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Tabasco
12-16-2017, 05:06 PM
Here are a couple pics of patterns I shot with Federal FliteControl Low Recoil (Tactical) buck and two different shotguns:

1) Remington 870 18" barrel with IC choke:

22380

2) Mossberg 590A1 18" barrel with cyl. choke:

22379

The top pattern in each picture is the FC 8 pellet 00 buck load, the bottom pattern is the FC #1 buck 15 pellet load. All patterns are at 15 yards. The 870 with the IC choke patterns are +- 4 inches, the 590A1 with the cyl. barrel are 2 1/4" for the 8 pellet 00 buck, and 1-1.5" for the 15 pellet #1 buck. The Shoot-n-See targets were placed on thin plywood the wad cannot penetrate. I find this helpful as the wad tends to impact the target pretty close to the pattern, and can obscure the pellet distribution. The smear on the upper target for the 590 is where the wad impacted, FYI. Looks like the wad followed the 590 #1 buck pattern right through the pattern 'hole' as I found no evidence if an impact anywhere else on the plywood. The second small Shoot-n-See target is another #1 buck pattern I shot with the same gun a few month's ago.

Conclusions:

- Mossberg 590 shoots really tight patterns with the FC, especially the #1 buck load.
- A choked barrel grabs the FC wad and separates it from the shot load earlier than a cyl. bore. Even a tight bore might have this effect as well. My 870 with the IC barrel shoots consistently larger patterns than my cylinder bore guns. Still, 4" patterns at 15 yards is still freakin awesome.

The IC choked 870 does seem to shoot slugs more consistently, so it's kind of nice to have.

Note: The #1 buck 870 pattern is missing a pellet as it impacted just off the Shoot-n-See sticker.

Unobtanium
12-17-2017, 04:06 AM
This is my finding as well. Nothing out patterns an overbore/backbore with FC. My benelli shoot 8-12" 25 yard patterns with fc. #1 patterns best.

That Guy
12-17-2017, 10:05 AM
Conclusions:

- Mossberg 590 shoots really tight patterns with the FC

We got some very... interesting results when patterning 00 buck FliteControl rounds with my girlfriends 590.

The round exhibited very (and I mean incredibly) tight patterns out to, if I recall correctly, 15 meters. But on the 20 meter target, only a few of the pellets hit the entire IDPA target. Somewhere within the 5 meters between those two ranges something very weird happens and the shot pattern seems to entirely fall apart.

Granted, we haven't repeated this test very many times (you would not believe how expensive that ammunition is over here... and extremely hard to find as well), but the few rounds we expended all gave the same result.

03RN
12-17-2017, 11:03 AM
Hopefully I'll place these pics in the right order and explain the process I used.

I've been a huge fan of the flight control and versatight loads since they came out. My biggest beef with being issued my Benelli was that the issued buckshot sucked. Half a payload of 00 and the performance of the shotgun was not as awe-inspiring as I had heard.

Now that I can use whatever I want I've been using these types of loads for defense and hunting and have had incredible performance on deer out to about 50 yards.

The Hornady#4 buck in the versatight was has gotten 2 deer at 45 and 50ish yards and has convinced me I'm not lacking anything inside that range. The 9 pellet 00 full power flight control has also performed as well. I only tried the #4 because I was living on the farm and had to chase varmits away from coups from minks to coyotes and everything in between. The more pellets helped with the smaller targets. After seeing the performance on 180lbs deer I have no qualms with fighting with it.

Federal 9 pellet full power at 25 yards. The POA was the chin
22391
I then walked back to 35 yards shot once, 45 yards shot once, then 50 yards with 3 shots as fast as I could pull the trigger with the front sight on the torso
22392

The next set is with Hornadys #4 buck in their wad at 25 yards
22393

35 yards
22394
45
22395
And 50 yards
22396

At the farther distances I'm getting enough flyers that I really need to be paying attention to my surroundings but depending on the situation I would not hesitate to grab one of my Mossbergs for nearly anything I might need a long gun for outside of some hunting.

Tabasco
12-19-2017, 09:55 PM
25 yard patterns, #1 FC Buck 590A1. Both measured +- 6"

22463

Balisong
12-28-2017, 02:48 PM
Hopefully I'll place these pics in the right order and explain the process I used.

I've been a huge fan of the flight control and versatight loads since they came out. My biggest beef with being issued my Benelli was that the issued buckshot sucked. Half a payload of 00 and the performance of the shotgun was not as awe-inspiring as I had heard.

Now that I can use whatever I want I've been using these types of loads for defense and hunting and have had incredible performance on deer out to about 50 yards.

The Hornady#4 buck in the versatight was has gotten 2 deer at 45 and 50ish yards and has convinced me I'm not lacking anything inside that range. The 9 pellet 00 full power flight control has also performed as well. I only tried the #4 because I was living on the farm and had to chase varmits away from coups from minks to coyotes and everything in between. The more pellets helped with the smaller targets. After seeing the performance on 180lbs deer I have no qualms with fighting with it.

Federal 9 pellet full power at 25 yards. The POA was the chin
22391
I then walked back to 35 yards shot once, 45 yards shot once, then 50 yards with 3 shots as fast as I could pull the trigger with the front sight on the torso
22392

The next set is with Hornadys #4 buck in their wad at 25 yards
22393

35 yards
22394
45
22395
And 50 yards
22396

At the farther distances I'm getting enough flyers that I really need to be paying attention to my surroundings but depending on the situation I would not hesitate to grab one of my Mossbergs for nearly anything I might need a long gun for outside of some hunting.

Dude was that shot on the set of Return of the Jedi??? That seriously looks like the same forest on Endor!

But anyways, thanks for sharing the pics and info. I'm curious about the 2 deer you got with #4 Buck Hornady at 45 and 50 yards. Do you happen to know how much penetration those pellets got? And how far did those deer get before dropping? Thanks again for sharing, this subject is very interesting.

03RN
12-28-2017, 08:56 PM
Dude was that shot on the set of Return of the Jedi??? That seriously looks like the same forest on Endor!

But anyways, thanks for sharing the pics and info. I'm curious about the 2 deer you got with #4 Buck Hornady at 45 and 50 yards. Do you happen to know how much penetration those pellets got? And how far did those deer get before dropping? Thanks again for sharing, this subject is very interesting.

Nope, just Rhode Island. (Completely unrelated video showing the same area)
https://youtu.be/Hfh_IhP3IFs

A few a the #4 pellets exited the deer, lots were in between the offside hide and the muscle.

Neither ran far. Both iirc were around 150#

Balisong
12-31-2017, 05:47 PM
Nope, just Rhode Island. (Completely unrelated video showing the same area)
https://youtu.be/Hfh_IhP3IFs

A few a the #4 pellets exited the deer, lots were in between the offside hide and the muscle.

Neither ran far. Both iirc were around 150#

Thanks for the info. The revelation that buckshot is very penetrating is quite new to me, and I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around it. It's baffling that lightweight round lead pellets don't very quickly lose velocity/penetration when hitting something hard. So it's cool to see some real world results of the stuff. I'd like to learn more about buckshot vs slugs penetration and performance. So again, thanks for sharing!

Tabasco
01-15-2018, 04:29 PM
23018

More patterns, this time with an 870 Cyl. 18" barrel. The top Shoot-n-C is an FC 8 pellet load that measures 2" at 15 yards. The bottom is the old Federal Tactical (pre Flite Control) low recoil 9 pellet load, four rounds. That 4 shot pattern measured 14" or so at 15 yards. Pretty consistent with the 1 inch spread for every yard of travel rule for non FC loads. The smear in the middle of that pattern is a #1 Buck Flite Control load that pretty much made one hole like the Mossberg pattern above. The rectangular hole top right is the 8 pellet FC wad. Normally the wad won't penetrate the plywood backing, but this plywood is getting pretty shot up.

Tabasco
01-20-2018, 08:54 PM
Went out today with the same 870 Cyl. barrel combo and some FC #1 and Hornady Critical Defense 00 with the "Versatite" wad. The Hornady performed as expected, a bit larger group than the FC 8 pellet load ( 3+" vs. 2") at 15 yards, but the FC #1 was quite a surprise. First group, same thing as before, one big hole. Moved the target out to 25 yards, one big hole (size of the wad). Tried 3 more rounds, same thing.

I cut a #1 buck FC shell open a month ago and noticed the shot was packed into the wad tight. I had to pry it out with a pointy thing to get it out of the cup. My SWAG is that the Remington barrel I'm using it is a bit looser or smoother than the Mossberg, and the shot is pretty much staying in the wad and acting as a "cut shell" type thing. I'll do some more testing in a couple of days to try to confirm.

Definitely pattern your scatterguns with your chosen load; with shotguns there are lots more variables in play than with a rifle....

Tabasco
01-22-2018, 06:53 PM
Went back to the range today with the same 870/cyl. barrel and another Mossberg. #1 Buck FC worked normal with the Mossberg. With the 870, one hole at 25 yards. Moved the target out to 50 yards, finally a pattern of 3+ inches. The wad seems to be staying with the shot past 25 yards, then separating.

That barrel started life as a 20" imp. cyl. with rifle sights. Sent the shotgun/barrel combo off to Wilson combat for their "Remington Steal" package and had them cut the barrel back to 18" and install a bead on pedestal. Don't know if that has anything to do with it. Normal buckshot patterns as you would expect, 1" spread for every yard, 14-15" at 15 yards.

Tabasco
01-25-2018, 06:51 PM
This is my finding as well. Nothing out patterns an overbore/backbore with FC. My benelli shoot 8-12" 25 yard patterns with fc. #1 patterns best.

Tried my IC choked 870 at 25 yards today, +- 11" with the #1 buck load.

LtDave
02-02-2018, 02:38 PM
Just got a new Beretta 1301 Competition with the 21" barrel and factory choke. Took it out and patterned a few loads today including Federal #1B (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1B) Low Recoil with Flite Control wad (LE132 1B) at 10, 20 & 30 yards:

10 yards, POA was the head "A" zone
23511

20 yards, POA was the "A" in the A zone. First round I fired out of the gun. I think I pulled it right a little.
23512

30 yards, POA was bottom of A zone
23513

Pretty pleased with the results.

Here is a comparison of Winchester #1B (XB121) fired at 10 yards. POA was bottom of "C" zone:
23514.

Hambo
02-02-2018, 03:43 PM
No need for more testing. You're good to go.

LtDave
02-02-2018, 04:06 PM
No need for more testing. You're good to go.

I shot other loads as well. Fiocchi Exacta 00 low recoil nickle plated stuff (1150 fps) patterned well at 10 and 20 yards, extracted but wouldn’t lock the bolt open on the Beretta. I have some of the 1325 fps Exacta buck and am hoping it patterns like the low recoil. Also tried some Hornady Critical Defense 00 8 pellet and #4 Buck Varmit Express with the VersaTite wads. That did ok, but not as nice as the Federal #1.

Unobtanium
02-02-2018, 07:25 PM
I've found federal #1 won't shoot poa for me. It's high and right. Far worse than your "pulled" round above. Slugs and other buck all shoot poa.

Tabasco
02-02-2018, 10:17 PM
I shot other loads as well. Fiocchi Exacta 00 low recoil nickle plated stuff (1150 fps) patterned well at 10 and 20 yards, extracted but wouldn’t lock the bolt open on the Beretta. I have some of the 1325 fps Exacta buck and am hoping it patterns like the low recoil. Also tried some Hornady Critical Defense 00 8 pellet and #4 Buck Varmit Express with the VersaTite wads. That did ok, but not as nice as the Federal #1.

Did you use a choke on the flitecontrol? I get similar results with cylinder, but any constriction opens up the pattern by 1/2 or so.

LtDave
02-03-2018, 08:10 AM
Did you use a choke on the flitecontrol? I get similar results with cylinder, but any constriction opens up the pattern by 1/2 or so.

Whatever comes stock with the Beretta 1301 Competition which has removable chokes. I'm guessing Cylinder or Imp Cylinder.

TCinVA
02-04-2018, 12:34 PM
Went back to the range today with the same 870/cyl. barrel and another Mossberg. #1 Buck FC worked normal with the Mossberg. With the 870, one hole at 25 yards. Moved the target out to 50 yards, finally a pattern of 3+ inches. The wad seems to be staying with the shot past 25 yards, then separating.

That barrel started life as a 20" imp. cyl. with rifle sights. Sent the shotgun/barrel combo off to Wilson combat for their "Remington Steal" package and had them cut the barrel back to 18" and install a bead on pedestal. Don't know if that has anything to do with it. Normal buckshot patterns as you would expect, 1" spread for every yard, 14-15" at 15 yards.

Chopping the barrel 2" shouldn't have made a significant difference...certainly not that significantly.

With the variations in how barrels are made it just seems to me that you got one that just shoots FFC extremely tight. That's certainly the tightest patterning I've ever even heard of. That barrel is a rarity.

LtDave
02-05-2018, 05:10 PM
Shot some more Federal Flite Control buckshot. This time it was LE127 00, the low recoil 9 pellet load out of my stock Benelli Nova with rifle sights. Shot at 10, 20 and 30 yards.
10 yards:
23597
30 yards:
23599
20 yards:
23598

The groups are approximately 1” at 10, 2” at 20 and 5” at 30 yards. I’ll be buying more of this load. Can’t wait to try it in my Berettas.

Unobtanium
02-06-2018, 12:28 AM
Shot some more Federal Flite Control buckshot. This time it was LE127 00, the low recoil 9 pellet load out of my stock Benelli Nova with rifle sights. Shot at 10, 20 and 30 yards.
10 yards:
23597
30 yards:
23599
20 yards:
23598

The groups are approximately 1” at 10, 2” at 20 and 5” at 30 yards. I’ll be buying more of this load. Can’t wait to try it in my Berettas.

Crazy. Seems like I'm the only one FC sucks for. Your 30 yard group looks like my 12-15 yard group from my Benelli SN Tactical smoothbore/no choke.

Hambo
02-06-2018, 07:39 AM
Crazy. Seems like I'm the only one FC sucks for. Your 30 yard group looks like my 12-15 yard group from my Benelli SN Tactical smoothbore/no choke.

This thread shows you that it's a shotgun by shotgun deal. There is no reason chopping a barrel 2" should improve patterns, but it did. My 18.5" beaded 870 barrel shoots like Lt. Dave's Nova. My 18.5" Remington RS barrel doesn't. If you throw down for a Caesar Guerini it will probably pattern predictably, but at the bottom of mass produced shotgun barrels not so much.

LtDave
02-06-2018, 07:48 AM
Crazy. Seems like I'm the only one FC sucks for. Your 30 yard group looks like my 12-15 yard group from my Benelli SN Tactical smoothbore/no choke.

Have you tried any of the Hornady 8 pellet loads with VersaTite wads? They are doing pretty well for me in 4 different guns. The worst 20 yard pattern was 9". Other loads to try are the 8 pellet LE 133/9 pellet LE132 Federal 00. One of those may work for you.

Unobtanium
02-06-2018, 07:54 AM
Have you tried any of the Hornady 8 pellet loads with VersaTite wads? They are doing pretty well for me in 4 different guns. The worst 20 yard pattern was 9". Other loads to try are the 8 pellet LE 133/9 pellet LE132 Federal 00. One of those may work for you.

I've tried every load made with the fc was except the low recoil blue hull hornady le load. The tightest is fc #1, at about 8-12" at 25y, but shoots high and right by 6"

Unobtanium
02-06-2018, 07:55 AM
This thread shows you that it's a shotgun by shotgun deal. There is no reason chopping a barrel 2" should improve patterns, but it did. My 18.5" beaded 870 barrel shoots like Lt. Dave's Nova. My 18.5" Remington RS barrel doesn't. If you throw down for a Caesar Guerini it will probably pattern predictably, but at the bottom of mass produced shotgun barrels not so much.

I just don't get how hammer forged barrels vary so much from gun to gun. The magic of the gauge I suppose.

LtDave
02-06-2018, 09:46 AM
I've tried every load made with the fc was except the low recoil blue hull hornady le load. The tightest is fc #1, at about 8-12" at 25y, but shoots high and right by 6"

Guess it's time for another barrel/gun. :-(
Sometimes you have to nuke it from orbit.

Unobtanium
02-08-2018, 11:12 AM
Here is LE 127 00 vs. LE 133 00 from my Benelli SNT 18.5" CYL, 10 shots of each, at 25 yards. I counted the strikes, but I cannot exclude the possibility that 2 or more pellets travelled through the same hole.

http://i65.tinypic.com/30swyog.jpg

Unobtanium
02-08-2018, 11:21 AM
Guess it's time for another barrel/gun. :-(
Sometimes you have to nuke it from orbit.

Already bought one.

M4 SBS Entry. See if IT patterns decent.

StraitR
04-06-2018, 11:01 AM
I'm looking forward to seeing that ^^^^^.

I patterned Hornady TAP 00 Light Magnum and TAP 00 Reduced Recoil loads yesterday in my Benell M4 with stock Modified mobil choke. The Hornady RR load patterned really well, but won't currently cycle the gun. The LM pattern was about double the size of the RR starting at 10 yards, and I'm thinking the greater velocity of the LM (1600fps*) vs the RR (1100fps*) combined with the Modified choke, is starting to strip the Flight Control/VersaTite wad prematurely causing the LM to open up quicker.

I just placed an order with Trulock for a .725 Cylinder choke to see if that will help with the LM patterns.

StraitR
04-06-2018, 02:54 PM
Since posting above, I went searching for additional information, and found the following two YT videos. In the first, he is testing shotguns for HD purposes against his control, which is a 6.8spc AR. He tests Fed FC 00 and #1 through a CYL bore 870 and also a Benelli M4 with factory Modified choke. My results with Hornady TAP Light Magnum at ten yards were very similar to his at 9 yards. The CYL bore 870 performs considerably better, and he comes to the same conclusion that I have, which is the MOD choke in the Benelli is affecting the FC wad and causing the patterns to open. He states his intention is to purchase a CYL choke for the M4 and try again. Unlike many, he made good on his statement, and does another video testing.

In the follow-up video, he's purchased a CYL choke for the M4, and his patterns are MUCH better, basically matching the CYL 870. I'm hoping for the same positive results, and look forward to getting my Trulock CYL choke.

The videos are long enough that it's easy to skip around and see results. Or, you can just watch the second video as he reviews the target results from both videos.

ETA: I think just comparing how much the wad separates from the pattern in the MOD choke vs the CYL choke is very telling.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viZTFqP92PQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihkFcpL7UME

Unobtanium
04-06-2018, 03:51 PM
I gained 5 yards per choke construction that I went down, using fc and an m4.

Norville
04-08-2018, 04:40 PM
Just adding a data point - 21” 870, IC Remchoke, 10 yards. FC #1 on the left, old school H132 OO on the right. I wish the FC were a little tighter, bit I’ll try a Cylinder choke to see if that makes a difference. Note the wad impacts - FC punching through, traditional bounces off.

25215

Spartan1980
04-08-2018, 04:47 PM
Just adding a data point - 21” 870, IC Remchoke, 10 yards. FC #1 on the left, old school H132 OO on the right. I wish the FC were a little tighter, bit I’ll try a Cylinder choke to see if that makes a difference. Note the wad impacts - FC punching through, traditional bounces off.

25215

The cylinder choke most definitely will make a difference. At 10 yards and under my 590A1 is about the same as shooting slugs with FC. At 25 yards I can keep ALL pellets in the upper A-B zone on a USPSA target. It's mind blowing to me since I started my shooting life with shotguns on dove.

Norville
04-14-2018, 12:30 PM
So I ordered a cylinder choke to try, and some 8 and 9 pellet OO Flite control. The weather is pretty lousy so I just tried the OO at 10 yards, same IC choke. When I can get to the the range for more testing I’ll try the CYL choke.
25404

StraitR
04-14-2018, 03:08 PM
So I received the new Trulock CYL choke for my Benelli M4. Shot more Hornady TAP 00 Light Magnum, and while I totally spaced taking pics due to time constraints, it averaged 7-8" spread at 25 yards, which is definitely better than I was getting with the factory MOD choke. I'll be shooting it again soon, so I'll try to remember to grab some pics at 10-15-25y.

Side note: I saw a POA/POI change from my original 25y zero using Honady TAP LM slugs through the MOD choke. The new CYL choke shot 3" high, so I made the appropriate corrections as I plan to stay with the CYL.

Norville
05-12-2018, 09:29 AM
Finally tried the cylinder choke in the 21” barrel. Definitely tightened up the patterns. It looks like the 8 pellet is still in the wad at 10yards and the 9 and #1 are just released.

26226

Out at 35 yards the results are interesting. 3 rounds of 8 pellet vs 3 rounds of #1. The 8 pellet seems to be 21/24 and the #1 I count 42/45 on the 24” square. The #1 hits above poa with the 8 pellet grouping around it. Have to give some thought to ammo selection after more testing.

26227

.
26228

Unobtanium
10-21-2018, 10:55 AM
I'm looking forward to seeing that ^^^^^.

I patterned Hornady TAP 00 Light Magnum and TAP 00 Reduced Recoil loads yesterday in my Benell M4 with stock Modified mobil choke. The Hornady RR load patterned really well, but won't currently cycle the gun. The LM pattern was about double the size of the RR starting at 10 yards, and I'm thinking the greater velocity of the LM (1600fps*) vs the RR (1100fps*) combined with the Modified choke, is starting to strip the Flight Control/VersaTite wad prematurely causing the LM to open up quicker.

I just placed an order with Trulock for a .725 Cylinder choke to see if that will help with the LM patterns.


https://youtu.be/G_dEAiNCrkk
https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfront.net/211625/4127758/20181018_231002.jpg

Obviously my shooting needs work, but yeah...the weapon works nicely.

JHC
11-25-2018, 01:52 PM
25 yards, confirmed zero of rifle sights on my 18.5" cylinder bore 870 barrel with Truball Deep Penetrator load.

Then checked POI of FFC #1 buck. POA was center of 4x6 card 32715