Let's Talk Shotgun Training

[StraitR]

Hopefully, this can serve as a central thread to discuss any and all shotgun training and related subjects. Feel free to add anything you feel would be beneficial for others to know.

Personally, I'm looking to take a pistol and shotgun class in 2018, now that my schedule allows for such things. I've not done any shotgunning work other than quals in the Navy (mid-late 90's), which was aim at the big blue target off the flight deck and pull the trigger. As such, I'm starting from experiential scratch. My mission and purpose is learning to use the shotgun as a primary HD long arm while traveling with my family.

A few things off the top of my head that I'm curious about, which can serve as a primer for the thread...


Formal training -

What courses have you taken, and how has it benefited your shotgunning?

Who's your shotgun instructor or class bucket list?

Got any classes upcoming?



Personal training -

Are there any quintessential shotgun drills?

Other drill suggestions? Reps?

Suggestions for training at home?



Hardware -

What inert/dummy/training ammo has worked for you?



Again, feel free to share any shotgun training related experience, suggestions, worthy reads/links, or stories. My shotgunning glass is empty, and I'd like to fill it up.

[GyroF-16]

Ok, I’m in... and subscribed.

Much like StraitR, I’ve got no formal training, but would like to get some in the coming year.

I was seduced by the Beretta 1301 thread about 18 months ago, and picked up a 1301T early this year. Been shooting it a little, and slowly making it my own... most recently put a red dot on it.

Ideally, I’d like to take a HiTS class with DB. I’m hoping to find out about a shotgun class that he’s offering with enough lead time to make sure I can attend.

For dummy rounds, I’ve liked these
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JJJ49G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Although admittedly haven’t used them for more than a few sessions of loading, cycling, unloading, topping off, etc.

I’ll be tuned in for the posts of others more knowledgeable than me.

[StraitR]

Thanks. I have the same training ammo, bought from Amazon, but have yet to use it.

DB/Wayne and Tom are my current bucket list for classes next year. Which class will more likely be determined by my location relative to class offerings next year. We'll be traveling out west (hence the shotgun), but won't know exactly where for a couple more months.

[DamonL]

I really want to take a class with Rob Haught.

I would have taken this class, but it was not even close to me.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24852-Rob-Haught-2-Day-Tactical-Shotgun-Class-Dec-9-10-2017-Casa-Grande-AZ

[Hambo]

Thanks. I have the same training ammo, bought from Amazon, but have yet to use it.

DB/Wayne and Tom are my current bucket list for classes next year. Which class will more likely be determined by my location relative to class offerings next year. We'll be traveling out west (hence the shotgun), but won't know exactly where for a couple more months.

Givens will be in Okeechobee in May for a one day class.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Formal training -
Basic police academy - like any other firearms training, meh;
Early 90s - one day shotgun class from LASD/SEB hgh round count but zero emphasis on mounting the gun correctly. NRA L/E instructor course - only a bit better;
'95 - Gunsite 5 day shotgun and L/E shotgun instructor classes, how to correctly set the gun up, mount it, and manipulate it. Getting a shorter stock and learning where to put it & how was huge for my willingness to keep working with the gun. Over time it had a big impact on what my office did with shotguns;
'97 - Awerbuck's 3 day shotgun class, the thinking and moving and projectile selection parts of the problem;
What courses have you taken, and how has it benefited your shotgunning?
00s - Reitz' shotgun class - consistency, two more Bill Jeans / Morrigan shotgun classes;
00s & now teaching the gun (working for or with Awerbuck and later Cain as well) - how to communicate all of the above within a system;
Bucket list? I'd be interested in getting Cain's perspective as a student rather than teaching with him, Fisher's take just because, Wayne & Darryl's course because who wouldn't?
Aside from work, I seem to get one, maybe two shotgun classes a year to teach;

Personal training -
I've been able to shoot a wee bit more skeet & sporting clays, though not with work guns, and both are real good for keeping the gun running & engaging moving targets;

Are there any quintessential shotgun drills?
Dozier drill from "patrol ready" - empty chamber & 4 rds in the magazine. Requires chambering, multiple targets, follow-through, speed reload (plus use of action release & safety based on how you carry);
Near to far transitions via select-slug. While I have not found an incident of it being used to completion, it has value on being able to manipulate the gun;
Awerbuck's moving manequin targets with a ball cap on the bad guy;
The bastardized rolling thunder variant where the shooter is firing different numbers than the one before him - thinking, mounting, manpulating;

Other drill suggestions? Reps?
Patterning, speed work on steel with accountability, working with ones patterns at realistic distances;

Suggestions for training at home?
Dry practice of mounting & manipulations.

Hardware -
Brownell's action proving dummies have been the best, most reliable, longest lasting. Next atre the ST Action Pro, very distantly followed by the really cheap all-plastic orange ones.

[LJP]

I took Tom’s afternoon block of instruction at this year’s Tac Con, will be taking his one day shotgun class next year in VA, and hope to get in DB’s blocks of instruction at next year’s Tac Con. My tax stamp for my SBS should be in any day now (870P). I intend for it to be my go to for home defense purposes (currently a Winchester 1300 Defender with a Vang Comp barrel fills that roll).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StraitR]

Angus McFee Thank you, that was excellent information, and I'll be looking up those drills.




Givens will be in Okeechobee in May for a one day class.

I saw that, but unfortunately, the chances of us being near FL next May are slim. We plan on spending most of our time, if not all of it, from Texas to the west coast.

[Darth_Uno]

I took Suarez HITS Shotgun, a one day class. Instructor was Steve Collins, who is a terrific instructor and I think no longer teaching under Suarez, but he’s in MO so I think FL is out of his area.

It’s a shotgun. You can make your target scenarios as creative as you want, but mostly it’s just controlling the weapon from shot to shot, clearing stoppages, and keeping it fed. Also run a sling and practice transitioning to your sidearm. 3-gun drills for the real world. Shotguns aren’t complicated machines and the range is limited (compared to a rifle), there’s not a whole lot of tricks to it. Stick with fundamentals and work on speed and accuracy.

You could practice loading slugs on the fly but...I never do. Maybe I should.

[JohnO]

Hopefully, this can serve as a central thread to discuss any and all shotgun training and related subjects. Feel free to add anything you feel would be beneficial for others to know.


I asked a SF CIF team leader about shotgun use in his team. This team was highly active and went out on hundreds of hits. His response regarding shotgun use and I'm paraphrasing. "We don't allow it. The shotgun is the king of the battlefield while it has ammo. However I require my guys to stay in the fight longer."

[Wake27]

I asked a SF CIF team leader about shotgun use in his team. This team was highly active and went out on hundreds of hits. His response regarding shotgun use and I'm paraphrasing. "We don't allow it. The shotgun is the king of the battlefield while it has ammo. However I require my guys to stay in the fight longer."

Military and LE have very different views of the shotgun. I know of someone that served in the same position and as far as he was concerned, they were for breaching only. Just different applications.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JohnO]

Military and LE have very different views of the shotgun. I know of someone that served in the same position and as far as he was concerned, they were for breaching only. Just different applications.


Roger, that is why I included the quote. My comment was just shotgun info and not intended to disparage civilian usage.

[Gater]

I haven't taken his class yet (hope to make the VA running), but Tom Given's shotgun DVD is a good place to get started:

http://rangemaster.com/publications/training-dvds/

[That Guy]

Are there any quintessential shotgun drills?


I really like the results my girlfriend has had from shooting a bunch of Bill Drills with her pump action shotgun. Perhaps not so necessary if you have a semi-automatic shotgun, but with a manual action that drill really helps work cycling the action properly. Very easy to set up, too. We use our old IDPA targets and try to keep the birdshot going through the same ragged hole in the target.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[jlw]

Formal Training:

Rangemaster Defensive Shotgun Instructor
Rangemaster Defensive Shotgun (student and AI)
Lund Performance & Consulting (Erik Lund): Performance Shotgun
HiTS (Bolke): One Day Shotgun
Georgia Public Safety Training Center (GPSTC) Firearms Instructor shotgun block
GPSTC Shotgun Instructor (40 hours)
GPSTC Shotgun Skills (24 hours)
FBI Police Firearms Instructor shotgun block
IALEFI Master Instructor shotgun block

------

The Social Shotgun is my favorite platform. I usually teach several shotgun classes per year and will be offering a revamped class soon as I have some new steel ordered.

[David S.]

+1. Rangemaster DVD

Rangemaster Shotgun, May 18 in Okeechobee, FL (https://www.eventbrite.com/e/defensive-shotgun-course-one-day-florida-tickets-35793479260)

[jellydonut]

I asked a SF CIF team leader about shotgun use in his team. This team was highly active and went out on hundreds of hits. His response regarding shotgun use and I'm paraphrasing. "We don't allow it. The shotgun is the king of the battlefield while it has ammo. However I require my guys to stay in the fight longer."

I mean, this only makes sense in terms of what the military gets into, and especially direct action SF types that get into extremely hairy situations and are usually outnumbered. The shotgun just isn't gonna do them much good in those situations.

I think this is high praise, if damning praise, for almost every other application outside of SF DA raids.

[DamonL]

I forgot. A class with Scotty Reitz is on my bucket list, too.

[TCinVA]

Formal training -

What courses have you taken, and how has it benefited your shotgunning?


The most useful was the Rangemaster Shotgun Instructor's course in October of last year.




Who's your shotgun instructor or class bucket list?


Rob Haught and Tom Givens are critical stops on the Shotgun Hajj.

Speaking of Tom, he's teaching shotgun in Culpeper, Va. in April:

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/defensive-shotgun-one-day-tickets-39450606827




Got any classes upcoming?


As a matter of fact, I do:

https://www.fpftraining.com/products/home-defense-shotgun
https://www.fpftraining.com/products/shotgun-skills

As a student I'll be in a class with Rob Haught sometime in 2018.



Personal training -

Are there any quintessential shotgun drills?

Other drill suggestions? Reps?

Suggestions for training at home?


You can do a lot with shotguns using dryfire, so I try to focus range time on things I can't accomplish without the boom, primarily accuracy and recoil control.

I will do relatively simple drills starting chamber empty as that's how I store my shotgun. I practice multiple shots on a single target (recoil control), shooting multiple targets, and shooting multiple shots on multiple targets. An example would be setting up two backers with two bullseyes on each. On the beep I'll shoot 1-3-2-4 and then 1-4-3-2, using emergency reloads as necessary to complete the drill. The ability to use multiple targets is extremely useful as you can work on transitions in live fire.

Apart from stuff like that, you could use "Rolling Thunder" as that works just about everything you need to do with a shotgun.

To me, the key things to practice for the average Joe are:

- Getting the shotgun into action (chambering a round)
- Making multiple accurate shots quickly (which can only be accomplished by using good fundamentals of shooting and recoil control)
- Emergency reloads



Hardware -

What inert/dummy/training ammo has worked for you?


Fiocci makes the best dummy rounds, IMO. I've tried just about everything to this point and so far I'm most pleased with them because the case head seems more durable than other dummy rounds I've used.

The bottom line, though, is that dummies are consumables. Doesn't matter what you use, you will eventually break them. How long they last depends on how much you use them. It's usually the rim that goes, either being flattened (and made almost razor sharp in the process) but the leading edge of the shell can also become deformed and cause the dummy to get stuck in the mag tube or the chamber. AZooms seem like they would last longer but the rims on them get chewed up pretty quickly. Fiocci's dummies are cheap, effective, and readily available.

[Cecil Burch]

I really want to take a class with Rob Haught.

I would have taken this class, but it was not even close to me.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24852-Rob-Haught-2-Day-Tactical-Shotgun-Class-Dec-9-10-2017-Casa-Grande-AZ


It was a phenomenal class. Rob is a truly excellent instructor. Everything he taught was backed up with his reasoning behind it, including any pertinent history. But there was never any "war stories" in class. It was all geared for explanation of specific stuff.

One of the things I enjoyed the most was he gave a 25 round practice CoF that covered all the major components of shotgun work. Easy to do at practically any range, and quick to run through. It showed me how much thought he put into his teaching, as well as how much experience he actually has in teaching this material to people.

I am looking for any more chances to train with him.

[Cecil Burch]

Fiocci makes the best dummy rounds, IMO. I've tried just about everything to this point and so far I'm most pleased with them because the case head seems more durable than other dummy rounds I've used.

The bottom line, though, is that dummies are consumables. Doesn't matter what you use, you will eventually break them. How long they last depends on how much you use them. It's usually the rim that goes, either being flattened (and made almost razor sharp in the process) but the leading edge of the shell can also become deformed and cause the dummy to get stuck in the mag tube or the chamber. AZooms seem like they would last longer but the rims on them get chewed up pretty quickly. Fiocci's dummies are cheap, effective, and readily available.


I really like Brownells' Dummies. They are weighted properly and seem durable as hell. My only complaint is that they look at a quick glance like real ammo. It seems ridiculously stupid to me to not color them differently in an obvious way.

[Dagga Boy]

Let's see.....

Started with a guy from SEAL Team 5 getting all the stuff they were getting from John Shaw at MISS
Police Academy....I was a shooter so I spent many lunches shooting shotgun with our FBI SWAT instructor that worked with the Academy range staff
In Service training
LAPD "D" Platoon with Larry Mudgett, Ralph Morton, Scotty Reitz and John Helms from SIS (This was hugely influential)
POST Firearms Instructor
SIG Academy Shotgun Instructor (40 hours)
GSGI Shotgun (all SEAL's)
NRA LE Shotgun Instructor (44 hours)
Bill Jeans Shotgun
Rob Haught....twice
ITTS with Scott Reitz
Also shot a lot with Michael Harries (API Staff) in SoCal and competitively in LE matches, and 3 Gun.

I am sure there are others I forgot to list. Done thousands of high risk searches and operations with the 12ga. Shot a carjacker with one. Also operationally killed a street light with a Brenneke. I've taught a ton of it. It is REALLY my thing for long guns. The Internet thinks I am antiquated, which is probably true, but I will still take a shotgun over just about anything for a majority of situations I will likely ever need a gun for.

[HCM]

Roger, that is why I included the quote. My comment was just shotgun info and not intended to disparage civilian usage.

In addition to breaching, the shotgun sees use in military roles which more closely mirror civilian / LE use such as Navy / Marine security details and ship defense parties.

[StraitR]

Let's see.....

Started with a guy from SEAL Team 5 getting all the stuff they were getting from John Shaw at MISS
Police Academy....I was a shooter so I spent many lunches shooting shotgun with our FBI SWAT instructor that worked with the Academy range staff
In Service training
LAPD "D" Platoon with Larry Mudgett, Ralph Morton, Scotty Reitz and John Helms from SIS (This was hugely influential)
POST Firearms Instructor
SIG Academy Shotgun Instructor (40 hours)
GSGI Shotgun (all SEAL's)
NRA LE Shotgun Instructor (44 hours)
Bill Jeans Shotgun
Rob Haught....twice
ITTS with Scott Reitz
Also shot a lot with Michael Harries (API Staff) in SoCal and competitively in LE matches, and 3 Gun.

I am sure there are others I forgot to list. Done thousands of high risk searches and operations with the 12ga. Shot a carjacker with one. Also operationally killed a street light with a Brenneke. I've taught a ton of it. It is REALLY my thing for long guns. The Internet thinks I am antiquated, which is probably true, but I will still take a shotgun over just about anything for a majority of situations I will likely ever need a gun for.

DB, you are my shotgun bucket list. I hope we end up in or close to Texas on our first contract, because I'm driving to you for an edjamacation and that dinner at Hard 8.

[MVS]

.
LAPD "D" Platoon with Larry Mudgett, Ralph Morton, Scotty Reitz and John Helms from SIS (This was hugely influential)
.
..

Hate to sound like a dorky fan boy, but that is just super cool!

[43Under]

Only formal training was with Ben DeWalt of Onsight Firearms Training Spring 2017.

In 2018, already signed up for Givens' one day class in VA.

Bucket list would be Dagga Boy and I'd definitely do TCinVA's course(s).

I used the A-zoom snap caps for dry work/manipulations at home. No fancy drills I do at the range (I literally have to go to one range that ONLY allows 00 buck and a completely different range to shoot slugs!).

[Unobtanium]

What gear is needed to participate effectively in a shotgun class?

All I have seen listed is dummy rounds.

Shotgun is obvious. Sling is likely.

Dump pouch? Stripper deals for the belt to hold shells? Side saddle? Bandoleer? Pt belt?

Seriously, what all does one NEED before a quality class? I don't want to buy useless shit that I dump later, but in also don want to show up without necessary learning tools.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

What gear is needed to participate effectively in a shotgun class?

All I have seen listed is dummy rounds.

Shotgun is obvious. Sling is likely.

Dump pouch? Stripper deals for the belt to hold shells? Side saddle? Bandoleer? Pt belt?

Seriously, what all does one NEED before a quality class? I don't want to buy useless shit that I dump later, but in also don want to show up without necessary learning tools.

Sling is a must IMO as is a side saddle but since my Aug. tuneup w/ DB, I replaced my SS w/ an Aridus universal carrier (w/ 3 spares) & feel GTG w/ this.

50/50 on a dump pouch as I use the cargo pocket on my BDU’s for spare shells to feed the spares or just to top off my gauge.

Slight lane veer but since my 1st SG class w/ DB in 2014 the only other men I’d liked to catch are Scott & Rob, as I started w/ Clint Smith in 1999ish & caught Tom a few yrs ago. Def. wish I was as fortunate as GJM & could have caught Louie Awerbuck as he did but feel VERY fortunate to have Casanova (aka DB) nearby & the superb facility he & Wayne use.

[HopetonBrown]

What gear is needed to participate effectively in a shotgun class?

All I have seen listed is dummy rounds.

Shotgun is obvious. Sling is likely.

Dump pouch? Stripper deals for the belt to hold shells? Side saddle? Bandoleer? Pt belt?

Seriously, what all does one NEED before a quality class? I don't want to buy useless shit that I dump later, but in also don want to show up without necessary learning tools.I used an SOE 12 gauge micro rig, half a dozen velcro shell cards, Extreme Gear Labs dump pouch and BFG padded VCAS sling in classes with Rob Haught and Louis Awerbuck. I was happy with them.

[David S.]

What gear is needed to participate effectively in a shotgun class?

Probably instructor dependent. See list of required items. I've taken DB's class twice. That's it. The biggest thing to learn is feeding the beast.

My only shotgun context is home defense. As with all home defense, you'll probably be going to "your war" with what you have on/in the gun, so that's all I brought. I recognize that the dump pouch wont be there if I ever use this thing for realzies. The (not required) dump pouch is super helpful for keeping up with the flow.

The first time I attended, I brought:
-18"(I think) 870 with an extended tube. Bead sight. I added Magpul forward sling mount for a two point sling.
-dump pouch.
-required ammo.

The next year, Same stuff, plus:
-Magpul SGA, primarily because the shotgun flopped around when slung from factory point. Big improvement over factory
-VC Big Dome Safety. Big improvement over factory
-IFAK, because I took a medical class.

Next year, Same stuff, plus:
-forward mounted RDS.
-sidesaddle.
-Fab defense forend (https://www.amazon.com/PR-870-Quality-Excellent-Performance-Popular/dp/B0044QWGE4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505790015&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=fab+defense+870+forend) on JLW's recommendation. X300u.
We'll see how that goes.

I think there's some value in training with a KISS shotgun before adding RDS, side saddle, etc.

[P.E. Kelley]

Let's see.....

Started with a guy from SEAL Team 5 getting all the stuff they were getting from John Shaw at MISS
Police Academy....I was a shooter so I spent many lunches shooting shotgun with our FBI SWAT instructor that worked with the Academy range staff
In Service training
LAPD "D" Platoon with Larry Mudgett, Ralph Morton, Scotty Reitz and John Helms from SIS (This was hugely influential)
POST Firearms Instructor
SIG Academy Shotgun Instructor (40 hours)
GSGI Shotgun (all SEAL's)
NRA LE Shotgun Instructor (44 hours)
Bill Jeans Shotgun
Rob Haught....twice
ITTS with Scott Reitz
Also shot a lot with Michael Harries (API Staff) in SoCal and competitively in LE matches, and 3 Gun.

I am sure there are others I forgot to list. Done thousands of high risk searches and operations with the 12ga. Shot a carjacker with one. Also operationally killed a street light with a Brenneke. I've taught a ton of it. It is REALLY my thing for long guns. The Internet thinks I am antiquated, which is probably true, but I will still take a shotgun over just about anything for a majority of situations I will likely ever need a gun for.

FWIW I have never taken a shooting class, but you are on the top of the list if I were to take one on the last great Power Tool.

[Unobtanium]

Probably instructor dependent. See list of required items. I've taken DB's class twice. That's it. The biggest thing to learn is feeding the beast.

My only shotgun context is home defense. As with all home defense, you'll probably be going to "your war" with what you have on/in the gun, so that's all I brought. I recognize that the dump pouch wont be there if I ever use this thing for realzies. The (not required) dump pouch is super helpful for keeping up with the flow.

The first time I attended, I brought:
-18"(I think) 870 with an extended tube. Bead sight. I added Magpul forward sling mount for a two point sling.
-dump pouch.
-required ammo.

The next year, Same stuff, plus:
-Magpul SGA, primarily because the shotgun flopped around when slung from factory point. Big improvement over factory
-VC Big Dome Safety. Big improvement over factory
-IFAK, because I took a medical class.

Next year, Same stuff, plus:
-forward mounted RDS.
-sidesaddle.
-Fab defense forend (https://www.amazon.com/PR-870-Quality-Excellent-Performance-Popular/dp/B0044QWGE4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505790015&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=fab+defense+870+forend) on JLW's recommendation. X300u.
We'll see how that goes.

I think there's some value in training with a KISS shotgun before adding RDS, side saddle, etc.

My thing is this. I know what I like for fun. But for a serious shotgun, I have no experience. I remember my first carbine.

14.5 pinned noveske switchblock monolithic vis.
Trijicon 1.5 mini acog
Surefire full-size can
Surefire scout m300


I loved playing with it at the range, but actual vtac courses saw that gun radically change, and ultimately be sold off. Skipping that financial aspect of the learning process is not an undesirable thing nowdays.

[Unobtanium]

Of all the wonderful options available, who should be my choice for a class?

Assume it may be the only shotgun class I ever take.
The closer it is to southern MO the better, but I'm willing to drove up to 12 hours.
If in drive 12 hours, it needs to be a 3+ day event. I'm not about to drive 24 hours total for 10 hours of instruction, unless it's deemed that this 10 hours is better than any 30 hours from another instructor.
I have taken Frank Proctor performance pistol, Craig Douglas AMIS, VTAC carbine 1.5, street fighter, and night fighter. That is the extent of my formal training.

[ranger]

I took one formal class with Lund Performance & Consulting (Erik Lund): Performance Shotgun. It was a one day event - I learned a lot. Would love to take another one day shotgun class from Erik. Never got into 3 Gun but the shotgun phase of 3 Gun seems dominated by reloading not shooting - that was a "clue" to me about shotgun training and the importance of reloading skills.

[Dagga Boy]

A few things I have learned from three decades as both a student and instructor of the Thunderstick.

For a majority of folks who are not serious dedicated shotgun users, anything more than a two day class is too much. I have gotten by far he best results and the most learning occurring with a solid one day course. My dream way of teaching the 12ga. Is with multiple one day courses that build over time. From a pure Basic to an Offensive use based class. That way guns and skills improve and change in a pace consistent with long term retention.

The shotgun in practical use is a manipulations and tactics based thing more than a marksmanship based thing if the gun fits and you have a good understanding of consistently mounting the gun. After that, it's a running the gun thing.

My future plans when I retire again will be teaching defensive/offensive shotgun exclusively on the road, and focused on places where folks are heavily restricted on carbine and over semi auto centerfire weapons use. It is really my niche and my lane, so I am going to stick to it. It is one area where I know there are very few folks in this country who have an experience base balance of extensive field use, understanding of legalities, and teaching the gun along with a true understanding of how they work in the field. Most of the folks who are real experts (both with field experience and teaching) are retiring, so it is a good fit for me.
I'love be doing my first forays at Tac Con his year with both a classroom lecture and a range class on the Offensive use of the shotgun which is very different from its traditional role.

[David S.]

Of all the wonderful options available, who should be my choice for a class?

Assume it may be the only shotgun class I ever take.
The closer it is to southern MO the better, but I'm willing to drove up to 12 hours.
If in drive 12 hours, it needs to be a 3+ day event. I'm not about to drive 24 hours total for 10 hours of instruction, unless it's deemed that this 10 hours is better than any 30 hours from another instructor.
I have taken Frank Proctor performance pistol, Craig Douglas AMIS, VTAC carbine 1.5, street fighter, and night fighter. That is the extent of my formal training.
Shameless self promotion (http://firearmstraininghub.com/menu/other-long-guns/shotgun/).

Early next year I see Ernest Langdon in OKC, Steve Fisher in Dover, TN, and Tom Givens Shotgun Instructor Dev in Nashville.

I added Rangemaster Instructor Development. I took Tom's Handgun ID course this year. There were several students attending it as their first formal training. If you're interested, it may be worth asking Tom.

[TCinVA]

Of all the wonderful options available, who should be my choice for a class?

Assume it may be the only shotgun class I ever take.
The closer it is to southern MO the better, but I'm willing to drove up to 12 hours.
If in drive 12 hours, it needs to be a 3+ day event. I'm not about to drive 24 hours total for 10 hours of instruction, unless it's deemed that this 10 hours is better than any 30 hours from another instructor.
I have taken Frank Proctor performance pistol, Craig Douglas AMIS, VTAC carbine 1.5, street fighter, and night fighter. That is the extent of my formal training.

A 2 day Rob Haught class would be worthwhile for your needs.

Tom's 3 day instructor development class is great, but it assumes you have been through the standard instructor development class first.

[Cecil Burch]

What gear is needed to participate effectively in a shotgun class?

All I have seen listed is dummy rounds.

Shotgun is obvious. Sling is likely.

Dump pouch? Stripper deals for the belt to hold shells? Side saddle? Bandoleer? Pt belt?

Seriously, what all does one NEED before a quality class? I don't want to buy useless shit that I dump later, but in also don want to show up without necessary learning tools.


I ran through Rob's class with a side saddle on one 500, and an old Milt Sparks butt cuff on another. I also had a two shell belt carrier from Wilderness that was nice for secondary reloads. For more ammo, I just threw it in my pockets and reloaded the side saddle or butt cuff between drills. I had a sling on one gun, and no sling on the other. From the two classes I have been to (Rob. and Chris Fry), the sling is useful for holding onto the gun while standing around talking/listening to the instructor, and absolutely no use outside of that. It was a minor annoyance to have to hold my non-sling Mossberg during instructional portions, but not that big a deal. That was it for gear.

I saw a few guys using RDs, and some with more tactical ammo carriers like the Aridus side carrier, or the 3-gun style belt carriers, and a couple of dump pouches. None of them seemed to be a make or break thing. From what I have seen. if you have a quality shotgun, decent ammo (DO NOT get the cheapo WallyWorld special), and one way to carry ammo (either side saddle, butt cuff, or a single belt carrier of some kind, you will be good to go. Add an inexpensive sling (if you don't already have one) for convenience's sake, and you will get through a class just fine.

which just goes to show another benefit of shotgun classes - it has the lowest level of gear requirements of any firearms course I have been to.

[Unobtanium]

A few things I have learned from three decades as both a student and instructor of the Thunderstick.

For a majority of folks who are not serious dedicated shotgun users, anything more than a two day class is too much. I have gotten by far he best results and the most learning occurring with a solid one day course. My dream way of teaching the 12ga. Is with multiple one day courses that build over time. From a pure Basic to an Offensive use based class. That way guns and skills improve and change in a pace consistent with long term retention.

The shotgun in practical use is a manipulations and tactics based thing more than a marksmanship based thing if the gun fits and you have a good understanding of consistently mounting the gun. After that, it's a running the gun thing.

My future plans when I retire again will be teaching defensive/offensive shotgun exclusively on the road, and focused on places where folks are heavily restricted on carbine and over semi auto centerfire weapons use. It is really my niche and my lane, so I am going to stick to it. It is one area where I know there are very few folks in this country who have an experience base balance of extensive field use, understanding of legalities, and teaching the gun along with a true understanding of how they work in the field. Most of the folks who are real experts (both with field experience and teaching) are retiring, so it is a good fit for me.
I'love be doing my first forays at Tac Con his year with both a classroom lecture and a range class on the Offensive use of the shotgun which is very different from its traditional role.

Where are you located in TX? I drive to San Antonio often enough, are you somewhere near there? I am unsure based on your post, but will you be teaching any shotgun courses in your area this coming year?

[Unobtanium]

A 2 day Rob Haught class would be worthwhile for your needs.

Tom's 3 day instructor development class is great, but it assumes you have been through the standard instructor development class first.

Thank-you. I have reached out to Rob Haught. I do not want to hold up Tom's course, if it is meant for someone at a different place than myself, and think it would be rude to apply for it. Thanks again!

[Cecil Burch]

Where are you located in TX? I drive to San Antonio often enough, are you somewhere near there? I am unsure based on your post, but will you be teaching any shotgun courses in your area this coming year?

He's based out of Dallas.

http://www.hardwiredtacticalshooting.com/

[Unobtanium]

I ran through Rob's class with a side saddle on one 500, and an old Milt Sparks butt cuff on another. I also had a two shell belt carrier from Wilderness that was nice for secondary reloads. For more ammo, I just threw it in my pockets and reloaded the side saddle or butt cuff between drills. I had a sling on one gun, and no sling on the other. From the two classes I have been to (Rob. and Chris Fry), the sling is useful for holding onto the gun while standing around talking/listening to the instructor, and absolutely no use outside of that. It was a minor annoyance to have to hold my non-sling Mossberg during instructional portions, but not that big a deal. That was it for gear.

I saw a few guys using RDs, and some with more tactical ammo carriers like the Aridus side carrier, or the 3-gun style belt carriers, and a couple of dump pouches. None of them seemed to be a make or break thing. From what I have seen. if you have a quality shotgun, decent ammo (DO NOT get the cheapo WallyWorld special), and one way to carry ammo (either side saddle, butt cuff, or a single belt carrier of some kind, you will be good to go. Add an inexpensive sling (if you don't already have one) for convenience's sake, and you will get through a class just fine.

which just goes to show another benefit of shotgun classes - it has the lowest level of gear requirements of any firearms course I have been to.

I would be attending the course with my Supernova Tactical using a +1 or 2 Nordic extension, Ghost ring sights, and whatever "ammunition transport/feeding" accessory someone talks me into getting between now and then. Are pistols used in shotgun classes the way they are used in carbine classes, or should I not?

My use of t he shotgun is as a "truck gun", and as a home defense weapon. I do not want to learn how to breach doors, run a team environment security drill, etc. While those things are sexy and cool, I want to learn:

How to mitigate recoil better.
How to manipulate the weapon better, and drills I can do at home to KEEP that going.
How to begin building the mental awareness/memory type skill-set of "keeping it fed" since it's so low-capacity compared to other weapons I use.

To have a good, fun, safe time. The social aspect of these classes is very enjoyable for me, as well, and I like meeting new people that become friends that broaden my horizons.

[Unobtanium]

He's based out of Dallas.

http://www.hardwiredtacticalshooting.com/

Right on the way. I will look into this. Thank-you for the link!

[That Guy]

One of the things I enjoyed the most was he gave a 25 round practice CoF that covered all the major components of shotgun work. Easy to do at practically any range, and quick to run through.

Are you able to share it with us? Or is it only for people who attend his classes?

My only formal education on the shotgun is what little the military saw fit to teach me, and a quality shotgun class (outside a dedicated gun games class) is something I am least likely to ever encounter during my life. Every opportunity for remote learning is much appreciated.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[jlw]

Regarding slings:

On "home shotguns", I have the Magpul single point sling adapter. When I am home, I simply disconnect the sling. Storage is easier, and if I have to grab it and move through the house, I don't have anything dangling off of the gun. If I want to use the gun in a class or take it on a call, I simply attach the single point.

My Beneli M1 only gets used in classes or for dedicated social purposes. I run a 2-point sling on it and sling it across the body.

[Cecil Burch]

Are you able to share it with us? Or is it only for people who attend his classes?

My only formal education on the shotgun is what little the military saw fit to teach me, and a quality shotgun class (outside a dedicated gun games class) is something I am least likely to ever encounter during my life. Every opportunity for remote learning is much appreciated.



Rob never said it was proprietary info, but he never said it wasn't either. And since I have never seen a " homework" CoF (for the shotgun that is) like it before, I am going to treat it like it is Rob's, and I would feel better about not publishing it without his permission.

I will be talking to him in the next week or so and I will ask him if he is cool with writing it out here. If he says yes, I will jump back on right away.

[HopetonBrown]

We did shotgun to pistol transitions on day 2. I'd bring a 2nd shotty just in case.

[DamonL]

A few things I have learned from three decades as both a student and instructor of the Thunderstick.

For a majority of folks who are not serious dedicated shotgun users, anything more than a two day class is too much. I have gotten by far he best results and the most learning occurring with a solid one day course. My dream way of teaching the 12ga. Is with multiple one day courses that build over time. From a pure Basic to an Offensive use based class. That way guns and skills improve and change in a pace consistent with long term retention.

The shotgun in practical use is a manipulations and tactics based thing more than a marksmanship based thing if the gun fits and you have a good understanding of consistently mounting the gun. After that, it's a running the gun thing.

My future plans when I retire again will be teaching defensive/offensive shotgun exclusively on the road, and focused on places where folks are heavily restricted on carbine and over semi auto centerfire weapons use. It is really my niche and my lane, so I am going to stick to it. It is one area where I know there are very few folks in this country who have an experience base balance of extensive field use, understanding of legalities, and teaching the gun along with a true understanding of how they work in the field. Most of the folks who are real experts (both with field experience and teaching) are retiring, so it is a good fit for me.
I'love be doing my first forays at Tac Con his year with both a classroom lecture and a range class on the Offensive use of the shotgun which is very different from its traditional role.

I am looking forward to taking a class from you when you hit the Mid-Atlantic area.

[SeriousStudent]

What gear is needed to participate effectively in a shotgun class?

All I have seen listed is dummy rounds.

Shotgun is obvious. Sling is likely.

Dump pouch? Stripper deals for the belt to hold shells? Side saddle? Bandoleer? Pt belt?

Seriously, what all does one NEED before a quality class? I don't want to buy useless shit that I dump later, but in also don want to show up without necessary learning tools.

An extra shotgun. Seriously. Stuff breaks, especially shotguns.

A small dump pouch like this is very useful: http://csmgear.com/minidrop-pouch/

A very good sling is a requirement. Be sure you test it a lot before class. I like these items working together:

Front sling QD accessory - https://www.gggaz.com/remington-870-quick-detach-front-and-rear-sling-attachments.html

BFG VCAS sling: https://www.blueforcegear.com/padded-vickers-sling

If you are not using the excellent Magpul stock, then get this with an HK snap hook:

BFG buttstock adapter: https://www.blueforcegear.com/a2-buttstock-adapter.html

https://www.blueforcegear.com/hk-style-hook.html

Velcro mounted shotgun ammo cards are nice, and probably easier to use than a Mesa Tactical Side Saddle. But I do wonder about the real world - does that Velcro get accidentally kicked off? Half my shotguns have Side Saddles, the other half use velcro cards.

If you do not put a Vang Comp Big Dome safety on your 870, you are cheating yourself bigly.

https://vangcomp.com/shop/vcs-remington-dome-head-safety/

I also am a fan of their magazine follower. It is steel, and easy to determine loading status in the dark or rain by touch.

https://vangcomp.com/shop/vcs-stainless-steel-magazine-follower/

Do not buy an 870 Express. Just don't. You can get an 870 Police Magnum used for about the same money.

And a 1301 with an Aimpoint Micro is very fast and accurate.

https://i.imgur.com/TgVVb8L.jpg

[MVS]

I have taken 3 shotgun classes. 2 of the 3 required no sling.

[GJM]

I have taken 3 shotgun classes. 2 of the 3 required no sling.

I am curious about this, as most of the instructors I have taken shotgun training from (Clint Smith, Cain, Awerbuck, Jeans) describe a shotgun sling to be the equivalent of a holster.

[03RN]

I like my shotguns:cool:

https://youtu.be/rIK1v_cynS4

https://youtu.be/AMUUroje6Hs

https://youtu.be/7Ykl3tk0EeQ

[MVS]

I am curious about this, as most of the instructors I have taken shotgun training from (Clint Smith, Cain, Awerbuck, Jeans) describe a shotgun sling to be the equivalent of a holster.

Suarez class we used a sling quite a bit. (Though in what some would call an unsafe and overly dramatic manner), class with a local retired SWAT guy we didn't use a sling at all. Didn't even have a sling on either shotgun I took to the Rangemaster shotgun class.

[03RN]

I think the side saddle is the best for low round counts but dump pouches work better if you need more. The velco ones work well but I prefer dump pouch and the combination is my favorite

[jlw]

I am curious about this, as most of the instructors I have taken shotgun training from (Clint Smith, Cain, Awerbuck, Jeans) describe a shotgun sling to be the equivalent of a holster.
@Tom Givens (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=59) doesn't require slings in his classes; however, an important distinction is that he teaches from a home/business defense contextual approach.

For a contextual approach more akin to a duty shotgun class, I would tend to agree that a sling would be a necessity. Being able to do both is the reason I put the single point sling adapters on my Magpul stocked shotguns. In reference to the line above, Tom even discusses in class that the context doesn't include standing on a road block for hours looking for an escaped prisoner or having to handcuff people on warrants.

I divide my classes into Homefront Shotgun and Social Shotgun. For Homefront, I don't require slings, and we don't shoot slugs. The curriculum allows for people to use their bird gun if that's all they have. Social Shotgun could be dually titled as Patrol Shotgun and involves weapons transitions. As such, a sling is required. It also includes shooting a recognized LE qual course.

[jlw]

Front sling QD accessory - https://www.gggaz.com/remington-870-quick-detach-front-and-rear-sling-attachments.html


------------------

Velcro mounted shotgun ammo cards are nice, and probably easier to use than a Mesa Tactical Side Saddle. But I do wonder about the real world - does that Velcro get accidentally kicked off? Half my shotguns have Side Saddles, the other half use velcro cards.


Does that sling adapter also work with the 1301?

As for the cards, I've not had any issue with the cards from Esstac. My most used one is starting to show it's mileage. I have a couple of cards from Brown Coat that will be replaced ASAP. The elastic has given up the ghost, but they were loser from the start. I like the rifle cards from them that I use on my levergun.

[KeeFus]

Coming by Instructor level shotgun classes locally is damn near impossible. Guss I need to put in for Toms class in Florida.

[SeriousStudent]

Does that sling adapter also work with the 1301?

As for the cards, I've not had any issue with the cards from Esstac. My most used one is starting to show it's mileage. I have a couple of cards from Brown Coat that will be replaced ASAP. The elastic has given up the ghost, but they were loser from the start. I like the rifle cards from them that I use on my levergun.

Chief, I am honestly not sure. I will dig out an 870 and my 1301 and let you know. Hopefully no butchery is required, but I am not adverse to taking an angle grinder to the cheap bits of metal.

But not the shotgun parts, natch.

I found a nice old Wingmaster for a silly price at GT Distributors last weekend, it's going to Nephew Numero Dos. He's a locksmith in a sketchy area of Dallas, and is going to get some free training and a shotgun from Uncle Serious. I may buy him a single point as well, just to experiment with.

[ragnar_d]

+1. Rangemaster DVD

Rangemaster Shotgun, May 18 in Okeechobee, FL (https://www.eventbrite.com/e/defensive-shotgun-course-one-day-florida-tickets-35793479260)
Damn. ECQC and a Rangemaster SG class in Okeechobee. I may have to stick around Florida for at least a little longer.

[GJM]

I like my shotguns:cool:

https://youtu.be/rIK1v_cynS4

https://youtu.be/AMUUroje6Hs

https://youtu.be/7Ykl3tk0EeQ

Thanks for the vids. I am a long time shotgun guy, who started shotgun training in the early 90’s, participated in several three gun nationals in the mid-90’s, and these days carries a 14 inch shotgun all summer.

Shotgun reloading is a monstrosity, and so “un-tactical” that even a gamer guy like me can’t stomach shotgun competition that involves reloading on the clock. Grown men stand still, head down immobilized, with targets ten yards away. Sling it, dump it, but draw your pistol is the only strategy that makes sense when empty with nearby targets.

[SpyderMan2k4]

I've trained with Chris Fry 4 times, Steve Fisher twice, and Tom Givens, Steve Moses, and PSC once each. Every class and instructor was very good, yet different. I'd recommend them all for different and specific reasons. Taking a second gun to a class is a great idea if you can, even if you borrow a non "tactical" one. Testing out gear and ammo before hand is smart, and may seem obvious, but a lot of people don't and they pay for it by having issues. I got to shoot with Rob Haught about a year ago at a range trip, but I'm anxious to get in an actual class with him. He's top of the list for sure, with Darryl not too far behind. I've gone through a LOT of dummy rounds, my favorites are the ones from Brownells. But yes, they do look like legit ammo with clear hulls- I also have some S&B buckshot that's clear, so it takes VERY careful inspection to make sure they stay separate.

[03RN]

Thanks for the vids. I am a long time shotgun guy, who started shotgun training in the early 90’s, participated in several three gun nationals in the mid-90’s, and these days carries a 14 inch shotgun all summer.

Shotgun reloading is a monstrosity, and so “un-tactical” that even a gamer guy like me can’t stomach shotgun competition that involves reloading on the clock. Grown men stand still, head down immobilized, with targets ten yards away. Sling it, dump it, but draw your pistol is the only strategy that makes sense when empty with nearby targets.

I agree, or find cover, or move, etc

Even with a 1014 going room to room I could top off in between engagements. Shooting 30 + rounds in a field of bad guys isn't realistic but I consider it practicing my reloads under a little bit of stress.

[StraitR]

My future plans when I retire again will be teaching defensive/offensive shotgun exclusively on the road, and focused on places where folks are heavily restricted on carbine and over semi auto centerfire weapons use. It is really my niche and my lane, so I am going to stick to it. It is one area where I know there are very few folks in this country who have an experience base balance of extensive field use, understanding of legalities, and teaching the gun along with a true understanding of how they work in the field. Most of the folks who are real experts (both with field experience and teaching) are retiring, so it is a good fit for me.
I'love be doing my first forays at Tac Con his year with both a classroom lecture and a range class on the Offensive use of the shotgun which is very different from its traditional role.

THIS is my purpose for buying a shotgun. We are traveling for the next couple years (wife is travel nursing) and several of our preferred destinations are not friendly to carbines. As such, I'm leaving my AR's and NFA goodies with a friend here in FL until we settle back down.

DB, do you have any upcoming shotgun classes? I'm not seeing any your website.

If not, and we could drum up enough interest here on PF, would you be open to putting on a shotgun class in TX?

[BillSWPA]

Regarding the sling, in a home defense situation, I could envision a situation in which it is necessary to have one or both hands free to perform another task, with young children close by. Having a sling would enable keeping control of the gun.

[BillSWPA]

A few things I have learned from three decades as both a student and instructor of the Thunderstick.

For a majority of folks who are not serious dedicated shotgun users, anything more than a two day class is too much. I have gotten by far he best results and the most learning occurring with a solid one day course. My dream way of teaching the 12ga. Is with multiple one day courses that build over time. From a pure Basic to an Offensive use based class. That way guns and skills improve and change in a pace consistent with long term retention.

The shotgun in practical use is a manipulations and tactics based thing more than a marksmanship based thing if the gun fits and you have a good understanding of consistently mounting the gun. After that, it's a running the gun thing.

My future plans when I retire again will be teaching defensive/offensive shotgun exclusively on the road, and focused on places where folks are heavily restricted on carbine and over semi auto centerfire weapons use. It is really my niche and my lane, so I am going to stick to it. It is one area where I know there are very few folks in this country who have an experience base balance of extensive field use, understanding of legalities, and teaching the gun along with a true understanding of how they work in the field. Most of the folks who are real experts (both with field experience and teaching) are retiring, so it is a good fit for me.
I'love be doing my first forays at Tac Con his year with both a classroom lecture and a range class on the Offensive use of the shotgun which is very different from its traditional role.

I grew up in such a state and still have reasons to visit. I like your plan.

[Unobtanium]

An extra shotgun. Seriously. Stuff breaks, especially shotguns.

A small dump pouch like this is very useful: http://csmgear.com/minidrop-pouch/

A very good sling is a requirement. Be sure you test it a lot before class. I like these items working together:

Front sling QD accessory - https://www.gggaz.com/remington-870-quick-detach-front-and-rear-sling-attachments.html

BFG VCAS sling: https://www.blueforcegear.com/padded-vickers-sling

If you are not using the excellent Magpul stock, then get this with an HK snap hook:

BFG buttstock adapter: https://www.blueforcegear.com/a2-buttstock-adapter.html

https://www.blueforcegear.com/hk-style-hook.html

Velcro mounted shotgun ammo cards are nice, and probably easier to use than a Mesa Tactical Side Saddle. But I do wonder about the real world - does that Velcro get accidentally kicked off? Half my shotguns have Side Saddles, the other half use velcro cards.

If you do not put a Vang Comp Big Dome safety on your 870, you are cheating yourself bigly.

https://vangcomp.com/shop/vcs-remington-dome-head-safety/

I also am a fan of their magazine follower. It is steel, and easy to determine loading status in the dark or rain by touch.

https://vangcomp.com/shop/vcs-stainless-steel-magazine-follower/

Do not buy an 870 Express. Just don't. You can get an 870 Police Magnum used for about the same money.

And a 1301 with an Aimpoint Micro is very fast and accurate.

https://i.imgur.com/TgVVb8L.jpg

I have a Benelli SNT. It's supposed to be uber reliable and durable. I have a few hundred rounds through it now, and have literally never had a malfunction. It may crap its diddy's before god and everyone at the class, but I am thinking it's fine. Benelli has not had the kind of issues Remington does. Since I already have it...

My other gun is an SBS in "jail". I have a TTI large safety on it, and agree 100% with the safety for that location. The SNT safety is on the front of the trigger guard, there are no replacements, but it's located right. I am going to check out Velcro cards and see what the 3G guys are saying on their boards about whether or not they cause issue. Maybe not "real world", but "real enough" that it should mirror a class environment, and so far the "jungle" that is my home, isn't too harsh on gear...

[Unobtanium]

I've trained with Chris Fry 4 times, Steve Fisher twice, and Tom Givens, Steve Moses, and PSC once each. Every class and instructor was very good, yet different. I'd recommend them all for different and specific reasons. Taking a second gun to a class is a great idea if you can, even if you borrow a non "tactical" one. Testing out gear and ammo before hand is smart, and may seem obvious, but a lot of people don't and they pay for it by having issues. I got to shoot with Rob Haught about a year ago at a range trip, but I'm anxious to get in an actual class with him. He's top of the list for sure, with Darryl not too far behind. I've gone through a LOT of dummy rounds, my favorites are the ones from Brownells. But yes, they do look like legit ammo with clear hulls- I also have some S&B buckshot that's clear, so it takes VERY careful inspection to make sure they stay separate.

I have had so much gear that wouldn't work it's not funny.

-K16i that wouldn't fit a Geissele mount without the rings bottoming out before 15 inches torque.
-Surefire Scout that clicked 2x and then froze. (older iteration)
-Surefire adapter and can that both checked in to "spec" that were interfacing on non-contact surfaces of each.
-Wilson Supergrade 1911 that shot the rear sight loose 2x, and had FTE issues.
-FFT trigger-group that wouldn't even allow hammer drop in a Benelli M4.

There are others. imagine showing up to a class and bolting this shit together in the motel room that night!? yet as you say, people do...

[Unobtanium]

THIS is my purpose for buying a shotgun. We are traveling for the next couple years (wife is travel nursing) and several of our preferred destinations are not friendly to carbines. As such, I'm leaving my AR's and NFA goodies with a friend here in FL until we settle back down.

DB, do you have any upcoming shotgun classes? I'm not seeing any your website.

If not, and we could drum up enough interest here on PF, would you be open to putting on a shotgun class in TX?

I second this. It would eliminate travel expenses and housing expenses for me, so I'd be in for sure.

[HopetonBrown]

I am going to check out Velcro cards and see what the 3G guys are saying on their boards about whether or not they cause issue.

Why? 3 gun guys don't use velcro cards.

[Unobtanium]

Why? 3 gun guys don't use velcro cards.

I thought they did. I don't 3 gun, but they are the only people I know who actually "dynamically use" a shotgun in large volumes anymore. None of the officers I know use them, even Border Patrol refuses to use them, although they have the option. At range quals, they don't even shoot the things if they can help it. So that was my only "go to".

[HopetonBrown]

So that was my only "go to".

All the people giving you advice in this thread are not credible?

[Unobtanium]

All the people giving you advice in this thread are not credible?

They are, but they expressed concern because of their lack of experience.




Velcro mounted shotgun ammo cards are nice, and probably easier to use than a Mesa Tactical Side Saddle. But I do wonder about the real world - does that Velcro get accidentally kicked off? Half my shotguns have Side Saddles, the other half use velcro cards.



That is who I originally quoted, as well. I en-devoured to dig deeper, but you say 3GN doesn't use cards.

[03RN]

3 gunners quad load from rigs designed for competitions. I think Velcro cards and a canteen pouch works the best for fighting.
I wish I had a side saddle on my 1014. There were times I felt like I never stopped loading.
22291

[Unobtanium]

3 gunners quad load from rigs designed for competitions. I think Velcro cards and a canteen pouch works the best for fighting.
I wish I had a side saddle on my 1014. There were times I felt like I never stopped loading.
22291

Makes sense. I'll buy some velcro since it seems the way to go. I dislike side-saddles after buying a MESA Tactical years ago. LEft a lasting impression I guess.

[HopetonBrown]

They are, but they expressed concern because of their lack of experience.


They = 1 person in this thread.

Shell cards are fine for classes. Their plusses are that they are inexpensive, and it's easy to reach into a dump pouch and slap a full card on your receiver.

Ones like Vang Comp hold rounds very securely. Others, like SOE aren't as robust but are quicker to reload from, especially when compared to rigid side saddles like Tac Star or Mesa Tactical.

Downsides are they have a finite life span, can't carry shells brass down, and are easier to have your shells pushed out of the side saddle when your shotgun is slung against a body wearing chest rigs/plate carriers/tac vests.

[Unobtanium]

They = 1 person in this thread.

Shell cards are fine for classes. Their plusses are that they are inexpensive, and it's easy to reach into a dump pouch and slap a full card on your receiver.

Ones like Vang Comp hold rounds very securely. Others, like SOE aren't as robust but are quicker to reload from, especially when compared to rigid side saddles like Tac Star or Mesa Tactical.

Downsides are they have a finite life span, can't carry shells brass down, and are easier to have your shells pushed out of the side saddle when your shotgun is slung against a body wearing chest rigs/plate carriers/tac vests.

Thanks! Will go with the VC.

[Unobtanium]

Ah, nevermind. They don't make them for Benelli, and I won't buy a Remington. Vang won't work in my case.

[HopetonBrown]

Ah, nevermind. They don't make them for Benelli, and I won't buy a Remington. Vang won't work in my case.Just buy the $20 carriers, and some velcro from Home Depot. Vang's whole sidesaddle mounting system is rather unnecessary. Degrease the receiver and slap the velcro on.

[Unobtanium]

Just buy the $20 carriers, and some velcro from Home Depot. Vang's whole sidesaddle mounting system is rather unnecessary. Degrease the receiver and slap the velcro on.

Roger that, will do!

[HopetonBrown]

This looks pretty cool, see if they'll still honor this price.

http://www.aresgear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34&products_id=1003&zenid=eca221c5422eaafc76bdc63f1f81a734

[StraitR]

Based on all my reading, the Esstac cards are also recommended by many. I bought a couple, and they seem very well made, like the other Esstac gear I've had in the past.

https://www.skdtac.com/searchresults.asp?Search=esstac+shotgun+card

[03RN]

This looks pretty cool, see if they'll still honor this price.

http://www.aresgear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34&products_id=1003&zenid=eca221c5422eaafc76bdc63f1f81a734

These are my favorite
https://www.skdtac.com/Esstac-Shotgun-Card-p/ess.106.htm

[GJM]

These are my favorite
https://www.skdtac.com/Esstac-Shotgun-Card-p/ess.106.htm


I like these, and the way they fit into an AR pouch. This is a picture from June of my various shotgun ammo carry options.

22296

I differentiate between course use and my real world use of the shotgun, which is for protecting me against bears. In a course, a sling is quite nice for bearing some of the weight during loading, practicing transitions without throwing your shotgun on the ground (Pat Rogers and others teach to transition to the pistol if empty or malfunctioning with a threat inside 25 yards, and fix it if possible if the threat is greater than 25 yards) and listening to instructors wax eloquently on patterning (which can be short-cut to, buy Federal Flite Control). In the field, I want a sling because it is hard to do things like fish and clamber up rocks with the shotgun in your hands. However, I do want that sling to be easily removable so I can put it in my pocket when in thick cover. In terms of extra ammo, I have Velcro on my action so I can store ammo in a card on the shotty when in a case, but I typically remove the card when carrying so my slugs don’t fall out in rough terrain. I have extra ammo on me, but outside of a course setting, view them as like speed strips for the revolver, since my fastest reload is my HK USP with 13 rounds of .45 Super.

[Drang]

One piece of equipment I can heartily unrecommend, based on the one day defensive shotgun class I've taken, is one of the sling adapters that fit between the buttstock and the receiver, like the Magpul SGA® Receiver Sling Mount.
It may work for others, but when we were shooting the "other strong hand" course of fire, it was very painful. Here's a crappy cell phone pic:
22298
Making your trigger finger hurt that much is bad, m'kay?
So why try it, when there are other perfectly usable sling attachment points on the Magpul SGA stock? Well, Tamara had one (https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2015/10/i-see-pattern-forming.html), so it seemed like a good idea at the time...

As I pointed out in my review at the time (https://thecluemeter.blogspot.com/2015/10/defensive-shotgun-fas-10172015.html), the Surefire DSG foreend was also beating up my hand. This might be a factor for a gaming/training shotgun, but I have no qualms about using it on a defensive firearm.

[TCinVA]

That is who I originally quoted, as well. I en-devoured to dig deeper, but you say 3GN doesn't use cards.

3 gun is cool, but their loading and ammunition management have almost no relevance to social use of the shotgun as noted below. I mean, this is fast:


https://youtu.be/PMVURZm4W4Y

...but it requires specialized equipment to carry that many shells and to offer them up in a position suitable to that sort of loading technique. The long gun for citizens and most police officers is a grab-it-and-go weapon. Especially the shotgun since carrying extra ammunition is difficult to do unless it's attached to the gun. We won't need 3 gunner round counts with a shotgun in a fight and we can't carry that much ammo anyway so it's rather a moot point. We can attach some extra shells the gun and have enough ammo to stay in as long as all but the absolute worst possible case scenario fight is going to last.

I use the Vang Comp shell carriers. Brownell's has them for $20 a piece:

https://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/speedloaders-accessories/shotgun-shell-holders/detachable-side-ammo-carrier-prod31882.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=VANG%2bCOMP%2b SYSTEMS

100-005-248WB
Extra Carrier

I use industrial strength self-adhesive velcro attached directly to the receiver on most of my guns and then I slap the Vang Comp shell holder on it. It attaches securely and does not remove without deliberate effort. It holds the shells well, allowing you to carry them rim down if you like. (Which I do like) It's also durable enough to last even if you are hard on it. (Which I am)

Esstac cards are OK, but I don't think they are as durable in the long term as the Vang Comp holders. Not a bad option, though, if you want to quickly top up the side-saddle position with more shells.

As for police use, very few police are competently trained in the shotgun anymore. Very few were ever trained on the shotgun to begin with. It's something we discuss at length in the P&S podcast...lots of good information in it:


https://youtu.be/5HGDikyeqfQ

Pay close attention to what Rob Haught has to say about the way his guns are set up and how many spare shells he carries on his gun.


Makes sense. I'll buy some velcro since it seems the way to go. I dislike side-saddles after buying a MESA Tactical years ago. LEft a lasting impression I guess.

I tried the Mesa. It holds the shells VERY securely while the rubber tube is in good shape...too securely. As in it's more difficult to get the shells out of the damn thing than it should be. After using both I found the Vang held shells where they needed to be even after I've dumped an entire gun's worth of ammo as fast as possible without slowing down my reload. If you are subjecting the gun to even more vibration than when running it really fast...like maybe if you spend lots of time driving off-road and the gun bounces around in your vehicle a lot) then the extra retention of the Mesa might be worthwhile.


This looks pretty cool, see if they'll still honor this price.

http://www.aresgear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34&products_id=1003&zenid=eca221c5422eaafc76bdc63f1f81a734

I tried their two-shell holders mounted on my Berettas but the shells move around an awful lot in the loops, at least in my experience. I wouldn't choose them for mounting as a side saddle, personally...

[TCinVA]

One piece of equipment I can heartily unrecommend, based on the one day defensive shotgun class I've taken, is one of the sling adapters that fit between the buttstock and the receiver, like the Magpul SGA® Receiver Sling Mount.
It may work for others, but when we were shooting the "other strong hand" course of fire, it was very painful. Here's a crappy cell phone pic:
22298
Making your trigger finger hurt that much is bad, m'kay?
So why try it, when there are other perfectly usable sling attachment points on the Magpul SGA stock? Well, Tamara had one (https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2015/10/i-see-pattern-forming.html), so it seemed like a good idea at the time...

As I pointed out in my review at the time (https://thecluemeter.blogspot.com/2015/10/defensive-shotgun-fas-10172015.html), the Surefire DSG foreend was also beating up my hand. This might be a factor for a gaming/training shotgun, but I have no qualms about using it on a defensive firearm.

That location for the Magpul sling mount does indeed suck donkey water on a shotgun, IMO.

As for the Surefire forend, try changing your grip on it. I run my thumb and index finger to one side and the rest of my fingers to the other. This keeps the hump from slamming into the bone of my index finger during recoil and allows me to more effectively apply forward pressure for push/pull.

[Drang]

As for the Surefire forend, try changing your grip on it. I run my thumb and index finger to one side and the rest of my fingers to the other. This keeps the hump from slamming into the bone of my index finger during recoil and allows me to more effectively apply forward pressure for push/pull.Noted, thanks.

[03RN]

I like these, and the way they fit into an AR pouch. This is a picture from June of my various shotgun ammo carry options.

22296

I differentiate between course use and my real world use of the shotgun, which is for protecting me against bears. In a course, a sling is quite nice for bearing some of the weight during loading, practicing transitions without throwing your shotgun on the ground (Pat Rogers and others teach to transition to the pistol if empty or malfunctioning with a threat inside 25 yards, and fix it if possible if the threat is greater than 25 yards) and listening to instructors wax eloquently on patterning (which can be short-cut to, buy Federal Flite Control). In the field, I want a sling because it is hard to do things like fish and clamber up rocks with the shotgun in your hands. However, I do want that sling to be easily removable so I can put it in my pocket when in thick cover. In terms of extra ammo, I have Velcro on my action so I can store ammo in a card on the shotty when in a case, but I typically remove the card when carrying so my slugs don’t fall out in rough terrain. I have extra ammo on me, but outside of a course setting, view them as like speed strips for the revolver, since my fastest reload is my HK USP with 13 rounds of .45 Super.

Sounds like you and I agree. Even up to carrying a .45 super as a woods gun:cool:22306

[That Guy]

The long gun for citizens and most police officers is a grab-it-and-go weapon. Especially the shotgun since carrying extra ammunition is difficult to do unless it's attached to the gun.

I know it's an old and tired cliche, I know the method has its issues, but for grab-it-and-go-go-go! shotgun ammunition storage, I like the bandoleer / ammo belt thrown over one shoulder. Cheap, easy to setup, doesn't add weight to an already heavy and bulky gun, and you can have quite a bit of spare ammunition on your person in two seconds flat. You can even have two different kinds of ammunition and keep them separated, by having the rims on the opposite sides of the belt.

You know what they say; if it's stupid but it works...

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[Unobtanium]

I know it's an old and tired cliche, I know the method has its issues, but for grab-it-and-go-go-go! shotgun ammunition storage, I like the bandoleer / ammo belt thrown over one shoulder. Cheap, easy to setup, doesn't add weight to an already heavy and bulky gun, and you can have quite a bit of spare ammunition on your person in two seconds flat. You can even have two different kinds of ammunition and keep them separated, by having the rims on the opposite sides of the belt.

You know what they say; if it's stupid but it works...

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

I kindof was thinking of a bandoleer. I know it has all sorts of "Rambo" connotations, but is there a functional "issue" with the concept?

[HCM]

Based on all my reading, the Esstac cards are also recommended by many. I bought a couple, and they seem very well made, like the other Esstac gear I've had in the past.

https://www.skdtac.com/searchresults.asp?Search=esstac+shotgun+card

I like the idea of the cards. In practice I’ve had shells pop out of them both in training and in a house with a fugitive barricaded in the bathroom. I’ve tried the Esstacs and the ones Raven used to offer.

I’m trying the shorter 4 round versions now. I like the shorter version better in terms of feel and handling when it’s on the gun.

[StraitR]

I like the idea of the cards. In practice I’ve had shells pop out of them both in training and in a house with a fugitive barricaded in the bathroom. I’ve tried the Esstacs and the ones Raven used to offer.

I’m trying the shorter 4 round versions now. I like the shorter version better in terms of feel and handling when it’s on the gun.


I bought the 4 round cards also. Just didn't feel the need for more given my HD purposes. Can always add more velcro and get longer cards should I find a need, such as a class.

[Jackdog]

Gadsden Dynamics make a shot shell chest rig that can also be worn as a bandoleer.

https://www.gadsdendynamics.com/products/mg-underground-partisan-chest-rig


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cacafuego]

I kindof was thinking of a bandoleer. I know it has all sorts of "Rambo" connotations, but is there a functional "issue" with the concept?

I've used a belt, both as a belt and a bandoleer, in shotgun classes, with good results. Also easy to keep near the gun at home.

[That Guy]

I kindof was thinking of a bandoleer. I know it has all sorts of "Rambo" connotations, but is there a functional "issue" with the concept?Well the bandoleer is a compromise - easy and fast to put on means it's not strapped on to you as well as a load bearing vest or similar.

If you move about vigorously enough it can be annoying - moving through narrow openings it can snag on things, the bandoleer can move about so the portion with shells on it can move on you (although in my experience the shells tend to always want to be on the lowest part, which is actually nice - I always know where to find them), the only thing keeping it on you is gravity so doing things like going to prone and back up repeatedly, low crawling, the bandoleer wants to come off. But I'm of the opinion if you are going to do things like that you will need a proper chest rig or something similar to hold your ammunition. And I think typically shotgun toting tends to be a bit less intensely dynamic for people?

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[TCinVA]

There's nothing wrong with putting a sling on your gun and securely affixing a means of carrying shells to it. It's not as suitable for a speed-reload as a side saddle or butt cuff, but if the concern is having more ammunition with the gun then putting some shells on the sling allows carrying more ammo on the gun without worrying about putting on a belt of shells.

[03RN]

There's nothing wrong with putting a sling on your gun and securely affixing a means of carrying shells to it. It's not as suitable for a speed-reload as a side saddle or butt cuff, but if the concern is having more ammunition with the gun then putting some shells on the sling allows carrying more ammo on the gun without worrying about putting on a belt of shells.

Those then to swing back and forth and make shooting much harder. Not to me tion trying to load a shotgun from a swinging sling is even less fun under fire than just loading a shotgun one round at a time.

I'd rather a sidesaddle, then a buttcuff if we're limited to on gun ammo.

[03RN]

I like the idea of the cards. In practice I’ve had shells pop out of them both in training and in a house with a fugitive barricaded in the bathroom. I’ve tried the Esstacs and the ones Raven used to offer.

I’m trying the shorter 4 round versions now. I like the shorter version better in terms of feel and handling when it’s on the gun.

I have black and coyote esstac cards the coyote ones have a strip of synthetic suede seen in that makes them much more secure. The ones without loose sheels way to easy

[Dagga Boy]

Those then to swing back and forth and make shooting much harder. Not to me tion trying to load a shotgun from a swinging sling is even less fun under fire than just loading a shotgun one round at a time.

I'd rather a sidesaddle, then a buttcuff if we're limited to on gun ammo.

Agreed. Those slings with the rounds on them are terrible to work from and to shoot with, which is heavily magnified combined with any sort of activity or movement.

[Cecil Burch]

I used this at Rob Haught's course as my larger ammo carrier.


https://www.lapolicegear.com/redrock-sidekick-sling-bag.html



During class, I left it right behind the line and I could make a quick grab to load up my side saddle or butt cuff (depending which 500 I was using at the time) and some in my pockets. It was useful that way, and it could easily be slung over the shoulder with quick access to a ton of ammo. The main compartment holds a bit more than 60 rounds loose. Or you you stack two 25 round boxes with the top flaps torn off if you wanted a more organized carry. The front zippered pocket holds about 5 rounds (this is where I put slugs), and the side zippered one holds a bit more (8-9). There is also an open pocket on the back/side where I threw in a TQ and a pressure bandage. Not a bad rig for under $30.

[GyroF-16]

I bought the 4 round cards also. Just didn't feel the need for more given my HD purposes. Can always add more velcro and get longer cards should I find a need, such as a class.

I’m leaning this way, too. I made some templates from 3x5 cards this morning, and am concluding that more than 4 would get in the way. I’m left-handed, and have reversed the safety on my 1301T. Unfortunately, anything that comes back more than 4.5” from the front of the receiver would interfere with my index finger’s access to the safety. To bad, as I was also eyeing the Aridus quick-detach carrier - but the latch on the aft end would make safety access awkward, not to mention the aft 2-3 shells sticking down.

So I think I’ll try some -rd cards from Esstac. I also like the idea of less bulk when the cards are not attached.

[SeriousStudent]

I use this from Home Depot to tote shells to the line:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-5-in-Utility-Sack-82051N12/203791942

I usually give them to a friend at a class when I'm done. Great for carrying loose shotshells or revolver ammo and speedloaders.

And it's a whopping six dollars.

[SeriousStudent]

Gadsden Dynamics make a shot shell chest rig that can also be worn as a bandoleer.

https://www.gadsdendynamics.com/products/mg-underground-partisan-chest-rig


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I saw you running that thing at the last HiTS shotgun class, it worked really well.

[Jackdog]

I saw you running that thing at the last HiTS shotgun class, it worked really well.

I was running the version for AR mags and putting my Q-DCs in it. Ran great for that purpose!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StraitR]

I don't listen/watch much P&S these days, but this was a good recent episode strictly about shotguns. It's over 3 hours and took me a few nights to get through it, but lots of good insight and opinions from Rob Haught and others.

A lot of high praise for the 1301 and Adam's products for it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HGDikyeqfQ

[StraitR]

And now I see TC posted the video above. :o

[SteveB]

I’ll put in a plug for Randy Cain: http://www.guntactics.com/shotgun.htm

Randy's emphasis in his intro course is keeping the gun loaded. When I took the course, it was centered around the 870, although there were a few SA’s in the class. What I found most valuable about this class was that, no matter the shooting problem being addressed, there was an expectation that the gun would be reloaded, up on the target, on the move, whatever. Not only were there drills centered on loading (multiple variations of Rolling Thunder) but students were expected to engage targets in the middle of reloading. As has been pointed out here, reloading is the most problematic of shotgun skills, and Randy teaches it well.

[jlw]

I’ll put in a plug for Randy Cain: http://www.guntactics.com/shotgun.htm

Randy's emphasis in his intro course is keeping the gun loaded. When I took the course, it was centered around the 870, although there were a few SA’s in the class. What I found most valuable about this class was that, no matter the shooting problem being addressed, there was an expectation that the gun would be reloaded, up on the target, on the move, whatever. Not only were there drills centered on loading (multiple variations of Rolling Thunder) but students were expected to engage targets in the middle of reloading. As has been pointed out here, reloading is the most problematic of shotgun skills, and Randy teaches it well.


It seems every time that he does his shotgun class I have a date conflict.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

AAR with Tom Givens

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453025&highlight=givens

[jellydonut]

AAR with Tom Givens

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453025&highlight=givens


Moving to live fire, we used birdshot and practiced loading and topping off the gun with the gun pointed at the target.

Did we all stop reloading in the 'work space' while I was sleeping?

Fumbling around with the gun on target seems counterproductive to me.

[Tom Givens]

Did we all stop reloading in the 'work space' while I was sleeping?

Fumbling around with the gun on target seems counterproductive to me.

"gun on target" is not really an accurate assessment of what we did. If empty, gun stays on the shoulder and we get a round into the chamber with the support hand, quickly. No one advocated fumbling around with the gun.

[jellydonut]

"gun on target" is not really an accurate assessment of what we did. If empty, gun stays on the shoulder and we get a round into the chamber with the support hand, quickly. No one advocated fumbling around with the gun.

Aha, I'm with you. Yeah I can see the logic of getting one in the chamber quickly without breaking the gun down. I take it you break the gun down to feed the tube?

[03RN]

Did we all stop reloading in the 'work space' while I was sleeping?

Fumbling around with the gun on target seems counterproductive to me.

Taking the gun off target seems counter productive to me.

Remember, this isn't a rifle where you load 1 magazine and go. If your shotgun is empty it takes a lot more time to get it fully loaded. Having the muzzle pointed towards any potential threat will help if another round is needed.

[GJM]

Taking the gun off target seems counter productive to me.

Remember, this isn't a rifle where you load 1 magazine and go. If your shotgun is empty it takes a lot more time to get it fully loaded. Having the muzzle pointed towards any potential threat will help if another round is needed.

I recognize that Internet communication sometimes can be awkward, but I’m reading this as if you are advocating muzzling potential targets while not in the actual process of shooting. I like a muzzle depressed position, because it allows me to see the whole field in front of me, and does not violate rule two, which I consider to be the single most important safety rule.

[03RN]

Aha, I'm with you. Yeah I can see the logic of getting one in the chamber quickly without breaking the gun down. I take it you break the gun down to feed the tube?

I know Mr. Givens says no one is advocating fumbling with the shotgun but it is a shotgun.:p It's always being fumbled with whether it's being advocated for or not lol.

https://youtu.be/AMUUroje6Hs

Especially after working 3rd shift in a psych ward then going to shoot on no sleep. :o

[03RN]

I recognize that Internet communication sometimes can be awkward, but I’m reading this as if you are advocating muzzling potential targets while not in the actual process of shooting. I like a muzzle depressed position, because it allows me to see the whole field in front of me, and does not violate rule two, which I consider to be the single most important safety rule.

You are only reloading a shotgun because you just shot bad guys. I am still aiming in their general direction untill I am sure they are dead bad guys. I want to make sure if one of them moves while I am reloading I can shoot again immediately.

[jellydonut]

Taking the gun off target seems counter productive to me.

Remember, this isn't a rifle where you load 1 magazine and go. If your shotgun is empty it takes a lot more time to get it fully loaded. Having the muzzle pointed towards any potential threat will help if another round is needed.

Maybe it's just because I have a weak upper body but loading the chamber through the ejection port is about 99% more likely to become a slow fumble or a lost shell if i keep the gun up. I also don't see much use in keeping an empty gun up on target when it makes my reload slower.

I can see the rationale for keeping it up if you still have ammo left (or, if it was empty, once you've got the chamber up and running) and you're feeding the tube on a partially loaded gun, although even there I don't seem to be much slower on target going from the tucked loading position to firing position. There is definitely a delay in there, though.

[TCinVA]

Aha, I'm with you. Yeah I can see the logic of getting one in the chamber quickly without breaking the gun down. I take it you break the gun down to feed the tube?

Not if you don't need to. I can top off the tube with the gun still tucked into my shoulder ready to fire if I need to.

Tube-loading a shotgun is not something we do in a hurry. Emergency loading/port loading is the thing we do in a hurry.

Some people lack the upper body strength necessary to hold the gun up like that to load it from the tube, so for those people I say it's perfectly fine for them to take the gun from the shoulder to the high ready position to load it if they need to do so.


Maybe it's just because I have a weak upper body but loading the chamber through the ejection port is about 99% more likely to become a slow fumble or a lost shell if i keep the gun up. I also don't see much use in keeping an empty gun up on target when it makes my reload slower.

I can see the rationale for keeping it up if you still have ammo left (or, if it was empty, once you've got the chamber up and running) and you're feeding the tube on a partially loaded gun, although even there I don't seem to be much slower on target going from the tucked loading position to firing position. There is definitely a delay in there, though.

IF, it makes your reload slower. For me...and for most...it doesn't. When I load from my side saddle I can just move my left hand to get the shell, get it into the ejection port, and close the action while never taking my sights off target. I can accomplish this more quickly than I can dismount the gun, perform the same manipulation, and remount the gun. If the gun is so heavy you need to support it by dismounting the gun to successfully reload efficiently, then do what you must do to get the gun back into action. What is efficient practice for me may not be the most efficient practice for you...so do what you must.

But I definitely gain by not having to re-mount the gun when I conclude the manipulation.

This is considerably different than a pistol reload which is far less efficient to try and perform while the pistol is hanging out there in space instead of back in my work space. Of course, I don't have the option of loading a single round into the chamber of my pistol or my AR-15 either...so efficiency is very different on those guns than it is on the repeating shotgun.

[Tom Givens]

What Tim said.

[Dagga Boy]

I don't listen/watch much P&S these days, but this was a good recent episode strictly about shotguns. It's over 3 hours and took me a few nights to get through it, but lots of good insight and opinions from Rob Haught and others.

A lot of high praise for the 1301 and Adam's products for it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HGDikyeqfQ

Watched it today. Would have been nice to have had some representation from some folks who did train and use the gun a lot on the LE side to balance stuff out with operational experience. A lot of generalizations about LE training that painted with a very wide brush. Again, stuff can be very regional. Rob actually wrote a letter to our Chief after the first time he had my guys in a class and saw that some cops can actually run the crap out of the gauge. There were a lot of places in my world that were highly proficient with the shotgun as a whole or at least had several folks at their agencies capable of running them well. It is those places and those people where progress is made.
Also......slugs. Sorry, but if you work in an automotive based world, you are doing yourself a huge disservice in not knowing how to effectively utilize the best tool we have for dealing with felons in vehicles.
As usual, some great stuff from Steve Fisher and Rob Haught. Rob did some cutting edge work on advancing shooting the shotgun. The combination of skills I got from SoCal experts on running and operating with the gun combined with Rob's advances in shooting the gun is what made the shotgun my primary go to for hunting felons.

[TCinVA]

A lot of generalizations about LE training that painted with a very wide brush.

Generalizations usually do.

Simple truth of the matter is that shotgun training in aggregate in LE is minimal at best. (In several departments I can name, it is outright non-existent) There are certainly pockets of competence and even excellence which is why I made specific reference to organizations like the ones in SOCAL who have done a lot of gunfighting taking shotgun training and deployment seriously. USBP has also taken the pains to maintain excellent shotgun training over the years and USBP guys I've talked to are big fans of what the weapon can do.

Organizations that shoot a lot of people with pistols pretty quickly figure out that pistols suck.



Also......slugs. Sorry, but if you work in an automotive based world, you are doing yourself a huge disservice in not knowing how to effectively utilize the best tool we have for dealing with felons in vehicles.


I mentioned that, too. Of course, most police departments are not running guns set up to really use slugs to their full potential and the departments that never really invested the time and effort into figuring out what the shotgun can really do for them are likely to be using soft lead foster slugs (that likely haven't really been tested thoroughly in each issued shotgun) which give somewhat less than optimal performance in and around vehicles compared with the performance of some of the better slugs for the task like Brenneke or Federal's recent TruBall deep penetrator slugs.

[StraitR]

The more I learn about shotguns, their deployment, and the results of their deployment, the more I realize I've been kidding myself about needing a suppressed carbine for my HD purposes.

Been focusing on getting a round in the chamber from C3 (bolt locked back/safety off) on my Benelli. Started off with slow and purposeful actions just to learn the movement. Certainly making progress, as I don't "think" about it now that the movement is known. That said, I really want and need to get into a class in the first half of '18, as this shotgun is still wildly unfamiliar compared to a carbine.

Questions.... I'm using 4 shot Esstac cards, brass up. I'm loading the chamber over the top then using my thumb to drop the bolt. It works, but it seems tedious with that little Benelli bolt release button (I'm trying not to change parts). Is this the best way? Due to the T2, I would much prefer to go brass down/load under as the bolt release is much easier to hit when I can mash multiple fingers against the receiver vs just the thumb when going over. But, I keep reading velcro cards aren't the best for brass down, so I'm trying to learn the right way the first time. Anything wrong with coming over the top, dropping in the shell, then sweeping the hand back against the charging handle to drop bolt? Seems a bit slower (just like on a handgun), but definitely more easily repeatable and takes much less concentration/focus for me. I have no issue doing this on my 1911's (or previous glocks), so is this just a matter of more reps? I don't like having to focus that hard on the gun and loosing focus the reason for loading it.

[TCinVA]

But, I keep reading velcro cards aren't the best for brass down, so I'm trying to learn the right way the first time. Anything wrong with coming over the top, dropping in the shell, then using the charging handle to drop bolt?


I'm sort of agnostic on how people get the gun into action. I have methods that I teach because I've done a lot of work to find what I think are efficient and effective methods that work well under a wide variety of conditions.

I carry my shells brass down because I've found that the Vang Comp velcro shell carrier is durable and reliably holds on to the shells even if you mag-dump a Beretta 1301 with magnum loads as fast as you can pull the trigger. Brass-down carry gives me the most efficient reloads.

I also demonstrate brass-up carry because I know many clients/students won't have that shell carrier and lots of shell carriers suck after a while. When I do brass-up carry I still prefer to go underneath on the 870 and semi-autos like the 1301 because I find I can hit the ejection port better coming from underneath than going over the top. When I go over the top I generally need to at least glance at the gun to get the shell in. When going underneath, it is rather nice that my hand is right there to use the bolt release on the semi-auto. I like to tell people to keep as much meat around the shell as possible so they don't go fumbling it when they try to reload the gun.

So, no, there's nothing wrong wth the method you are describing. But only use that method if it proves to be the method that works best for you. Don't get stuck in that methodology due to equipment when better equipment is available.

[GJM]

Craig, as you know, I carry a Benelli shotgun daily all summer. I carry it condition 3. However, what I do is fill the tube, but then hit the release so the slug is floated. This allows an empty chamber, but all you have to do is work the action to chamber a round. This strikes a balance for me between safety and speed.

[StraitR]

Thanks TCinVA. I'll continue to experiment and work on manipulations. I'm basing my "brass down bad" on generalizations I've read. It wasn't written specifically towards the Esstac cards, so maybe I'll give it a whirl. I agree that loading under for everything is much easier for me, from dropping in the port to hitting the bolt release, all with only a quick glance which eliminates the need to hard focus on the gun. It feels more natural and intuitive.

Unfortunately, Vang doesn't make 4 shot cards, and I really don't want the weight and length of the 6 shot card.

Appreciate your input, in the whole thread actually.

[StraitR]

Craig, as you know, I carry a Benelli shotgun daily all summer. I carry it condition 3. However, what I do is fill the tube, but then hit the release so the slug is floated. This allows an empty chamber, but all you have to do is work the action to chamber a round. This strikes a balance for me between safety and speed.

That's for your input George. That certainly seems like the fastest way to get a Benelli into action from a C3 state. You leave the safety off, if I'm not mistaken?

[GJM]

That's for your input George. That certainly seems like the fastest way to get a Benelli into action from a C3 state. You leave the safety off, if I'm not mistaken?

Yes.

[SpyderMan2k4]

Regarding emergency loads, I've played with it quite a bit. I think of it more than having the gun pointed near the target vs actually having the sights on target the entire time- that's pretty much impossible to do with any kind of speed. I've long been of the opinion that if your gun is empty, just get rounds in the thing, even if it goes against some "conventional wisdom."

I don't typically like spamming my own stuff, but I think this video might help give a look at different options for emergency loads.

https://youtu.be/Km-uP9-Vr4g

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Touches on reloading:

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/12/the-truth-about-the-remingtom-870-dm.html

[jlw]

The more I learn about shotguns, their deployment, and the results of their deployment, the more I realize I've been kidding myself about needing a suppressed carbine for my HD purposes.

Been focusing on getting a round in the chamber from C3 (bolt locked back/safety off) on my Benelli. Started off with slow and purposeful actions just to learn the movement. Certainly making progress, as I don't "think" about it now that the movement is known. That said, I really want and need to get into a class in the first half of '18, as this shotgun is still wildly unfamiliar compared to a carbine.

Questions.... I'm using 4 shot Esstac cards, brass up. I'm loading the chamber over the top then using my thumb to drop the bolt. It works, but it seems tedious with that little Benelli bolt release button (I'm trying not to change parts). Is this the best way? Due to the T2, I would much prefer to go brass down/load under as the bolt release is much easier to hit when I can mash multiple fingers against the receiver vs just the thumb when going over. But, I keep reading velcro cards aren't the best for brass down, so I'm trying to learn the right way the first time. Anything wrong with coming over the top, dropping in the shell, then sweeping the hand back against the charging handle to drop bolt? Seems a bit slower (just like on a handgun), but definitely more easily repeatable and takes much less concentration/focus for me. I have no issue doing this on my 1911's (or previous glocks), so is this just a matter of more reps? I don't like having to focus that hard on the gun and loosing focus the reason for loading it.


I use the same procedure as GJM posted in #124 although I am running with FliteControl rather than a slug. It's just a matter of working the bolt to chamber a round.

As for the cards, I had been running brass up for the first two rounds for emergency loads and brass down for the remaining rounds for speed loads. I took a class with Dagga Boy this summer, and he demonstrated a loading method with the brass up that will work for over the top, underneath, and speed loading. I'll try to shoot a video clip of it.

[GJM]

I really like these for loading from, and easily carrying a reasonable number of extra rounds:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2394156343/california-competition-works-shell-caddy-tactical-shotshell-ammunition-carrier-12-gauge-4-round-2-3-4-and-3-shells-polymer

[TCinVA]

I took a class with Dagga Boy this summer, and he demonstrated a loading method with the brass up that will work for over the top, underneath, and speed loading. I'll try to shoot a video clip of it.

That method of addressing brass-up shells is the best I've found in terms of retaining control of the shell.

[Dagga Boy]

Generalizations usually do.

Simple truth of the matter is that shotgun training in aggregate in LE is minimal at best. (In several departments I can name, it is outright non-existent) There are certainly pockets of competence and even excellence which is why I made specific reference to organizations like the ones in SOCAL who have done a lot of gunfighting taking shotgun training and deployment seriously. USBP has also taken the pains to maintain excellent shotgun training over the years and USBP guys I've talked to are big fans of what the weapon can do.

Organizations that shoot a lot of people with pistols pretty quickly figure out that pistols suck.



I mentioned that, too. Of course, most police departments are not running guns set up to really use slugs to their full potential and the departments that never really invested the time and effort into figuring out what the shotgun can really do for them are likely to be using soft lead foster slugs (that likely haven't really been tested thoroughly in each issued shotgun) which give somewhat less than optimal performance in and around vehicles compared with the performance of some of the better slugs for the task like Brenneke or Federal's recent TruBall deep penetrator slugs.

I thought you did a great job on presenting what you know, which is citizen defensive use. Stuff was covered by everyone, but I found what was missing was the high level actual operational use and training when done right and an emphasis on what is wrong. It would be like talking about citizen home defense use without anyone there who has both lived and poured their training regimens into that and everyone just saying citizens are all jacked up on how they do it and don’t train....which is mostly true, but what we are trying to change.
My slug opinion comes from doing hundreds of select slug transitions in the field, under stress with live people involved, and actually fired two after the transition to them from buckshot. I am not unique in my old area, but what is getting unique is that many of us are retiring and so is the knowledge. These podcasts and other means are a way to keep that stuff in play and build new expertise. Trust me, based on extensive conversations with USBP, their shotgun program is a shadow of what it once was. That is a mirror of the entire country. As stated, we have made huge strides forward on the guns and ammo. What is missing is operational correct experience based training stuff.
I didn’t find the podcast wrong, just lacking on the how to fix things on the LE side.

[jlw]

I really like these for loading from, and easily carrying a reasonable number of extra rounds:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2394156343/california-competition-works-shell-caddy-tactical-shotshell-ammunition-carrier-12-gauge-4-round-2-3-4-and-3-shells-polymer


I have one of those for use in classes to have more ammo readily available, and I have a dedicated shotgun belt, but I strongly prefer having ammo on the gun itself.

[GJM]

Another training niche is use of the shotgun for protection against bears and other four legged predators. Leaving aside LE, hunting and 3 gun, my guess is the shotgun is rarely deployed by civilians off a square range environment. In AK, there are many people carrying a shotgun with slugs daily, and they may have to use that shotgun to save their lives against a incredibly capable adversary. Besides some parts of the Gunsite Backcountry course, I haven’t seen much training that is geared to that use.

[GJM]

I have one of those for use in classes to have more ammo readily available, and I have a dedicated shotgun belt, but I strongly prefer having ammo on the gun itself.

I like to store ammo on the shotgun, but get it on my person when deploying the shotgun, as I have lost way too many slugs and centerfire cartridges in alders and willows, traversing Alaska. :)

[Dagga Boy]

That method of addressing brass-up shells is the best I've found in terms of retaining control of the shell.

Perfect example of my points. So, below is a picture from working crime suppression mid 90’s. Look at how my side saddle is set up on a department gun I put my own side saddle on and light. Sort of state of the art accepted practice at the time. LAPD Metro learned about the negatives of hulls down set up on the side saddles during extended action with shotguns during the LA riots and a long shootout in Nickerson Gardens. They came up with the most efficient hull up loading procedures, and I got it from them and changed the way we did reloads (which is why I call it a Metro load). Again, we learn a lot when we field test stuff. Solid TTPs are developed from stuff we use in the square range, but test in the field under real world stress.

[StraitR]

I need this Metro load in my life.

[SeriousStudent]

I need this Metro load in my life.

It works.

[167]

Metro load @ 3:35?


https://youtu.be/imY0FT4ZtBc?t=3m32s

[StraitR]

Metro load @ 3:35?

Not sure, but that works really well for me in the brief 10 minutes I spent testing it. I'll do more tonight after the family turns in.*


*Daily shotgun manipulation training is considerably harder (physically and mentally) than pistol or carbine ever was, for me. Crossfit should consider throwing some in a circuit. Just saying, the burn is real.

[jlw]

Not sure, but that works really well for me in the brief 10 minutes I spent testing it. I'll do more tonight after the family turns in.*


*Daily shotgun manipulation training is considerably harder (physically and mentally) than pistol or carbine ever was, for me. Crossfit should consider throwing some in a circuit. Just saying, the burn is real.


It didn't click for me when I took Dagga's class; so, for the rest of the class I stayed with my traditional method. Having worked with it for a while, I'm starting to like it.

[Dagga Boy]

Not sure, but that works really well for me in the brief 10 minutes I spent testing it. I'll do more tonight after the family turns in.*


*Daily shotgun manipulation training is considerably harder (physically and mentally) than pistol or carbine ever was, for me. Crossfit should consider throwing some in a circuit. Just saying, the burn is real.

Once you get it to a sub conscious level it is super efficient and reliable under field conditions. On high risk stops on vehicles, that action that was on the video was exactly how the stop started except for racking the gun after the first slug went in and then two more slugs.

[Xrslug]

It works.

If anyone is in the SoCal area and interested in shotguns, take one of the ITTS shotgun classes. Watching Scotty Reitz do a reload in person, it was so fast and smooth that it almost looks like a sleight of hand magic trick.

[Dagga Boy]

If anyone is in the SoCal area and interested in shotguns, take one of the ITTS shotgun classes. Watching Scotty Reitz do a reload in person, it was so fast and smooth that it almost looks like a sleight of hand magic trick.

Taking classes with Scotty at ITTS is one of the very few benefits of living in SoCal anymore. Back in 1989 when I first saw Scotty and the guys at D platoon run the gauge was life altering for me.

[luckyman]

Taking classes with Scotty at ITTS is one of the very few benefits of living in SoCal anymore. Back in 1989 when I first saw Scotty and the guys at D platoon run the gauge was life altering for me.

Man that reminds me, I need to go back and take the shotgun class again with my Mossberg this time. I got so much out of it the first time; I'm sure a second pass through would be good. The shotty classes other experts put on in Socal always seem to be during the week, which is a problem for me.

[StraitR]

Metro load @ 3:35?


https://youtu.be/imY0FT4ZtBc?t=3m32s

Just to revisit this loading technique after three days (about on hour total) of working on it. It's completely eliminated the thinking, guessing, and confusion of handling my M4. The T2 mounted on top made loading the port over top with brass up in the shot card a challenge, exacerbated by the need to hit the small bolt release with my thumb (awkwardly to avoid charging handle). This took considerable concentration and hard focus on the shotgun.

I previously had some brass down for loading the tube. From the get go, I disliked the some brass up, some brass down approach. The metro load eliminates this complexity and keeps the acquiring of shells from the card to one single motion, regardless of loading the port or tube. For anyone looking to spend time on shotgun loading, I can't imagine a more efficient and rational method to doing so.

I'm really looking forward to getting in a class with DB and seeing this explained and demoed firsthand. Until then, I'll keep at it. Thanks DB for passing on the knowledge and experience, it's greatly appreciated.

[Doc_Glock]

New thread direction but relevant to the shotgun:

How does one zero a shotgun? I assume you zero with slugs and just figure out where the buckshot will for afterwords. What distance?

[jlw]

Metro load @ 3:35?


https://youtu.be/imY0FT4ZtBc?t=3m32s

Not only is Dagga Boy in that video, there is someone else y'all might recognize at the 5:40 mark... ;)

[GJM]

New thread direction but relevant to the shotgun:

How does one zero a shotgun? I assume you zero with slugs and just figure out where the buckshot will for afterwords. What distance?

My preference is 25 yards with slugs, which puts you a few inches high at 50, and back on at 75 yards, and a few inches low at 100.

[Lon]

My preference is 25 yards with slugs, which puts you a few inches high at 50, and back on at 75 yards, and a few inches low at 100.

This is what i do as well.

[That Guy]

I assume you zero with slugs and just figure out where the buckshot will for afterwords.

I do try to find a combination of buckshot and slugs that have the same point of impact.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[GyroF-16]

I do try to find a combination of buckshot and slugs that have the same point of impact.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

I’d like that too...
When I zeroed my 1301T for Fed low-recoil Truball at 25 yds, here’s what I got with buckshot:
Fed reduced recoil 00 buck: group centered about 4” low and a little right
Fed reduced recoil 1 buck: group centered about 3” right and a little low

So that tells me that 25 yds would be a good transition point for buck to slugs.

Thoughts and suggestions?

[GJM]

I’d like that too...
When I zeroed my 1301T for Fed low-recoil Truball at 25 yds, here’s what I got with buckshot:
Fed reduced recoil 00 buck: group centered about 4” low and a little right
Fed reduced recoil 1 buck: group centered about 3” right and a little low

So that tells me that 25 yds would be a good transition point for buck to slugs.

Thoughts and suggestions?

Doesn’t that depend upon the situation — shoot vs no-shoot targets, people vs creature, 25 coming in vs 25 going away, sighting system, inside or outside?

[GyroF-16]

Doesn’t that depend upon the situation — shoot vs no-shoot targets, people vs creature, 25 coming in vs 25 going away, sighting system, inside or outside?

Yes- absolutely.
Maybe a better description would be that I can’t see ANY instances where I would CHOOSE buck outside of 25 yds with my setup, as I would no longer be confident in hitting what I was aiming at.
I absolutely agree that there are several situations where a slug would be preferable inside of 25 yds.

BTW, my sighting system is a RDS (RMO), and I don’t operate in an environment where I would be shooting beyond 25 yds indoors. (Hell, 10 yds would be a stretch indoors).

[Doc_Glock]

I don't listen/watch much P&S these days, but this was a good recent episode strictly about shotguns. It's over 3 hours and took me a few nights to get through it, but lots of good insight and opinions from Rob Haught and others.

A lot of high praise for the 1301 and Adam's products for it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HGDikyeqfQ

Thanks for posting that. I had stopped listening to P&S, but that was outstanding and very worthwhile. Also nice to see two members here participating.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Thanks for posting that. I had stopped listening to P&S, but that was outstanding and very worthwhile. Also nice to see two members here participating.

I was in the same boat w you there, but this one grabbed me back. I've listened to a couple of the other more recent ones and noted what I consider an improvement. The repackaging of the ballistics episode was nice, too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GJM]

A few clicks above the square range.


https://youtu.be/ItbZR3mQd7U

[Erick Gelhaus]

Doesn’t that depend upon the situation — shoot vs no-shoot targets, people vs creature, 25 coming in vs 25 going away, sighting system, inside or outside?

Think back to the original shotgun zones ... 0-5yds A zone & because of essentially a single projectile aim it like a rifle, 5-20yds +/- B zone & this is where one sees the benefit og 00Buck, 20yds+ C Zone & because of pattern spread you'll likely need to transition to a slug.

A lot of that was predicated *I think* on the square range and full frontal targets. The advent of Federal's H132 & then LE132 reduced recoil 00Buck extended the B zone distance (my original Vang gun has a really decent pattern pretty far out). But turning, moving, angled targets could reduce & counter the extention ... depending on the backstop. Then, all of the other factors you hit on come into play. I can just as easily see a must have a slug shot at 6 yds as I can see a 00Buck shot at 30 yds - all depending on the background and the threat problem.

If one is going to work this stuff, learning ones pattern Is pretty important (not just one round at a given distance) followed by time actually practicing on distances and the angles.

[GJM]

Think back to the original shotgun zones ... 0-5yds A zone & because of essentially a single projectile aim it like a rifle, 5-20yds +/- B zone & this is where one sees the benefit og 00Buck, 20yds+ C Zone & because of pattern spread you'll likely need to transition to a slug.

A lot of that was predicated *I think* on the square range and full frontal targets. The advent of Federal's H132 & then LE132 reduced recoil 00Buck extended the B zone distance (my original Vang gun has a really decent pattern pretty far out). But turning, moving, angled targets could reduce & counter the extention ... depending on the backstop. Then, all of the other factors you hit on come into play. I can just as easily see a must have a slug shot at 6 yds as I can see a 00Buck shot at 30 yds - all depending on the background and the threat problem.

If one is going to work this stuff, learning ones pattern Is pretty important (not just one round at a given distance) followed by time actually practicing on distances and the angles.

This is why it seems a lot easier to stay loaded with slugs, and select shot if necessary, rather than loading with shot and selecting a slug.

[Erick Gelhaus]

This is why it seems a lot easier to stay loaded with slugs, and select shot if necessary, rather than loading with shot and selecting a slug.

I'm fine with that idea. At work, with a carbine immediately at hand, my shotgun is a slug gun.

[Lester Polfus]

This is why it seems a lot easier to stay loaded with slugs, and select shot if necessary, rather than loading with shot and selecting a slug.

If you were loaded with slugs, under what circumstances would you select shot?

[GJM]

If you were loaded with slugs, under what circumstances would you select shot?


Shoot a game bird, porcupine or to go to a rubber bullet to shoot a bear in the ass.

[Dagga Boy]

At work and home for me it was Buck indoors Slug outdoors as a better guide. Also used Buck most of the time doing yard to yard K9 searches as those were closer to indoor distances working with the dog handlers in typical urban yards.

[HopetonBrown]

I remember Louis Awerbuck saying he was always loaded with slugs.
This is why it seems a lot easier to stay loaded with slugs, and select shot if necessary, rather than loading with shot and selecting a slug.

[GJM]

I remember Louis Awerbuck saying he was always loaded with slugs.

Yes, and he carried a 14 inch Remington 1100, as I recall.

[dave72]

Yes, and he carried a 14 inch Remington 1100, as I recall.

14 inch 1187 robar gun at the end

[Olim9]

Watched it today. Would have been nice to have had some representation from some folks who did train and use the gun a lot on the LE side to balance stuff out with operational experience.

Perhaps this is something you and Givens can fix :p. Any possibility of you getting in a modcast about shotguns over there? I would absolutely watch that.

[Dagga Boy]

Perhaps this is something you and Givens can fix :p. Any possibility of you getting in a modcast about shotguns over there? I would absolutely watch that.

I ve never turned down a request from anyone to do podcasts or radio. Not sure of how things go over there on guests or if you have to have some status with the group. It doesn’t need to be me. I can think of numerous folks that can provide some good end user input with a lot of actual deployment time. Off the top of my head...Scott Reitz, Bill Jeans, Mark Fricke, Larry Mudgett, Erick Gelhaus, Bill Murphy, Jeremy Stafford, Giles Stock and others. On the training side and program implementation Larry Nichols would be fascinating. Freddie Blish would also be an excellent resource.

The knowledge is out there, you just have to know where to look.

[JM Campbell]

Based on all my reading, the Esstac cards are also recommended by many. I bought a couple, and they seem very well made, like the other Esstac gear I've had in the past.

https://www.skdtac.com/searchresults.asp?Search=esstac+shotgun+card

What size for a 1301? Does the 7 round have interference with any parts of the 1301, ie access to safety? The aridus are very nice but out of my budget for now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GyroF-16]

What size for a 1301? Does the 7 round have interference with any parts of the 1301, ie access to safety? The aridus are very nice but out of my budget for now.

It depends... I’m left handed, and with the original stock, they’d come too far aft on the receiver and the aft few shells would impede an easy reach to the safety on the left side.
Now that I have the Magpul stock, I may reassess.

[JM Campbell]

It depends... I’m left handed, and with the original stock, they’d come too far aft on the receiver and the aft few shells would impede an easy reach to the safety on the left side.
Now that I have the Magpul stock, I may reassess.

Cool, I do have a magpul stock for it courtesy of our Christmas Elfster program, just need to pick up the adapter.

I’ll probably order a 7 and a 5 to see which one I like the most.

Thanks for your input.

JM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

It depends... I’m left handed, and with the original stock, they’d come too far aft on the receiver and the aft few shells would impede an easy reach to the safety on the left side.
Now that I have the Magpul stock, I may reassess.

Like Gyro also a satanhander & agreed on the 7 round cards being too *long* IMO.

I gave the Raven cards an HONEST eval. last Aug during a SG tuneup w/ DB but had issues getting them to stay affixed w/ recoil after slapping them on.
I first noticed this issue earlier in 2017 during several 2G matches but felt that was due to my unfamiliarity w/ them & decided to give 'em more time in use.

I also got to coon finger JackDog's 1301 w/ the Aridus QDC & ordered mine the next week when home. Using the Aridus on my 1301T w/ the safety reversed,
I run the aft 2 shells brass up & high (approx .25") of hull exposed on the bottom w/ no interference of my trigger finger & I also use a/ MP stock on my 1301.

[GyroF-16]

Using the Aridus on my 1301T w/ the safety reversed,
I run the aft 2 shells brass up & high (approx .25") of hull exposed on the bottom w/ no interference of my trigger finger & I also use a/ MP stock on my 1301.

Wow- thanks OldRunner!
With my “stock” Beretta stock, it looked like the aft part of the Airdus shell holder (particularly the latch) would interfere with where I reach for the (reveresed) safety. I’ll have to look at that again with the Magpul stock.

[SpyderMan2k4]

Like Gyro also a satanhander & agreed on the 7 round cards being too *long* IMO.

I gave the Raven cards an HONEST eval. last Aug during a SG tuneup w/ DB but had issues getting them to stay affixed w/ recoil after slapping them on.
I first noticed this issue earlier in 2017 during several 2G matches but felt that was due to my unfamiliarity w/ them & decided to give 'em more time in use.

I also got to coon finger JackDog's 1301 w/ the Aridus QDC & ordered mine the next week when home. Using the Aridus on my 1301T w/ the safety reversed,
I run the aft 2 shells brass up & high (approx .25") of hull exposed on the bottom w/ no interference of my trigger finger & I also use a/ MP stock on my 1301.Any chance you can provide some pictures? Thanks!


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Any chance you can provide some pictures? Thanks!


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Adam I’ll try to get one posted Wed, NLT Thrs.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Any chance you can provide some pictures? Thanks!


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

A quick pic. showing how I run my slug & buck as a lefty in your QDC w/ a reversed safety.

Being an older cat I learned LONG ago from some LE buds to run my shells brass up but given the tension the QDC provides holding them in place, I have no concerns w/ my buck being brass down. Having avg. size paws I simply indexed the slugs up as that gives me ample room for my trigger finger to remain on/near the safety.

22943

[SpyderMan2k4]

A quick pic. showing how I run my slug & buck as a lefty in your QDC w/ a reversed safety.

Being an older cat I learned LONG ago from some LE buds to run my shells brass up but given the tension the QDC provides holding them in place, I have no concerns w/ my buck being brass down. Having avg. size paws I simply indexed the slugs up as that gives me ample room for my trigger finger to remain on/near the safety.

22943That makes sense, thanks.

As for the Q-DC tension, on the early prototypes the tension was so light that even just grabbing the carrier would move the shells around inside of it, yet they still never dropped a single shell brass down. I actually had to tighten it up just to ensure consistency inside of pouches, not to eliminate the risk of dropping shells.

Even a couple years later I'm still tweaking it (I've had people say they wish the retention was lighter). Current carriers ship with better produced springs and a deeper "set" which makes them quicker and easier to remove, but they don't move around too easily, and certainly don't drop shells.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Olim9]

I ve never turned down a request from anyone to do podcasts or radio. Not sure of how things go over there on guests or if you have to have some status with the group.

I did ask P&S a few weeks back about getting you or Givens on a podcast and got a "both are great choices and I have contact with them." Unfortunately, they weren't 100% on having Travis Haley in an episode so at least you're more interesting than him??? :rolleyes:

[StraitR]

So, I've still been carving out semi-regular time for dry work with the shotgun. The "metro load" was my saving grace, but I've run across a difficulty and wanted to get the opinions of others. For those with Benelli's, do you keep the shotgun mounted or not when you do a "select slug" changeover (or changing from any to any)? I want to stay solely with the one way to load (metro) for the sake of repetition, but I have difficulty pronating my wrist/elbow enough to get the new shell in the port when I leave the gun mounted. I'm much faster if I dismount the gun, drop it down between my elbow and lats (muzzle elevated) to insert the new shell via metro, then mount the gun again. When I started practicing this a few months ago, strength was an issue when doing it mounted, but it's not now, it's just a matter of getting my wrist/elbow twisted enough to get the shell in the port.

Does it matter? Mounted or dismounted? What do you do? I'm unfamiliar with the operation of other semi's, but if they work similarly, please feel free to chime in.

[jellydonut]

I think it's much easier to just keep the gun mounted, fire control hand opens the bolt and keeps it open, support hand goes over the top and inserts slug into ejection port.

Not sure what Benelli you are running but the inertia guns, with their aluminium construction, are very light and even to me, a human twig, it's very easy to do this maneuver with the M2.

Perhaps the M4, with both its steel receiver and gas system, is too front-heavy for less built individuals to do this consistently?

I don't know why you're having to contort your joints; I honestly have no idea what the 'metro' technique is, but when you go over the top there isn't any twisting involved, it's a pretty natural motion.

[NPV]

I'll be watching this thread for more learning content. Becoming more proficient with a shotgun is on my long list of to-dos as I am pretty rifle limited up here in New England :mad:

The class that Dagga Boy brought up regarding "ban" states would definately be something I'd be interested in.

[StraitR]

I think it's much easier to just keep the gun mounted, fire control hand opens the bolt and keeps it open, support hand goes over the top and inserts slug into ejection port.

Not sure what Benelli you are running but the inertia guns, with their aluminium construction, are very light and even to me, a human twig, it's very easy to do this maneuver with the M2.

Perhaps the M4, with both its steel receiver and gas system, is too front-heavy for less built individuals to do this consistently?

I don't know why you're having to contort your joints; I honestly have no idea what the 'metro' technique is, but when you go over the top there isn't any twisting involved, it's a pretty natural motion.

Metro load was discussed a few pages back, which is where I discovered it for the first time. I'll quote a post with video below.

The weight doesn't bother when mounted, but I want to stick with the metro load technique only which uses under the receiver, not over. I have a T-2 mounted on my Benelli which makes going over the receiver much more cumbersome.



Metro load @ 3:35?


https://youtu.be/imY0FT4ZtBc?t=3m32s

[TCinVA]

If dismounting the gun leads to you being more efficient and more repeatable...stick with that.

Speed is nice.

Not having to remount the shotgun is nice.

...but neither of those is more important than actually accomplishing the goal.

A mounted shotgun that's empty longer because you can't reliably reload it or perform a slug select drill in a timely manner isn't really an advantage anymore.

[StraitR]

Thanks TC. That's the line of logic I was following, but wasn't sure if I was missing something.

[Dagga Boy]

So, I've still been carving out semi-regular time for dry work with the shotgun. The "metro load" was my saving grace, but I've run across a difficulty and wanted to get the opinions of others. For those with Benelli's, do you keep the shotgun mounted or not when you do a "select slug" changeover (or changing from any to any)? I want to stay solely with the one way to load (metro) for the sake of repetition, but I have difficulty pronating my wrist/elbow enough to get the new shell in the port when I leave the gun mounted. I'm much faster if I dismount the gun, drop it down between my elbow and lats (muzzle elevated) to insert the new shell via metro, then mount the gun again. When I started practicing this a few months ago, strength was an issue when doing it mounted, but it's not now, it's just a matter of getting my wrist/elbow twisted enough to get the shell in the port.

Does it matter? Mounted or dismounted? What do you do? I'm unfamiliar with the operation of other semi's, but if they work similarly, please feel free to chime in.

Sorry I missed this earlier. This is fairly simple. You either have to load, need to load or want to load. Have to load is an empty gun and you have chosen not to transition to a pistol for whatever reason. In that case, doesn’t matter where the gun is just get it loaded as efficiently as possible. This is where some of the belly up loads can come in, or straight to the chamber and then manipulate the gun where it needs to be. If it is empty...holding it mounted is useless. Need to load...you have round at least chambered but really need to top off or get transitioned to a slug or different ammo. In this case, some type of Dow range orientation is likely best. Under the armpit is fine as you are likely preparing to re-engage a fight or enter a fight. Want to load.....likely mounted as you are covering a downed individual and simply want to get back to a topped off state in case more fight is needed or comes. The gauge is very much a thinking persons gun because there is a lot going on, and multiple means to perform various tasks. Try to best fit your training to your daily reality. Ask yourself where you are most likely going to be loading and why. My answers have changed many times over the years due to different jobs or uses for the shotgun.

[03RN]

Sorry I missed this earlier. This is fairly simple. You either have to load, need to load or want to load. Have to load is an empty gun and you have chosen not to transition to a pistol for whatever reason. In that case, doesn’t matter where the gun is just get it loaded as efficiently as possible. This is where some of the belly up loads can come in, or straight to the chamber and then manipulate the gun where it needs to be. If it is empty...holding it mounted is useless. Need to load...you have round at least chambered but really need to top off or get transitioned to a slug or different ammo. In this case, some type of Dow range orientation is likely best. Under the armpit is fine as you are likely preparing to re-engage a fight or enter a fight. Want to load.....likely mounted as you are covering a downed individual and simply want to get back to a topped off state in case more fight is needed or comes. The gauge is very much a thinking persons gun because there is a lot going on, and multiple means to perform various tasks. Try to best fit your training to your daily reality. Ask yourself where you are most likely going to be loading and why. My answers have changed many times over the years due to different jobs or uses for the shotgun.

Really good info right there

[1slow]

DB, great stuff !

[StraitR]

Can someone explain the process for a slug changeover on a Beretta 1301?

[Tensaw]

Anybody else think that this thread ought to be a stickie?

[StraitR]

Can someone explain the process for a slug changeover on a Beretta 1301?

Disregard. Found the answer in the 1301 thread. Same as Benelli.

[TCinVA]

Can someone explain the process for a slug changeover on a Beretta 1301?

The 1301 has a shell cutoff which means that unless the trigger has been pulled you can cycle the bolt and no shells will pop out of the mag tube.

So what I do is:

1. Grab the bolt with my right hand, pull forcefully to the rear and maintain rearward pressure. This ejects the shell in the chamber and holds it open for the slug
2. Using my left hand (because my right is still pulling the gun back into my shoulder via the bolt handle) grab the slug from my side saddle and put it in just like I would run an emergency reload
3. Put my left hand back on the forend and release the bolt, reacquire sights, and fire

This is fast.

This is not necessarily going to be great while you are moving.

If you are on the move, the best methodology is to make some room in the mag tube using the shell release button, kick those shells out with the bolt, and then use the shell release again to load the slug.

[StraitR]

Thanks TC. I’ll give your technique a go. Trying to decide if I want the Tac or Comp.

[jwperry]

Thanks TC. I’ll give your technique a go. Trying to decide if I want the Tac or Comp.

Assuming you're going to add a red dot, get the Tac. The Comp uses a different mounting pattern and no one makes low mounts for it. I had an RMR on top of the Mesa Tactical shell holder and it was really awkward to use.

I'm not a big Aimpoint user (for some reason my astigmatism is more pronounced with their technology) but I think they had a rib mounted T1, which might work on the Comp.

[Guerrero]

Tangentially related: Mr. Gunsngear just released a video where he ranks the shotgun the worst of four home defense options, vs. pistol, PCC, and rifle

https://youtu.be/qL1s3twUA4o

[RevolverRob]

Tangentially related: Mr. Gunsngear just released a video where he ranks the shotgun the worst of four home defense options, vs. pistol, PCC, and rifle

https://youtu.be/qL1s3twUA4o

Each individual is different. In my case, the existence of a spiral staircase in my house basically dictates I need a handgun to transition from upstairs to downstairs (though my plan is basically to stay upstairs with a long gun, your head is gonna pop up at low ready height, while I'm concealed in a bedroom and it's curtains for you).

That said, I think his comparisons are a little uhh...interesting.

Handgun definitely wins on mobility, but could limit you, if you don't strap on your Bat-belt with your holster, before you head downstairs. In that scenario anything with a sling attached to it, is better.

Shotguns are not difficult to run, maybe not as easy as AR15s, but certainly not more complicated than handguns (seriously...?). Especially semi-auto shotguns.

PCC vs. AR15 - this is just do you want a 9mm or 5.56 gun (in my opinion, since most aren't buying the Ruger PCCs for defense...or shouldn't be, why complicate your life with an alternative manual of arms when AR9s work?).

But for me, I think he missed the best alternatives: pistol-caliber 'pistols', i.e., AR-pistols, CZ EVOs, blah blah blah. Why? One they are more compact than a true PCC, two shooting pistol caliber rounds they are tons quieter than a 5.56 pistol, three, they are pretty easy to suppress. If I were going to pick an accessory for defensive use I want most after a light, it's a suppressor. 147-grain HSTs from a 7-10" barrel are really close to hearing safe (close enough for auditory exclusion to work in your favor) and they hit harder out of the AR pistol than they do your Glock. Effectively, these guns are the current generation's sub-guns. We've long known that sub-guns and shotguns work quite well inside buildings and within a 100-yards.

___

Moving back to the discussion at hand - since I don't have a single shot in my life, currently, that is beyond 15-yards, I haven't even been practicing slug-select drills, because I don't think an elephant can fit in the elevator of my building. But for those of you who use a shotgun from 0-100 yards, do you have pre-determined markers that you use, or are you basically just saying, "Outside the house it's slug time?"

[TCinVA]

Moving back to the discussion at hand - since I don't have a single shot in my life, currently, that is beyond 15-yards, I haven't even been practicing slug-select drills, because I don't think an elephant can fit in the elevator of my building. But for those of you who use a shotgun from 0-100 yards, do you have pre-determined markers that you use, or are you basically just saying, "Outside the house it's slug time?"

It's going to depend on the situation.

If I was going to take shots possibly around livestock or pets, I'd keep slugs on the gun.

[ASH556]

TCinVA just wanted to say I’m currently listening to the P&S Modcast “Gauge” episode and am really enjoying your input!

[StraitR]

Assuming you're going to add a red dot, get the Tac. The Comp uses a different mounting pattern and no one makes low mounts for it. I had an RMR on top of the Mesa Tactical shell holder and it was really awkward to use.

I'm not a big Aimpoint user (for some reason my astigmatism is more pronounced with their technology) but I think they had a rib mounted T1, which might work on the Comp.

Agreed on all accounts, JW. For reasons you mentioned above, and a few others, I'm likely going with the Tac.

Adam is working on a CROM for the Comp, which will solve that issue.

[03RN]

It's going to depend on the situation.

If I was going to take shots possibly around livestock or pets, I'd keep slugs on the gun.

I'm totally comfortable taking a 50 yard shot with flight control buckshot.

I switch to slugs passed that.

[03RN]

Tangentially related: Mr. Gunsngear just released a video where he ranks the shotgun the worst of four home defense options, vs. pistol, PCC, and rifle

https://youtu.be/qL1s3twUA4o

I'll watch it tomorrow but I'll LoL right now.

If I'd never seen how effective 00 was up close and personal I might rank the shotgun last too. After seeing how much better it is than even 556 the inexperienced YouTubers just make me shake my head.

[NoLock]

Metro load @ 3:35?


https://youtu.be/imY0FT4ZtBc?t=3m32s

How would you do this as a lefty?

[1slow]

I'll watch it tomorrow but I'll LoL right now.

If I'd never seen how effective 00 was up close and personal I might rank the shotgun last too. After seeing how much better it is than even 556 the inexperienced YouTubers just make me shake my head.

Something about: 8 (00B) to 15 (1B) in a 3 inch circle at 7 yards seems definitive as a CQB stopper !

[Sammy1]

The shotgun is a fight stopper and it's versatility lends it to many self defense scenarios. You can load it up or down to suit your conditions. I can go to the local box store and buy a Maverick 88 sub $200 and use it for HD, raids or bear defense in Kodiak.

[blake_g]

TCinVA just wanted to say I’m currently listening to the P&S Modcast “Gauge” episode and am really enjoying your input!

Is that available on Spotify?? i can't seem to find it anywhere, but I've been hit on the head a LOT and been around some big, close explosions...

[Lester Polfus]

Is that available on Spotify?? i can't seem to find it anywhere, but I've been hit on the head a LOT and been around some big, close explosions...

I believe the episode we're talking about is #126, published in December of 2017.

It is 3 hours long:

Here is a link to the video version on YouTube. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HGDikyeqfQ)

Here is a link to the audio version on stitcher. (https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/matt-landfair/primary-secondary-podcasts/e/52492534)

[Erick Gelhaus]

How would you do this as a lefty?

Given the sort of oops seen at both 1:24 & 1:28 and more as well as how some (+ me) have a hard time cycling the action only half-way, I have a strong preference for doing damn near all my loading through the loading port – as a left-hander.

With the side saddle set-up as Chris has it (h/t Bill Jeans) and the stock in my armpit (h/t Louis & Scotty) … my L/H variation is:
- Support hand goes over the top of the receiver;
- Tip of the middle finger pushes up on the crimp/slug face starting it up & out of the side saddle;
- Ring finger hooks the brass, and I pull the shell out of the carrier & into my support hand with brass by the pinkie;
- Moving my right hand to the front of the trigger guard, the shell is pushed forward towards the loading port;
- Once the shell is in the port, I open my hand. If I start to lose control of the shell I simply close my hand (h/t Bill again);
- Then I rotate my hand so the fingers are toward the muzzle and my thumb can push the shell past the stops & into the magazine.

I won’t argue that only cycling the action halfway & loading through the ejection port from a match saver might well be faster. If I’m losing bandwidth at an above-average rate, I prefer a surer, more controlled for me method.

[blake_g]

I believe the episode we're talking about is #126, published in December of 2017.

It is 3 hours long:

Here is a link to the video version on YouTube. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HGDikyeqfQ)

Here is a link to the audio version on stitcher. (https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/matt-landfair/primary-secondary-podcasts/e/52492534)

Thanks!!!

[Rex G]

How would you do this as a lefty?

Perhaps it is because I am mostly-lefty, with long guns, I have not really liked side-saddle ammo carriers, since experimenting with them, a thousand years ago, er, well, in the Eighties. At work, which was night shift police patrol, until I retired, I kept spare shotgun ammo on my duty belt, in one or two Safariland two-shell carriers, and two on my right epaulet, in a Mad Dog Kydex two-shell carrier. (Long-discontinued item.) Reaching over the weapon, for spare ammo, and then moving back around to the right side, to the loading port or mag tube, seemed so very inefficient.

Of course, it is so very nice, as a lefty, that the ejection port is so well-placed.

I have a chest rig, and a small Eagle Industries “Active Shooter” bandolier, with shotgun ammo, hanging in a strategic points, at home.

Really, however, the best “reload” for an empty shotgun, is a serious fightin’ pistol, or, even better, if it is staged nearby, a second shotgun. I am not kidding; I have two M2 Benellis. (I used to really like 870 pump guns, but my pumping hand and shoulder have not aged well, so I am an autoloading shotgun guy, from now on.)

[NoLock]

Given the sort of oops seen at both 1:24 & 1:28 and more as well as how some (+ me) have a hard time cycling the action only half-way, I have a strong preference for doing damn near all my loading through the loading port – as a left-hander.

With the side saddle set-up as Chris has it (h/t Bill Jeans) and the stock in my armpit (h/t Louis & Scotty) … my L/H variation is:
- Support hand goes over the top of the receiver;
- Tip of the middle finger pushes up on the crimp/slug face starting it up & out of the side saddle;
- Ring finger hooks the brass, and I pull the shell out of the carrier & into my support hand with brass by the pinkie;
- Moving my right hand to the front of the trigger guard, the shell is pushed forward towards the loading port;
- Once the shell is in the port, I open my hand. If I start to lose control of the shell I simply close my hand (h/t Bill again);
- Then I rotate my hand so the fingers are toward the muzzle and my thumb can push the shell past the stops & into the magazine.

I won’t argue that only cycling the action halfway & loading through the ejection port from a match saver might well be faster. If I’m losing bandwidth at an above-average rate, I prefer a surer, more controlled for me method.

Thank you!

[TCinVA]

How would you do this as a lefty?

If you are a lefty you use the middle finger on your right hand to drive the shell down or up into the rest of your hand, get it into TC's patented "Flesh Cage" and then insert it into the chamber. Tough to explain on the internet, but I cover lefty loading in class.

[TCinVA]

Perhaps it is because I am mostly-lefty, with long guns, I have not really liked side-saddle ammo carriers, since experimenting with them, a thousand years ago, er, well, in the Eighties.

That's because most of them are made of a hard material where the corner of them ends up jamming you in the trigger finger using the gun lefty. The Vang Comp shell cards attached with Velcro are soft enough where they don't do that. I find people usually lose their love for a hard-sided shell carrier once I make them use the gun from their left shoulder.



Really, however, the best “reload” for an empty shotgun, is a serious fightin’ pistol, or, even better, if it is staged nearby, a second shotgun.


One of the things we do in class is time how long it takes to get a reload into the shotgun vs. getting another weapon involved. For most people with good technique it's quicker for them to get the shotgun back up and running than to get a pistol out and make an anatomically useful hit with a pistol. Especially when we consider that one well-placed round of buckshot is a sufficient dose of cease and desist to solve most problems where it's likely going to take 3-5 shots from a pistol in the goodie box to force that dude to knock it off.



I am not kidding; I have two M2 Benellis. (I used to really like 870 pump guns, but my pumping hand and shoulder have not aged well, so I am an autoloading shotgun guy, from now on.)

The only drawback to an autoloader is that each of them has their own manual of arms. Once you learn one and you really have it down, though, they're incredibly easy to run.

[Cory]

Bumping and older thread, because this contains a ton of knowledge. I just read it all.

Since a few years have passed I have a few questions, the answer to them may have changed.

What dummy shells are currently the go to? I'm pretty comfortable with shotguns, but I'm looking for dummies to get intimately familiar with the new to me Beretta action.

Who are the current go-to shotgun instructors? I assume DB, Tom Givens, and the Haughts remain the big names.

A lot has been discussed in loading. With chamber loading, side saddle brass down vs brass up, and over the top vs underneath... all discussed with awesome in depth knowledge. There was no mention of "match-savers" or similar positioned elastic bands. The 2 shell elastic positioned in that manner seem incredibly valuable to me. I'd love to hear from TCinVA Dagga Boy or others with experience.

[WobblyPossum]

TCinVA and his outfit are highly regarded for training as well now.

[Cory]

TCinVA and his outfit are highly regarded for training as well now.

I meant to include him in the obvious list as well.

[TCinVA]

Bumping and older thread, because this contains a ton of knowledge. I just read it all.

Since a few years have passed I have a few questions, the answer to them may have changed.

What dummy shells are currently the go to? I'm pretty comfortable with shotguns, but I'm looking for dummies to get intimately familiar with the new to me Beretta action.


I've not seen anything that has made me change from Fiocchi's dummies. They are holding up very well for me.



Who are the current go-to shotgun instructors? I assume DB, Tom Givens, and the Haughts remain the big names.

A lot has been discussed in loading. With chamber loading, side saddle brass down vs brass up, and over the top vs underneath... all discussed with awesome in depth knowledge. There was no mention of "match-savers" or similar positioned elastic bands. The 2 shell elastic positioned in that manner seem incredibly valuable to me. I'd love to hear from @TCinVA (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=4) @Dagga Boy (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=1336) or others with experience.

I frequently get questions about the Match Saver product. As I understand the history of the device, it was conceived in the world of three gun where being competitive required carefully planning your shotgun loading lest you lose precious seconds. If you missed or a target didn't go down when it was supposed to, you had ready access to another shell for a quick load that could literally "save" your match.

Since a speedy reload was the raison d'etre for the Match Saver, folks naturally assume it's a good option for a quick reload on a defensive scattergun.

Personally, I'm not a fan. The typical location of the Match Saver actually interferes with non-Match Saver manipulations on semi-automatic shotguns. The typical mounting location is just forward of the ejection port. This places, in effect, a ramp right in front of the bolt handle on most semi-automatic shotguns. If you attempt to charge the weapon at speed the way one would operate the bolt on other weapons with a protruding bolt handle (think M1 Garand, AK, etc) you can actually end up hitting the "ramp" of the Match Saver and overshooting the bolt handle entirely. I've seen this happen repeatedly in class with even very skilled shooters. Further, the gap between the bolt handle on your typical semi-auto and the Match Saver is small, leaving little room for error or reduced dexterity due to cold, gloves, etc.

It can also interfere with the process of getting another shell into the ejection port when loading from something besides the Match Saver itself. Granted if someone has finely honed reloads it is not going to be much of a danger...but I encounter very few people who have taken the time to finely hone that manipulation. This seems to be especially true for lefties who are already working at a slight handicap to the rest of us.

It is also a dedicated manipulation that, at best, works one time. For a dedicated three gunner that isn't a problem because they are spending considerable amounts of time working on their manipulations. Anyone who is investing the time and effort necessary to reliably quad-load their shotgun is not going to find the match saver difficult. It has been my experience, however, that most people using the shotgun for defense...even those who are pretty serious about it...are not practicing loading manipulations with anything approaching the frequency it requires to reliably master them. Adding a dedicated manipulation with no commonality to those used for the side saddle that's on their gun doesn't strike me as conducive to ensuring they can get through what's on the gun should it become necessary in an extraordinary situation where what's in the gun hasn't solved the problem.

They can be fast. And it is probably the fastest single load of a shell into the chamber of an empty gun that is possible...but, that being said, going from a side saddle is not really much slower and the side saddle is a more useful and realistic way to carry extra shells on the gun, IMO. I don't think that the slightly faster reload really justifies the drawbacks I've seen from Match Savers in use.

I don't recommend them. I certainly don't forbid them, either...but when they do show up in class and I see people struggling with them I make it a point to highlight the difficulty it is causing. I try to avoid being dogmatic about gear because generally speaking when folks are in class running their equipment they get the opportunity to see how well equipment decisions work out. Maybe my material is strange, but generally speaking when a Match Saver shows up the owner doesn't find themselves fond of it by the end of class.

As for the velcro style holders in the same location, I tried those as well and found that getting the shell out of them reliably to be tough. The options I tried weren't built like the Vang Comp shell cards and as a result they tended to die prematurely when working with dryfire and never gave me a real advantage in speed or a reliable result over using the Vang Comp side saddle.

And there again, we're talking about a dedicated manipulation for one or two shells versus one manipulation that will work for all the shells in a side saddle. If you like to dryfire and you don't care how many manipulations you learn not a big deal. Most aren't doing that obsessive level of training, though, and for them there's not much upside. All the options I tried allowed the shells to move a lot under recoil, too...so that fast load you are hoping for never really panned out because they wouldn't stick in a consistent orientation.

[bigslim]

https://www.dryfiresnapcaps.com/product-page/b-s-dry-fire-snap-caps-12ga

This is what I use

Mike

[Cory]

I've not seen anything that has made me change from Fiocchi's dummies. They are holding up very well for me.



I frequently get questions about the Match Saver product. As I understand the history of the device, it was conceived in the world of three gun where being competitive required carefully planning your shotgun loading lest you lose precious seconds. If you missed or a target didn't go down when it was supposed to, you had ready access to another shell for a quick load that could literally "save" your match.

Since a speedy reload was the raison d'etre for the Match Saver, folks naturally assume it's a good option for a quick reload on a defensive scattergun.

Personally, I'm not a fan. The typical location of the Match Saver actually interferes with non-Match Saver manipulations on semi-automatic shotguns. The typical mounting location is just forward of the ejection port. This places, in effect, a ramp right in front of the bolt handle on most semi-automatic shotguns. If you attempt to charge the weapon at speed the way one would operate the bolt on other weapons with a protruding bolt handle (think M1 Garand, AK, etc) you can actually end up hitting the "ramp" of the Match Saver and overshooting the bolt handle entirely. I've seen this happen repeatedly in class with even very skilled shooters. Further, the gap between the bolt handle on your typical semi-auto and the Match Saver is small, leaving little room for error or reduced dexterity due to cold, gloves, etc.

It can also interfere with the process of getting another shell into the ejection port when loading from something besides the Match Saver itself. Granted if someone has finely honed reloads it is not going to be much of a danger...but I encounter very few people who have taken the time to finely hone that manipulation. This seems to be especially true for lefties who are already working at a slight handicap to the rest of us.

It is also a dedicated manipulation that, at best, works one time. For a dedicated three gunner that isn't a problem because they are spending considerable amounts of time working on their manipulations. Anyone who is investing the time and effort necessary to reliably quad-load their shotgun is not going to find the match saver difficult. It has been my experience, however, that most people using the shotgun for defense...even those who are pretty serious about it...are not practicing loading manipulations with anything approaching the frequency it requires to reliably master them. Adding a dedicated manipulation with no commonality to those used for the side saddle that's on their gun doesn't strike me as conducive to ensuring they can get through what's on the gun should it become necessary in an extraordinary situation where what's in the gun hasn't solved the problem.

They can be fast. And it is probably the fastest single load of a shell into the chamber of an empty gun that is possible...but, that being said, going from a side saddle is not really much slower and the side saddle is a more useful and realistic way to carry extra shells on the gun, IMO. I don't think that the slightly faster reload really justifies the drawbacks I've seen from Match Savers in use.

I don't recommend them. I certainly don't forbid them, either...but when they do show up in class and I see people struggling with them I make it a point to highlight the difficulty it is causing. I try to avoid being dogmatic about gear because generally speaking when folks are in class running their equipment they get the opportunity to see how well equipment decisions work out. Maybe my material is strange, but generally speaking when a Match Saver shows up the owner doesn't find themselves fond of it by the end of class.

As for the velcro style holders in the same location, I tried those as well and found that getting the shell out of them reliably to be tough. The options I tried weren't built like the Vang Comp shell cards and as a result they tended to die prematurely when working with dryfire and never gave me a real advantage in speed or a reliable result over using the Vang Comp side saddle.

And there again, we're talking about a dedicated manipulation for one or two shells versus one manipulation that will work for all the shells in a side saddle. If you like to dryfire and you don't care how many manipulations you learn not a big deal. Most aren't doing that obsessive level of training, though, and for them there's not much upside. All the options I tried allowed the shells to move a lot under recoil, too...so that fast load you are hoping for never really panned out because they wouldn't stick in a consistent orientation.


Exactly the type of stuff I wondered about, and why I asked. Thanks man.

[DDTSGM]

https://www.dryfiresnapcaps.com/product-page/b-s-dry-fire-snap-caps-12ga

This is what I use

Mike

The Fiocchi's are quite a bit more inexpensive:

https://miculek.com/product/fiocchi-12inert/

The primary difference is the snap caps have the primer pocket cut and a plastic plug to cushion the firing pin, the Fiocchi Action Proving Dummies are like the old Winchester Action Proving Dummies in that they Don't have the primer pocket cut out, the firing pin rapidly dimples in the case head and doesn't cause any problems.

[Cecil Burch]

re: Matchsaver

I will echo what Tim said.

I have been running a Matchsaver on my 1301 for about two years now (since I got back from the Rangemaster Shotgun Instructor course) because I thought that if I need a reload, I will REALLY need a reload, and I wanted one as fast as possible, and this seemed to fit the bill. After spending a good deal of time coming up with the right place to mount it and making the mount as strong as possible, as I am wont to do, I went down the rabbit hole of training to get good at it. I spent 4-5 sessions a week in dry firing learning to get that round in as fast as I could ever manage. At this point, I am super confident in my ability to do so.

And now that I have done that, the MatchSaver no longer is on my gun. I have not found my hand ever running into it (though I can easily see someone doing that especially if they just slap it on and don't really practice much with it), but I concur with everything else Tim said above. I spent a boatload of time honing my ability to load that ONE SINGLE round, and there is no real carry over to other loading methods. While having a single round being able to get dumped in and fired is nice, it is more likely that at the point I need to reload after firing 7-8 rounds, I will need more than just one more, and I am going to have to go back to other ammo carriers to do so. On top of that, I have found under time that spending the same amount of time drilling in the ability of loading from a side saddle gives me a reload of less than a second slower than the magsaver, but I can keep doing that for 4-6 more rounds. So it seems a lot of buck for not much bang.

But the killer is that the attachment method sucks donkey balls. It is flimsy as hell. Every time I packed it for the range and I pulled it out to shoot, I was half-expecting the magsaver to be ripped off. It is just not strong enough for a life saving piece of equipment. My original mental argument for that was that it's main use for me was as my home defense gun when I can bunker up, so it probably would not have that outside stressor. Unfortunately, "probably", is a sucky thing to count on when my life or more importantly my family's lives may be at stake. It seems monumentally stupid to put time into practicing a single skill with a specific piece of equipment that with just a little bad luck may not be on the gun when I need it the most.

So, to sum up, for me, after two years of use, it is no on the no-go list for me.

[revchuck38]

The Fiocchi's are quite a bit more inexpensive:

https://miculek.com/product/fiocchi-12inert/

The primary difference is the snap caps have the primer pocket cut and a plastic plug to cushion the firing pin, the Fiocchi Action Proving Dummies are like the old Winchester Action Proving Dummies in that they Don't have the primer pocket cut out, the firing pin rapidly dimples in the case head and doesn't cause any problems.

I've been looking for a source for those, thanks!

[NPV]

While we’re on the topic of emergency reloads, what is a good goal time to have? I’m just trying to gauge (pun intended) my current emergency reload skill level to that of more experienced thunderstick toters.

[Cory]

Your puns make me recoil.

[TCinVA]

While we’re on the topic of emergency reloads, what is a good goal time to have? I’m just trying to gauge (pun intended) my current emergency reload skill level to that of more experienced thunderstick toters.

On a pump gun, under 2 is doing pretty good.

I usually hover around 1.35-1.5 seconds.

On the 1301 I'm a skosh faster at 1.1-1.3 seconds.

I'm doing this from a Vang Comp side saddle.

[Balisong]

The Fiocchi's are quite a bit more inexpensive:

https://miculek.com/product/fiocchi-12inert/

The primary difference is the snap caps have the primer pocket cut and a plastic plug to cushion the firing pin, the Fiocchi Action Proving Dummies are like the old Winchester Action Proving Dummies in that they Don't have the primer pocket cut out, the firing pin rapidly dimples in the case head and doesn't cause any problems.

Thank you for the link! Ordered 2 boxes. Brownells is out of them.

And thanks to TCINVA, I was getting ready to ask about your dummy round preferences myself. I know I read them before but couldn't remember your recommendation. I really can't wait to get some formal shotgun training.

[GyroF-16]

On a pump gun, under 2 is doing pretty good.

I usually hover around 1.35-1.5 seconds.

On the 1301 I'm a skosh faster at 1.1-1.3 seconds.

I'm doing this from a Vang Comp side saddle.

What are the start/end points for this timing? That is, is it
(bang) reload (bang) in 1.XX seconds
-or-
with bolt locked back (beep) reload (bolt forward with round chambered)?

Or something else?

[TCinVA]

What are the start/end points for this timing? That is, is it
(bang) reload (bang) in 1.XX seconds
-or-
with bolt locked back (beep) reload (bolt forward with round chambered)?

Or something else?

It's based on a demo I do in class. One round in the gun. From low ready, fire a shot, perform a reload, fire another shot. This all happens in under 2 seconds. The split between the two shots is the reload time. Total time includes presentation to first shot.

Similar to what is seen in this video:

https://www.facebook.com/134979619866863/videos/604337416940000