HK P30 LEM 9mm 2 Failures to extract with CCI Blazer Aluminum

[1slow]

I was shooting my HK P30 LEM 9mm and had 2 failures to extract case from chamber with 9mm Blazer aluminum case.

Background:
P30 was dirty from 2000+ rounds of which about 700 were aluminum case Blazer 115gr bullet. This is my practice pistol.
Failure to extract using 2 different known good magazines with Blazer ammo.
After these 2 failures to extract I loaded several magazines with Sellier & Bellot 124gr and had no problems.

In the past I have shot this and other P30 9mm 5000 + rounds without cleaning and had no problems.

My guess is that the aluminum case ammo is more likely, than brass case ammo, to stick in the chamber in a dirty P30.

I will try the Aluminum Blazer in the same P30 after cleaning and see what happens.

Any thoughts ?

[David S.]

Unpossible. ;)

I had a couple FTFs at a recent class with mine. Relatively clean gun and I taprackbanged myself back into action, so I have no idea what caused them. I've since switched to my P2000 for unrelated reasons.

On the one hand I'm free of any delusion that my gun is perfectly reliable, because H&K. OTOH, I should probably look into this.

[Ichiban]

I've found Blazer Aluminum to be "sub-optimal" in just about every gun I've ever shot it in.
YMMV

[Bodhi]

I've found Blazer Aluminum to be "sub-optimal" in just about every gun I've ever shot it in.
YMMV

Same. I hate cleaning up after the stuff too. More of a mess (mucho) compared to brass. I haven’t bought a box in many years now.
The stuff reminds me of someone buying a Porsche or Ferrari then going to the pump and buying the cheapest 87 octane you can find.

[JSGlock34]

IIRC the P30 manual specifically says no aluminum or steel cased ammunition.

ETA: It came up in the first week of Todd's endurance test.

Pistol-Training.com: P30 Thursday: Week One (https://pistol-training.com/archives/1434)

We did have one bobble with the Blazer. The P30 manual clearly states that aluminum and steel case ammunition should not be used. True to their word, a combination of inadvertent thumb pressure on the slide and the not-recommended ammunition led to a double feed. I was able to reproduce the problem with that ammo only so long as I pressed against the slide. While it’s certainly unfortunate that the P30 is incompatible with such a common practice load, because the ammo was not within the P30’s specifications we’re not counting it against the gun.

[GJM]

Thought someone (Vinh?) in TLG’s Rogers class had problems with Blazer in their P30?

[dkv]

IIRC the P30 manual specifically says no aluminum or steel cased ammunition.

I guess I should have read that. I had a number of stuck cases of wolf, including one that had to be doweled out. I got spoiled by my 2000sk, which reliably feeds, fires, extracts, and ejects all manner of 9mm.

[ccssid]

Each and every time I have used CCI Blazer aluminum in my Walther CCP, many ftf and fte. My Shield is able to handle them....at least up to this point. Problem is I bought a slew of boxes when PSA had a very good sale .......shame on me

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

[Alembic]

Aluminum and steel cased Blazer, Fed and Tula will fail to extract in my USPc. After the malfunction I've pulled the remaining rounds from the mag, put them in a glock 19 and 17 gen 3s and had zero issue. I attributed it to a tight HK chamber, low power ammo and greater friction with steel and alum. over brass. Just a guess.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I've had less than stellar results from the aluminum cases stuff as well in general.

My p30 and both p2000 pistols run the animal brands of ammo fine, though ymmv.

I expect it's a combo of the case and that loading being a bit weak.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1slow]

I'll clean regularly and shoot it up and save the better ammo for later. Up to about round 700 was OK.

I will not depend on it though.

Thanks guys.

[PD Sgt.]

I may be the odd man out here, but I have never had a problem with the Blazer aluminum in my P30sk or my P2000 through literally thousands of rounds (mix of 115 and 124 grain). For quite a while it was our department provided training ammunition. I also have run a few hundred of the Winchester steel case without issue through the P30sk just to see how it would do. While it did not show any failures to function, accuracy was terrible.

I have also run thousands of rounds of the aluminum in outside training classes and never had a problem, mostly through Glocks. It is not match grade accurate, but it has never caused me any issues either. Sample size of one.

[hufnagel]

I bought a case of that 3578 stuff back when ammo prices were a bit nutty (2012), and while I don't remember any extraction, feed, or ignition problems, I didn't like the sparks nor did I find the accuracy all that great shuffling them through my P30. Haven't bought any since.

[BillSWPA]

No problems with aluminum cased ammo through a Glock, after several hundred rounds at least. I clean my guns as soon after shooting as I can.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GlockenSpiel]

Any thoughts ?

Clean your pistol next time. ;-)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[JodyH]

When I was doing a lot of shooting with a P30 9mm a few years ago I found that the following three did not like to extract and/or feed in the stepped chamber.
Blazer aluminum
Russian steel
Aguila 124gr.

Winchester Value-Pack 9mm tends to have case rims and extractor grooves that are all over the place out of spec.. I stopped using it years ago after frequent extraction issues with pretty much every pistol I owned from a Gen 1 Glock 17 to my wife's PPQ and my P2000s, all of which were usually as reliable as sledge hammers.

MagTech is my "go to" FMJ these days, in both 115 and 124 I've found it to be consistent and reliable.
I also like S&B and RWS.

[JonInWA]

I've used Federal Champion 180gr Aluminum .40 in both my P30L and VP40 without any adverse effects or stumbling -BUT- I clean and lubricate my firearms after use, and leave a final light film of Weapon Shield in my chambers and barrels. It may be noteworthy that I've also never fired more than 150 rounds of it in a session. While I've never chrono'ed the .40 Federal Champion, I know that their 9mm is loaded towards the light side.

While I don't use the aluminum-cased stuff for "important" matches, it has performed with zero operational issues for me for practice and local matches. Otherwise, I'll step up to American Eagle, with it's heavier loading and bass cases.

As others have mentioned, HK specifically recommends against use of aluminum- and/or steel-cased ammunition, suggesting it can induce functional issues, and in speaking with Federal Ammunition, they recommend tha brass-cased ammunition will likely work better in weapons due to how it fire-forms to the chamber and eases extraction.

Best, Jon

[JTQ]

When I was doing a lot of shooting with a P30 9mm a few years ago ...

Did I see some thread/post where you are currently shooting a P30 in .40S&W? If so, any ammo issues with the .40S&W?

[JodyH]

Did I see some thread/post where you are currently shooting a P30 in .40S&W? If so, any ammo issues with the .40S&W?
I have a P30L in .40.
All I've ever fed it is Federal HST, Winchester "purple box" and Underwood Penetrators.
100% reliable with all of them.

[Dagga Boy]

No problems with aluminum cased ammo through a Glock, after several hundred rounds at least. I clean my guns as soon after shooting as I can.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Does your Glock have a stepped chamber and capable of 1" accuracy......or do you need to buy a special barrel for match level accuracy? If you want to shoot non NATO spec crap ammo reliably, I highly recommend not shooting HK's. Current HK stuff is also sprung for modern loading that are much different than 115 grain training loads. One huge benefit I found to the stepped chamber is it will not chamber out of spec stuff, and won't fire it out of battery. For me, these are all benefits.

If shooting aluminum cases Blazer and steel cases ammo is a priority, HK is not for you. This is like the folks who insisted on shooting lead "training" ammunition in the old days and the P7's sucked because they got messed up shooting lead ammo. Thankfully, there are many choices out there for things that will shoot "budget" ammunition.

[1slow]

DB, I agree I have never had any trouble with any reasonably warm brass case ammo in HK P30 or USP.

They do not like weak loads. That is fine. I use the aluminum for ranges where picking up brass is problematic.

[Bodhi]

Does your Glock have a stepped chamber and capable of 1" accuracy......or do you need to buy a special barrel for match level accuracy? If you want to shoot non NATO spec crap ammo reliably, I highly recommend not shooting HK's. Current HK stuff is also sprung for modern loading that are much different than 115 grain training loads. One huge benefit I found to the stepped chamber is it will not chamber out of spec stuff, and won't fire it out of battery. For me, these are all benefits.

If shooting aluminum cases Blazer and steel cases ammo is a priority, HK is not for you. This is like the folks who insisted on shooting lead "training" ammunition in the old days and the P7's sucked because they got messed up shooting lead ammo. Thankfully, there are many choices out there for things that will shoot "budget" ammunition.

Totally agree. Someone posting a reminder about these pistols being designed for NATO spec rounds reminds me of the Gen 4 Glock release. Some/alot of the folks having issues were loading weak ammo. I never had a problem with my first set of gen 4’s as all I run is NATO or 124gr loadings. Having owned Sphinx SDP’s and HK’s, both preferring hot loads, I just started doing that with all semis. Having converted from 357sig after almost 20 years, where your FMJ and JHP loadings are the same (no +p), running 124gr FMJ, and 124gr +p HST’s, best for me to make the training ammo as close as I can to mimic the defensive load.

Great reminder DB.

[GJM]

Mr_White


When I was doing a lot of shooting with a P30 9mm a few years ago I found that the following three did not like to extract and/or feed in the stepped chamber.
Blazer aluminum
Russian steel
Aguila 124gr.

Winchester Value-Pack 9mm tends to have case rims and extractor grooves that are all over the place out of spec.. I stopped using it years ago after frequent extraction issues with pretty much every pistol I owned from a Gen 1 Glock 17 to my wife's PPQ and my P2000s, all of which were usually as reliable as sledge hammers.

MagTech is my "go to" FMJ these days, in both 115 and 124 I've found it to be consistent and reliable.
I also like S&B and RWS.


Pretty sure Gabe had two or three squib loads with his last case of Magtech.

[JodyH]

Mr_White
Pretty sure Gabe had two or three squib loads with his last case of Magtech.
I've had squibs/duds/nuclear rounds in just about every brand.
I've shot enough MagTech without any issues that I trust it more than any other brand currently.
YMMV.

[GJM]

I've had squibs/duds/nuclear rounds in just about every brand.
I've shot enough MagTech without any issues that I trust it more than any other brand currently.
YMMV.

Wow, I have never had a squib load with factory ammo. What other brands have you experienced squib loads with?

[RJ]

Mr_White




Pretty sure Gabe had two or three squib loads with his last case of Magtech.

I’m pretty sure he had a few at the Columbia Cascade match I videod for him in Dundee OR. Amazingly he still won the match.

[Mr_White]

IÂ’m pretty sure he had a few at the Columbia Cascade match I videod for him in Dundee OR. Amazingly he still won the match.

I shot American Eagle 124gr at that match, which is the (non-carry) ammo I generally have the most confidence in. I had a big nasty doublefeed at that match, but I never have felt like I knew the cause. I have not had any squibs with American Eagle. I did have two squib loads recently in a case of MagTech 115gr and I don't plan to buy any more of that brand for now. Too bad, I liked it otherwise. I'd shoot it again, but I'd pick something else if possible.

[JodyH]

Wow, I have never had a squib load with factory ammo. What other brands have you experienced squib loads with?
Winchester Value-Pack and the US manufactured Independence (ATK).
I've had "Glock proof" primers in American Eagle.
The one nuclear round I had was green and white box Remington (worst domestic ammo I've ever used).

[1986s4]

During the time I owned a P-30 I noticed several things, ammo wise, it did not like; soft shooting match ammo and brass previously used by pistols with generous chambers. Other than that it was accurate with ammo that didn't group well in other pistols.

[JHC]

Wow, I have never had a squib load with factory ammo. What other brands have you experienced squib loads with?

IDK but I've been really impressed with the S&B and Fiocchi 9mm and .45 I've shot this year when I couldn't get Lawman. I didn't see good precision from MagTech a few years ago and never looked at it again. Same for the PRIVI stuff.

[Bodhi]

IDK but I've been really impressed with the S&B and Fiocchi 9mm and .45 I've shot this year when I couldn't get Lawman. I didn't see good precision from MagTech a few years ago and never looked at it again. Same for the PRIVI stuff.

Lawman is always my preferred and mostly what I stock, but I’ve been using Fiocchi for over 20 years and always been pleased with it. Mid 90’s Fiocchi was the easiest to acquire for me in 357sig so I’ve used it ever since. Never had an issue with their ammo in all that time. Just using 124gr 9mm these days.

[flyrodr]

The one nuclear round I had was green and white box Remington (worst domestic ammo I've ever used).

The only squib load I ever had was at a class, using some of the Remington UMC green/white box 9mm. Didn't hear the primer pop, and was just about to pull the trigger after the tap-rack, when instructor grabbed me in a "strong two-hand grip" - - - fortunately just before the -bang. There was a 115gr bullet pretty solidly lodged about half way up the barrel. Plus, that stuff is, or used to be, awfully sooty.

Never had any problems with inexpensive Magtech or S&B in HKs (or anything else for that matter).

[DpdG]

Saw 2 squibs last week in a teammate’s G23G4 with Lawman 180g. I head the primer pop on the first one- too many shooters for my to hear anything on the second. Both projectiles were stuck in the leade, which fortunately would not let the slide fully close on the tap/rack round behind it.

We reamed the first projectile out, on the obvious assumption of bad ammo. After the second we deadlined the pistol with the round still in the barrel. It’s currently at Glock. I still think a bad lot of ammo, but other shooters were shooting from the same case without issue...

[Sauer Koch]

We had some issues with this yesterday, while shooting Blazer Aluminum in our P30SK, and P30. The most concerning was with the SK; i had bought a new 15r HK mag, and was breaking it in. I loaded it w/15, and had two bangs, then click. I tried to open the slide, but could not; kept tugging on it, and still no luck. Finally, I pulled even harder, and it opened, but the case was stuck in the chamber. I removed the slide from the gun and was able to remove the case.

On the P30, my wife was shooting, and the last round failed to enter the chamber; it was about halfway out the mag, but somehow got stuck, and would not enter the chamber. As noted above by someone, my gun was not pristine clean, but I've never had this issue with any brass case ammo, and didn't realize HK advised against it; lesson learned, now I need to find a home for 550 rounds that i have left, and use that money to buy more brass case rounds.

*the other 198 rounds fired just fine, and accuracy was great, at 3-5 yds, but I'll stick with brass.

[1slow]

Does your Glock have a stepped chamber and capable of 1" accuracy......or do you need to buy a special barrel for match level accuracy? If you want to shoot non NATO spec crap ammo reliably, I highly recommend not shooting HK's. Current HK stuff is also sprung for modern loading that are much different than 115 grain training loads. One huge benefit I found to the stepped chamber is it will not chamber out of spec stuff, and won't fire it out of battery. For me, these are all benefits.

If shooting aluminum cases Blazer and steel cases ammo is a priority, HK is not for you. This is like the folks who insisted on shooting lead "training" ammunition in the old days and the P7's sucked because they got messed up shooting lead ammo. Thankfully, there are many choices out there for things that will shoot "budget" ammunition.
"


I was the thread starter. I have taken BD’s advice about this and many things HK.

If you must shoot aluminum case clean every time you shoot or every 200 rounds which ever is more frequent. Aluminum has Less lubricity and sticks in the chamber more.
I used up al the aluminum I had and do not want any more. I had to use a rod to remove stuck cases.

[Archer1440]

Does no one RTM on these things?

[Borderland]

I shoot only reloads in my P-30. It's all range pickup and every brand under the sun. Probably 500 rds so far and no hiccups but it's all brass.

Alum. and steel cases are garbage and the reason the ammo is so cheap, or at least it used to be. Reloaders won't touch the stuff.

[JDB]

I shoot only reloads in my P-30. It's all range pickup and every brand under the sun. Probably 500 rds so far and no hiccups but it's all brass.

Alum. and steel cases are garbage and the reason the ammo is so cheap, or at least it used to be. Reloaders won't touch the stuff.


ditto. However, when I get exceptionally dirty brass, (because I ran out of cleaning media) I can start getting failures to extract. Might happen once every 1000 rounds, but does occasionally happen. Never had a problem with clean ammo though.

[Sauer Koch]

"


I was the thread starter. I have taken BD’s advice about this and many things HK.

If you must shoot aluminum case clean every time you shoot or every 200 rounds which ever is more frequent. Aluminum has Less lubricity and sticks in the chamber more.
I used up al the aluminum I had and do not want any more. I had to use a rod to remove stuck cases.

1slow Thanks, I'll keep that in mind (cleaning advice). The takeaway seems to be that 'aluminum is okay, but problems are more likely to occur, so buyer beware'. Next time, I'll be sure to clean the barrel, and bring a rod. Honestly, 1 problem round out of the 200 we brought isn't terrible, but I wasn't expecting it, so it seemed worse in the moment. My nephew says his G19 and Beretta 92 eat it just fine, so I'll sell 5-6 boxes to him, and deal with the other 5, and not go there again, unless it's a must. I didn't see aluminum as "junk", just inferior to brass, and bought 750r @ $29.95 Steel case definitely seems to qualify as junk, and I'd never buy that unless it was just a box or two, in a pinch.

Thanks for the replies, I always learn something here, which is why I became a site supporter. This place is the best!

[fixer]

Just got myself into this as well. Didn't read manual on the ammo section. Found this thread and was like "doh!!!!!!!!!"

Picked up a pair of P30s.

Got about 800 rds down range with random brass of various manufacturers. No issues.

Got some steel case that had free shipping and wow...I have to punch the casings out of the chamber from the muzzle end with a cleaning rod. Out of 400 rds I have about 60 stoppages. (and the rounds print all over the place whereas the brass rounds were stunningly accurate.)

This ammo is getting sidelined its that bad. I might try it in a B92...not sure.

[Archer1440]

Remember, the P30 has a stepped chamber (as does the VP9) which puts slightly greater demands on the case material to behave properly. It is engineered for brass, use brass.

[TheNewbie]

With brass ammo, how had the long term reliability and durability been for those of you who own P30s?


Right now I carry a P-07. It’s stupid reliable, but I like the idea of DAO guns. The local gun shop has two V1 Lem P30s for $750 each. Not sure if that’s a good deal or not.

[1slow]

Trigger springs break at about 14,000 rounds. With full charge 9mm the P30s are very trouble free.

I have been shooting them since about 2013 with no trouble other than trigger springs and aluminum case ammo.

P30Ls seem more sensitive to not cycling with light loads.

[Sauer Koch]

With brass ammo, how had the long term reliability and durability been for those of you who own P30s?


Right now I carry a P-07. It’s stupid reliable, but I like the idea of DAO guns. The local gun shop has two V1 Lem P30s for $750 each. Not sure if that’s a good deal or not.

Reliability with my P30, and two SK’s has been excellent, using AE, Lawman, Blazer Brass, Fiocchi, etc...most of these rounds have been 124gr, including the 450 HST I ran through it.

$750 is a bit high, IMO, but considering the current climate, if your really wanted one, not terrible.

[JDB]

With brass ammo, how had the long term reliability and durability been for those of you who own P30s?


Right now I carry a P-07. It’s stupid reliable, but I like the idea of DAO guns. The local gun shop has two V1 Lem P30s for $750 each. Not sure if that’s a good deal or not.

The P30 is a Bomber gun. Reliability and durability were major determining factors in my choice of it. By far the most problem free pistol I've used, very low maintenance.

I keep two identical guns, one to carry, one to practice with. I replaced a heavy TRS on one gun after breaking it in dry fire. Then I set up both with light Trigger Return Spring (TRS). The heavy TRS springs have a reputation for breaking earlier...for whatever reason...it's a square spring that seems less flexible, maybe that's why.

Have yet to replace a light TRS, despite gobs of dry fire over the last 5 years. I keep expecting my practice P30 to break a TRS

I should probably replace a recoil spring, but I haven't yet. I keep a couple spares, but they just sit lonely.


It's got to be among the most trouble free pistols made. Probably in the rarified company of the USPs, HK45s, and little else. You could check out Todd Green's 90k round test of a P30 on Pistol-Training.com. His P30 finally gave up at over 90,000+ rounds, but likely would have gone much farther but for the heat and aggressive firing schedule. HK folks told him to expect a 25,000 round maintenance schedule. However 25k rounds is probably optimistic, at least for TRS springs.

[JonInWA]

My P30L V1.5 LEM has been superb. HK US's support has been superb. While the action components within the receiver is far more complex than a Glock, intrinsic component and assembly quality render it largely unnecessary to get into things deeper than field-stripping for most maintenance. I encountered a bit of backstrap movement with mine; HK CS took care of things for me very expeditiously, and the issue was more one of "it bugs me" than of any real operational significance.

Regarding aluminum cased ammunition: While I've switched over to brass pretty much exclusively, I have shot Federal Champion aluminum-cased .40 through botrh my P30L and VP40 with absolutely zero issues. However, after each match/shooting session, I field-strip, clean and lubricate, and my matches/firing sessions these days are rarely more than 100=125 rounds per session. I've concludeds that while brass-cased ammunition in an HK is more ideal, provided the gun is properly maintained and lubed for light-to-moderate sessions (approximately <200 rounds-my definition), I doubt there will be any issues or adverse effects. However, if given a choice, I'd recommend sticking with brass-cased. But these days, we're pretty much satisfied to shoot whatever we can get our hands on...

Best, Jon