Best trigger pull for compeition shooting?

[randyflycaster]

I have a CZ 85b. Right now it has a 5lb trigger pull. I'm wondering what it the optimal trigger pull for competitive shooting. I understand that a light trigger pull means I can't use the gun for anything other than target shooting.

I can lower the SA trigger pull to 4lbs by changing the hammer spring and the firing pin. Don't know how big a difference this would make.

Thanks,

Randy

[Peally]

It doesn't matter.

Seriously.

[PhillySoldier]

I can lower the SA trigger pull to 4lbs by changing the hammer spring and the firing pin. Don't know how big a difference this would make.


Changing the hammer spring will primarily effect your DA action. In SA mode the hammer spring is compressed so putting a lighter spring isnt really going to make it compress further.

[PhillySoldier]

That you intend to lower the main spring to such a degree that it is misfiring and having light primer strikes that you need to change to an extended firing pin is not a good idea. And as said above changing your main/hammer spring will primarily affect your DA pull although it will slightly affect your SA pull. Im not as familar with CZ's as I am Sigs so I dont know whats stock and what its being lowered to etc. I would however recommend you send your CZ to a known smith such as CZCustom or CajunGunWorks and get one of there trigger packages which will be primarily them smoothing and adjusting your trigger parts and not just lowering the tolerances of your main spring.

[Clusterfrack]

You can do quite a bit to your CZ to improve it for competition without getting light strikes. Most stock CZ triggers aren't ideal for competition. DA is too heavy and SA has a lot of creep. A lighter mainspring will have a big effect, but you'll likely need to change the FP spring, and some other parts. A reduced power trigger return spring helps as well. You can do it yourself (see http://forums.brianenos.com/topic/191773-cz-tuning-101-with-professor-atlas/) or have it done at CGW or CZC. I'm leery of altering sear geometry on OEM parts. If it was my gun, I would order CGW parts or have them do it.

[DT Guy]

It doesn't matter.

Seriously.

That's why high level competitors always use stock triggers, whatever the weight.

Oh, wait.... :)


Larry

[Peally]

That's why high level competitors always use stock triggers, whatever the weight.

Oh, wait.... :)


Larry

You're right, my trigger is what's holding me back from making GM ;)

Until you're at a stupidly high tier (or you truly have a dumpster fire of a trigger) it's all academic internet gear chat and something to burn excess income on. That's fine but it sure as hell isn't the reason people's scores are low. Heck, even at god tier shooting it's more convenience than critical.

[Leroy]

I have a CZ 85b. Right now it has a 5lb trigger pull. I'm wondering what it the optimal trigger pull for competitive shooting. I understand that a light trigger pull means I can't use the gun for anything other than target shooting.

I can lower the SA trigger pull to 4lbs by changing the hammer spring and the firing pin. Don't know how big a difference this would make.

Thanks,

Randy

There really is no "optimal", it's shooter preference. The CZ pistols are capable of really nice triggers that light most primers. You will need a CZ competition hammer, 13 lb hammer spring, extended firing pin, Rami firing pin spring, and a reduced power trigger spring (I personally don't like reduced power trigger return springs in most pistols). This setup will probably get 3 lbs single action with improved characteristics (less creep, which is from the shorter hooks on the hammer). You can go lighter but it will require certain primers.

[wtturn]

Lighter is better, obviously, but not to the extent that it negatively affects reliability.

It's easy to go way too far down the rabbit hole of trigger "improvement" when your time would have been better spent training.

[HopetonBrown]

My friend is a USPSA Master with a CZ from CZ Custom. His DA is 5# and SA is 2#.



I have a CZ 85b. Right now it has a 5lb trigger pull. I'm wondering what it the optimal trigger pull for competitive shooting.

[Clusterfrack]

Around 5 or 6 lbs DA is reasonable for a USPSA Production gun. But to me the quality of the SA is much more important, and not just the trigger weight. Personally, I do not like “surprise breaks”, and prefer some pretravel, a crisp break, and a crisp reset. I’d much rather have a 4 lb trigger like that than a 2 lb trigger without a distinct break and reset.

[LSP552]

Around 5 or 6 lbs DA is reasonable for a USPSA Production gun. But to me the quality of the SA is much more important, and not just the trigger weight. Personally, I do not like “surprise breaks”, and prefer some pretravel, a crisp break, and a crisp reset. I’d much rather have a 4 lb trigger like that than a 2 lb trigger without a distinct break and reset.

Bruce Gray expressed that same opinion to me during one of his classes. I totally agree with a having a predictable trigger.

[DT Guy]

You're right, my trigger is what's holding me back from making GM ;)

Until you're at a stupidly high tier (or you truly have a dumpster fire of a trigger) it's all academic internet gear chat and something to burn excess income on. That's fine but it sure as hell isn't the reason people's scores are low. Heck, even at god tier shooting it's more convenience than critical.


So your contention is that anyone below a 'stupidly high tier' will shoot as well with a DA revolver as a stock 1911. One handed. At 25 yards. Quickly.

Sure, absolutely.


Larry

[Peally]

So your contention is that anyone below a 'stupidly high tier' will shoot as well with a DA revolver as a stock 1911. One handed. At 25 yards. Quickly.

Sure, absolutely.


Larry

https://ishouldbewashingclothes.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/miss-the-point.png?w=300&h=300

[HopetonBrown]

One handed. At 25 yards. Quickly.


What's the name of that classifier, it doesn't ring a bell.

[Bummy425]

Lighter is better, obviously, but not to the extent that it negatively affects reliability.

It's easy to go way too far down the rabbit hole of trigger "improvement" when your time would have been better spent training.THIS

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Bummy425]

Bruce Gray expressed that same opinion to me during one of his classes. I totally agree with a having a predictable trigger.AND THIS

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[DT Guy]

https://ishouldbewashingclothes.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/miss-the-point.png?w=300&h=300

Explain then, oh wise one-you contended weight of pull didn't matter; I suggested that it might. Elaborate-

Larry

[DT Guy]

What's the name of that classifier, it doesn't ring a bell.

You've never shot a match requiring such a shot? You should get out more.


Larry

[wtturn]

Calm your tits, Larry.

[Peally]

Explain then, oh wise one-you contended weight of pull didn't matter; I suggested that it might. Elaborate-

Larry

Because we're talking about "tuning" an already perfectly serviceable trigger, not comparing an 18th century cannon to a modern 1911. But you either know that and just like retarded internet arguments for the sake of arguing or you're exceptionally dense.

[RJ]

You've never shot a match requiring such a shot? You should get out more.


Larry

I’ll try.

Hi Larry, welcome to p-f.

I think what’s trying to be said is that, for most of us struggling Production U/D/C and probably B/A Shooters, having a light tuned 2lb trigger vs. a TDA press isn’t really going to affect your score all that much.

At least as opposed, say, to shooting Mikes, No Shoots, D’s instead of A’s, muffing reloads, shooting to slide lock, leaving steel, borking a stage plan, and so forth.

For most shooters, those things will probably outweigh the importance of a particular trigger enough that they ought to be working on first avoiding mistakes, rather than their equipment.

[DT Guy]

I’ll try.

Hi Larry, welcome to p-f.

I think what’s trying to be said is that, for most of us struggling Production U/D/C and probably B/A Shooters, having a light tuned 2lb trigger vs. a TDA press isn’t really going to affect your score all that much.

At least as opposed, say, to shooting Mikes, No Shoots, D’s instead of A’s, muffing reloads, shooting to slide lock, leaving steel, borking a stage plan, and so forth.

For most shooters, those things will probably outweigh the importance of a particular trigger enough that they ought to be working on first avoiding mistakes, rather than their equipment.

I wouldn't contend any of those things; but the OP asked about the 'best trigger pull for competition', and I responded to a comment stating it didn't matter. Because I was, apparently, talking about cannon (??) instead of modern DA or untuned striker triggers.

Larry

[DT Guy]

Because we're talking about "tuning" an already perfectly serviceable trigger, not comparing an 18th century cannon to a modern 1911. But you either know that and just like retarded internet arguments for the sake of arguing or you're exceptionally dense.

I'm new on this forum; anybody know where the 'ignore' button is hidden?


Larry

[RJ]

I wouldn't contend any of those things; but he OP asked about the 'best trigger pull for competition', and I responded to a comment stating it didn't matter. Because I was, apparently, talking about cannon (??) instead of modern DA or untuned striker triggers.

Larry

The OP also asked how much difference it would make.

The general consensus was (and imho, is) “not much, for the average competition shooter”.

YMMV, and that’s ok.

[Peally]

I'm new on this forum; anybody know where the 'ignore' button is hidden?


Larry

Click the name, click View Profile, click Add to Ignore List. You'll need it, I'm not nearly the most blunt person here.

[DT Guy]

DT Guy/Larry, please tone it down a bit. Thanks.

Sure will. Pealy getting asked, also?

Larry

[Clusterfrack]

If your goal is to progress in USPSA beyond C class, you need to be able to shoot well, and do it fairly quickly. You might even be competitive in A class just by being able to shoot mostly As, and not miss steel or hit no shoots.

I hope we can all agree that good trigger control is a very important part of shooting well. It’s easier to control a good trigger than a not so good one. That’s one reason why 2011s are not allowed in Production class, and all the lim and open guns have awesome triggers.

Sure, you can go all the way to GM with a Glock, but that’s not the easiest path by far.

I’ve seen small but significant improvements each time I “upgraded” to a gun with a better trigger. I’ll take any advantage I can because my competitors are too.

[GJM]

I have found my greatest gains in USPSA from committing to shooting into and out of position, and on the move. I prefer the Walther Q5 trigger, but am currently shooting a 34 MOS with a pretty basic trigger as it reliably holds two more rounds, doesn’t have the potential of a dead trigger from the sear releasing and it reloads easier. In my experience, USPSA field courses are not that gun differentiating.

[wtturn]

If your goal is to progress in USPSA beyond C class, you need to be able to shoot well, and do it fairly quickly. You might even be competitive in A class just by being able to shoot mostly As, and not miss steel or hit no shoots.

I hope we can all agree that good trigger control is a very important part of shooting well. It’s easier to control a good trigger than a not so good one. That’s one reason why 2011s are not allowed in Production class, and all the lim and open guns have awesome triggers.

Sure, you can go all the way to GM with a Glock, but that’s not the easiest path by far.

I’ve seen small but significant improvements each time I “upgraded” to a gun with a better trigger. I’ll take any advantage I can because my competitors are too.Good post. Except the Glock GM thing.

Yeah, it took a lot of work but in hindsight it wouldn't have been any faster or easier with a CZ or Tanfo.

[45dotACP]

Doesn't Shane Coley run a Glock in Limited? Didn't he and Vogel take 1st and 3rd in iron sight nats?

Granted, their triggers are tuned by Smiths...but then so are their 2011 sporting competition.

My Gen 3 G34 runs around 4.5lbs...a full two pounds lighter than my Gen 4 17...between which I see minimal difference in timed drills and classifiers.

Both of which I shot better than or equal to a Beretta with a 3.5lb SA trigger.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Clusterfrack]

Interesting discussion, and it underscores how each of us has our own preferences for guns. My G34 has a nice DK Customs trigger and is light enough that I had to use Federal primers. I still—personally—prefer a tuned p320 trigger, and even more so a Shadow 2. Many other variables there than the trigger though, so it’s hard to isolate.

I guess I don’t disagree with anything from the last few posts—except the easy part of making GM. I’m training for my G card, and it’s a shit ton of hard work. There is nothing easy about shooting hundos on demand, and being competitive at the M level is a challenge, let alone at G. The least helpful ‘advice’ I hear is ‘it’s not that hard’. I guess it’s all how we approach the sport differently that makes it so much fun?

[ranger]

I have found my greatest gains in USPSA from committing to shooting into and out of position, and on the move. I prefer the Walther Q5 trigger, but am currently shooting a 34 MOS with a pretty basic trigger as it reliably holds two more rounds, doesn’t have the potential of a dead trigger from the sear releasing and it reloads easier. In my experience, USPSA field courses are not that gun differentiating.

Wow - thread drift - but I find it interesting GJM with all the pistols you have tried that you have rotated back to the G34. I always thought of the G34 as "the" Production pistol but is has been challenged with the steel frame TDAs and other polymer competitors.

[Leroy]

Wow - thread drift - but I find it interesting GJM with all the pistols you have tried that you have rotated back to the G34. I always thought of the G34 as "the" Production pistol but is has been challenged with the steel frame TDAs and other polymer competitors.

The problem with the G34 is IPSC. IPSC requires a barrel no longer than 5" and ALL parts except grips, grip tape, and sights, have to be factory available. To shoot IPSC with a Glock it will be a G17 with minus connector, stock RSA, no grip plug, no stippling permitted. For shooters looking to dominate the World that is a turn off. This is one of the reasons Vogel went to Limited/Standard.

[GJM]

I love shooting different pistols, but what stands between me and improving my performance doesn’t have anything to do with equipment.

[BN]

I think having a good trigger is more important to the beginner than the experienced shooter. A high level shooter can shoot most anything. A beginner needs all the help they can get.

[Peally]

The least helpful ‘advice’ I hear is ‘it’s not that hard’. I guess it’s all how we approach the sport differently that makes it so much fun?

On paper it's technically "easy" as in completely doable and physically possible for a good shooter. It's having that level of performance on demand, cold, constantly, that's a real bitcharooniedoonie.

[Zincwarrior]

I’ll try.

Hi Larry, welcome to p-f.

I think what’s trying to be said is that, for most of us struggling Production U/D/C and probably B/A Shooters, having a light tuned 2lb trigger vs. a TDA press isn’t really going to affect your score all that much.

At least as opposed, say, to shooting Mikes, No Shoots, D’s instead of A’s, muffing reloads, shooting to slide lock, leaving steel, borking a stage plan, and so forth.

For most shooters, those things will probably outweigh the importance of a particular trigger enough that they ought to be working on first avoiding mistakes, rather than their equipment.
I don't understand the argument. getting a light trigger does not preclude one from practicing.

[Zincwarrior]

I'm new on this forum; anybody know where the 'ignore' button is hidden?


Larry

Become a paying member and we'll tell you. :)

[Zincwarrior]

Sure will. Pealy getting asked, also?

Larry

Peally has a dog avatar. That gives you special privileges.

[RJ]

I don't understand the argument. getting a light trigger does not preclude one from practicing.

Mebbe, but spending time in discussion boards debating the merits of a lightened trigger does kinda take time away from practicing. :cool:

[Zincwarrior]

Mebbe, but spending time in discussion boards debating the merits of a lightened trigger does kinda take time away from practicing. :cool:

Your use of facts and logic have no place here. This is the internet!

[Norville]

Mebbe, but spending time in discussion boards debating the merits of a lightened trigger does kinda take time away from practicing. :cool:

Everyone wants to buy improvement, usually at the expense of training and practice. One sees it time and time again at local matches.

[RJ]

Everyone wants to buy improvement, usually at the expense of training and practice. One sees it time and time again at local matches.

Troof.

[Gio]

That's why high level competitors always use stock triggers, whatever the weight.

Oh, wait.... :)


Larry

I've recently gone back to a stock trigger on my G34 because I got tired of issues with after market strikers/trigger work on my Glocks. Amazingly, my accuracy and performance in matches and standard drills hasn't changed at all.

[MistWolf]

Your use of facts and logic have no place here. This is the internet!
Hello! Dog avatar...!

[Jesting Devil]

For context: I'm currently about 81% - A class, my experience has been all Glock until a few months ago when I switched to a tuned CZ SP01, 5.5# DA 2.5# SA. Once I got used to the gun, my classifier scores and match positions have gone up slightly, mostly because I'm just more confident with the CZ which results in more confident/aggressive shooting.

I think a predictable, clean trigger of reasonable weight is all you need to do very well shooting most drills. Where trigger weight does make a difference is in split speed. Obviously how important that is is a whole other issue but with a glock, I have a very hard time breaking .19ish splits, with the CZ .12-.13 is not uncommon. That may not be much in reality but in a 12 round classifier, the .72 second difference could be 10% or more on a high hit factor stage. I also believe the way the ergonomics/trigger reach fit your hand play into this as well.

So what's the "best"? The shortest, lightest pull that will reliably ignite ammo (with all other factors are equal). Does it account for some performance difference? Yes. Should that be the only (or even a major) determining factor in your selection? Almost certainly not.

[NH Shooter]

Was the type of "competition" ever defined in this thread?

For precision shooting such as Bullseye, PPC and Bianchi Cup, a lighter/smoother/crisper trigger pull is by far the norm. In defensive pistol competition such as IDPA, not so much. So it really depends entirely on the kind of "competitive shooting" you are doing and the level of speed vs. accuracy it calls for: hitting the X-ring of a B27 at 150 feet with a generous time limit requires a somewhat different practiced skill set and equipment selection than hosing the A-zone of an IDPA target at 30 feet.

For the defensive type usually discussed here, I think "smooth" and "consistent" are the desired trigger pull attributes, the actual pull weight is secondary. At least for me, my goal is to use a pistol I would carry for defensive purposes in a competitive environment to enhance my defensive shooting skills with that pistol. So in that regard, it truly does not matter - you learn to master the trigger that your defensive pistol is equipped with.

Of course there are those who "game" defensive pistol competition with trigger enhancements, so perhaps the better question to ask is how light/smooth/crisp of a trigger pull is acceptable (or one is comfortable with) for a defensive pistol?

[Jim Watson]

Around 5 or 6 lbs DA is reasonable for a USPSA Production gun. But to me the quality of the SA is much more important, and not just the trigger weight. Personally, I do not like “surprise breaks”, and prefer some pretravel, a crisp break, and a crisp reset. I’d much rather have a 4 lb trigger like that than a 2 lb trigger without a distinct break and reset.

Which I understand to be the basis for CZ - TZ gains in popularity.
IPSC Production requires a minimum 5 lb first shot trigger pull.
So, better a smooth DA start followed by a couple dozen 3 lb crisp SA than a mushy 5 lb Safety Trigger all the time.
The idea is spreading in USPSA even without the pull requirement.

Yes, I know about top shooters with Glocks and such things with limited scope for improvement over duty weapon triggers.
And I know what Gil Hebard said about beginning bullseye shooters who don't need a finely accurized pistol until they can quit flinching away ten points per string.
I am in the middle ground, and yes, I can buy a few points with a "match" trigger, light and crisp or even light and smooth like my Burwell S&W. I can even buy points by shooting IDPA ESP with .45 midrange and clipping a few extra scoring lines with the big bullet.

[Clusterfrack]

I also think that you can buy confidence, and it is a huge advantage in USPSA to shoot fearlessly and with certainty that you can make any shot. If one trigger type does that for you, I’d say it’s worth the cost. If you have that confidence with any gun—even better.

[kmanick]

I got a new Shadow 2 a couple of months ago. Like night and day going from an M&P Performance Center 9L to a CZ. I shoot much much better than I ever have with any other gun with my Shadow 2.
I saw all of the "lighten this tune that blah,blah blah" and actually got the 13lb spring ,extended firing pin and return spring....................and one month later I haven't taken them out of the package yet.
1200 rounds later , my DA is nice and smooth and as someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, "I prefer a little take up with a nice crisp break, no surprises" . I have that now and am shooting better than I ever
imagined I could and getting even better by the day. I 've actually decided to throw the Apex forward set sear/trigger package into my M&P as that trigger (even for a so called "competition gun")
is horrid compared to the stock shadow trigger. Nice take up and crisp break , but the break is still over 6 pounds with 1500 rounds through it.
I've started USPSA competition /steel challenges/steel Plate comps/Bowling bin competitions... basically anything I can get too, and I improve a little bit more every time I go out.
Maybe at some point an STI, a real "race gun" would benefit me but right now...I'm not there yet. I think any SA trigger that is crisp with a 3-4 pound pull is sufficient for anyone to shoot accurately.
If it fast enough at that weight? I don't know I haven't been able to shoot faster than my gun allows yet, if I ever get there i will re evaluate.

[dbateman]

I like a 3lb trigger, I run that weight on most of my guns that have been across a smiths bench.
Three pound for me is light enough but not too light, I can still fell it when I’m excited.
I experimented with lighter.

That being said, I am in the it doesn’t matter to much crowd.
As long as it’s not too heavy or gritty and is repeatable you should be ok with a stock trigger.

[ranger]

I got a new Shadow 2 a couple of months ago. Like night and day going from an M&P Performance Center 9L to a CZ. I shoot much much better than I ever have with any other gun with my Shadow 2.
I saw all of the "lighten this tune that blah,blah blah" and actually got the 13lb spring ,extended firing pin and return spring....................and one month later I haven't taken them out of the package yet.
1200 rounds later , my DA is nice and smooth and as someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, "I prefer a little take up with a nice crisp break, no surprises" . I have that now and am shooting better than I ever
imagined I could and getting even better by the day. I 've actually decided to throw the Apex forward set sear/trigger package into my M&P as that trigger (even for a so called "competition gun")
is horrid compared to the stock shadow trigger. Nice take up and crisp break , but the break is still over 6 pounds with 1500 rounds through it.
I've started USPSA competition /steel challenges/steel Plate comps/Bowling bin competitions... basically anything I can get too, and I improve a little bit more every time I go out.
Maybe at some point an STI, a real "race gun" would benefit me but right now...I'm not there yet. I think any SA trigger that is crisp with a 3-4 pound pull is sufficient for anyone to shoot accurately.
If it fast enough at that weight? I don't know I haven't been able to shoot faster than my gun allows yet, if I ever get there i will re evaluate.

I shoot M&Ps with a couple of other M&P shooters - 6lb M&P trigger with APEX parts seem high. Sometimes there is a tolerance issue, etc. - out of multiple M&Ps, I had one M&P Gen 1 FS 9mm that would not "work" (work = I did not like the trigger feel, it fired) with an APEX FSS trigger package due to such tolerance issues and I pulled the FSS trigger out and went back to the OEM hinged trigger with better results. You should be able to get a 4 to 5.5 lb pull with a M&P with just the APEX USB and SEAR.

[kmanick]

I shoot M&Ps with a couple of other M&P shooters - 6lb M&P trigger with APEX parts seem high. Sometimes there is a tolerance issue, etc. - out of multiple M&Ps, I had one M&P Gen 1 FS 9mm that would not "work" (work = I did not like the trigger feel, it fired) with an APEX FSS trigger package due to such tolerance issues and I pulled the FSS trigger out and went back to the OEM hinged trigger with better results. You should be able to get a 4 to 5.5 lb pull with a M&P with just the APEX USB and SEAR.

No apex parts in there yet that was stock with just a ram installed. I dropped it off with my gunsmith yesterday with the Apex flat face forward Trigger sear set.
When I pick it up if it's not ...."there it is" nice I will sell it. My buddy went crazy buying and trying stuff this winter and he has a Wilson combat Beretta
and a Shadow SP-01 Target II that are not seeing much use yet that I could score off of him. I bought the M&P for open optics division "stuff" but I just found out that
the CZ custom shop has dovetail Optics mount that works with my shield sight so the Target II would probably be the one I go to.
I do not like the feel of the hinged stock trigger at all anymore so flat faced trigger is a must.
My Shadow II has really spoiled me
I hope the M&P works out though, I've been shooting M&Ps for a couple of years now and I have the comp holster belt etc. all set up for it already