Current State of O/U Shotguns

[spinmove_]

I’m thinking of taking my current Mossberg 500 and turning it into an 18” HD shotty with the standard light, sling, sights, and Magpul stock/forend accoutrements. As such, I’d like to leave it in that configuration for it’s role and get a sporting/hunting O/U to fill that role.

What are some good options for that which aren’t ridiculously astronomical?


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[Mntneer357]

What is astronomical to one man isn't necessarily to another. To fairly and honestly give suggestions, what kind of budget are you looking at?

To me, $1500 is a healthy chunk of change. I'm saving to pick up a Benelli M2 Field. But, I have friends who own Caesar Guerini Tempios ($3800 give or take) and Beretta DT11s (around $8-10K).

[spinmove_]

That’s right, shotguns can command a rather opulent price range. Let’s say, preferably, under $1,000.


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[Radar Love]

With the caveat that this is only based on my experience working box store gun retail ~2 years back since I don't own an O/U yet (waiting until I graduate and get a "real" job so I can justify the expense...) my run down of the not-ridiculously priced ones:

Beretta Silver Pigeon series (retail ~$2,000): I never sold one of these but they were my favorite to show customers because they oozed traditional old man European charm. The closest I came to selling one involved a customer looking at all 7 we had in inventory, noticing minute errors in the finish, and complaining to my manager. Take away from that is for $2k you're still getting a mass produced gun and it might have tool marks.

Benelli 828 (retail ~$2,200): The young, modern swarthy alternative to the Beretta. Super new (Benelli introduced this model while I was working retail) carbon fiber looking and lightweight, compared to the other O/Us feels like comparing an M14 to an AR-15. Sold many of them because they were the new thing.

Browning Citori (retail ~$2,000, my store had lots of really nice used ones starting at $900 and going up to 10k) I have a soft spot for this model because it was the first shotgun I ever shot clays with as a kid.

There are lots of rebranded Turkish imports (CZ, Stevens, etc) and some of them feel pretty good, but I have a hard time recommending them because they're still the price of a Benelli or Beretta semi-auto. That being said, I would love to hear from someone more knowledgeable on the Turkish imports because they have the potential to be a very good value.

Oh and don't buy a display model unless you get an awesome discount. All of the display models where I worked had were routinely handled idiotically for years by both customers and employees and never cleaned to the point where they all started developing barrel rust from the felt on the display rack.

[txdpd]

You might luck into a used Beretta 686 for $1k, you shouldn't have too much trouble finding a used Citori. What you're going to miss out at your price point is being able to buy a new or used shotgun from a shop that can fit a shotgun to you or start you off with a pretty good match.

[mmc45414]

Entry level O/U is tough.
But used is probably a good option. Some people buy stuff and shoot it a little and it doesn't miraculously improve their ability so they trade for something that might.
Somewhere there is probably a well stocked store that takes trades.
These guys are good:
http://www.jaquas.com/
Even if you are nowhere close their entire new and used inventory is online.

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[Bummy425]

THIS:

These guys are good:
http://www.jaquas.com/
Even if you are nowhere close their entire new and used inventory is online.




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[spinmove_]

Ok, so I must be missing something here. Why are the vast majority of these O/U shotguns so damn expensive? Surely they can’t be that much more expensive to manufacture and build over a pump or semi-auto...


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[mmc45414]

Ok, so I must be missing something here. Why are the vast majority of these O/U shotguns so damn expensive? Surely they can’t be that much more expensive to manufacture and build over a pump or semi-auto...


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingyI agree, and I don't know. You are feeling the same fustrating realization I did.
It really is a low volume product, there is no 500/870 equivalent, even Ruger quit the market, twice.

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[Bummy425]

Go pick up a 686 Beretta Silver Pigeon..... shoot a round of skeet with it and then do the same with any autoloader or pump and you will understand the allure....I have also handled a couple of the Turkish guns and their fit and finish is not even close IMO. You get what you pay for.

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[spinmove_]

Wow, that’s just crazy. I guess you gotta pay to play in that arena. I might have to hold off for a bit then. Might end up being something where I get something like a Browning or a Beretta and it ends up being one of those heirloom pieces.

Looks like Savage is making the Fox SxS again. A grades are going for a “reasonable” $6,000. I see there’s a couple old B grades at my local gun shop for like $525 and under. Thoughts on something like that?


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[Hambo]

Ok, so I must be missing something here. Why are the vast majority of these O/U shotguns so damn expensive? Surely they can’t be that much more expensive to manufacture and build over a pump or semi-auto...

I'm sure they are. The key is how many rounds you can put through one before it's loose as hell or needs rebuilt, or if it can be rebuilt at all. If you go out hunting birds six times a year you'll be fine. If you want to shoot clays every weekend a higher end gun will last much longer, and can be rebuilt.

For the OP, Jaqua's would be a good place to call.

[spinmove_]

I'm sure they are. The key is how many rounds you can put through one before it's loose as hell or needs rebuilt, or if it can be rebuilt at all. If you go out hunting birds six times a year you'll be fine. If you want to shoot clays every weekend a higher end gun will last much longer, and can be rebuilt.

For the OP, Jaqua's would be a good place to call.

We probably do clays at least once a month during the warmer months here in MI, so like April through October. I haven’t been bird hunting yet, but I could see eventually getting into it. Apart from those activities, it won’t get used. But yeah, if that’s the cost of entry, I’ll save up and eventually buy something that can be fit to me and can be rebuilt if necessary.

Until then, maybe I’ll just snag another used Mossberg 500 to use as a clays gun and turn my current one into an HD piece.


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[Hambo]

Unless you're such a diehard Michigan fan that you won't cross the line, you're close enough to Jaqua's to take a trip down there. It's shotgun heaven and unless it's changed you can fondle anything on the rack. You don't need to spend ten grand, but you probably don't want something that breaks open like an old single barrel after two years use.

[Toonces]

Ok, so I must be missing something here. Why are the vast majority of these O/U shotguns so damn expensive? Surely they can’t be that much more expensive to manufacture and build over a pump or semi-auto...


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The fit between the action and barrels on a (good) double barrel requires more precision than found in a pump/auto. Regulation so both barrels hit to POI is a cost not found on single barrel shotguns. Lack of economy of scale. Fit and finish.

I would recommend a used 686, Citori, Winchester 101, or Charles Daly/Miruko over a new production $1000 O/U. Handle both and notice the (lack of) gap between the receiver and barrels on a 686/Citori and a new under $1000 O/U. It's appalling, but a new $1000 O/U is closer in fit/finish to a Glock than an old S&W revolver.

Miruko makes (made?) the Citori, and made the Japanese Winchester 101/6500. They are good guns.

My wife's 20 gauge 686 is everybody's favorite shotgun. People seem to repeatedly shoot it better than their own guns, and makes you look good while doing it.

[Shotgun]

Wow, that’s just crazy. I guess you gotta pay to play in that arena. I might have to hold off for a bit then. Might end up being something where I get something like a Browning or a Beretta and it ends up being one of those heirloom pieces.

Looks like Savage is making the Fox SxS again. A grades are going for a “reasonable” $6,000. I see there’s a couple old B grades at my local gun shop for like $525 and under. Thoughts on something like that?

SxS is elegant for quail and pheasant hunting. It's traditional. But, you do not want a SxS for serious clays shooting. There's a reason competitive clays shooters do not use SxSs. The sight plane is not as good as an O/U or autoloader, and neither is the recoil. If you want one primarily for bird hunting, get one and enjoy it for the purpose for which is was intended - hunting.


I'm sure they are. The key is how many rounds you can put through one before it's loose as hell or needs rebuilt, or if it can be rebuilt at all. If you go out hunting birds six times a year you'll be fine. If you want to shoot clays every weekend a higher end gun will last much longer, and can be rebuilt.


Ok, so I must be missing something here. Why are the vast majority of these O/U shotguns so damn expensive? Surely they can’t be that much more expensive to manufacture and build over a pump or semi-auto...

Hambo has good advice. In answer to your question, they are expensive because they are durable, reliable, and well balanced. Many are also works of art with great attention to fit and finish. It's not unusual for sporting clays/skeet/trap shooters to put 15 to 25 thousand rounds through their shotguns each year. Competitive shooters are often shooting that many registered targets per year, not including practice. The higher end O/Us stand up to that use. And, when they do break, they can be repaired. One does not want to be in the running to win one's class at a shoot, and when the bird is called for, the gun fails to fire for whatever reason. I will add that very, very few use their competition O/Us to hunt with. I have never seen that happen frankly, but I do not want to speak in absolutes. Simply put, competition O/Us are too heavy, and too nice, to be carried around in the field.

You cannot go wrong with getting a used Citori or Silver Pigeon to dip your toe into the O/U water. Both of those shotguns can easily transition between a clays course and a day of hunting. Then, if the bug bites you, you can start looking at more expensive O/Us for clays.

I don't know if you have Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops up in your part of the country. Both of those stores usually have used Citoris and often Silver Pigeons for sale. They also have websites where you can browse used shotguns. Gunbroker.com might lead you to a used Citori in good shape.

[spinmove_]

I’ve got both a Bass Pro as well as a Cabela’s nearby. I’ve got another bigger gun store that’s got some used examples of Beretta and Browning. Might have to go check them out for giggles. Had no idea O/U were superior to SxS for clays. Learn something new everyday.


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[Chuck Whitlock]

I would recommend a used 686, Citori, Winchester 101, or Charles Daly/Miruko over a new production $1000 O/U.

I regret not buying a used Winchester 101 for the then princely sum of $700 many. many moons ago. Shouldering it once told me why it was more expensive.

[mmc45414]

We probably do clays at least once a month during the warmer months here in MI, so like April through October. I haven’t been bird hunting yet, but I could see eventually getting into it. Apart from those activities, it won’t get used. ... Until then, maybe I’ll just snag another used Mossberg 500 to use as a clays gunI would suggest you at least get an auto as a stepping stone. I love my two O/Us but have shot a metric butt load of skeet targets with my Beretta Extreama and a cheap 1100 Synthetic before that. You will still want an O/U someday but if you shoot any skeet or sporting clays with true doubles you will be a lot happier than with a second 500.

ETA: Buds shows an 1187 Sportsman for $453, it would do a lot of what you describe and Remchokes are like $20.
Also ETA: If you want a HD 500 you might as well keep your gun and get one of the HD models instead of adding stuff to yours.

[spinmove_]

I would suggest you at least get an auto as a stepping stone. I love my two O/Us but have shot a metric butt load of skeet targets with my Beretta Extreama and a cheap 1100 Synthetic before that. You will still want an O/U someday but if you shoot any skeet or sporting clays with true doubles you will be a lot happier than with a second 500.

ETA: Buds shows an 1187 Sportsman for $453, it would do a lot of what you describe and Remchokes are like $20.
Also ETA: If you want a HD 500 you might as well keep your gun and get one of the HD models instead of adding stuff to yours.

Yeah, I’ve thought about a semi-auto shotgun. Given Remington’s issues the past decade I’m not sure I want to go with an 1187. So what are my options there that are sub $1,000? Any good used options?

I’ve also thought about just getting a 500 or 590 with Magpul furniture and adding a sling and light.

Keeping the 500 and getting a 500/590 Magpul is probably the most economical way to go. Especially when you consider that a 500 doesn’t have the same Action slide tube assembly as a 590.


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[mmc45414]

Yeah, I’ve thought about a semi-auto shotgun. Given Remington’s issues the past decade I’m not sure I want to go with an 1187.I only said Remington cause it is a known entity and supported and inexpensive. If you are looking at it as a transition you could own it for a while and sell it for a $150 hit instead of $500 hit.
Beretta makes the A300 for ~$600.

I’ve also thought about just getting a 500 or 590 with Magpul furniture and adding a sling and light. Keeping the 500 and getting a 500/590 Magpul is probably the most economical way to go. Especially when you consider that a 500 doesn’t have the same Action slide tube assembly as a 590.Oh yeah, but if you ever go shoot a game where there are true doubles you will be trying to figure it out, not wanting to pump the gun.

[idahojess]

I'm not an over-under expert, but my Franchi instinct 20 gauge has been a good gun for me. It functions fine for hunting, and I don't sweat scratches or anything like that.

I really like using an over-under for upland hunting. It's very easy to clear out, check the barrel for obstructions, carry in an obviously safe fashion on roads, across ditches, etc. I'd stick with a pump or semi auto for waterfowl hunting though. One thing I've realized with my Franchi is that if the gun gets wet I have to take the stock off and get the moisture out of the action, or else it will rust up. Plus, easier to load a pump gun in a blind.

I think one reason over-unders are expensive is that they are like revolvers -- they are like watches on the inside. Pumps, in particular, are much less complicated.

[Jim Watson]

I don't know the current crop, but when I was shooting regulation ATA trap, I tried out a Citori. I decided I preferred the softer recoil of my old gas gun and sold it on. The guy who bought it shot it weekly, sometimes twice weekly for several years. It was pretty nearly worn out, not beyond shooting, but loosening up. So he replaced it. With a new Citori.

A friend looked at this and that for hunting, I let her shoot my few shotguns and some we could borrow. She settled on a Benelli Ultralight. No, it isn't an O/U, but it is death on pheasants. She says that at the start of a day in the field, the guys dismiss her "girlie gun" but after a while, they are interested in "trying it out" instead of their heavier guns.

Most low end O/Us are rather heavy, including Citori. I would look at a 20 gauge for upland hunting.

[spinmove_]

Hmmm...it would seem that Magpul editions of the 500/590 are difficult to find these days. Were they just a limited run? If that’s the case, I might be better off doing the following, in order.

1.) Purchase Magpul SGA stock and 590 action slide tube for 500 and install (already have the MOE 590 forend).

2.) Purchase 18.5” barrel and install 28” barrel for clays.

3.) Purchase 930 and relegate modified 500 for HD duties.


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[idahojess]

Hmmm...it would seem that Magpul editions of the 500/590 are difficult to find these days. Were they just a limited run? If that’s the case, I might be better off doing the following, in order.

1.) Purchase Magpul SGA stock and 590 action slide tube for 500 and install (already have the MOE 590 forend).

2.) Purchase 18.5” barrel and install 28” barrel for clays.

3.) Purchase 930 and relegate modified 500 for HD duties.


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I think option 2 is a good call. Not that there's anything wrong with owning lots of guns, but barrels are so easy to swap on a pump shotgun. And if your mossberg works, you can become more proficient with it, at least while you figure out what you want for a trap gun or a different hunting gun.

[spinmove_]

I think option 2 is a good call. Not that there's anything wrong with owning lots of guns, but barrels are so easy to swap on a pump shotgun. And if your mossberg works, you can become more proficient with it, at least while you figure out what you want for a trap gun or a different hunting gun.

I think you misunderstand my intentions. Option #2 is actually Step #2 of 3 total steps.


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