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Doc_Glock
12-16-2017, 10:34 PM
I have never liked shotguns, especially 12 ga. That being said, I used an old heavy pump this past weekend to shoot flung clays, and dang if it wasn't a huge amount of fun and I didn't feel beat up from it at all. It was fun to try to keep up with the loading from a pocket of shells as well. Must have been the combination of heavy shotgun and light loads. The few tactical shotguns (mossberg 500, and Beretta 1301) I have tried left me sour on the platform. I have also tried a friend's Benelli something or other duck gun and it was a pleasure to shoot. I have also shot a Beretta 20 ga Semi Auto and that thing was a total hoot.

Anyway, I get the feeling that if I bought a fun shotgun with a similar manual of arms to a tactical shotgun, I would shoot the fun one, and keep up to speed on how to handle the tactical from a load and unload perspective. Every time I handle a shotgun, which is infrequently, I feel like I am learning how to handle the thing all over again. I would like to get over that learning curve to unconscious competence.

So the question is: If I wanted to get a couple shotguns from the same family that functioned similarly, one tactical, and one for killing clays, which would you suggest. If I ever hunted with it, it would be desert stuff like rabbits, dove or quail, but honestly, I would probably never hunt with it. I don't need to be cheap about it, but I don't need some ultra expensive gun as well, just something reliable.

Lon
12-16-2017, 10:58 PM
If you didn’t like the 1301, I’d say a Benelli.

Peally
12-16-2017, 11:32 PM
Depends on the Benelli. My M1 beats me to shit, but the M4s I've used shot like heavy expensive dreams.

ranger
12-16-2017, 11:37 PM
I was a very active Clays shooter. I have multiple Rem 1100 Clays guns - 12 gauge, 20 gauge and 28 gauge - and a Rem 1100 Competition 12 gauge for HD. The Rem 1100 is not the favored 3 gun or "tactical" shotgun but they have served me well.

Doc_Glock
12-16-2017, 11:45 PM
Depends on the Benelli. My M1 beats me to shit, but the M4s I've used shot like heavy expensive dreams.

I think the issue with the 1301 is it is so dang light it beats me up. They run well.

Spartan1980
12-16-2017, 11:48 PM
The 1301 beat your shoulder up? It's been pretty successful in the 3 gun world and those guys shoot fast. It and the Remington Versamax are gas guns which will be softer on the shoulder and have done well in 3 gun. If you go with a Benelli the Vinci is a newer design. Mine feels noticeably softer than the M2 I had running the same loads. It'll be hard to beat a Benelli for reliability with it's inertia operated action but they aren't as soft shooting as the gas guns and have to have a certain power level of shell to even work. My Vinci will shoot the low recoil buck and slugs but I doubt it would go any lighter than a 1oz load at 1145 FPS. The comfortech stocks on the Benellis do help with the real heavy loads but I'm not real sure they do much with bird loads. I'm sad to say that the Italian Beretta and Benelli shotguns are head and shoulders above anything American made I've seen when it comes to build quality. If it were me I'd look hard at the 1301 again or go to a Benelli Vinci.

Doc_Glock
12-16-2017, 11:51 PM
The 1301 beat your shoulder up?

I am admittedly a recoil weenie. Could be a just need to learn to shoot. Or have a second heavy gun to practice with and do limited shooting with an 18” 1301.

lpesenson
12-17-2017, 12:04 AM
Or use low recoil ammunition like Fiochi slugs or LE buckshot, etc. Beretta 1301 is quite reliable with low recoil ammo.

Spartan1980
12-17-2017, 12:05 AM
I am admittedly a recoil weenie. Could be a just need to learn to shoot. Or have a second heavy gun to practice with and do limited shooting with an 18” 1301.

Another to look at is the Winchester SX3 or SX4. I had an FN SLP Mk1 which is identical to the SX2 and it was a soft shooter. But it was heavy like a tank and didn't point or swing well for me. For that kind of money I'd be looking for Italian iron but it may work for you.

Unobtanium
12-17-2017, 03:01 AM
I really like my supernova tactical with a limbsaver pad. Whatever you buy, bolt a limbsaver on. Personally, I find my benelli m4s to be very pleasant, especially with tactical low recoil stuff.

Unobtanium
12-17-2017, 03:16 AM
The 1301 beat your shoulder up? It's been pretty successful in the 3 gun world and those guys shoot fast. It and the Remington Versamax are gas guns which will be softer on the shoulder and have done well in 3 gun. If you go with a Benelli the Vinci is a newer design. Mine feels noticeably softer than the M2 I had running the same loads. It'll be hard to beat a Benelli for reliability with it's inertia operated action but they aren't as soft shooting as the gas guns and have to have a certain power level of shell to even work. My Vinci will shoot the low recoil buck and slugs but I doubt it would go any lighter than a 1oz load at 1145 FPS. The comfortech stocks on the Benellis do help with the real heavy loads but I'm not real sure they do much with bird loads. I'm sad to say that the Italian Beretta and Benelli shotguns are head and shoulders above anything American made I've seen when it comes to build quality. If it were me I'd look hard at the 1301 again or go to a Benelli Vinci.

I'd avoid versamax. Everyone on the vm forums is trying to replace the guts with benelli parts that fit. Remington is not known for holding up.

peterb
12-17-2017, 06:13 AM
If the goal is just low-cost shotgun fun, I'd buy a decent used Wingmaster, put a good recoil pad on it, and shoot light target loads. An extra 18.5" barrel is an easy and inexpensive swap for the "tactical"/HD role.

For semi-autos, Remington 1100s and the Beretta 300-series used to be standards in the clay target world. There are a lot of good used ones out there.

JAD
12-17-2017, 07:08 AM
Your experience is not unlike mine, and my world changed when I took a class from Rob Haught.

You do describe a good reason to buy an A5, though.

GJM
12-17-2017, 07:55 AM
If I wanted a dual, hunting and defense set-up, I would get a Benelli M2 26 inch, with the shorter youth LOP Comfortech stock, and then source a shorter barrel and add an Aimpoint S1 on the rib. Now you have a perfect shotgun to hunt and bust clays, and a shorter defensive barrel with a dot. Since the S1 mounts to the rib, you can easily switch barrels and keep zero.

Hambo
12-17-2017, 08:16 AM
I have never liked shotguns, especially 12 ga.


I am admittedly a recoil weenie.

M2 20ga gauge for hunting/clays; M2 Tactical (with GJM comfortech stock) 12ga with low recoil slugs/buck for defense.

Doc_Glock
12-17-2017, 09:33 AM
M2 20ga gauge for hunting/clays; M2 Tactical (with GJM comfortech stock) 12ga with low recoil slugs/buck for defense.

This sounds like the ticket. That way the defensive one can be set up with sling, optic and light.

I assume since they are M2 models they both load and fire identically except for ammunition, recoil, etc.

GJM
12-17-2017, 09:38 AM
In 20 gauge, the M2 24 inch barrels comes with the shorter LOP Comfortech stock option. 12 and 20 function the same. M2 Tactical is 18 inch barrel and drilled to take the Scalarworks mount and T2 over the action. You do loose the shorter LOP stock, though, and that stock is crazy expensive to buy as a part.

StraitR
12-17-2017, 11:49 AM
If I wanted a dual, hunting and defense set-up, I would get a Benelli M2 26 inch, with the shorter youth LOP Comfortech stock, and then source a shorter barrel and add an Aimpoint S1 on the rib. Now you have a perfect shotgun to hunt and bust clays, and a shorter defensive barrel with a dot. Since the S1 mounts to the rib, you can easily switch barrels and keep zero.


^^^ This would be my approach if I wanted to shoot clays for fun and have that weapons handling and shooting transfer 1 to 1 to my defensive shotgun.

The issues I see with buying one 20g and one 12g M2 are...

Cost - $2500+ worth of base shotguns.
Desired Training value - The size and weight differences between the two are noticeable. While the MOA is identical, the feel is not, so reps with the smaller lighter weight 20g will not necessarily transfer 1 to 1 to your defensive 12g.
Ammo - Having to source and keep two types of ammo. IME, 20g targat/clay ammo is more expensive and harder to find, at least in my area.
Chokes & Parts/Accessories - Should you want aftermarket chokes, they will not interchange. Nice ones are not cheap. Trigger parts, stocks (compact Comfortech for 12g will run $400). Mag tube extensions, small parts, etc, etc are not cross compatible.

The cost of the two gun option would be exponentially more at a decreased training value, which seems to be the point of having the same gun for both. Even better/cheaper, just buy and set up the M2 of your choosing for defense and then use it for clay sports.

Doc_Glock
12-17-2017, 12:22 PM
In 20 gauge, the M2 24 inch barrels comes with the shorter LOP Comfortech stock option. 12 and 20 function the same. M2 Tactical is 18 inch barrel and drilled to take the Scalarworks mount and T2 over the action. You do loose the shorter LOP stock, though, and that stock is crazy expensive to buy as a part.

So better to use the 12 ga M2 field model with Comfortech and source the shorter barrel as you said;)

Doc_Glock
12-17-2017, 12:28 PM
Even better/cheaper, just buy and set up the M2 of your choosing for defense and then use it for clay sports.

I am not opposed to that, but in my limited experience I can’t seem to hit anything thrown with an 18” tactical shot gun compared to an old 26” barreled pump.

I am not sure if this is simply a skill issue or choke or something else? Does 8” in barrel make that huge a difference in aiming and pattern?

Hambo
12-17-2017, 12:59 PM
Length and weight change how it swings, choke changes the pattern.

ranger
12-17-2017, 01:42 PM
Enel, when you speak of killing clays - are you talking breaking a few clays in a field for fun or are you talking formal competition like Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays? If you become serious shooting the clay sports - those shotguns can be very specific to the sport and quite different from "tactical" or HD shotguns.

TCinVA
12-17-2017, 02:45 PM
I have never liked shotguns, especially 12 ga. That being said, I used an old heavy pump this past weekend to shoot flung clays, and dang if it wasn't a huge amount of fun and I didn't feel beat up from it at all. It was fun to try to keep up with the loading from a pocket of shells as well. Must have been the combination of heavy shotgun and light loads. The few tactical shotguns (mossberg 500, and Beretta 1301) I have tried left me sour on the platform.

You shot a pump gun and liked it, and shot a 1301 and didn't.

So the answer seems simple: Go to Gunbroker and buy yourself a pretty Wingmaster to shoot clays with, and another 870 you can set up a little differently for home defense.

TCinVA
12-17-2017, 02:50 PM
I think the issue with the 1301 is it is so dang light it beats me up. They run well.

The 1301 tends to have very soft recoil for a 12 gauge...lighter felt recoil than most pump guns, I'm afraid.

That gun you were using to bust clays may well have been weighted and/or using specially tailored loads to offer minimal felt recoil. You will likely experience considerably more recoil using a non-weighted gun or more potent ammo.

But there is good news: you can use reduced recoil loads for defense, too. I tried some Remington reduced recoil ammo this week and it is the softest shooting 12 gauge load I've ever tried...but it's effective and was actually a duty load for USBP. That load in an 870 is a genuine pussy cat on the shooting end, but still devastatingly effective on the shootee end.

I'm ordering some so I can test it out in my 1301. So far my 1301 shotguns have cycled everything but that Remington load shoots so soft I'm not entirely sure it will cycle in the 1301.

Of course, the real method for controlling felt recoil with a shotgun is stance and technique...something most people suck at teaching when they teach shotgun, unfortunately.

Doc_Glock
12-17-2017, 04:43 PM
Enel, when you speak of killing clays - are you talking breaking a few clays in a field for fun or are you talking formal competition like Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays? If you become serious shooting the clay sports - those shotguns can be very specific to the sport and quite different from "tactical" or HD shotguns.

Just fooling around plinking. My wing shooting sucks and it would be fun to practice more.

Doc_Glock
12-17-2017, 04:47 PM
The 1301 tends to have very soft recoil for a 12 gauge...lighter felt recoil than most pump guns, I'm afraid.

That gun you were using to bust clays may well have been weighted and/or using specially tailored loads to offer minimal felt recoil. You will likely experience considerably more recoil using a non-weighted gun or more potent ammo.

But there is good news: you can use reduced recoil loads for defense, too. I tried some Remington reduced recoil ammo this week and it is the softest shooting 12 gauge load I've ever tried...but it's effective and was actually a duty load for USBP. That load in an 870 is a genuine pussy cat on the shooting end, but still devastatingly effective on the shootee end.

I'm ordering some so I can test it out in my 1301. So far my 1301 shotguns have cycled everything but that Remington load shoots so soft I'm not entirely sure it will cycle in the 1301.

Of course, the real method for controlling felt recoil with a shotgun is stance and technique...something most people suck at teaching when they teach shotgun, unfortunately.

Spoiler: I already own a 1301 Tactical. I have shot it a little and found myself preferring the old 60s Sears/JC Higgins pump. I need to take them both out with the same ammo and try them back to back.

Carrying the 1301 is a dream. The shell ejection feature annoys me but it shoots well.

Maybe I just need to commit to regularly shooting the thing for a thousand rounds or so before switching anything.

willie
12-17-2017, 05:00 PM
Bird shot/target/field loads vary from heavy to light. The famous Winchester AA line has the best selection from light to heavy loads. Gas operated semi autos have less perceived recoil than other shotguns becausd they spread out recoil impulse over time. Kick is the same but not delivered all at once. Actual weight of gun itself matters with heavier shotguns seeming to kick less than lighter ones. And then there is stock fit and the recoil pad itself. My advice is buy a 20 gauge for sport shooting. If you really like shotguns after owning and shooting the 20 ga, then buy a 12. You may decide that the 20ga will serve all purposes for you.

holmes168
12-17-2017, 05:45 PM
Spoiler: I already own a 1301 Tactical. I have shot it a little and found myself preferring the old 60s Sears/JC Higgins pump. I need to take them both out with the same ammo and try them back to back.

Carrying the 1301 is a dream. The shell ejection feature annoys me but it shoots well.

Maybe I just need to commit to regularly shooting the thing for a thousand rounds or so before switching anything.

That would have been my question- do you have the time to commit to shoot a new shotgun well. I know you shoot a lot of 9mm and love your Glocks. I keep thinking about a shotgun to buy, then remember I've got a Mossberg I've never fired. I would rather shoot my AR and invest in an AK over a new shotgun. Can't wait to see what you do. Looking forward to the shotgun 2k test!

TCinVA
12-17-2017, 05:58 PM
Spoiler: I already own a 1301 Tactical. I have shot it a little and found myself preferring the old 60s Sears/JC Higgins pump. I need to take them both out with the same ammo and try them back to back.

Carrying the 1301 is a dream. The shell ejection feature annoys me but it shoots well.

Maybe I just need to commit to regularly shooting the thing for a thousand rounds or so before switching anything.

Spending the time to learn the 1301 would certainly be a good idea. I honestly don't hear many complaints about how the 1301 recoils.

The key to running any shotgun well is outlined here:


https://youtu.be/Gq74aiXn1b4


https://youtu.be/er_pvyeuIp8

A good stance with your weight loaded into the gun keeps the gun from pushing you around. Your forward knee should be bent slightly, as that truly loads your weight behind the gun.

Having the butt of the gun welded to your upper body prevents the stock from moving rear-ward to give you the sensation of "kick"...this is a crucial part many people don't understand. Most hold long guns up there rather lightly instead of deliberately pulling the gun back into the upper body. Doing so "welds" it to you and it results in a sensation of push instead of a sensation of "kick".

Push/Pull as outlined above activates the whole of your upper body to control movement of the shotgun and greatly reduces what felt recoil is left after loading your weight into the gun and welding it to your upper body.

With a shotgun we don't need the heaviest load we can shove in the gun. For defensive use even low recoil buckshot is already overkill for our intended purpose. That being said, just using push/pull without the shotgun touching my shoulder I can fire 3" magnum shells and the shotgun barely moves. I'm admittedly muscling the hell out of the gun to achieve that feat (used solely to demonstrate the effectiveness of the technique) but it works. When you combine push/pull with the solid fundamentals of stance and deliberately driving the gun into your shoulder (which puts you halfway to push/pull anyway) you don't have to muscle the hell out of the gun for it to contribute to significantly reducing felt recoil.

Probably the most effective mental picture I can give is to pretend that in the middle the shotgun is made up of that stuff they use to make bungee cords. Your goal is to just stretch that imaginary bungee a couple of inches.

Doc_Glock
12-17-2017, 06:16 PM
Probably the most effective mental picture I can give is to pretend that in the middle the shotgun is made up of that stuff they use to make bungee cords. Your goal is to just stretch that imaginary bungee a couple of inches.

All great info. Do you advocating mounting the gun a little inboard of the shoulder pocket on the pectoral muscle itself? I have seen this suggested for carbine use.

TCinVA
12-17-2017, 06:28 PM
Yes...if you can manage it. The further inboard you run the gun the less felt recoil you will have to contend with. The traditional stock length for shotguns is designed for a 6 foot plus male with a shoulder width slightly bigger than the average 18".

That's not most people, obviously. Hence why top end manufacturers will custom make you a stock based on your measurements. On a defensive gun we're pretty much just happy to get the LOP down from the usual 14" to 12", or as close as possible to it. The 1301's LOP is just over 13".

willie
12-17-2017, 07:00 PM
Jacket/coat thickness is a variable in the length of pull equation. Despite being an obvious fact, I must say that wing shooting requirements differ from tactical needs. I'm a wing shooter who dabbles in the tactical arena. I'm an ok wing shooter who has almost no shotgun tactical qualifications. Now that the sun is setting on pump riot shotguns, I'm completely out of date so will offer no more advice.

Mntneer357
12-18-2017, 09:41 AM
If I wanted a dual, hunting and defense set-up, I would get a Benelli M2 26 inch, with the shorter youth LOP Comfortech stock, and then source a shorter barrel and add an Aimpoint S1 on the rib. Now you have a perfect shotgun to hunt and bust clays, and a shorter defensive barrel with a dot. Since the S1 mounts to the rib, you can easily switch barrels and keep zero.

GJM, as I'm very close to purchasing and M2 Field for the exact purposes you outline above, can I ask why you advocate the shorter LOP Comfortech stock? I've seen the M2 Field Compact but I'm not sure why a shorter length stock would be potentially preferable. (I'm 5'11" with long arms) Also, you prefer the 26-inch barrel to the 28-inch?

Thank you for your time and guidance, sir!

willie
12-18-2017, 10:19 AM
I'll comment while you wait for GJM. The shorter lop works out nicely when heavy coats are worn. Otherwise, if too short, a slip on pad will make up the difference. Tactical shooters have noticed that a shorter lop mounts quickly without grabbing outer garments. The shorter lop is needed for vest wearers. The so-called regular lop is a one size fits all figment of some long dead person's imagination. I have a 35 inch sleeve length. Shorter than standard lop's actually function better for my use.
Also, a shorter lop more easily allows stock placement to be closer to shooter's mid line.

GJM
12-18-2017, 10:44 AM
I'll comment while you wait for GJM. The shorter lop works out nicely when heavy coats are worn. Otherwise, if too short, a slip on pad will make up the difference. Tactical shooters have noticed that a shorter lop mounts quickly without grabbing outer garments. The shorter lop is needed for vest wearers. The so-called regular lop is a one size fits all figment of some long dead person's imagination. I have a 35 inch sleeve length. Shorter than standard lop's actually function better for my use.
Also, a shorter lop more easily allows stock placement to be closer to shooter's mid line.

What he said.

6-1, 35 inch sleeves, and shorter LOP handles much better. This is for slugs/buck as opposed to pure wing shooting.

Doc_Glock
12-22-2017, 02:15 PM
Well I took the 1301 out and practiced general manipulation, single loading, loading from a ready condition (bolt forward, tube full, one in lifter, safety on), and, shooting. And I really liked it! I was shooting the lightest target load I had on hand, and it wasn’t bad at all. I think I previously only shot Magnum loads and some heavier bird load (#6?) through it to kill some roosters.

The combination of light load, winter jacket, push pull, and mounting the stock inboard made shooting it quite pleasant.

I think I favor the Benelli M2 ultimately, but will work with the 1301 for a while to gain some minimal proficiency. Shotguns just function so differently from Carbine and pistol. The Push Pull thing is very much a timing issue and not at all automatic for me at this point.

Thanks all for the tips.

TCinVA
12-23-2017, 12:02 AM
My only warning about Benellis is that they tend to like heavier ammo where the 1301 will run with just about anything.

I'm working on getting my hands on some Remington LE loads (reduced recoil) to see if they will run reliably in my 1301s. Those Remington loads feel as mild as shooting a 5.56 in an 870 so I'm not sure if they have enough oomph to power the 1301's action.

nalesq
12-23-2017, 01:08 AM
My only warning about Benellis is that they tend to like heavier ammo where the 1301 will run with just about anything.

I'm working on getting my hands on some Remington LE loads (reduced recoil) to see if they will run reliably in my 1301s. Those Remington loads feel as mild as shooting a 5.56 in an 870 so I'm not sure if they have enough oomph to power the 1301's action.

My 1301 had no trouble cycling a 250 round case of Fiocchi low recoil buckshot, that were indeed so low recoil that they kicked less than el cheapo Federal bulk pack birdshot.

Is Remington low recoil even milder?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

GJM
12-23-2017, 05:57 AM
I see recoil as perhaps being an important consideration in a hunting or competition shotgun, but largely irrelevant in a defensive shotgun that you will likely shoot six or less shots with. I have 14 inch Benelli M2 and M4 shotguns, and far prefer the M2 in the field, as it is so much lighter to carry, even though the extra weight of the M4 makes it softer to shoot.

jellydonut
12-23-2017, 07:25 AM
How is the reliability of the M2 vs the M4? I got an M2 but I still pine for the M4..

Hambo
12-23-2017, 08:03 AM
My only warning about Benellis is that they tend to like heavier ammo

I hear people say this but I've never experienced it. One of mine has a mercury recoil reducer in it and stills shoots light target loads. The real surprise was my SBE2 which runs with everything.

GJM
12-23-2017, 08:28 AM
How is the reliability of the M2 vs the M4? I got an M2 but I still pine for the M4..

Both are reliable.

TCinVA
12-23-2017, 10:28 AM
My 1301 had no trouble cycling a 250 round case of Fiocchi low recoil buckshot, that were indeed so low recoil that they kicked less than el cheapo Federal bulk pack birdshot.

Is Remington low recoil even milder?


Can't say without shooting them side by side. What I can say is that the Remington LE load I used had significantly less felt recoil than Federal's low-recoil flight control loads. It was so mild I thought it was a misfire at first.

Unobtanium
12-23-2017, 06:39 PM
How is the reliability of the M2 vs the M4? I got an M2 but I still pine for the M4..

No experience with the M2, but the M4 is the only platform I've ever owned that I've never had a failure from, unless I was to blame. The failures I have had:

-Shooting very light ammo, such as Fiochi 1oz@1170fps birdshot, I believe it was. Would short-stroke sometimes. Shooting Remington 1-1/8oz 1145fps and shooting Federal Flite Control 8 pellet 1145, it ran fine, if a bit less than "robust".
-Holding it by my hip or 1 handed shooting very light loads.
-Using the OEM 5-shot mag spring in a 7-shot tube using heavy loads, the last shell would cause feeding malfunctions because inertia would keep it half way in the mag-tube and the lifter would jam on it. This was rectified by using a longer spring made for the 7-shot tube.

It also is a heavy gun, if you don't replace the mag tube with Ti, but the sleek form of the accessories really lighten it up. The Scalarworks T1/2 mount is extremely light, actually saving something like 1oz or so over the OEM 1913 rail, until you add the 3oz T2. The IWC light mount is barely over an ounce, and once you take off the OEM hardware and mount an M300C, you've gained a net of only about 4oz.

Unobtanium
12-23-2017, 06:40 PM
Can't say without shooting them side by side. What I can say is that the Remington LE load I used had significantly less felt recoil than Federal's low-recoil flight control loads. It was so mild I thought it was a misfire at first.

I do know Steve Fisher had issues with the 1301's and low recoil buckshot (Federal FC)in some cases at one of his courses. At first I thought the 1301 was supposed to feed EVERYTHING, but that kindof blew that out of the water.

GJM
12-23-2017, 07:40 PM
No experience with the M2, but the M4 is the only platform I've ever owned that I've never had a failure from, unless I was to blame. The failures I have had:

-Shooting very light ammo, such as Fiochi 1oz@1170fps birdshot, I believe it was. Would short-stroke sometimes. Shooting Remington 1-1/8oz 1145fps and shooting Federal Flite Control 8 pellet 1145, it ran fine, if a bit less than "robust".
-Holding it by my hip or 1 handed shooting very light loads.
-Using the OEM 5-shot mag spring in a 7-shot tube using heavy loads, the last shell would cause feeding malfunctions because inertia would keep it half way in the mag-tube and the lifter would jam on it. This was rectified by using a longer spring made for the 7-shot tube.

It also is a heavy gun, if you don't replace the mag tube with Ti, but the sleek form of the accessories really lighten it up. The Scalarworks T1/2 mount is extremely light, actually saving something like 1oz or so over the OEM 1913 rail, until you add the 3oz T2. The IWC light mount is barely over an ounce, and once you take off the OEM hardware and mount an M300C, you've gained a net of only about 4oz.

Just as a counter point, and to show that any individual unit can have issues, my first M4, an 18 inch, was very unreliable with a range of light and heavy loads. My current one, a 14 inch, has yet to have a stoppage.

StraitR
12-23-2017, 07:48 PM
Given the general functionality and design parameters of semi-automatic firearms (spring weights, gas port sizing, etc), I think expecting any gun to feed EVERYTHING is simply asking too much. There always seems to be some kind of reliability compromise when people travel down that rabbit hole.

Unobtanium
12-23-2017, 07:50 PM
Just as a counter point, and to show that any individual unit can have issues, my first M4, an 18 inch, was very unreliable with a range of light and heavy loads. My current one, a 14 inch, has yet to have a stoppage.

I've owned half a dozen, and they were all the same. That's interesting

StraitR
12-23-2017, 07:52 PM
Just as a counter point, and to show that any individual unit can have issues, my first M4, an 18 inch, was very unreliable with a range of light and heavy loads. My current one, a 14 inch, has yet to have a stoppage.

In my copious amounts of research before buying my M4, I found a report (can't remember where*) of a guy having similar issues with his 18" stock M4. Turns out one of his piston rods was ever so slightly bent. Still moved, but not as freely as it should have. Not sure if that was your issue or not. Agree no manufacturer or gun is immune to issues.

*may have been the archives of the old snipers hide.

JAD
12-23-2017, 08:12 PM
I have seen it demonstrated that M1s can be stopped by vigorous application of the push pull technique. Assuming the M2s would have the same vulnerability I would have to choose an M4 or 1301.

GJM
12-23-2017, 08:37 PM
I have seen it demonstrated that M1s can be stopped by vigorous application of the push pull technique. Assuming the M2s would have the same vulnerability I would have to choose an M4 or 1301.


I am not sure I would call it a vulnerability. The M2 shoots circles around an M4, which is why the M2 is dominant in 3 Gun, and you would have to look hard to find an M4 there. Why do you need to attempt to push/pull vigorously enough to shut a M2 down? I have M2 and M4 14 inch shotguns, and even with Brenneke slugs which are at the far edge of the recoil spectrum, choose an M2 every time to defend my life in the field in AK. Not every technique is applicable to every platform.

jellydonut
12-24-2017, 06:11 PM
I have seen it demonstrated that M1s can be stopped by vigorous application of the push pull technique. Assuming the M2s would have the same vulnerability I would have to choose an M4 or 1301.

Every inertia gun needs to recoil in order to cycle. The same thing would happen if you put the gun in a screw vise and fired.

I'm far too physically weak to stop my M2 from recoiling so I'm not worried about this