Big Win for 9mm Gold Dot

[Tokarev]

New contract announced with DHS:

media.vistaoutdoor.com/p/FP/901.aspx (media.vistaoutdoor.com/p/FP/901.aspx)

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[blues]

New contract announced with DHS:

media.vistaoutdoor.com/p/FP/901.aspx



Congrats to Speer. I like that round and still have some on hand. I was sorta expecting the press release to say +P though, for no particular reason.

[Tokarev]

Congrats to Speer. I like that round and still have some on hand. I was sorta expecting the press release to say +P though, for no particular reason.The previous contract with Speer was +P.

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[WobblyPossum]

Did they do testing or just pick a known high quality, vetted round? I wonder why they didn't choose the G2 like the FBI did?

[Tokarev]

Did they do testing or just pick a known high quality, vetted round? I wonder why they didn't choose the G2 like the FBI did?Ammo was fully tested.

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[Unobtanium]

Did they do testing or just pick a known high quality, vetted round? I wonder why they didn't choose the G2 like the FBI did?

I wonder why the fbi picked g2, personally.

[Tokarev]

I wonder why the fbi picked g2, personally.That might be the better question.

Gold Dot has a good track record both in testing and on the streets.

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[blues]

.....

[QED]

I wonder why the fbi picked g2, personally.

G2 seems to expand less and thus penetrates well beyond the minimum even in bare gel.

[Tokarev]

G2 seems to expand less and thus penetrates well beyond the minimum even in bare gel.Is the standard Gold Dot 147 lacking in this regard?

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[QED]

Is the standard Gold Dot 147 lacking in this regard?

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Depends on your definition of "lacking." Both 124 and 147 grain GDs generally expand to allow 12-13" penetration in bare standard gel; G2 seems to expand less and thus penetrates more.

[TiroFijo]

USSOCOM seems to have chosen the Speer 147 gr GD G2:

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2017/sofic/May17Owens.pdf

With nearly 70,000 SOF, I wonder how big this contract is.

[WobblyPossum]

My impression of G2s performance was that it was similar to Winchester Ranger Bonded 147gr in that it would expand a little less, penetrate a little more, and had improved performance through auto glass.


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[HCM]

124 grain gold dot has been the DHS issue 9mm round since its inception (it was the levascy US Customs round.) Intially it was the standard velocity 124 grain. They started issuing the +P 124 around 2009 or 2010 as I recall.

This seems to just be a renewal of the existing contract. I would not take the press release too literally regarding whether or not the ammo will be +P.

There was a gap in the contract back around 2011/2012. At that time DHS bought a bunch of Winchester Ranger 147 grain bonded of the FBI contract but it was regulated to training ammo after multiple failures to fire due to dead primers.

DHS has recently done testing of 147 grain duty ammo but the results have not been released.

[Tokarev]

My impression of G2s performance was that it was similar to Winchester Ranger Bonded 147gr in that it would expand a little less, penetrate a little more, and had improved performance through auto glass.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's my understanding too.

I'm glad to see ammo companies pushing the envelope and working to improve performance but at some point it would seem to be counterproductive. How many law enforcement shootings involve barriers vs those that don't? Are car bodies and windshields that much of a concern for FBI or an average street officer? Highway patrol notwithstanding I imagine most LE shootings don't involve suspects behind auto glass. Are we seeing performance that's better in some unlikely circumstances at the loss of performance in likely circumstances?

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[QED]

That's my understanding too.

I'm glad to see ammo companies pushing the envelope and working to improve performance but at some point it would seem to be counterproductive. How many law enforcement shootings involve barriers vs those that don't? Are car bodies and windshields that much of a concern for FBI or an average street officer? Highway patrol notwithstanding I imagine most LE shootings don't involve suspects behind auto glass. Are we seeing performance that's better in some unlikely circumstances at the loss of performance in likely circumstances?

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Is having bonded handgun bullets really advantageous only in some unlikely circumstances -- at the expense of loss of performance in likely circumstances?

[PFranklin]

That's my understanding too.

I'm glad to see ammo companies pushing the envelope and working to improve performance but at some point it would seem to be counterproductive. How many law enforcement shootings involve barriers vs those that don't? Are car bodies and windshields that much of a concern for FBI or an average street officer? Highway patrol notwithstanding I imagine most LE shootings don't involve suspects behind auto glass. Are we seeing performance that's better in some unlikely circumstances at the loss of performance in likely circumstances?

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Which raises an interesting point. I've often wondered, since my days as a trainee in the academy, How on earth did the FBI become the preeminent authority on LE firearms? They weren't even armed until the 1930s or thereabouts, so there's many more police agencies that have real history with firearms and their use. Aside from the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout debacle, an embarrassment that was completely avoidable, how often does a G-Man ever even draw his pistol?

[Sigfan26]

Which raises an interesting point. I've often wondered, since my days as a trainee in the academy, How on earth did the FBI become the preeminent authority on LE firearms? They weren't even armed until the 1930s or thereabouts, so there's many more police agencies that have real history with firearms and their use. Aside from the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout debacle, an embarrassment that was completely avoidable, how often does a G-Man ever even draw his pistol?

They conduct some of the best firearms and ammunition testing in law enforcement. I was unaware that was debatable.


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[TC215]

Which raises an interesting point. I've often wondered, since my days as a trainee in the academy, How on earth did the FBI become the preeminent authority on LE firearms? They weren't even armed until the 1930s or thereabouts, so there's many more police agencies that have real history with firearms and their use. Aside from the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout debacle, an embarrassment that was completely avoidable, how often does a G-Man ever even draw his pistol?

??

I know agents out of my local field office that have been in shootings in recent years. They draw their guns as much as any other investigator, I guess.

[TC215]

That's my understanding too.

I'm glad to see ammo companies pushing the envelope and working to improve performance but at some point it would seem to be counterproductive. How many law enforcement shootings involve barriers vs those that don't? Are car bodies and windshields that much of a concern for FBI or an average street officer? Highway patrol notwithstanding I imagine most LE shootings don't involve suspects behind auto glass. Are we seeing performance that's better in some unlikely circumstances at the loss of performance in likely circumstances?

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“Average street officers” are around vehicles all the time. There are a lot of shootings that happen in and around vehicles.

[Lester Polfus]

Which raises an interesting point. I've often wondered, since my days as a trainee in the academy, How on earth did the FBI become the preeminent authority on LE firearms? They weren't even armed until the 1930s or thereabouts, so there's many more police agencies that have real history with firearms and their use. Aside from the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout debacle, an embarrassment that was completely avoidable, how often does a G-Man ever even draw his pistol?

One of their primary roles is the advancement of law enforcement TTP's through research. They spend quite a bit of money doing that. So if you're the sheriff of East Cackalacky county, you'll lean on the $$ that the FBI has spent testing and evaluating equipment rather than having deputy Cletus shoot up some leftover hams from the Piggly Wiggly to see what the best duty round is.

[HCM]

Is having bonded handgun bullets really advantageous only in some unlikely circumstances -- at the expense of loss of performance in likely circumstances?

Shooting people in cars may be "unlikely" for the average civilian CCW'er but LE shoots people in vehicles on a regular basis.

The criminal suspects engaged by civilian defenders are the same ones engaged by LE. While vehicle shootings are uncommon for civilian defenders, there are circumstances in home defense where one might need to shoot through heavy furniture, dry wall etc.

[HCM]

Which raises an interesting point. I've often wondered, since my days as a trainee in the academy, How on earth did the FBI become the preeminent authority on LE firearms? They weren't even armed until the 1930s or thereabouts, so there's many more police agencies that have real history with firearms and their use. Aside from the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout debacle, an embarrassment that was completely avoidable, how often does a G-Man ever even draw his pistol?


One of their primary roles is the advancement of law enforcement TTP's through research. They spend quite a bit of money doing that. So if you're the sheriff of East Cackalacky county, you'll lean on the $$ that the FBI has spent testing and evaluating equipment rather than having deputy Cletus shoot up some leftover hams from the Piggly Wiggly to see what the best duty round is.

One of the FBI's core missions in LE assistance, both direct investigative assistance and indirect assistance including maintaining criminal indices such as NCIC and things like researching LE TTP's. The majority of LE agencies in the U.S. are small agencies with limited training and research budgets.

Another part of the FBI LE assistance mission is the FBI National Academy, a training programs for state and local LE leadership. If you are the sheriff of East Cackalacky you may go through the FBI NA and learn the "FBI way" or you may have gone through FBI NA as a Sgt or Lt prior to being promoted. When you come back from the FBI NA, you will be inclined to look favorably on FBI TTPs and equipment.

RE: the 1930's - Having lots of funding doesn't hurt. When the FBI did finally got armed they recruited many known "gunfighters" from state and local LE, men such as "Jelly Brice" and continued to recruit shooters out of the military etc. through WWII, Korea and Vietnam. Even today the FBI has a "tactical" recruiting program specifically to recruit special operations troops and state / local LE officers with SWAT experience.

Depending on assignment, FBI agents, working in the field, draw their pistols about as often as state / local detectives which is to say significantly less often that local patrol officers. However, given the generally pro active nature of investigative work there is more opportunity to see trouble coming and bring long guns and lots of friends with long guns.

[Tokarev]

“Average street officers” are around vehicles all the time. There are a lot of shootings that happen in and around vehicles.

I'm not saying that they don't happen. I'm asking if they happen so often that ammo needs to be tailored specifically to windshields and sheet metal. Is the desire for better performance against glass and sheet metal worth the trade off of less expansion and slightly deeper penetration?

[PFranklin]

Okay. They're great at training and have lots of money. I get that. Sounds like many a law school professor: great instructor but never practiced law, much less was ever inside a courtroom. The agents I've dealt with, eh...nice guys and all. Desk jockeys mostly. So, since the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout the FBI has become the be all and end all of police agencies? I'd rather have ol' Deputy Cletus, a farm boy with common sense that knows which end of the horse to approach from than a guy worried about stepping in horse dung with his pretty loafers. There's a good reason the FBI recruits the likes of Jelly Brice and others from the real world.

[WobblyPossum]

I'm not saying that they don't happen. I'm asking if they happen so often that ammo needs to be tailored specifically to windshields and sheet metal. Is the desire for better performance against glass and sheet metal worth the trade off of less expansion and slightly deeper penetration?

I don't see trading a little bit of expansion for a little bit more penetration as a negative in this case. The differences in expansion are minimal, a few hundredths of an inch or a tenth here and there. The gains in penetration might be a couple of inches. That definitely sounds like a positive to me. I want my carry/duty ammo to be able to penetrate windshields, sheet metal, wrists and arms, etc and still reach vital organs. I'm not saying that penetration always trumps expansion, otherwise we'd all be carrying FMJ ammo, but if you're choosing ammunition based on differences in recovered diameter measured in hundredths of an inch, that might as well be angels dancing on the head of a pin. I'll take the round that gives me an extra couple of inches of penetration.

Again, most of the differences between different Winchester Ranger, Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot loadings are academic (if Winchester gets its QC issues figured out). My agency issues 230gr .45 Gold Got and I feel confident in it. For my off duty carry, where I get a choice, I grabbed a case of 124gr +P 9mm HST because I found it for the cheapest price, but if I could have found G2 147gr for that price, I would have bought it because I like the extra couple of inches of penetration. I just don't like them enough to spend $200 more per case.

[Robinson]

Okay. They're great at training and have lots of money. I get that. Sounds like many a law school professor: great instructor but never practiced law, much less was ever inside a courtroom. The agents I've dealt with, eh...nice guys and all. Desk jockeys mostly. So, since the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout the FBI has become the be all and end all of police agencies? I'd rather have ol' Deputy Cletus, a farm boy with common sense that knows which end of the horse to approach from than a guy worried about stepping in horse dung with his pretty loafers. There's a good reason the FBI recruits the likes of Jelly Brice and others from the real world.

The forest is right on the other side of that tree you're looking at.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm asking if they happen so often that ammo needs to be tailored specifically to windshields and sheet metal. Is the desire for better performance against glass and sheet metal worth the trade off of less expansion and slightly deeper penetration?

Yes to both.

[blues]

Okay. They're great at training and have lots of money. I get that. Sounds like many a law school professor: great instructor but never practiced law, much less was ever inside a courtroom. The agents I've dealt with, eh...nice guys and all. Desk jockeys mostly. So, since the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout the FBI has become the be all and end all of police agencies? I'd rather have ol' Deputy Cletus, a farm boy with common sense that knows which end of the horse to approach from than a guy worried about stepping in horse dung with his pretty loafers. There's a good reason the FBI recruits the likes of Jelly Brice and others from the real world.

Man, I thought I gave the FBI a hard time for the couple of jurisdictional run-ins I had with them over poaching in one or two investigations, or taking credit that wasn't rightly theirs...

...But that said, I think you're criticism is overly harsh. There are plenty of bureau agents in harm's way and I can't see the point of trying to kick them to the curb for personal or petty reasons.

I was a special agent with Customs and we didn't get into shoot outs on a regular basis, in fact it was rare. (Though a female partner of mine had occasion to give two bad guys a dirt nap.) We routinely drew our weapons not only on SRT, (of course),...but on arrests taking place on the street following surveillance, car stops, narcotics interdiction, warrants and entries without warrants. We would arrest murderers who aren't charged federally with such.

Without question I would estimate having pointed my weapon at bad guys hundreds of times over a career in NYC and Miami. (Not to mention instances of rolling around on the ground with felons attempting to flee or escape.)

I feel your denigration of the FBI is personal, unwarranted and reflects poorly on the fraternity of law enforcement, not to mention the members of that agency who are active and well respected members here.

Here endeth my rant. Sorry for the diversion. Seems there's just not enough blood and pain to satisfy some.

[BehindBlueI's]

Okay. They're great at training and have lots of money. I get that. Sounds like many a law school professor: great instructor but never practiced law, much less was ever inside a courtroom. The agents I've dealt with, eh...nice guys and all. Desk jockeys mostly. So, since the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout the FBI has become the be all and end all of police agencies? I'd rather have ol' Deputy Cletus, a farm boy with common sense that knows which end of the horse to approach from than a guy worried about stepping in horse dung with his pretty loafers. There's a good reason the FBI recruits the likes of Jelly Brice and others from the real world.

Our independent testing has mirrored what the FBI testing showed for both ammo and equipment.

This desk jockey was in dress shoes and a tie when he shot a guy (in a car, by the way) who was trying to kill uniformed cops and had already shot one. The FBI desk jockies attached to us do stakeouts, raids, and takedowns right along side us.

Feel free to get your ammo and gun reviews from Youtube and Cletus. You want to be issued a P320? Because that's how you get issued a P320. It's also how Cletus finds RIP ammo and the Judge.

[QED]

Shooting people in cars may be "unlikely" for the average civilian CCW'er but LE shoots people in vehicles on a regular basis.

The criminal suspects engaged by civilian defenders are the same ones engaged by LE. While vehicle shootings are uncommon for civilian defenders, there are circumstances in home defense where one might need to shoot through heavy furniture, dry wall etc.

Although the advantage of controlled-expansion bonded handgun bullets does include generally superior performance against barriers, compared to non bonded handgun bullets, it's hardly the only significant advantage.

[RJ]

I am not really able to test and select ammo, so I kind of represent the Cletus genre here. Having said that, back to the OP: I picked Gold Dot 124 +p for a carry load as I plan to shoot (mostly) 124 gr in matches and training next year. The +p is still GTG/on Doc’s list, right?


ETA 124+p GD *IS* still on Doc’s list.

[blues]

I am not really able to test and select ammo, so I kind of represent the Cletus genre here. Having said that, back to the OP: I picked Gold Dot 124 +p for a carry load as I plan to shoot (mostly) 124 gr in matches and training next year. The +p is still GTG/on Doc’s list, right?

Let's not give Cletus a bad name. I live in a somewhat rural county of about 30,000 which, outside of the small town P.D. in the county seat, the relatively small sheriff's office patrols and is responsible for the rest, including where I live.

This is a great bunch of guys I enjoy qualifying with for LEOSA and who are entrusted with the lives of our families and neighbors.

I write the sheriff every year to tell him how much I appreciate their efforts, how effortless they make my qualifications where they treat me like a brother LEO despite my being retired, and thank them for their fraternity and good work.

I'd no sooner disparage "Cletus" than anyone other LEO I've had the privilege of working alongside during my years on the job.

[Tokarev]

Here are some comparative screen shots taken off the Speer/Vista Outdoors website.

I didn't take shots of all the various test media just heavy clothing and then glass.

First two are the 147 G2. The shots with two bullets per are 147 and 124 +P old school Gold Dot. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171220/1c1e211467761b163922b1101ad6eaa8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171220/d211ca2bf434a2e444af76fdbaad6a96.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171220/ad2ceaa221171ad2afcb7f264539d108.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171220/2c9cc07a7b606a0fac1f5313cddea37a.jpg

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[RJ]

Let's not give Cletus a bad name. I live in a somewhat rural county of about 30,000 which, outside of the small town P.D. in the county seat, the relatively small sheriff's office patrols and is responsible for the rest, including where I live.

This is a great bunch of guys I enjoy qualifying with for LEOSA and who are entrusted with the lives of our families and neighbors.

I write the sheriff every year to tell him how much I appreciate their efforts, how effortless they make my qualifications where they treat me like a brother LEO despite my being retired, and thank them for their fraternity and good work.

I'd no sooner disparage "Cletus" than anyone other LEO I've had the privilege of working alongside during my years on the job.

I spoke in jest, purely directed at myself, in the event it was not obvious. (And it may not have been).

I fully support all our sworn officers at all levels, in all jurisdictions large and small.

Anyway, back to the ammo, this is interesting stuff.

[El Cid]

Our independent testing has mirrored what the FBI testing showed for both ammo and equipment.

This desk jockey was in dress shoes and a tie when he shot a guy (in a car, by the way) who was trying to kill uniformed cops and had already shot one. The FBI desk jockies attached to us do stakeouts, raids, and takedowns right along side us.

Feel free to get your ammo and gun reviews from Youtube and Cletus. You want to be issued a P320? Because that's how you get issued a P320. It's also how Cletus finds RIP ammo and the Judge.

That is officially my favorite post of 2017! I genuinely laughed out loud. Agree 100%.

To the doubters in the thread - the federal agencies are like every state and local agency I've encountered. They all have their aggressive, meat-eaters as well as their lazy, bottom feeders. Then there are the bulk of the personnel who fall somewhere in the middle. Yes, they have agents who used to be CPA's or engineers, but they also have plenty of former LE/Mil as well. They have some who work 9 to 5 with a 2 hour lunch, and some who work 20 hour days eating lunch and dinner in their car/wire room/etc.

I'm pretty sure they still have a significant number of shootings in and around vehicles. The point is, they chose the G2 for themselves based on their testing. I've yet to see them try to convince others they must follow suit. They will however make available ALL their testing and results to any LE agency in the nation who makes an official request. With their facilities and budget, I can't imagine any agency has better testing of ammunition. Maybe LAPD, but NYPD while large enough to do so is doing everything firearm related with one hand behind their back due to politicians and the anti-gun culture there.

Let's not forget, most state and local agencies qual once a year. The feds do it 4 times a year. Every agency has gunfighters who train on their own and slugs who complain about the few days they are forced to be there. My point is - in well over a decade of doing this job, there are people I've worked with I'd go through a door with, and people I'd tell to stay home or go sit in the CP. How I would choose them has to do with their behavior and not the agency name on their shield.

[PFranklin]

Perhaps this discussion belongs elsewhere re the FBI. And perhaps my experiences with them and the cases I've worked alongside them are not truly reflective of the agency as a whole but are aberrations. Like what we're seeing today from the FBI's top execs. Surely, that too, must be an aberration.

[HCM]

Perhaps this discussion belongs elsewhere re the FBI. And perhaps my experiences with them and the cases I've worked alongside them are not truly reflective of the agency as a whole but are aberrations. Like what we're seeing today from the FBI's top execs. Surely, that too, must be an aberration.

Were the top execs of your agency representative of the cops you worked the street with ?

You get the occasional Chief etc who is still a “cop” but it’s the exception not the rule.

[blues]

Were the top execs of your agency representative of the cops you worked the street with ?

You took the words out of my mouth, H. If one wants to find knuckleheads from the brass on down to the field in any agency, they're not hard to find.
On the other hand, within any outfit one can also find honest, capable, (and even occasionally heroic), individuals.

I personally know two LE talking heads who are frequent contributors on CNN. If I judged their agencies simply by my opinion of them personally, I'd be doing those outfits a disservice.

In 20+ years on the job I've never met an LEO who didn't have something to grouse about within his own department.

[HCM]

Did they do testing or just pick a known high quality, vetted round? I wonder why they didn't choose the G2 like the FBI did?

Getting back to the OP subject, ICE does the ammo testing and purchasing for all the DHS LE Agencies (CBP, USBP, USCG, FAMS etc). As such they have a full time ballistics engineering staff who test new duty ammo, do quality control / lot testing on current duty ammo deliveries, and do analysis on defective rounds discovered during training and terminal effects of rounds used in duty shootings.

My understanding is they use the current FBI testing protocols.

[QED]

The FBI's greatest contribution to improvement of handgun ammunition was the decision, after '86 Miami event, to seek the input of the likes of M. Fackler and D. MacPherson, for example. And the rest is history.

[El Cid]

Getting back to the OP subject, ICE does the ammo testing and purchasing for all the DHS LE Agencies (CBP, USBP, USCG, FAMS etc). As such they have a full time ballistics engineering staff who test new duty ammo, do quality control / lot testing on current duty ammo deliveries, and do analysis on defective rounds discovered during training and terminal effects of rounds used in duty shootings.

My understanding is they use the current FBI testing protocols.

I think what most folks miss is that there are several brands and bullets that pass their protocols. Each agency will choose one based on their own requirements and needs. Choosing something other than the G2 doesn't mean an agency is going against the FBI.

[Tokarev]

I think what most folks miss is that there are several brands and bullets that pass their protocols. Each agency will choose one based on their own requirements and needs. Choosing something other than the G2 doesn't mean an agency is going against the FBI.Sometimes standards are slightly different though. ICE has slightly different testing protocols. ICE doesn't shoot through plywood or sheetrock as an example.

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[Lester Polfus]

My deputy Cletus remark may have seemed a bit flippant. I've some experience with small rural agencies. Some of them are absolute trainwrecks, some of them are full of professionals who accomplish great things with a very limited amount of resources. My point is the FBI is a tremendous amount of free information for them that they could never afford to produce on their own.

As far as intermediate barriers go, the needs of all non-law enforcement people are not the same. It's easy to forgot about us rural folks, but one of my concerns is that my carry handgun my have to deal with a large toothy carnivore. Deeper penetration is a good idea for that job, and my understanding is that good performance through things like auto glass can reasonably be expected to predict good performance through skulls and thick scapulas. And while shooting into and around vehicles may not be as much of A Thing for urban/suburban folks, I've encountered crew cab pickups full of tweaker assholes in the National Forest.

[Zincwarrior]

Man, I thought I gave the FBI a hard time for the couple of jurisdictional run-ins I had with them over poaching in one or two investigations, or taking credit that wasn't rightly theirs...

...But that said, I think you're criticism is overly harsh. There are plenty of bureau agents in harm's way and I can't see the point of trying to kick them to the curb for personal or petty reasons.

I was a special agent with Customs and we didn't get into shoot outs on a regular basis, in fact it was rare. (Though a female partner of mine had occasion to give two bad guys a dirt nap.) We routinely drew our weapons not only on SRT, (of course),...but on arrests taking place on the street following surveillance, car stops, narcotics interdiction, warrants and entries without warrants. We would arrest murderers who aren't charged federally with such.

Without question I would estimate having pointed my weapon at bad guys hundreds of times over a career in NYC and Miami. (Not to mention instances of rolling around on the ground with felons attempting to flee or escape.)

I feel your denigration of the FBI is personal, unwarranted and reflects poorly on the fraternity of law enforcement, not to mention the members of that agency who are active and well respected members here.

Here endeth my rant. Sorry for the diversion. Seems there's just not enough blood and pain to satisfy some.

Well this thread got a bit weird. Can we right track it?

[blues]

Well this thread got a bit weird. Can we right track it?

Feel free.

[Zincwarrior]

Here are some comparative screen shots taken off the Speer/Vista Outdoors website.

I didn't take shots of all the various test media just heavy clothing and then glass.

First two are the 147 G2. The shots with two bullets per are 147 and 124 +P old school Gold Dot. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171220/1c1e211467761b163922b1101ad6eaa8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171220/d211ca2bf434a2e444af76fdbaad6a96.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171220/ad2ceaa221171ad2afcb7f264539d108.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171220/2c9cc07a7b606a0fac1f5313cddea37a.jpg

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The 53619 looks optimum to me.
With a 147 grain, would there be any issues on reliability with the pistol, as the 9mm was designed for 124 grain initially?

[Lester Polfus]

The 53619 looks optimum to me.
With a 147 grain, would there be any issues on reliability with the pistol, as the 9mm was designed for 124 grain initially?

Likely no. There are many agencies running 147 grain 9mm loads, and I've never heard of them being inherently less reliable than 124 grain.

[Jeep]

I am not, and have never been, in LE. And I'm not impressed by the FBI's top brass right now since they certainly seem to have been messing around in politics, from which they should stay far away.

That being said, everything I have ever seen indicates that the FBI has a first class firearms training staff; their firearms training at Quantico seems to be a model; and their terminal ballistics research is excellent.

Besides, Doc Roberts, who has forgotten more about terminal ballistics than I have ever learned, thinks they know what they are doing.

The issue isn't whether the FBI is in the most gunfights (I think the Border Patrol probably is) but the quality of work they do in training and in the evaluation of ammunition. And, from what I can tell that is first rate. Also, again from what I can tell, some guys in uniform who get in all too many gunfights have a pretty close relationship to the FBI guys.

As for which is better, GD 124 +P, GD 147, G2 147, etc., etc., I figure the right answer is to use (1) what works best and is most accurate for you from Doc's list that also (2) costs the least. Balance those factors, buy and test your ammo and don't worry that someone is using something else.

[Tokarev]

Border Patrol long subscribed to the lighter bullet at high velocity idea. This seems to have been a carryover from the days of 125gr 357 Magnum.

The original 155 grain 40 load was made by Remington but that changed later to Federal. The current load is the Federal HST 180 grain. It is one of the best, possibly the best, loads currently available for that cartridge.

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[QED]

Border Patrol long subscribed to the lighter bullet at high velocity idea. This seems to have been a carryover from the days of 125gr 357 Magnum.

The original 155 grain 40 load was made by Remington but that changed later to Federal. The current load is the Federal HST 180 grain. It is one of the best, possibly the best, loads currently available for that cartridge.

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It's somewhat surprising that they haven't jumped on the 9mm bandwagon.

[Tokarev]

It's somewhat surprising that they haven't jumped on the 9mm bandwagon.That's in the works. Probably next FY.

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[HCM]

It's somewhat surprising that they haven't jumped on the 9mm bandwagon.

It's coming.

CBP, of which USBP is a part, has been formally studying COTS (Commercial off the shelf) 9mm pistols for the past year or two. They just released an RFI soliciting 9mm pistols for testing as the next CBP duty gun.

Thread on the CBP 9mm RFI here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28942-RFI-is-out-for-CBP-s-new-9mm-pistol

Given the size of CBP, it will be a year or two before a new pistol is selected and at least another year beyond that before they start showing up in duty holsters. Full transition to "pure fleet" 9mm will likely take at least another 2 to 3 years.

[QED]

That's in the works. Probably next FY.

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I'll gladly take a whole bunch of those XM40HCs from them if the price is right. :)

[El Cid]

I'll gladly take a whole bunch of those XM40HCs from them if the price is right. :)

It was mentioned in the CBP solicitation thread but sadly that isn't likely. Bill Clinton declared no federal forearms can be sold or traded. They end up getting crushed or melted. Trump could reverse that but I know I shed a tear over a certain agency destroying pallets of 10mm MP-5's I'd have gladly paid a tax stamp to get.

[QED]

It was mentioned in the CBP solicitation thread but sadly that isn't likely. Bill Clinton declared no federal forearms can be sold or traded. They end up getting crushed or melted. Trump could reverse that but I know I shed a tear over a certain agency destroying pallets of 10mm MP-5's I'd have gladly paid a tax stamp to get.

The legacy of Bill Clinton never seems to end.......

[Jeep]

Border Patrol long subscribed to the lighter bullet at high velocity idea. This seems to have been a carryover from the days of 125gr 357 Magnum.

The original 155 grain 40 load was made by Remington but that changed later to Federal. The current load is the Federal HST 180 grain. It is one of the best, possibly the best, loads currently available for that cartridge.

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The 155 grain Gold Dot (which they didn't use), was actually a pretty good round, but like all of the 155's it was tough on pistols (particularly, in my experience, Glocks). Those HST 180's shoot a whole bunch softer.

[HCM]

The 155 grain Gold Dot (which they didn't use), was actually a pretty good round, but like all of the 155's it was tough on pistols (particularly, in my experience, Glocks). Those HST 180's shoot a whole bunch softer.

The Remington 155's were screamers. I'm convinced they were an unacknowledged "+P" .40 round. The HK's held up to it well but it was hard on the Beretta 96D Brigadiers.

For some reason they came in 25 round boxes. I recently pulled a few boxes out and fired them in mu USPC. My hands were sore. I don't know how I fired thousands of rounds of that stuff- of course that may be exactly why my hands are sore now .........

[HCM]

It was mentioned in the CBP solicitation thread but sadly that isn't likely. Bill Clinton declared no federal forearms can be sold or traded. They end up getting crushed or melted. Trump could reverse that but I know I shed a tear over a certain agency destroying pallets of 10mm MP-5's I'd have gladly paid a tax stamp to get.

XM40HC is the DHS .40 duty load- 180 grain .40 HST in the generic white "government cheese" box.

Now I'm curious if the 41 CFR which superseded the Clinton executive order covers ammo.

I've seen the purple tinted Winchester .40 and 223 DHS practice ammo for sale but I may be rejects or contract over runs. BTW that purple .223 62 grain JHP shoots very well out of 1/7 twist barrels, more accurate than our duty ammo.

[El Cid]

XM40HC is the DHS .40 duty load- 180 grain .40 HST in the generic white "government cheese" box.

Now I'm curious if the 41 CFR which superseded the Clinton executive order covers ammo.

I've seen the purple tinted Winchester .40 and 223 DHS practice ammo for sale but I may be rejects or contract over runs. BTW that purple .223 62 grain JHP shoots very well out of 1/7 twist barrels, more accurate than our duty ammo.

Ahh. I figured it was some obscure weapon like their UMP 40's. Lol! I pay very little attention to anything in that caliber.

[QED]

The Remington 155's were screamers. I'm convinced they were an unacknowledged "+P" .40 round. The HK's held up to it well but it was hard on the Beretta 96D Brigadiers.

For some reason they came in 25 round boxes. I recently pulled a few boxes out and fired them in mu USPC. My hands were sore. I don't know how I fired thousands of rounds of that stuff- of course that may be exactly why my hands are sore now .........

Shooting a hot .40 (155 gr.@ 1250 fps) out of a pistol basically designed for 9mm is certainly not a very good idea. I like terminal ballistics of .40 when it's not watered down and if fired out of a pistol designed for .40; otherwise it might as well be a 9mm.

[BehindBlueI's]

The HK's held up to it well but it was hard on the Beretta 96D Brigadiers.


Based on the experience of one of our neighboring departments, ALL .40 loads were tough on the 96D. They broke them. A lot.

[HCM]

Based on the experience of one of our neighboring departments, ALL .40 loads were tough on the 96D. They broke them. A lot.

The first time INS / USBP tested .40 cal pistols none passed. The Brigadier slide was supposedly developed to pass the next round of testing. Second time around the 96D brigadier and the SIG P229 DAO passed with the 96D gettimg the contract via some shenanigans which saw the head of the INS FTU get prosecuted.

The Berettas were reliable but not durable in .40. I personally broke three of them within a few years.

Our current P229s have held up well but the HKs seemed to be the most durable.

[QED]

Our current P229s have held up well but the HKs seemed to be the most durable.

HK .40 pistols were designed specifically for .40 so they should be durable.

[Tokarev]

HK .40 pistols were designed specifically for .40 so they should be durable.The P2000 has been a sturdy gun. The only regularly broken part seems to be the trigger spring. And the occasional broken hammer strut.

High round count guns will eventually break at the slide journal for the recoil spring.

Otherwise the only other things that seem to do the P2000 in is mishaps and abuse. Frames and trigger guards broken from spills, falls, ATV accidents etc. And broken frames from being careless with the right side slide release.

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[BehindBlueI's]

HK .40 pistols were designed specifically for .40 so they should be durable.

As was the P229.

[QED]

As was the P229.

P229 should also be durable in .40, unlike earlier Berettas, Glocks, etc.

[psalms144.1]

The Remington 155's were screamers. I'm convinced they were an unacknowledged "+P" .40 round. The HK's held up to it well but it was hard on the Beretta 96D Brigadiers.Since we slaved off the DHS contract, that 155 grain screamer is still our issued and mandated duty load. There's a reason why I only qualify with and carry personally owned 9mms.

If we would have adopted a more "updated" ammo, maybe in 180gr, I might have stuck with what's issued, and easy to get...

[Jeep]

Since we slaved off the DHS contract, that 155 grain screamer is still our issued and mandated duty load. There's a reason why I only qualify with and carry personally owned 9mms.

If we would have adopted a more "updated" ammo, maybe in 180gr, I might have stuck with what's issued, and easy to get...

The 155 gr. DHS rounds have an Internet reputation of being fairly effective (though hard on wrists and guns). Is that your agency's experience?

[psalms144.1]

The 155 gr. DHS rounds have an Internet reputation of being fairly effective (though hard on wrists and guns). Is that your agency's experience?In our EXTREMELY limited uses of this ammo in the real world, it has performed as well as could be hoped for handgun ammo.

[Tokarev]

I don't think I ever saw any gel stats with the old Remington ammo. From what I remember the federal 155 does quite well but does have some shallow penetration when compared to the slightly heavier 180 grain stuff. I know 40 is kind of the odd man out but it is still a very effective handgun cartridge.

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[BehindBlueI's]

I don't think I ever saw any gel stats with the old Remington ammo. From what I remember the federal 155 does quite well but does have some shallow penetration when compared to the slightly heavier 180 grain stuff. I know 40 is kind of the odd man out but it is still a very effective handgun cartridge.

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180 gr Federal Tactical Bonded performed very well for us.

[SWAT Lt.]

While not the same 155 gr ammo as the DHS contract ammo, our 155 gr Federal Tactical Bonded worked well. Much better than the 155 Hydra Shok we were initially issued when we switched to the .40 S&W.

[Hambo]

The Remington 155's were screamers. I'm convinced they were an unacknowledged "+P" .40 round.

I thought the +P was Cor-Bon 135gr. Not quite as bad as .357 in an Airweight, but in a G27 it was close.

[Chuck Whitlock]

IIRC, the original (Remington?) 155 gr. load was spec'd at 1200 fps and 500 ft/lbs. energy.