who will hopefully chime in, but I know there are a lot of 92s with high round counts out there. I think I remember reading that Ernest Langdon expects ~50k out of a standard 92 (and I would absolutely take his word for it). There's also that "high round count pistol observations" thread on arfcom where the guy has a standard-slide 92FS break after 100,000+ on his rental range.

Here's Ben Stoeger talking about his round counts on his Berettas he used. Like Langdon, I highly doubt Stoeger is lying about his round count.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue8_uN0OIVs&

[warpedcamshaft]

Chris Bartocci has a great video about what happened:


https://youtu.be/c2AZyOswi7g

[TiroFijo]

Here's Ben Stoeger talking about his round counts on his Berettas he used. Like Langdon, I highly doubt Stoeger is lying about his round count.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue8_uN0OIVs&

All those are Brigadier slides.

[LangdonTactical]

...se the bad metallurgy is true or not???

Not that I ever heard. I do know that the first batches of M882 ammo that the Army procured was basically all proof loads. Beretta got some of the sample ammo and the pressure as off the chart. The Army later admitted this and all the slides that cracked used this overpressure ammo. There was a fairly large settlement paid out to Beretta after the lawsuit.

[willie]

B92 slide deficiency issue rumors should have died out before some here were born. The internet raises them from the dead. I don't deny that some slides did break early in the game. Between Beretta and the military, I think that the 92FS model is the most systematically studied handgun in the world. They work.

[TCinVA]

I don't doubt that the military breaks a lot of M9 slides seeing as how they seem to hardly ever conduct necessary maintenance on the pistols. If you never replace a pistol's recoil spring, do not properly fit locking blocks when/if the locking block currently in the gun breaks, or build guns out of parts from broken guns then yeah...you're gonna break some shit.


https://youtu.be/S-mtgYhNl58

...and this is hardly the only source. Todd talked quite a bit about this in previous threads. EL has as well.

Lots of people from the military who talk about the M9 don't really know what they are talking about. I have no doubt they saw a bunch of shitty M9 pistols, but they have no idea *why* those guns broke and didn't work properly. Remember that properly lubricating their long guns is a relatively recent innovation across big military.

And they also don't know what it will look like when you subject some of the MHS entrants into the exact same lack of proper maintenance. Ask some of the experienced police guys around here how well Glocks work with the same sort of abject neglect and abuse.

Good example is a local PD to me where a friend retired. In his entire decade plus at that department his issued weapon never saw ANY armorer level maintenance. No new mag springs, no new recoil springs, nothing. Many of the officers in his department performed no basic maintenance on their sidearms...and at every qual the department's weapons experienced numerous malfunctions. Because even Glocks need to be lubricated and have a spring changed occasionally.

[TiroFijo]

Not that I ever heard. I do know that the first batches of M882 ammo that the Army procured was basically all proof loads. Beretta got some of the sample ammo and the pressure as off the chart. The Army later admitted this and all the slides that cracked used this overpressure ammo. There was a fairly large settlement paid out to Beretta after the lawsuit.

Thanks!

Was this the old M882 with light (112-115 gr) bullets? I assume it was a loading error confined to early lots.

Nowadays M882 ammo is pretty pedestrian, pressure wise.

"NATO spec" 9 mm pressure has huge variation: According to STANAG 4090, the test barrel is 7.85", the muzzle energy must be between 400 and 600 ft·lbf, and bullet weight between 108 and 128 gr.

This means that a humble SAAMI spec 115 gr 9 mm load that has about 1130 fps in a 4" barrel, but probably does about 1270 fps in a 7.85" barrel (with 412 ft-lbs) meets the NATO spec.

[45dotACP]

That's what a SME AD Marine over on Arfcom says.

To paraphrase my mechanic..."I think I see what the problem is here."

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[HCM]

...se the bad metallurgy is true or not???

Well, Beretta began making 92 series guns in the mid 1970s. The 92 series were them extensively tested by the U.S. military from 1979 through 1985. There were no cracking issues till 1987-1988. Then no subsequent cracking issues for the next 30 years.

It was either a bad batch of steel, a bad batch of ammo or both.

Regardless, it was an anomaly.

[HCM]

I don't doubt that the military breaks a lot of M9 slides seeing as how they seem to hardly ever conduct necessary maintenance on the pistols. If you never replace a pistol's recoil spring, do not properly fit locking blocks when/if the locking block currently in the gun breaks, or build guns out of parts from broken guns then yeah...you're gonna break some shit.


https://youtu.be/S-mtgYhNl58

...and this is hardly the only source. Todd talked quite a bit about this in previous threads. EL has as well.

Lots of people from the military who talk about the M9 don't really know what they are talking about. I have no doubt they saw a bunch of shitty M9 pistols, but they have no idea *why* those guns broke and didn't work properly. Remember that properly lubricating their long guns is a relatively recent innovation across big military.

And they also don't know what it will look like when you subject some of the MHS entrants into the exact same lack of proper maintenance. Ask some of the experienced police guys around here how well Glocks work with the same sort of abject neglect and abuse.

Good example is a local PD to me where a friend retired. In his entire decade plus at that department his issued weapon never saw ANY armorer level maintenance. No new mag springs, no new recoil springs, nothing. Many of the officers in his department performed no basic maintenance on their sidearms...and at every qual the department's weapons experienced numerous malfunctions. Because even Glocks need to be lubricated and have a spring changed occasionally.

They break lots of parts, especially locking blocks, due to lack of PMCS but slides not so much.

[03RN]

Thanks for all the info guys. I was familiar with all the old rumors, breakages, etc. The reason I posted was because this was a current claim that breakages were common and round count did not matter. Apparently, brand new guns are breaking.

Unfortunately he states there is nothing to post to explain, or get into it more which I find disappointing.

[Inkwell 41]

Unfortunately he states there is nothing to post to explain, or get into it more which I find disappointing.

Which is exactly why I come here for information and go to ARFcom for "entertainment". There is not much that is useful over there.

[HCM]

Thanks for all the info guys. I was familiar with all the old rumors, breakages, etc. The reason I posted was because this was a current claim that breakages were common and round count did not matter. Apparently, brand new guns are breaking.

Unfortunately he states there is nothing to post to explain, or get into it more which I find disappointing.

Sounds like BS. As noted lack of preventive maintenance is a big issue. When preventive maintenance is performed, the new parts are often from third party vendors and not made to spec. The third party locking blocks the Military has been buying tend to break at random intervals and at best only survive a fraction of the round count OEM parts do. Finally, many DOD ranges now require lead free frangible ammunition which accelerates wear.

I have heard of newly installed locking blocks from third party vendors breaking when new but not Beretta slides.

[ragnar_d]

One anecdotal/sample of one data point to add here. In college, I was RO/VP/Pres for our school gun club. In our inventory was a Beretta 92 Centurion that was, to the best of my research, 1989-1990 vintage. The gun was retired in 2008 when the club was shut down by a rather risk averse school administration. The gun saw about 2000-3000 rounds per year to the best of my guesstimation (we hosted 3-4 campus-wide shoots per year, 1-2 ROTC shoots, 3-4 small/private events, and 2-3 RO training events) and burned through 15,000 rounds of 9mm per year through 4-5 9mm handguns.

The gun still had the original slide, the only things ever replaced on the gun were springs and locking blocks. Ammunition was a mix of powder puff reloads and factory (Remington UMC mostly during my tenure) 115gr ball.

[AMC]

By way of illustrating LE agency level maintenance: I've had my 226R .40 for about 9 years...the gun has only about 16,000 rounds through it, which puts it the top 1% for round count in my agency. Realistically, most cop guns are shot only at mandatory quals, which in our case is twice a year. With our little pre-qual warm up and 36 round qual, that translates to less than 150 rounds a year for the overwhelming majority of guns. Stretch that out to a 30 year career, and throw in some intermittent practice, and you're talking about maybe 5000 or just over for career round counts...enough to justify replacing the recoil spring. If you shoot more, it's up to you to keep track of round counts and request maintenance.

Back to the subject at hand...I shot a 92G for four years after my probationary year with a revolver....put roughly 22,000 rounds through it in that time and never replaced anything (I know...I was part of the problem). The 96G's we adopted a few years later did experience problems. Split cases, expanded Chambers, keyholing ammo.....all ignored until the guns started to go boom. Think we replaced 400 barrels and slides due to Chambers expanding into the breach face and locking the guns up....and had seven guns pop eventually. Even then they were hesitant to act, until a few of us said we were going to OSHA with a complaint. So 92's? Pretty damn durable. 96's? In my experience, not so much.

[Sensei]

Thanks for all the info guys. I was familiar with all the old rumors, breakages, etc. The reason I posted was because this was a current claim that breakages were common and round count did not matter. Apparently, brand new guns are breaking.

Unfortunately he states there is nothing to post to explain, or get into it more which I find disappointing.

Could you PM me the thread link? I checked the Beretta subforum on AR15.com and see your thread on the M9A3. However, I can’t see anything about broken slides. Thanks.

[azerious]

Could you PM me the thread link? I checked the Beretta subforum on AR15.com and see your thread on the M9A3. However, I can’t see anything about broken slides. Thanks.

It was in GD under "Govt missed mark with M9A3" type of title

Hilarity as usual lol

[Cory]

This was a rumor along time ago, with a hint of truth somewhere buried deep.

But current Beretta 92s? I find that a little hard to believe, when a replacement Beretta part that isn't even stock on any pistols breaks a whopping 3 times, and suddenly the entire internet is aware of it. The shooting public for whatever reason are primed to hate Beretta because it seems to be fun for them.

If it was a major parts breakage, on a more established pistol, and was "regular thing" I'm pretty sure we would all know about it by now.

-Cory

[Drang]

Beretta slides breaking are common?
That's what a SME AD Marine over on Arfcom says. He's been a wealth of information in the past, I'd just like some more info from some different sources.


No, not common at all these days. There was an issue many years ago, probably around the time they figured out that the M16 needed lube. :)


Hmmm, that's not what is being passed on.

Ignoring the issues with going to Arfcom GD for answers...
There were reports early on about M9s. Beretta fixed it. HCM and LangdonTactical covered it.
IIRC, I was in an aviation unit at the time, the M9 was my issued weapon, and the only place I heard about it was in a series of Hackworth's email blasts. (Before he went totally off the rails...)

People still bitch about M16s being poodle shooters, and 1911s being unreliable and Glock 40s going "ka-boom!"

30 years from now people will still be making bad jokes about P320s not being drop safe.

[nightstalker865]

Can someone please explain to me what qualifies as an SME over on that forum?

I’m almost scared to hear the answer, but I want to ask it anyways....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jondoe297]

Good example is a local PD to me where a friend retired. In his entire decade plus at that department his issued weapon never saw ANY armorer level maintenance. No new mag springs, no new recoil springs, nothing. Many of the officers in his department performed no basic maintenance on their sidearms...and at every qual the department's weapons experienced numerous malfunctions. Because even Glocks need to be lubricated and have a spring changed occasionally.

Sadly, you pretty much described my current agency.

[Bigghoss]

Been a civilian security guard for the Department of the Army for 12 years carrying clapped out hand-me-down M9's. On the range I can recall one locking block failure, maybe a couple others that were the gun and not the shooter, but never seen or heard of one of our slides breaking. I've heard one story on a forum where a private individual had his personal 92 crack a slide but I can't recall when he said that was.

I did a lot of internet searching after picking up a 92F earlier this year which lacks a feature that would prevent the back of the slide from flying off at the shooter should the slide fail. Slides failing is a non-issue.

[warpedcamshaft]

The "SMG" ammo was out-of-spec near proof load cartridges produced by Winchester-Olin when they tried to militarize their 9mm load.

3rd party manufactures were used for locking blocks:

8:16 from Chris Bartocci:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1AZyH8DutQ

[HCM]

The "SMG" ammo was out-of-spec near proof load cartridges produced by Winchester-Olin when they tried to militarize their 9mm load.

3rd party manufactures were used for locking blocks:

8:16 from Chris Bartocci:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1AZyH8DutQ

Just FYI M9 locking blocks are not the only sub par 3rd party gun parts purchased by the GOV.

Many complaints about other weapons like SAWs can be traced to a contract for replacement parts going to Bobs bait and tackle in Arkansas because Bob’s is actually an LLC controlled on paper by by a female, Eskimo, veteran who is married to Bob’s cousin.

[LangdonTactical]

Just FYI M9 locking blocks are not the only sub par 3rd party gun parts purchased by the GOV.

Many complaints about other weapons like SAWs can be traced to a contract for replacement parts going to Bobs bait and tackle in Arkansas because Bob’s is actually an LLC controlled on paper by by a female, Eskimo, veteran who is married to Bob’s cousin.

This is very true, and on top of that, the parts often get replaced any time they go back to depot maintenance. I remember sending off a batch of guns to depot running fine with no issues. Get them back and they would not make it 3,000 rounds without breaking a locking block.

[GJM]

Just FYI M9 locking blocks are not the only sub par 3rd party gun parts purchased by the GOV.

Many complaints about other weapons like SAWs can be traced to a contract for replacement parts going to Bobs bait and tackle in Arkansas because Bob’s is actually an LLC controlled on paper by by a female, Eskimo, veteran who is married to Bob’s cousin.

A native corp recently got the Air Force contract to tow gliders for the AF Academy. Heard it didn’t go so well in year one.

[Drang]

This is very true, and on top of that, the parts often get replaced any time they go back to depot maintenance. I remember sending off a batch of guns to depot running fine with no issues. Get them back and they would not make it 3,000 rounds without breaking a locking block.
"The Book says when the guns come to Third Shop we..."

[lwt16]

I've owned a lot of Beretta 92s over the years and carried both the .40 caliber 96 as well as the 92FS INOX as issued duty weapons.

As far as breakage, I did see one 92 FS INOX slide crack at my current agency. The pistol was issued to one of my academy classmates and I am quite sure that the round count was low.

Personally, I broke a firing pin on mine during an active shooter class where we zip tied the barrels (slightly out of battery) and did a lot of dry fire. I didn't realize I was carrying an inoperable duty pistol until a couple of weeks later when I went to the local range to get in my practice session.

Other breakages were extractor related but I'm going to assign the blame to officers that loaded the chamber by dropping a round in and then dropping the slide instead of stripping one from the magazine and then topping the magazine off. The department replaced all the extractors as a precaution.

Other than those issues, we had good luck with the 92 platform. My biggest gripe was the safety engaging on overhand slide racks as well as somehow, I would bump mine against something while it rode in my duty holster and the safety would somehow engage. I developed a habit of checking that safety constantly during a shift to make sure it was in the "fire" position.

If they were to issue me another one today I wouldn't feel undergunned with it. I'd prefer a model that was decocker only that couldn't be placed in safe for the aforementioned overhand slide rack issue.

Regards.

[JSGlock34]

Sounds like BS. As noted lack of preventive maintenance is a big issue. When preventive maintenance is performed, the new parts are often from third party vendors and not made to spec. The third party locking blocks the Military has been buying tend to break at random intervals and at best only survive a fraction of the round count OEM parts do. Finally, many DOD ranges now require lead free frangible ammunition which accelerates wear.

I have heard of newly installed locking blocks from third party vendors breaking when new but not Beretta slides.

Anyone have any idea on the extent of 3rd party replacement parts used by the military? I can think of the locking blocks, FN manufactured barrels, Checkmate magazines...what else?

[DAB]

Uncle Sam pays about $180 for a M9. let's say it actually shoots 20000 rounds over it's lifetime. at the deep discount rate of 10 cents a round, that's $2,000 in ammo. so now the taxpayer is into this for about $2200, most of which is ammo costs, and they want to save a few pennies on 3rd party parts that don't work? good grief. i'll bet Beretta will give .gov a good deal on bulk magazine buys. they wear out, get another that works.

[HCM]

Anyone have any idea on the extent of 3rd party replacement parts used by the military? I can think of the locking blocks, FN manufactured barrels, Checkmate magazines...what else?

I've heard of parts and springs for SAWs and other machineguns such as M60s and M240 machineguns.

The now defunct Sabre Defense started out as a 3rd party supplier of MG and M16 barrels. Not all 3rd party suppliers are junk, for example LMT supplies parts and barrels for many U.S. Military weapons, but many are supplied by companies with no firearms of defense experience. Auto parts manufacturers etc.

[Bigghoss]

Uncle Sam pays about $180 for a M9. let's say it actually shoots 20000 rounds over it's lifetime. at the deep discount rate of 10 cents a round, that's $2,000 in ammo. so now the taxpayer is into this for about $2200, most of which is ammo costs, and they want to save a few pennies on 3rd party parts that don't work? good grief. i'll bet Beretta will give .gov a good deal on bulk magazine buys. they wear out, get another that works.

You need to multiply those figures by every single gun in the arsenal. It adds up. To gun people it makes sense to buy good parts from reliable sources. As far as the person placing the orders knows, everything is equal and the only thing that matters is the final cost.

[DAB]

to be fair, Checkmate told .gov "you don't want parkerized magazines", but .gov insisted. ok, here you go. and their name gets beat to hell because of some stupid .gov paper pusher.

[03RN]

It's more the claim of broken slides right out of the bag that concerns me. He claims they're still using gen 1 locking blocks and it makes no difference on slide life.

It's not something I've seen or heard of. Which is why I posted here. My 92fs was made in 05. I've had it for 3 years now and put 10k rounds through it so it's not like I'm losing sleep over it.
Just collating data as they say

[JSGlock34]

to be fair, Checkmate told .gov "you don't want parkerized magazines", but .gov insisted. ok, here you go. and their name gets beat to hell because of some stupid .gov paper pusher.

I found Checkmate magazine springs lost their strength quickly, finish notwithstanding.

[Bucky]

to be fair, Checkmate told .gov "you don't want parkerized magazines", but .gov insisted. ok, here you go. and their name gets beat to hell because of some stupid .gov paper pusher.

Yeah, but weren’t the magazine springs on the weak side as well?

[Willard]

He claims they're still using gen 1 locking blocks. Mr. Langdon posted in another thread that the Army forced Beretta to go back to the original TTP for the 1985 locking block

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26789-Special-Run-Beretta-M9-Project&p=624820&highlight=army#post624820

[HCM]

It's more the claim of broken slides right out of the bag that concerns me. He claims they're still using gen 1 locking blocks and it makes no difference on slide life.

It's not something I've seen or heard of. Which is why I posted here. My 92fs was made in 05. I've had it for 3 years now and put 10k rounds through it so it's not like I'm losing sleep over it.
Just collating data as they say

The TDP for the M9 requires the original style locking block. My understanding is Beretta asked the army to change to the latest locking block but the Army (who runs the program) declined.

The M9A1, which the Marines bought COTS has the current gen 3 locking block.

[revchuck38]

Uncle Sam pays about $180 for a M9. let's say it actually shoots 20000 rounds over it's lifetime. at the deep discount rate of 10 cents a round, that's $2,000 in ammo. so now the taxpayer is into this for about $2200, most of which is ammo costs, and they want to save a few pennies on 3rd party parts that don't work? good grief. i'll bet Beretta will give .gov a good deal on bulk magazine buys. they wear out, get another that works.


You need to multiply those figures by every single gun in the arsenal. It adds up. To gun people it makes sense to buy good parts from reliable sources. As far as the person placing the orders knows, everything is equal and the only thing that matters is the final cost.

But somewhere in the depths of Big Army there's a field-grade officer who was able to put a bullet on his/her OER Support Form that he/she reduced depot-level maintence costs by a gazillion bucks over the last year. :rolleyes:


I found Checkmate magazine springs lost their strength quickly, finish notwithstanding.

When I was in Afghanistan, my three issued M9 mags had Wolff extra-power mag springs in them. :)

[Jeep]

I'm convinced that I could get the slide of an M9 to break. Never lube it; never change the recoil spring; shoot it until that Gen. 1 locking block breaks and the pistol has to be hammered apart, and speaking of hammers, use it as a field expedient hammer every chance you get.

But the truth is that back in the day our M1911A1's cracked their slides on a not totally infrequent basis for similar reasons.

Troops can break just about anything if they put their minds to it.

As for brand-new M9's having broken slides, anything is possible and there will always be some lemons, but it were a big problem we would have heard about it here (on PF.com) long ago.

[hufnagel]

I'm convinced that I could get the slide of an M9 to break. Never lube it; never change the recoil spring; shoot it until that Gen. 1 locking block breaks and the pistol has to be hammered apart, and speaking of hammers, use it as a field expedient hammer every chance you get.

But the truth is that back in the day our M1911A1's cracked their slides on a not totally infrequent basis for similar reasons.

Troops can break just about anything if they put their minds to it.

As for brand-new M9's having broken slides, anything is possible and there will always be some lemons, but it were a big problem we would have heard about it here (on PF.com) long ago.

especially marines. :D

[MistWolf]

Every time I find myself on ARF, I feel like I've wandered into a Steven King novel about clowns

[TCinVA]

I'm convinced that I could get the slide of an M9 to break.

Out there somewhere is a picture of me holding a range rental 92FS with the rear-half of the slide on the gun and nothing else. Front half snapped off completely and went downrange.

Of course, it was a rental gun and to the best of my knowledge it never had any real maintenance in its hard life.

So you can definitely break a slide, but you have to do stupid things to achieve that.

[Cory]

Out there somewhere is a picture of me holding a range rental 92FS with the rear-half of the slide on the gun and nothing else. Front half snapped off completely and went downrange.

Of course, it was a rental gun and to the best of my knowledge it never had any real maintenance in its hard life.

So you can definitely break a slide, but you have to do stupid things to achieve that.

I've read a ton of your posts while reading the forums. Welcome back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDKH2AwpjIg

-Cory

[Sal Picante]

I've never seen a broken slide on a 92... In fact TCinVA is the first person who might actually lay claim to seeing one...

I've lost count on my round counts, mainly because I get it confused/forget/etc. On a few guns I'm def. over the 100k mark. They still seem to be alright...

I'll add: I've seen 3 GLOCK slide breakages in the past 2 seasons alone on moderate (25K +) use guns.
That said, after 25,000 rounds of shooting you've probably gotten a pretty good deal...

I guess my view is these are all mechanical objects and they will wear out eventually... Take care of them as best as you can.

[TCinVA]

I've never seen a broken slide on a 92... In fact TCinVA is the first person who might actually lay claim to seeing one...

22681

[TCinVA]

https://youtu.be/3m5qxZm_JqM

[Jeep]

I've never seen a broken slide on a 92... In fact TCinVA is the first person who might actually lay claim to seeing one...

I've lost count on my round counts, mainly because I get it confused/forget/etc. On a few guns I'm def. over the 100k mark. They still seem to be alright...

I'll add: I've seen 3 GLOCK slide breakages in the past 2 seasons alone on moderate (25K +) use guns.
That said, after 25,000 rounds of shooting you've probably gotten a pretty good deal...

I guess my view is these are all mechanical objects and they will wear out eventually... Take care of them as best as you can.

Some decades back, Walther P38's had a reputation for slides cracking under "hard use"--which back then might be 10,000 rounds. That was attributed to the relative lack of steel in open slides. However, during the same time period, Browning High Powers also had a reputation for breaking slides with "submachine gun ammo." Now there was some hot ammo back then--the Swedes spiced up their 9mm subgun ammo after their peacekeepers had problems in the Congo, and the Italians had been making robust subgun ammo since WWII--but in fact the steel in both pistols was somewhat questionable and they were breaking with normal velocity ammo as well.

Anyway, when slides are routinely cracking, word gets around. If the slides of 92's were routinely cracking we'd know about it.

[OlongJohnson]

Sounds like this may be a multiple-factor failure.

There is an example in the automotive world where serious engine failures were attributable to around a dozen different factors. Any one factor, if severe enough, could cause the problem. You could have several factors in place without an issue, then add one more to get the problem. So it would be attributed to the change. But other people would have that added factor in place without issue for a long time and claim that it couldn't be that, had to be something else. The reality was simply that it was many things each contributing their share. More challengingly, every one of the factors had to be addressed in order to have a system you could be sure would not fail.

It seems likely, after reading this thread, that if there had not been an issue with steel in the slides, the pistols would have soaked up the hot ammo, perhaps with reduced service life. And if the ammo had been loaded to spec, rather than hot, even with the metallurgical problem, the pistols may well have run without failure. It was likely the combination that was necessary to show a problem.

[03RN]

Sounds like this may be a multiple-factor failure.

There is an example in the automotive world where serious engine failures were attributable to around a dozen different factors. Any one factor, if severe enough, could cause the problem. You could have several factors in place without an issue, then add one more to get the problem. So it would be attributed to the change. But other people would have that added factor in place without issue for a long time and claim that it couldn't be that, had to be something else. The reality was simply that it was many things each contributing their share. More challengingly, every one of the factors had to be addressed in order to have a system you could be sure would not fail.

It seems likely, after reading this thread, that if there had not been an issue with steel in the slides, the pistols would have soaked up the hot ammo, perhaps with reduced service life. And if the ammo had been loaded to spec, rather than hot, even with the metallurgical problem, the pistols may well have run without failure. It was likely the combination that was necessary to show a problem.

That's as good as any explanation that I would agree with. I've never been concerned with those broken slides in relation to the current berettas. Current broken m9a1s with no relation to round counts had me concerned.

[Sensei]

22681

Judging by the haircut, that must have been an original 92 “step slide” designs that was produced between ‘76-83. Where is your Def Leppard denim jacket? ;)

Joking aside, I’d love to have known the maintance history on that gun.

[Cory]

That's as good as any explanation that I would agree with. I've never been concerned with those broken slides in relation to the current berettas. Current broken m9a1s with no relation to round counts had me concerned.

Rumor with no supporting evidence doesnt worry me a heck of a lot. Rumor with no supporting evidence from Arfcom even less so. Rumor without evidence from arfcom about a well tested an establishes handgun, not at all. In fact I'm a little suprised this topic is still going. I dont think the 92 series is any more at risk for major parts failure than any other pistol on the market.

-Cory

[03RN]

Rumor with no supporting evidence doesnt worry me a heck of a lot. Rumor with no supporting evidence from Arfcom even less so. Rumor without evidence from arfcom about a well tested an establishes handgun, not at all. In fact I'm a little suprised this topic is still going. I dont think the 92 series is any more at risk for major parts failure than any other pistol on the market.

-Cory

GS5414 is one of the few who produces signal instead noise

[Trooper224]

That's what a SME AD Marine over on Arfcom says. He's been a wealth of information in the past, I'd just like some more info from some different sources.

Being a veteran, I get a bit boggled when people assume service members are arbitrary experts on anything. They may be qualified experts on specific things, but they also like to talk out of their ass more so than any other segment of society. During the late 80's when 92 slide separations were a thing, my work in the USN put me in conjunction with NSW. (no, I'm making no claims to being a pipe hitting, snake eating, door kicking hero, I just happened to be around when some of that hitting, eating and kicking occurred) Being a gun guy even then, I took an interest in the issue. It had never been an issue during the previous decades wherein that slide design had been in service. Not until the US military got it's hands on it. (shocking) The number of breakages were minute compared to the totality of pistols in service worldwide. There were a couple of issues that seemed to relate to it, neither one of which had anything to do with the design. There was a lot of finger pointing between Beretta and the US military machine, but the issues reality wasn't as huge as everyone made out. Currently, the 92 is my EDC and I run the living shit out of my training gun with minimal cleaning. The one I'm currently using in that role just went over 10k rounds in a relatively short amount of time with zero parts breakage or malfunctions. The issue doesn't exist if the weapon is properly maintained and I'd cast suspicion on the total "wealth" of your friends information if he truly thinks this is a thing.

[JonInWA]

I found Checkmate magazine springs lost their strength quickly, finish notwithstanding.

I've been running Check-Mate dry-film magazines for over 10 years, and keep several of them fully loaded for months at a stretch for carry, and then rotate. Mine are used for carry, competition (IDPA), duty, and home defense. I literally have had one operational issue with my 8 original ones; one worked fine through the firing sequence, but would not drop free. Check-Mate found the tube slightly over-sized, re-sent it through the sizing die, and it's been fine ever since. As most of you on the forum know, I'm also one of Check-Mate's sponsored shooters, but I use and recommend the magazines because I trust them, and that's trust that's been earned over time and personal empirical experience.

My OEM springs have been perfect throughout the years and thousands of rounds of use. While magazines and magazine components (especially springs) should be regarded as expendable items, that has not been the case with mine-and they have not been babied in use.

The first question I would have with anyone citing or experiencing ostensibly weak springs in a Check-Mate 92 dry-film magazine would be to see if they were the original and sole owner/user throughout, and then if the magazines had been cleaned as needed, and then if at least standard-pressure ammunition had been used. And then I'd ask if the pistol itself had been properly lubricated, with the recoil spring periodically replaced IAW Beretta's recommendations.

There was a period when some users felt that magazine spring life/performance could be extended or enhanced by removing the magazine from the tube, stretching it, and then stuffing it back in the tube....That was a huge urban myth, and a total operational no-go.

On all of my magazines, my treatment protocol before use (and subsequently, when magazine cleaning is required) is to disassemble the magazine, wipe down the tube interior, spring, inner portion of the baseplate with a dry-film lubricant (I use Dri-Slide), reassemble, and then wipe down the exterior with Weapon Shield as a protective/anticorrosive, leaving a light film.

I also have used and equally trust Beretta/MDS 9s magazines, but I prefer the Check-Mates, based on their value, performance and slightly greater concealibility (due to their flat and slimmer hardened steel baseplate).

While I think the absolute "best" Beretta 92 magazine are probably the Beretta PVD-treated sand magazines (standard with the M9A1 and I believe with the M9A3), with their additional inner tube strakes to preclude sand from inhibiting cartridge movement, I think the Check-Mate ones are a better value, especially cost-wise, and, for most of us, equally performance-wise.

Best, Jon

[JSGlock34]

I respectfully disagree. Having found the Mec-Gar 18 round magazines (in the OEM guise) for $16/each in the past, I see no reason to use either Checkmate or Beretta OEM magazines. The Beretta OEM PVD 15 round magazines are excellent but overpriced, and as I commented previously (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29017-Beretta-92-20-round-Mec-Gars&p=686895&viewfull=1#post686895), I've consistently broken the base pads on Beretta 17 round magazines. The Mec-Gar 18 round Anti-Friction magazines are affordable, reliable, and enjoy higher capacity.

As for Checkmate (CMI) magazines, I posted this review earlier, and I stand by my original comments, copied below...


I originally acquired four (new in wrapper) of the military issue CMI magazines in a trade when I purchased my M9. All were 2005 manufacture with the dry film coating. Obviously considering my less than stellar experience with the plastic floor plate on the Beretta 17 round magazines, the metal floor plate on the CMI magazines is a welcome feature. Unfortunately, these magazines often produce failures to lock back in both the M9 and the Brigadier Tactical. CMI has a lifetime warranty on the magazines and quickly replaced the first two that had developed problems, as well as providing new springs and followers for the other two magazines. The new magazines have not been much of an improvement, and also have occasional failures to lock back on an empty magazine. As such, I've also relegated the CMI magazines to range use only. While I was pleased with CMI's customer service, there are better options.

I've posted this previously and I maintain my recommendation...


My two cents is why spend money on the 15 or 17 round Beretta magazines when the Mec-Gar 18 round magazines are plentiful, similarly priced, and better?

[JonInWA]

to be fair, Checkmate told .gov "you don't want parkerized magazines", but .gov insisted. ok, here you go. and their name gets beat to hell because of some stupid .gov paper pusher.

That's not exactly what happened; the internal and external crackle phosphate finish WAS indeed a contract specification, and they worked well as issued in temperate climates (like in the US and Europe, for example). It was when the magazines were exposed to the exceptionally fine sand/dust particulates in Iraq and Afghanistan that the operational problems were encountered-the crackle finish on the tube inside trapped particles, and made cartridge movement inside the magazine problematic.

When Check-Mate was able to get some of the indigenous sand and figured out the problem (around 2004) and came up with an excellent solution (their dry-film finished tubes, followers and baseplates), the new magazine batches were intermixed with the old phosphate finished ones at the unit level. Check-Mate offered to refinish all the old phosphate-finished ones, but DoD declined, so the perception that Check-Mate 92 magazines were defective has unfortunately been perpetuated. Additionally, I strongly suspect that magazines at the unit level received even less attention maintenance-wise than the M9s themselves, which has been discussed as sub-standard, most notably by Larry Vickers in an excellent article years ago.

The bottom line is that 2005 and later Check-Mate 92 dry-film magazines should be excellent performers in Beretta 92s. The production dates are rollmarked on all Check-Mate 92 magazines, so this ie easy to check; at least up to 2010 the magazine were rollmarked with the year of production on the left side of the tube (e.g. "9MM-CHECK-MATE IND. INC WYANDANCH. N.Y.USA", and on the right side with the month and year of production ("ASSY 9346413-1M291 07/2010"); current production ones have the month and year of production on the right side ("ASSY 9346413-1M291 062015")

In some production lots the polymer followers were also finished with the dry-film, some were not; operational use was not affected without the dry-film finish on the followers in my experience.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I respectfully disagree. Having found the Mec-Gar 18 round magazines (in the OEM guise) for $16/each in the past, I see no reason to use either Checkmate or Beretta OEM magazines. The Beretta OEM PVD 15 round magazines are excellent but overpriced, and as I commented previously (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29017-Beretta-92-20-round-Mec-Gars&p=686895&viewfull=1#post686895), I've consistently broken the base pads on Beretta 17 round magazines. The Mec-Gar 18 round Anti-Friction magazines are affordable, reliable, and enjoy higher capacity.

As for Checkmate (CMI) magazines, I posted this review earlier, and I stand by my original comments, copied below...



I've posted this previously and I maintain my recommendation...

The only failure that I've ever experienced with Check-Mate magazines was a single instance with Federal Champion ammunition (the brass-cased); a subsequent discussion with a Federal Tech Rep resulted me discovering that the 115 gr 9mm Champion is more lightly loaded that their American Eagle (and that the Champion brass-cased and aluminum-cased are equally {lightly} loaded); which was what they recommended to me for match use (the American Eagle).

What cartridges were you using when you encountered your failures with the slide locking back?

Best, Jon

[JSGlock34]

The only failure that I've ever experienced with Check-Mate magazines was a single instance with Federal Champion ammunition (the brass-cased); a subsequent discussion with a Federal Tech Rep resulted me discovering that the 115 gr 9mm Champion is more lightly loaded that their American Eagle (and that the Champion brass-cased and aluminum-cased are equally {lightly} loaded); which was what they recommended to me for match use (the American Eagle).

What cartridges were you using when you encountered your failures with the slide locking back?

Best, Jon

Honestly, I'm not sure which ammunition I was using - I posted that review well over two years ago. I was sitting on a mountain of 124 grain Blazer Brass (not my favorite cartridge but cheap enough at the time) back then, so if I had to guess it was the Blazer. I have some contemporaneous posts about my use of the Blazer Brass in the Brigadier Tactical at the time, while also testing different trigger spring weights, so it's a good bet. But in any case, I didn't experience any issues with that ammo with the Mec-Gars or Beretta magazines (the issue with the Beretta OEM magazines was the durability of the floor plate, not failure to lock the slide back, though I eventually experienced the latter with one older 15 round Beretta OEM magazine).

I haven't found much of a cost-savings over the Mec-Gar magazines regardless of make. I own nine Mec-Gar magazines, and six Beretta 15 round magazines (standard and PVD coated). I've seen the Mec-Gar magazines dip as low as $14.99 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13248-Beretta-92-Magazines/page5&p=357864#post357864). I sold my CMI and 17 round Beretta magazines a long time ago as I had lost confidence in them.

The Mec-Gar magazines remain my magazine of choice. Affordable, reliable, high capacity...not to mention the nice taper...


Here they are as attachments in vB on PF (I hope you don't mind):

3881

3879

3880

3882

3883

[03RN]

Being a veteran, I get a bit boggled when people assume service members are arbitrary experts on anything.

Being a veteran I normally listen when an AD CWO-5 vouches for someone.

[Cory]

Yeah, yeah, we're all veterans. Go us.

The point is this is all statements with nothing to back them up, when there is plenty to prove that slide breakage is NOT common. Plenty of guns in circulation, and we have one example of a gun with high round count and no maintaince breaking. We also can find plenty of examples of high round count 92s that arent breaking. So to claim this is common strikes me as a falsehood.

-Cory

[Sensei]

Being a veteran I normally listen when an AD CWO-5 vouches for someone.

There is nothing wrong with respecting someone’s credentials...to a point. Now that we’ve beaten this horse into the ground, there is a choice to be made. You can believe the lone internet ranger or the collective experience of millions of issued guns across the globe (over 600,000 to DOD alone) and decades of service. This should not be a hard decision.

[Trooper224]

Being a veteran I normally listen when an AD CWO-5 vouches for someone.

I've known E-1s who were squared away and flag officers who couldn't find their ass with both hands on their best day. Apparently, you and I judge competency by different metrics.

[03RN]

Yeah, yeah, we're all veterans. Go us.

The point is this is all statements with nothing to back them up, when there is plenty to prove that slide breakage is NOT common. Plenty of guns in circulation, and we have one example of a gun with high round count and no maintaince breaking. We also can find plenty of examples of high round count 92s that arent breaking. So to claim this is common strikes me as a falsehood.

-Cory

Which is why I posted the question in the first place. I wanted to know if there was any new information. We can all get stagnant.

I wasn't taking any claim as gospel. Just a point to investigate.

Gunner Wade vouches for the guy, maybe he's not competent to some but I respect the man's opinion but never to a point I'll blindly follow. "Trust, but verify".

I still carried a beretta while verifying. Put 350 rounds through one yesterday, then placed it next to my bed at night. If people didn't try to verify claims the 320 situation would never have been remedied. Hell, Bruce Gray came out and said without a shadow of a doubt that the 320 is drop safe. When new claims are made I'm not going to blindly follow the concensus without some digging.

Considering I found this after a little digging I think this thread can be closed up if that what everyone wants.

https://youtu.be/RkreDwwgLeE

[JonInWA]

Honestly, I'm not sure which ammunition I was using - I posted that review well over two years ago. I was sitting on a mountain of 124 grain Blazer Brass (not my favorite cartridge but cheap enough at the time) back then, so if I had to guess it was the Blazer. I have some contemporaneous posts about my use of the Blazer Brass in the Brigadier Tactical at the time, while also testing different trigger spring weights, so it's a good bet. But in any case, I didn't experience any issues with that ammo with the Mec-Gars or Beretta magazines (the issue with the Beretta OEM magazines was the durability of the floor plate, not failure to lock the slide back, though I eventually experienced the latter with one older 15 round Beretta OEM magazine).

I haven't found much of a cost-savings over the Mec-Gar magazines regardless of make. I own nine Mec-Gar magazines, and six Beretta 15 round magazines (standard and PVD coated). I've seen the Mec-Gar magazines dip as low as $14.99 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13248-Beretta-92-Magazines/page5&p=357864#post357864). I sold my CMI and 17 round Beretta magazines a long time ago as I had lost confidence in them.

The Mec-Gar magazines remain my magazine of choice. Affordable, reliable, high capacity...not to mention the nice taper...

I've also heard good things about the Mec-Gar 92 magazines; from you and others I respect, on this forum and elsewhere. While I've never used their 92 magazines, other Mec-Gars have been excellent (except for the follower they use on their proprietary after-market magazine for the Hi Power, but their FN contract magazines/followers are excellent). Their basepad appears to be pretty humongous though. The taper looks both effective and interesting, but I've never had any issues with reloads with both Check-Mate and/or Beretta/MDS magazines (Conversely, Hi Power reloads are notoriously difficulty-fraught, given the square magazine front, limited taper, and square unbeveled receiver magazine well).

Best, Jon

[JSGlock34]

I've also heard good things about the Mec-Gar 92 magazines; from you and others I respect, on this forum and elsewhere. While I've never used their 92 magazines, other Mec-Gars have been excellent (except for the follower they use on their proprietary after-market magazine for the Hi Power, but their FN contract magazines/followers are excellent). Their basepad appears to be pretty humongous though. The taper looks both effective and interesting, but I've never had any issues with reloads with both Check-Mate and/or Beretta/MDS magazines (Conversely, Hi Power reloads are notoriously difficulty-fraught, given the square magazine front, limited taper, and square unbeveled receiver magazine well).

Best, Jon

I certainly wouldn't extend my endorsement of Mec-Gar's 18 round Beretta magazines to cover any of the other magazines they make. I simply don't have the first hand experience. Mec-Gar makes so many magazines for so many different firearms, and I'm sure some work better than others. For example, you mentioned the Mec-Gar for the Browning Hi-Power; I also don't like the compromises to the follower Mec-Gar made to expand the capacity to 15 rounds, and wouldn't recommend that particular magazine.

Generally, I recommend folks stick with OEM pistol magazines whenever possible. I wrote my original review of the Beretta magazines because I looked down one day and realized I had accumulated six different magazines for the 92, and they were not performing equally. That was quite different from my extensive Glock experience; I had only purchased Glock OEM magazines, and aside from some minor generational evolutions, they all performed identically. My experience with Beretta 92 magazines is quite unusual in that I concluded that the aftermarket magazine solution is actually superior.

[Jeep]

I've known E-1s who were squared away and flag officers who couldn't find their ass with both hands on their best day.

Yes, but usually such a flag/general officer will be a wizard at Beltway cocktail parties and is on a first-name basis with important politicians so it isn't like they can't do anything right.

However, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to take any advice from those flag officers on small arms. Hors d'oeuvres? Sure. But not M9's.

[Trooper224]

I certainly wouldn't extend my endorsement of Mec-Gar's 18 round Beretta magazines to cover any of the other magazines they make. I simply don't have the first hand experience. Mec-Gar makes so many magazines for so many different firearms, and I'm sure some work better than others. For example, you mentioned the Mec-Gar for the Browning Hi-Power; I also don't like the compromises to the follower Mec-Gar made to expand the capacity to 15 rounds, and wouldn't recommend that particular magazine.

Generally, I recommend folks stick with OEM pistol magazines whenever possible. I wrote my original review of the Beretta magazines because I looked down one day and realized I had accumulated six different magazines for the 92, and they were not performing equally. That was quite different from my extensive Glock experience; I had only purchased Glock OEM magazines, and aside from some minor generational evolutions, they all performed identically. My experience with Beretta 92 magazines is quite unusual in that I concluded that the aftermarket magazine solution is actually superior.

I really wanted to like the Checkmate 92 magazine, as I found their 1911 magazines to be rock solid. Unfortunately, I bought four of them and none of them would lock the slide back on empty. I replaced the springs and they've functioned fine since, but any cost savings was eliminated by the cost of the new spring. So I gave up on CMI. I have around twenty of the Mec-Gar 18 rounders, as well as a few 20 and they've all been outstanding. A friend gave me a couple of Airtronics mags he'd received from his nephew in the Army, now talk about junk...........

[Trooper224]

I certainly wouldn't extend my endorsement of Mec-Gar's 18 round Beretta magazines to cover any of the other magazines they make. I simply don't have the first hand experience. Mec-Gar makes so many magazines for so many different firearms, and I'm sure some work better than others. For example, you mentioned the Mec-Gar for the Browning Hi-Power; I also don't like the compromises to the follower Mec-Gar made to expand the capacity to 15 rounds, and wouldn't recommend that particular magazine.

Generally, I recommend folks stick with OEM pistol magazines whenever possible. I wrote my original review of the Beretta magazines because I looked down one day and realized I had accumulated six different magazines for the 92, and they were not performing equally. That was quite different from my extensive Glock experience; I had only purchased Glock OEM magazines, and aside from some minor generational evolutions, they all performed identically. My experience with Beretta 92 magazines is quite unusual in that I concluded that the aftermarket magazine solution is actually superior.

I really wanted to like the Checkmate 92 magazine, as I found their 1911 magazines to be rock solid. Unfortunately, I bought four of them and none of them would lock the slide back on empty. I replaced the springs and they've functioned fine since, but any cost savings was eliminated by the cost of the new spring. So I gave up on CMI. I have around twenty of the Mec-Gar 18 rounders, as well as a few 20s and they've all been outstanding. A friend gave me a couple of Airtronics mags he'd received from his nephew in the Army, now talk about junk...........

[MichaelOrick]

I was serving in the USAF when the slides broke. Our were tagged and pulled from service at varying round counts as info came down. Ended up at 1K before that was stopped.

As I remember it... 4 broke w the USN, 2 w the USA, and 12 in testing. Round counts were from just under 5K to just over 30K. All were made in Italy.

Early Win ammo had some problems. The pressure was sometimes measured at the case mouth, other times mid-case. Oops.

Slide failures ceased for a long time. IIRC there were 4 more, a couple broke at LAFB, TX w USMC doing LE training there, a couple at Ft Benning.

I worked w a guy who was in the JSSAP in the 70s/80s that resulted in the M9 trials and selection. The pistols were tested to 7K rounds and only had to make it to 5K to pass. All the Berettas passed and made it to 7K. All the SIGs made it to 5K, all cracked frames by 7K. The frame was the only part w a contract specified servce life, and it was for 5K. Never a problem w that. At the time, 5K was good for 40 yrs at "normal usage rates".

The local base never broke a slide, never broke a block under 15K the 30 yrs they used them. They just got some M17/18s.

FWIW, I was issued the M15 (38 revolver), M1911A1, M9 and M11. The 1911s were match guns, and mine was a Remington. I remember having fewer problems with the M9/11 than that 1911, but most of the parts on them were older than I was by the time I got it. More problems w the M15s than any of the semis.

I've cut way back on guns lately. I've kept a GP100, SA 1911, Moss SG. Will pick up a B92 soon.

[JonInWA]

I found Checkmate magazine springs lost their strength quickly, finish notwithstanding.

After 12 years of continual use on several of their magazines, and 10+ years on others with no issues, I'm strongly suspecting this is another internet urban myth-or said magazines had their springs physically stretched by some ignorant enterprising souls who's "heard" that that was a good technique to do...compounded on top a likely lack of organizational and/or individual maintenance of their Berettas in general...

Not saying it totally didn't happen, but unless I hear that it happened to specific individuals who owned or had total control and/or possession of their M9 Check-Mate magazines, I'm VERY suspect of the veracity of this.

Best, Jon

[Sammy1]

Different people have different experiences and they are often under specific circumstances. I ran a S&W 1911 E series in USPSA. The OEM mags worked great when I practiced at my local gun range before I actually started shooting it in USPSA. I put allot of rounds through that gun with those mags and not a single issue but that changed when I took it to matches. When I started dropping the mags in the sand during a stage and then reloaded for the next stage, the gun started choking. I ended up going to Chip McCormick 1911 mags and no more issues. My first experience with S&W OEM mags was very different then using them in matches.

[JSGlock34]

After 12 years of continual use on several of their magazines, and 10+ years on others with no issues, I'm strongly suspecting this is another internet urban myth-or said magazines had their springs physically stretched by some ignorant enterprising souls who's "heard" that that was a good technique to do...compounded on top a likely lack of organizational and/or individual maintenance of their Berettas in general...

Not saying it totally didn't happen, but unless I hear that it happened to specific individuals who owned or had total control and/or possession of their M9 Check-Mate magazines, I'm VERY suspect of the veracity of this.

Best, Jon

Seems like you and I have covered this ground before, and earlier in this very necro-thread, so I'm not sure why we're revisiting this. I documented my personal experience with the Checkmate magazines several times, and I am not repeating any "internet urban myth". I understand you have a relationship with Checkmate and have had good experience with their magazines. I did not. I standby my previous comments. I see no reason to choose a Checkmate magazine over the Mec-Gar AFC, or Beretta OEM for that matter. There is a reason that there are Beretta branded 18 round Mec-Gar magazines on the way.


I respectfully disagree. Having found the Mec-Gar 18 round magazines (in the OEM guise) for $16/each in the past, I see no reason to use either Checkmate or Beretta OEM magazines. The Beretta OEM PVD 15 round magazines are excellent but overpriced, and as I commented previously (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29017-Beretta-92-20-round-Mec-Gars&p=686895&viewfull=1#post686895), I've consistently broken the base pads on Beretta 17 round magazines. The Mec-Gar 18 round Anti-Friction magazines are affordable, reliable, and enjoy higher capacity.

As for Checkmate (CMI) magazines, I posted this review earlier, and I stand by my original comments, copied below...


I originally acquired four (new in wrapper) of the military issue CMI magazines in a trade when I purchased my M9. All were 2005 manufacture with the dry film coating. Obviously considering my less than stellar experience with the plastic floor plate on the Beretta 17 round magazines, the metal floor plate on the CMI magazines is a welcome feature. Unfortunately, these magazines often produce failures to lock back in both the M9 and the Brigadier Tactical. CMI has a lifetime warranty on the magazines and quickly replaced the first two that had developed problems, as well as providing new springs and followers for the other two magazines. The new magazines have not been much of an improvement, and also have occasional failures to lock back on an empty magazine. As such, I've also relegated the CMI magazines to range use only. While I was pleased with CMI's customer service, there are better options.


I've posted this previously and I maintain my recommendation...

Seems like a lot of "internet urban myth" going around...


I really wanted to like the Checkmate 92 magazine, as I found their 1911 magazines to be rock solid. Unfortunately, I bought four of them and none of them would lock the slide back on empty. I replaced the springs and they've functioned fine since, but any cost savings was eliminated by the cost of the new spring. So I gave up on CMI. I have around twenty of the Mec-Gar 18 rounders, as well as a few 20s and they've all been outstanding. A friend gave me a couple of Airtronics mags he'd received from his nephew in the Army, now talk about junk...........

[TCinVA]

Nevermind, I just realized this is an old thread and I said exactly the same thing again. I'm getting senile in my old age.

[JonInWA]

Yeah, this one's been pretty flogged. Thanks for your comments, JS Glock34; when I posted earlier this morning, I didn't initially realize that it was an old thread that I/we had previously contributed on.

However, another point of interest is that in his evaluation and critique of Beretta 92 magazines, Ernest Langdon's comparative criticism of them had to do with their floorplates being susceptible to bending at the front, and potentially having the folded edges used to fit on the tube flange rail becoming deformed (personally of which while I can acknowledge the possibilities of, but haven't ever experienced)-not the springs; he mentioned nothing about spring issues with them.

And while I have a long-standing association with Check-Mate, I'm pretty brutally objective and forthright about what I encounter with them or any other piece of kit or platform. Objectivity and experience is one of the things that almost singularly distinguishes pistol-forum from other forums.

Best, Jon

[TCinVA]

Is a brigadier slide worth it for the beretta M9 series?

Not in my estimation.

It's a very, very strong slide but that beefed-up area isn't necessary if you just maintain the gun properly.

[bshnt2015]

I enjoyed reading this thread. The information and knowledge presented highlighted the informed vs the opinionated. I'm just a retired guy and have seen the Beretta used in the LEO community. I had colleagues swear by this weapon platform, other than a large pistol, the Beretta with OEM magazines and proper maintenance was a solid performer. I had coworkers who were a Marine reservist, USAF and an Army reservist, all were officer's rank and were issued Beretta M9, one thing I did noticed was they always used OEM Beretta magazines(no matter what).On a personal note, I own a Beretta 92FS with OEM magazines, I shoot this pistol along side with my Colts, Glocks, Sigs, and S&W. They all work fine and I do proper maintenance. Thanks for the great thread.

[Poconnor]

My Army experience has led me to believe that most military small arm failures and malfunctions are caused by
1. Operator error- examples being no lube, too much lube, improper cleaning and or other things joes do that I can’t imagine. (If you have ever seen a Bradley bushmaster Cannon shoot a barrel down range, a bent M16 barrel or a bent tank tube you know what I mean. )
2. Bad magazines- A pox on armorers who think magazines last forever. I would crush bad magazines and turn them in. They are a disposable item for a reason .
3. Worn out weapons. 1911s from WWll, M16s from the 60s; whatever- shit wears out. The best M16A1 I was issued was made by H&R. It was well worn from being carried a lot but it wasn’t shot much. It was very accurate. I really liked it, light and with the full auto sear the semi auto trigger was better than the A2.
4. Cheap low bid parts and or ammo that is changed from the original spec.

I’m not even going to comment on Police Officers and weapon maintenance. What I witnessed was bad and that’s all I’m going to say.

Finally - My first 9mm was a Taurus copy of a beretta 92. Beretta 92s were over $ 500 back in the 80s. The Taurus was $250. I should have saved more and bought the beretta 92. I have come full circle this year. I sold off my HKs and I bought berettas tuned by Langdon. We all owe a debt to Ernest Langdon for the work he has done on the beretta platform. The ability to buy tuned berettas with little or no wait at the price he charges is a amazing. I can’t think of any other handgun that comes close for the price.

[Inkwell 41]

We all owe a debt to Ernest Langdon for the work he has done on the beretta platform. The ability to buy tuned berettas with little or no wait at the price he charges is a amazing. I can’t think of any other handgun that comes close for the price.

So say we all!

[Super77]

I've shot M9s more than probably 98% of active duty people. I've never seen a slide break but I have seen maybe 3-4 locking blocks break. The locking blocks broke on high round count pistols with unknown (likely nil) preventive maintenance, shooting M882, with older generation locking blocks. Slide breakage on an M9 is not something I'd be concerned about.

[Jesting Devil]

Anecdotally, I did actually see a Beretta slide that had snapped on a 92FS, just like the proverbial SEAL guns. It was at a rental range I worked at, round count completely unknown, no maintenance besides the occasional cleaning ever done as far as I know.

The rear half stayed on the gun, no one injured, and Beretta replaced the top end for free.

[Sal Picante]

My Beretta 92G slide just cracked*!

*Cracked open a beer after sighting in a variety of handloads (titegroup, win231, Accurate #2) and bullet weights.

:cool:

Cheers, everyone!

(I'm going to stay with the Win231... Just so soft in 147...)

[MichaelOrick]

I'm sorry for starting to beating this dead horse again. ;)

I saw the thread, remembered living though it, wanted to see what was being said about it now and add my two cents.

FWIW, I also remember some catastrophic slide failures with SIG P229s in service with the Swiss police about 20 yrs ago. SIG "scalloping" the frame rails and then stopping that when it seemed to cause problems... stuff happens. To everybody.

[JonInWA]

I'm sorry for starting to beating this dead horse again. ;)

I saw the thread, remembered living though it, wanted to see what was being said about it now and add my two cents.

FWIW, I also remember some catastrophic slide failures with SIG P229s in service with the Swiss police about 20 yrs ago. SIG "scalloping" the frame rails and then stopping that when it seemed to cause problems... stuff happens. To everybody.

That was P226s that had that issue, wasn't it?

And no harm, no foul for revitalizing the thread. I just apologize for essentially re-stating today what I said earlier in the thread's life.

Best, Jon

[rojocorsa]

That was Berettas story at the time. The GAO determined the actual cause was bad metallurgy. Basically bad batch of slides made with French steel contaminated with Tellurium.

https://www.gao.gov/products/T-NSIAD-88-46

All this time as a pizza faithful and I never knew it was just the metallurgy. Always thought it has both hot ammo and the metal.


Oh well, I'm late to the party but yeah non issue. Plus every gun since has had the failsafe enlarged hammer pin.


Shoot away!

[Cory]

My Beretta 92G slide just cracked*!

*Cracked open a beer after sighting in a variety of handloads (titegroup, win231, Accurate #2) and bullet weights.

:cool:

Cheers, everyone!

(I'm going to stay with the Win231... Just so soft in 147...)

This made me laugh. Also, isn't Blue Moon twist off?

For those who missed it:

p/B7YvwScpqSN

-Cory

[SKMark]

I bought a used duty 92f in 1995 for $200. I put 300-500 rounds per week in it until 2014 when the slide cracked. The crack is on the slide lock side just above the slide release lever. This is at the front part of the thin section where the locking block catches the slide.

Is this worth fixing? How do I fix it? If I buy a slide from Beretta do I need a gunsmith to fit it to the frame? Will the fix be an "f" or an "fs"? Beretta said they would fix it for $300 is that worth it? If I fix it should I keep the locking block or replace it with a newer generation - it has the square cut block.

I'd appreciate information you have about how to fix this.

Thanks,

Steve

[LockedBreech]

I bought a used duty 92f in 1995 for $200. I put 300-500 rounds per week in it until 2014 when the slide cracked. The crack is on the slide lock side just above the slide release lever. This is at the front part of the thin section where the locking block catches the slide.

Is this worth fixing? How do I fix it? If I buy a slide from Beretta do I need a gunsmith to fit it to the frame? Will the fix be an "f" or an "fs"? Beretta said they would fix it for $300 is that worth it? If I fix it should I keep the locking block or replace it with a newer generation - it has the square cut block.

I'd appreciate information you have about how to fix this.

Thanks,

Steve

For $300, I'd just save another $300-500 and get a 92X, M9A3, or Langton 92G Elite LTT.

300-500 rounds per week for nearly two decades sounds like you got your moneys worth out of it and then some. Treat yo'self and upgrade.

[HCM]

I bought a used duty 92f in 1995 for $200. I put 300-500 rounds per week in it until 2014 when the slide cracked. The crack is on the slide lock side just above the slide release lever. This is at the front part of the thin section where the locking block catches the slide.

Is this worth fixing? How do I fix it? If I buy a slide from Beretta do I need a gunsmith to fit it to the frame? Will the fix be an "f" or an "fs"? Beretta said they would fix it for $300 is that worth it? If I fix it should I keep the locking block or replace it with a newer generation - it has the square cut block.

I'd appreciate information you have about how to fix this.

Thanks,

Steve

Have you contacted Beretta ?

300 rounds per week is 15,600 rounds per year, over 19 years that is 296,400 rounds.

What was your maintenance schedule during this time ? How often did you change recoil springs, locking block, trigger return springs ?

9mm ball ammo was approximately $200 per 1,000 prior to the current panic, that is $59,200 worth of ammo.

i think if you are reporting accurately, or even if you shot 1/10th what you reported, say 29,000 rounds over 19 years / $6k worth of ammo, you should just buy a new Beretta 92 for $600 or $800 considering the cost of the ammo needed to break your last one. If you have never changed the recoil spring or locking block it is the equivalent of buying a new car, never doing an oil change and driving it until the engine seizes. If that is the case, while the slide may have cracked first, the frame has been taking a beating too and you would be better off with a whole new gun.

Normally 92 slides do not need to be fitted but if the slide cracked due to not changing the recoil spring the frame is suspect. If you do just replace the slide I would certainly go with the current (3rd) generation locking block.

If you don't do preventive maintenance, particularly recoil spring changes, any service pistol slide or frame will eventually crack but that's not really what this thread is about. For Beretta 92/86 series guns add locking blocks to that list. locking blocks should be changed every 20,000 rounds, 25,000 for the current 3rd generation locking block, recoil springs should be changed every 5,000 rounds in 92 series guns.

[Tokarev]

When we issued 96D Brigadiers I saw and personally experienced many small parts failures but never saw or heard of a slide failure, even using hot 155 grain .40.






If USBP didn't break slides running the 96D with 155gr ammo I can't see the slides breaking in 9mm. We broke frames (in a couple different places) locking blocks and a few other parts. Plus had a couple versions of trigger spring that always seemed to break.

With that all said, the BP and INS guns were the Brigadier model with the reinforcements in the slide.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[Tokarev]

Is a brigadier slide worth it for the beretta M9 series?I would say yes. Insurance if nothing else.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[HCM]

If USBP didn't break slides running the 96D with 155gr ammo I can't see the slides breaking in 9mm. We broke frames (in a couple different places) locking blocks and a few other parts. Plus had a couple versions of trigger spring that always seemed to break.

With that all said, the BP and INS guns were the Brigadier model with the reinforcements in the slide.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

I personally broke one standard trigger spring and saw a couple others go.

Did you ever break one of the wolff coil springs ?

As I posted up thread, the GAO found Beretta had a batch of slides sourced from France with bad metallurgy which resulted in 3 M9's failing in training use by NSW and 11 more failing in testing that resulted from the three original failures.

Beretta tried to deny responsibility by blaming NSW's ammo in lieu of their bad metallurgy. 14 slides and Beretta's "SIG like" failure to accept responsibility for a one time defect has spun into the giant derp-nado of Beretta slide breakage bullshit we still hear today about how some gun shop commando's uncle got skull fucked by a broken Beretta slide while he was a drummer boy during desert storm.

[willie]

I have seen B92 surplus slides for sale occasionally. Before I spent $300 to repair a worn B, I would buy a new one. But I would investigate having the cracked slide fixed by welding. Don't overlook shipping costs.

Numrich has your part new for $208 as we speak.

[Tokarev]

I personally broke one standard trigger spring and saw a couple others go.

Did you ever break one of the wolff coil springs ?

As I posted up thread, the GAO found Beretta had a batch of slides sourced from France with bad metallurgy which resulted in 3 M9's failing in training use by NSW and 11 more failing in testing that resulted from the three original failures.

Beretta tried to deny responsibility by blaming NSW's ammo in lieu of their bad metallurgy. 14 slides and Beretta's "SIG like" failure to accept responsibility for a one time defect has spun into the giant derp-nado of Beretta slide breakage bullshit we still hear today about how some gun shop commando's uncle got skull fucked by a broken Beretta slide while he was a drummer boy during desert storm.I broke a standard spring and saw quite a few break. It was so common we taught agents to manually flick the trigger forward so they would know how to keep shooting if the spring broke in a gunfight. We also taught turning the pistol upside down if the trigger bar spring broke.

I don't recall ever seeing a Wolff spring break. That's the one with the built-in guide rod? The problem with that one was the assembly could pop out of alignment inside the gun and bind the whole thing up. I never saw it happen but it could lock the trigger up completely if it happened.

Breaking locking blocks locked the gun up good too. I saw a couple of those break. Beretta finally fixed that with Version C.



Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[HCM]

I broke a standard spring and saw quite a few break. It was so common we taught agents to manually flick the trigger forward so they would know how to keep shooting if the spring broke in a gunfight. We also taught turning the pistol upside down if the trigger bar spring broke.

I don't recall ever seeing a Wolff spring break. That's the one with the built-in guide rod? The problem with that one was the assembly could pop out of alignment inside the gun and bind the whole thing up. I never saw it happen but it could lock the trigger up completely if it happened.

Breaking locking blocks locked the gun up good too. I saw a couple of those break. Beretta finally fixed that with Version C.



Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

Yes the Wolff with the guide rod, I never saw one bind up.

I also broke a locking block and blew out an extractor.

[SKMark]

For $300, I'd just save another $300-500 and get a 92X, M9A3, or Langton 92G Elite LTT.

300-500 rounds per week for nearly two decades sounds like you got your moneys worth out of it and then some. Treat yo'self and upgrade.



It was my first pistol so I didn't know much but I figured I got my money out of it - so no complaints. At the time it broke I bought 2 new 92fs and another used 92 a year later. I kept it very clean but it took me about two years before I figured out I needed to replace the recoil spring - even then I only replaced them about every two years. I had a gunsmith work it over twice during that time. Never had a lock block or trigger spring break on it. I did have a lock block brake on a new one at about 4000 rounds - that was disappointing. Thanks HCM for the math - that's about $250/mo - sounds about right but ya don;t have to bring that up to my wife - I only buy the Winchester 115 grain target rounds. When I started shooting a 100round box was $11 at Walmart. Its gone up so much I also bought a 22cal version of the 92 but it just doesn't have the same feel.

Looking back on the break scares me. During a regular shooting session it just started shooting about 3 inches to the right at 25 feet. I coudn't figure out what was wrong. After take more shots to see if it was me I asked the range officer what he thought was wrong - he took a few shoots and said "Yep it shoots to the right." I took a few more shoots before stopping. I had already heard many times that the 92f slide could break and hit you in the face but it didn't dawn on me until I got home that could have been the problem. Yikes!

At the time it broke, Beretta said they'd fix it for $300. But back then I did as you suggested and just bought new. Now I want to fix the old one and keep it. So the question is if it is too worn or would the fix would be unsafe, or if the slide would have to be fitted to the frame because of wear? For example - would the fix be a 92f slide or a 92fs slide - and does a 92fs slide have the same safety features if its riding on a 92f frame?

The black is worn off the slide guides on the frame but they appear to be very smooth and not excessively worn. Using a caliper, I could not find dimensional differences between sides. The slide itself has a coating that wore off but there is very little wear on the steal itself. There is a bit more wear on the cracked, slide stop side. In particular, there is more wear on the slide right below where it broke. There is a bit more wear in that place on the frame as well. It appears the slide was bending down right that the point of fracture for some time - that made me check my other guns. There is also a little more wear on the part of the frame that the barrel lug slides on. There is a little bit of play between the frame and the slide when you wiggle the slide from side to side - but not any more than my newer 92fs. There is a hardly perceptible play when you wiggle the slide up and down on the frame. Compared to my newer 92fs the slide seems just as tight.

HCM suggests the frame has been taking a beating too. I certainly did not replace the recoil springs according to the prescription. What would I look for besides what I note above to identify a beat up slide?

Thanks again,

Steve

[Tokarev]

HCM suggests the frame has been taking a beating too. I certainly did not replace the recoil springs according to the prescription. What would I look for besides what I note above to identify a beat up slide?

Thanks again,

Steve

Frames on the 96 pistols would crack in two common places. The first was along the front of the frame where the dust cover and frame rails meet. Cracks here were vertical and extended down into the dust cover. To check for this we were taught to wipe a coating of oil along the frame and then flex the dust cover. If the oil moved or could otherwise be seen seeping into the junction we knew it was cracked. Or, in some cases, the crack was pretty obvious to the naked eye.

The other common failure point is at the thin area under the grip for the trigger bar spring. This is a thin bar of aluminum that cracked at the back from what I remember although there may have been instances where they cracked up front as well. Take the grip off and press on the bar with thumb or finger. If it can be slightly flexed away from the rest of the frame it is cracked.

Other parts I remember breaking was the firing pin safety tab in the frame. Once that broke the firing pin safety could not be lifted and the gun would no longer fire. This part would crack at the curved area where it kind of folded into an L shape.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[Stony Lane]

This is an Elite II frame from about 2001. It still works great with the .22 conversion kit (since the barrel doesn't move)! Many, many thousands of rounds. I did change the recoil spring quite a few times. The slide is still going great on a "new" EII frame.

52776

52777

[HCM]

If I’m seeing silver or an aluminum frame I would want to think about some type of plating or coding or treatment that helps provide surface hardness like the original asonizing.

[paherne]

I necroposted

[willie]

Is it safe to assume that in the 40 S&W 96 that slide velocity was cracking frames? Beretta engineers could have somewhat reduced slide velocity by installing a heavier hammer spring. Also, making the barrel heavier by increasing dimensions where space allowed would have added to the mass of the slide/barrel combination, which would have helped in this regard. I have wondered whether or not this mix: heavier springs(hammer and recoil) and a heavier barrel when used with a Brigadier slide would have solved frame cracking. Increased trigger pull weight from a heavier hammer spring could have been alleviated to some extent by modifying the sear.

[Bucky]

Is it safe to assume that in the 40 S&W 96 that slide velocity was cracking frames? Beretta engineers could have somewhat reduced slide velocity by installing a heavier hammer spring. Also, making the barrel heavier by increasing dimensions where space allowed would have added to the mass of the slide/barrel combination, which would have helped in this regard. I have wondered whether or not this mix: heavier springs(hammer and recoil) and a heavier barrel when used with a Brigadier slide would have solved frame cracking. Increased trigger pull weight from a heavier hammer spring could have been alleviated to some extent by modifying the sear.

IIRC, Beretta used the same recoil spring in the 9mm and .40. The few times I shot major through my .40s, I ran a heavier spring. Even then, “major .40” is still lighter than traditional factory .40.

[JonInWA]

I found Checkmate magazine springs lost their strength quickly, finish notwithstanding.

I haven't-and that's with 13+ years of use and testing of Check-Mate dry-film magazines, directly provided to me from Check-Mate, covering mostly standard carbon steel springs, but also with one experimental stainless steel spring-all Check-Mate OEM, with me the original and only user of all my magazines. All but one of my Check-Mate magazines were brand-new; the one exception was one of 2 experimental teflon-coated magazines provided to me had been previously wrung out at Check-Mate before it was sent to me.

The only "spring" Issue I've ever experiences with them were with one magazine that I fired weak-handed in an IDPA match with Federal Champion ammunition; after examination, the magazine and spring was fine, it was the combination of a weak hold and the lower-power cartridge.

Of course, my usual disclaier: I'm a sponsored Check-Mate shooter, and captain of the shooting team. Regardless, I'm brutally objective about these things-to you guys and to Check-Mate.

Best, Jon

[JSGlock34]

I haven't-and that's with 13+ years of use and testing of Check-Mate dry-film magazines, directly provided to me from Check-Mate, covering mostly standard carbon steel springs, but also with one experimental stainless steel spring-all Check-Mate OEM, with me the original and only user of all my magazines. All but one of my Check-Mate magazines were brand-new; the one exception was one of 2 experimental teflon-coated magazines provided to me had been previously wrung out at Check-Mate before it was sent to me.

The only "spring" Issue I've ever experiences with them were with one magazine that I fired weak-handed in an IDPA match with Federal Champion ammunition; after examination, the magazine and spring was fine, it was the combination of a weak hold and the lower-power cartridge.

Of course, my usual disclaier: I'm a sponsored Check-Mate shooter, and captain of the shooting team. Regardless, I'm brutally objective about these things-to you guys and to Check-Mate.

Best, Jon

Really, again?


Seems like you and I have covered this ground before, and earlier in this very necro-thread, so I'm not sure why we're revisiting this. I documented my personal experience with the Checkmate magazines several times, and I am not repeating any "internet urban myth". I understand you have a relationship with Checkmate and have had good experience with their magazines. I did not. I standby my previous comments. I see no reason to choose a Checkmate magazine over the Mec-Gar AFC, or Beretta OEM for that matter. There is a reason that there are Beretta branded 18 round Mec-Gar magazines on the way.

52834

[JonInWA]

Really, again?



52834

LOL-you're competely right. Note to self: When reading revitalized necro-posts, read through 'em in their entirety before re-repeating what I've said before. I owe you a p-f beer.

Best, Jon

[JSGlock34]

All good!