US Army fields SIG M17 and M18 pistols

[Tokarev]

Link to SIG press release.

https://www.sigsauer.com/press-releases/u-s-army-fields-sig-sauer-m17m18-pistols/

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[TiroFijo]

“The specific performance improvements of the MHS over the M9 include better accuracy, tighter dispersion, and better ergonomics, which when combined, result in a far more lethal pistol.”

:rolleyes::D

Experten shooting from 1:25 on:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=88&v=sc-pQH9GSxA

[MGW]

Lethal is the Army's new catchphrase.

[CraigS]

Lethal is the Army's new catchphrase. To go along w/ that have the ROEs changed so they don't have to wait til the other guy shoots first?

[Bigghoss]

...a far more lethal pistol. "That we still won't actually train people to shoot proficiently." (not that it's actually more lethal anyway)

[Balisong]

Sorry I'm not especially fluent in military lingo. What the hell does "tighter dispersion" mean?

[zephyr]

“The specific performance improvements of the MHS over the M9 include better accuracy, tighter dispersion, and better ergonomics, which when combined, result in a far more lethal pistol.”

:rolleyes::D

Experten shooting from 1:25 on:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=88&v=sc-pQH9GSxA

Interesting

[Hambo]

Since so many people mistake accuracy and precision as synonyms, I assumed that “tighter dispersion” was used to mean more precise.

You lost me. Precise in what way?

[breakingtime91]

That safety position/ slide stop looks like a nightmare for slide lock if you use the safety correctly

[DallasBronco]

I never shot on an indoor range, but I was surprised to see all those soldiers on the firing line without Kevlars. Most likely, it was just a part of the dog and pony show which accompanied the Sig and Army brass patting themselves on the back.

[ralph]

I have to agree with bighoss's post above..If they (U.S. Army) aren't willing to invest time into actual training with a handgun, they may as well give them slingshots... This is nothing more than a waste of tax payer dollars..

[Zincwarrior]

“The specific performance improvements of the MHS over the M9 include better accuracy, tighter dispersion, and better ergonomics, which when combined, result in a far more lethal pistol.”

:rolleyes::D

Experten shooting from 1:25 on:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=88&v=sc-pQH9GSxA

Thats a nice looking pistol actually.

[Zincwarrior]

I have to agree with bighoss's post above..If they (U.S. Army) aren't willing to invest time into actual training with a handgun, they may as well give them slingshots... This is nothing more than a waste of tax payer dollars..

Or give them proper rifles. Although this is a pistol forum, we should remember, this is absolutely a secondary personal weapon, in an organization that has tanks, Apaches, artillery, and SS missile systems. Its right there in priority with paper clips.

[ralph]

Or give them proper rifles. Although this is a pistol forum, we should remember, this is absolutely a secondary personal weapon, in an organization that has tanks, Apaches, artillery, and SS missile systems. Its right there in priority with paper clips.

I understand that, but if you're going to issue pistols, then why not train people to use it profeciently, as they do with a rifle? What good is a hand gun if you can't use it well. Still a waste of taxpayer dollars, as I don't see what the Sig does better than the M9, It's going to be interesting to see how well the Sig holds up to the typical abuse, poor maintaince that the M9 got..

[TiroFijo]

That safety position/ slide stop looks like a nightmare for slide lock if you use the safety correctly

I was thinking exactly that... has anybody tried this pistol riding the safety with the thumb a la 1911?

[Gio]

That safety position/ slide stop looks like a nightmare for slide lock if you use the safety correctly

At 2:20 in the video the safety is on and the shooter attempts to apply ~30 lbs of pressure to it before realizing it. The way the video is cut though you can't tell if the safety was "bumped on" during shooting because it doesn't show the shots before that. I do think the position of the slide release to the safety would tend to cause shooters to either a.) inadvertently bump the safety on when trying to lock the slide to the rear, b.) ride the safety and the slide release and prevent it from locking open on an empty mag, or c.) not riding the safety due to previously mentioned issue and bumping the safety up/on under recoil because of it.

[Zincwarrior]

I understand that, but if you're going to issue pistols, then why not train people to use it profeciently, as they do with a rifle? What good is a hand gun if you can't use it well. Still a waste of taxpayer dollars, as I don't see what the Sig does better than the M9, It's going to be interesting to see how well the Sig holds up to the typical abuse, poor maintaince that the M9 got..

I agree completely.

[Drang]

I never shot on an indoor range, but I was surprised to see all those soldiers on the firing line without Kevlars. Most likely, it was just a part of the dog and pony show which accompanied the Sig and Army brass patting themselves on the back.

Many soldiers are astonished to learn that there is no Army reg that mandates wearing full "battle rattle" on the range.
Unit standards, yes, but no AR.

[MGW]

Many soldiers are astonished to learn that there is no Army reg that mandates wearing full "battle rattle" on the range.
Unit standards, yes, but no AR.

Correct. Commanders discretion. I've fought that battle multiple times. I get tired of hearing "train like we fight!" Zeroing is not training. Qualifying is not training. Very few can figure out the difference.

[LockedBreech]

Is there any evidence for the claim that the P320/M17/M18 is more accurate than the M9? In my experience the 92-series pistols are profoundly accurate. Are they just talking about aged, beat-to-heck M9s or are they making the claim that the 320 is more accurate out of the box?

[holmes168]

Two deployments to Iraq. My pistol was a paperweight. If I had been using a pistol- then things had gone so bad- it wouldn’t have mattered.
As someone said earlier- with rifles, machine guns, tanks, Apaches, etc- the pistol could be important but I didn’t see one fired in 23 months.

[psalms144.1]

Well, at least none of the pistols OOB exploded during the video ;). I seriously hope that Sig has these pistols RIGHT, and they'll serve our men and women in uniform well for a long while. My agency is considering adopting them as a replacement for our current issued P229/P238 DAK .40s, and it appears Big Navy is pushing to standardize on the M17/M18 for all handguns.

[Hambo]

As for durability I doubt it's a concern in the short term. The high volume pistol shooters in the military aren't using these.

[GlockenSpiel]

Is there any evidence for the claim that the P320/M17/M18 is more accurate than the M9? In my experience the 92-series pistols are profoundly accurate. Are they just talking about aged, beat-to-heck M9s or are they making the claim that the 320 is more accurate out of the box?At this point it's traditional for the military to compare the accuracy of a beat-up old gun to a crisp new gun, then claim the newer one is inherently more accurate.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Duelist]

Dispersion is more of a machine gun term, iirc: true bullet hoses, a machine gun is expected to have an "area of dispersion" which the gunner uses to hose his bullets into his target area and beat everything within it into Swiss cheese as he works the gun back and forth across the target area.

Tighter dispersion means more precise, even if it is maybe an awkward turn of phrase.

[DallasBronco]

Many soldiers are astonished to learn that there is no Army reg that mandates wearing full "battle rattle" on the range.
Unit standards, yes, but no AR.
Thanks for that, I didn't know. I was former Air Force enlisted as an Army Guard tanker, so I thought "everybody" did it that way because it just seemed like the gospel throughout my battalion.

[dpadams6]

Well, at least none of the pistols OOB exploded during the video ;). I seriously hope that Sig has these pistols RIGHT, and they'll serve our men and women in uniform well for a long while. My agency is considering adopting them as a replacement for our current issued P229/P238 DAK .40s, and it appears Big Navy is pushing to standardize on the M17/M18 for all handguns.No No... Don't get rid of the 229's. Best platform for 357/40, IMHO

[psalms144.1]

No No... Don't get rid of the 229's. Best platform for 357/40, IMHOForgive the thread drift, but it's largely about money. My agency has to pay for our Sigs out of hide, since they're not "standard" equipment issued by Crane. Going forward, if we need new pistols, parts, mags, etc, Crane and Navy won't support. So, we either have to keep cutting out of our very limited budget to support legacy firearms, or go with the new "standard issue"...

[revchuck38]

Many soldiers are astonished to learn that there is no Army reg that mandates wearing full "battle rattle" on the range.
Unit standards, yes, but no AR.


Correct. Commanders discretion. I've fought that battle multiple times. I get tired of hearing "train like we fight!" Zeroing is not training. Qualifying is not training. Very few can figure out the difference.


Thanks for that, I didn't know. I was former Air Force enlisted as an Army Guard tanker, so I thought "everybody" did it that way because it just seemed like the gospel throughout my battalion.

From a Guard/Reserve standpoint, annual qualification is the only time the Soldier will fire his/her weapon, and it's different with and without battle rattle. While it may not qualify as training, it's as close as they'll get unless they're spinning up for a deployment.

[DallasBronco]

From a Guard/Reserve standpoint, annual qualification is the only time the Soldier will fire his/her weapon, and it's different with and without battle rattle. While it may not qualify as training, it's as close as they'll get unless they're spinning up for a deployment.
As a tanker, we were issued an M9. When we shot, we were in full battle rattle. When we deployed stateside toting M-16's and had to qualify, we were in full battle rattle. I was under the impression that was always how the Army did it, until I read Drang's post.

[MGW]

From a Guard/Reserve standpoint, annual qualification is the only time the Soldier will fire his/her weapon, and it's different with and without battle rattle. While it may not qualify as training, it's as close as they'll get unless they're spinning up for a deployment.

And the majority of guard and reserve units never use their full annual allocation of ammo. And the majority of Guard and Reserve units never do dry practice or practice squad and team tactics both great opportunities to practice in full gear.

Annual IWQ is for verifying zeros and verifying that Soldiers have the ability to apply basic marksmanship fundamentals. When that has been completed training can start. Unfortunately, most commanders don't see it that way.

[ranger]

And the majority of guard and reserve units never use their full annual allocation of ammo. And the majority of Guard and Reserve units never do dry practice or practice squad and team tactics both great opportunities to practice in full gear.

Annual IWQ is for verifying zeros and verifying that Soldiers have the ability to apply basic marksmanship fundamentals. When that has been completed training can start. Unfortunately, most commanders don't see it that way.

I am sorry for continuing the thread drift. GreggW - I would be curious to learn more about the factual basis for your comments about the Guard and Reserve units ammunition usage and how they train. There are 54 states and territories with National Guard and Reserve units so your statement seems to be a fairly broad brush. Maybe this should be a separate thread.

[JBP55]

The first thing I noticed in the pictures was the position of the fingers/hands on the pistols.

[JSGlock34]

At 2:20 in the video the safety is on and the shooter attempts to apply ~30 lbs of pressure to it before realizing it. The way the video is cut though you can't tell if the safety was "bumped on" during shooting because it doesn't show the shots before that. I do think the position of the slide release to the safety would tend to cause shooters to either a.) inadvertently bump the safety on when trying to lock the slide to the rear, b.) ride the safety and the slide release and prevent it from locking open on an empty mag, or c.) not riding the safety due to previously mentioned issue and bumping the safety up/on under recoil because of it.

Couldn't help but notice in a number of the pictures that the soldiers are 'tucking' their rear thumb...besides suboptimal recoil control, this seems a poor choice to manipulate the safety, and risks inadvertent activation of the safety. I'll be curious to see if the revision of TC 3-23.35 Pistol (http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN3524_TC%203-23x35%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf) will recommend riding the safety...

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/8F500713-B994-4117-B469-053A3DABCEAE-440x294.jpeg
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/598DF9E0-760F-4BC4-B0F6-F549292B30D3-440x660.jpeg

[GlockenSpiel]

Couldn't help but notice in a number of the pictures that the soldiers are 'tucking' their rear thumb...besides suboptimal recoil control, this seems a poor choice to manipulate the safety, and risks inadvertent activation of the safety. I'll be curious to see if the revision of TC 3-23.35 Pistol (http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN3524_TC%203-23x35%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf) will recommend riding the safety...

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/8F500713-B994-4117-B469-053A3DABCEAE-440x294.jpeg
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/598DF9E0-760F-4BC4-B0F6-F549292B30D3-440x660.jpegI believe Ayoob and others have recommended tucked thumbs to avoid inadvertent activation of the controls. It's not the worst grip to teach people who don't spend much time shooting handguns.

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[Bigghoss]

On guns where I tend to hit the slide stop I usually just bend my thumb up at the first knuckle and this usually works.

[GardoneVT]

One might almost say you can't fix a software problem with a hardware solution.

[Tokarev]

Christmas Arrives Early for the 101st as XM17s are Issued!


https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/12/1/the-keefe-report-christmas-arrives-early-for-the-101st-as-xm17s-are-issued/

[alohadoug]

Christmas Arrives Early for the 101st as XM17s are Issued!


https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/12/1/the-keefe-report-christmas-arrives-early-for-the-101st-as-xm17s-are-issued/

1st Security Force Assistance Brigade (https://www.army.mil/standto/2017-02-17)(1st SFAB) at Fort Benning is getting theirs are well...

[Tokarev]

1st Security Force Assistance Brigade (https://www.army.mil/standto/2017-02-17)(1st SFAB) at Fort Benning is getting theirs are well...

Cool. We should be getting some end user feedback pretty soon then.

[JRB]

Many soldiers are astonished to learn that there is no Army reg that mandates wearing full "battle rattle" on the range.
Unit standards, yes, but no AR.


Correct. Commanders discretion. I've fought that battle multiple times. I get tired of hearing "train like we fight!" Zeroing is not training. Qualifying is not training. Very few can figure out the difference.


Thanks for that, I didn't know. I was former Air Force enlisted as an Army Guard tanker, so I thought "everybody" did it that way because it just seemed like the gospel throughout my battalion.


As a tanker, we were issued an M9. When we shot, we were in full battle rattle. When we deployed stateside toting M-16's and had to qualify, we were in full battle rattle. I was under the impression that was always how the Army did it, until I read Drang's post.


I am sorry for continuing the thread drift. GreggW - I would be curious to learn more about the factual basis for your comments about the Guard and Reserve units ammunition usage and how they train. There are 54 states and territories with National Guard and Reserve units so your statement seems to be a fairly broad brush. Maybe this should be a separate thread.

Guard and Reserve units very frequently use 'full battle rattle' when conducting a zero or qual range because an IBA/IOTV + ACH is an easy 'control' to implement to reduce the overall risk 'rating' on a DRAW/formal risk assessment.

So while SNCO's might be barking the worn-out 'train as we fight' nonsense, the simple truth is that some O3's and O4's wanted the range event approved and signed off by the O6/O7 responsible, and that Colonel or General made it clear that they wouldn't sign off on any DRAW that didn't involve wearing full battle rattle.

Forecasting ammo is a fickle thing and frequently depends on the Brigade (O6/Colonel level) and higher. Frequently they will harp on about shortages and lack of funding etc all through the entire Fiscal Year, only to freak out and go into a spending spree around mid-August.

As for the profound absence of *actual* training with handguns in the Army - at least those joes are pointing the damn thing in a safe direction. It's amazing how easily even NCO and SNCO's in the Reserve/Guard that have no other exposure or practice to rifles throughout the year can profoundly and terrifyingly mis-handle a 20in M16, let alone an M9.

[JSGlock34]

I was interested to see statements from the 101st Master Gunner (SFC Flynn) that pistols will be issued to fire team leaders. According to the linked article, that's the Army wide plan.

“This weapon is going to go down to the team leader, which is not what we typically have in the 101st or across most light divisions,” 10st master gunner Sgt. 1st Class Andrew Flynn told Military.com. “We are putting this weapon into the hands of a lot of younger soldiers who have never fired it.”

In a first, the Army’s new handgun will be issued to team leaders (https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-army/2017/11/29/in-a-first-the-armys-new-handgun-will-be-issued-to-team-leaders/)

[Drang]

I believe that Pershing's intention in WWI was to issue every infantryman a pistol. (Can't remember the source.) It took a long time to train the Doughboys up to the point that they were up to trench duty (not to mention assaulting across No Man's land) but the AEF took advantage and spent a lot of time analyzing what at the time were not referred to as "Real World" conditions.

That's why there are so many M1917 revolvers around, there was no way to produce enough 1911s. The 1917 Alvin York used when he captured "the whole damned German army" was issued to him.

[JSGlock34]

The 1917 Alvin York used?

[holmes168]

The headlines should be saying- "Army fielding new pistols that will not be trained on, but will collect dust for the remainder of the decade."

Color me unimpressed.

[Mas]

In fairness to Drang, I believe he was talking about the 1917 Enfield Rifle most historians agree Alvin York used, issued because there weren't enough Springfield 1903s to go around. Exactly the same as the 1917 Colt and S&W .45 ACP revolvers issued because there weren't enough 1911 .45 autos to go around.

[ranger]

The headlines should be saying- "Army fielding new pistols that will not be trained on, but will collect dust for the remainder of the decade."

Color me unimpressed.

I carried a M9 every day for approximately one year in Iraq. My State commonly allowed our company sized units to "dual carry" when they deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. The pistols may not have been carried by USPSA GMs but in fact they did get very dusty at times.

[LockedBreech]

In fairness to Drang, I believe he was talking about the 1917 Enfield Rifle most historians agree Alvin York used, issued because there weren't enough Springfield 1903s to go around. Exactly the same as the 1917 Colt and S&W .45 ACP revolvers issued because there weren't enough 1911 .45 autos to go around.

Bit of thread drift, but I bought Bruce Canfield's U.S Infantry Weapons of World War II based on the forum's advice and it was some of the best $40 I ever spent. Plugging it here, no affiliation to the author or profits gained. If you love WW2, history, guns, and good thorough research by subject matter experts it's a delightful book.


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[Drang]

In fairness to Drang, I believe he was talking about the 1917 Enfield Rifle most historians agree Alvin York used, issued because there weren't enough Springfield 1903s to go around. Exactly the same as the 1917 Colt and S&W .45 ACP revolvers issued because there weren't enough 1911 .45 autos to go around.

I believe he also had a 1917 revolver, although I could be wrong about that. I know they gave Gary Cooper a Luger in the movie, but that's supposed to be because because they had 9mm blanks...

[GardoneVT]

"[The Beretta 92s] pretty dated technology,” Lt. Col. Steven Power, individual weapons product manager for Project Manager Soldier Weapons.

Someone should remind the partial bird Colonel how old the M4 is.

[JSGlock34]

I believe he also had a 1917 revolver, although I could be wrong about that. I know they gave Gary Cooper a Luger in the movie, but that's supposed to be because because they had 9mm blanks...

York's use of the 1911 against a charging German bayonet team is probably the most famous single use of Browning's pistol.

Interestingly, the actual site of the engagement was pinpointed in 2006.

Proof offered of Sergeant York's war exploits - Americas - International Herald Tribune (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/26/world/americas/26iht-york.3300183.html?_r=1)

[John Hearne]

While I didn't get to live fire it, I've handled the P320 with manual safety. The safety is quite ergonomic and you'd have to try extra hard to ride the slide release with the firing hand's thumb. In fact, I found it almost impossible to drop the slide with the firing side thumb. If you're going to use the slide catch lever to drop the slide, you'll probably end up using the support hand's thumb.

[Mike C]

York's use of the 1911 against a charging German bayonet team is probably the most famous single use of Browning's pistol.

Interestingly, the actual site of the engagement was pinpointed in 2006.

Proof offered of Sergeant York's war exploits - Americas - International Herald Tribune (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/26/world/americas/26iht-york.3300183.html?_r=1)

Thanks for the link that was a neat article.

[Drang]

York's use of the 1911 against a charging German bayonet team is probably the most famous single use of Browning's pistol.

Interestingly, the actual site of the engagement was pinpointed in 2006.

Proof offered of Sergeant York's war exploits - Americas - International Herald Tribune (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/26/world/americas/26iht-york.3300183.html?_r=1)I stand corrected.

[JBP55]

Couldn't help but notice in a number of the pictures that the soldiers are 'tucking' their rear thumb...besides suboptimal recoil control, this seems a poor choice to manipulate the safety, and risks inadvertent activation of the safety. I'll be curious to see if the revision of TC 3-23.35 Pistol (http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN3524_TC%203-23x35%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf) will recommend riding the safety...

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/8F500713-B994-4117-B469-053A3DABCEAE-440x294.jpeg
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/598DF9E0-760F-4BC4-B0F6-F549292B30D3-440x660.jpeg

That is what I was referring to in post #36 where I see the shooters have their non dominant thumb in the trigger guard.

[Tokarev]

That is what I was referring to in post #36 where I see the shooters have their non dominant thumb in the trigger guard.Pretty much the only way to shoot the M9 unless you want your thumb whacked by the safety.

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[DocGKR]

"Pretty much the only way to shoot the M9 unless you want your thumb whacked by the safety."
Never had to shoot mine that way...

--------------------------------------------------------------------

These are not a trick questions:

Which is easier for an armorer to service--Glock 19/17's or Sig 320's?

Which has more parts, a Glock 19/17 or a Sig 320?

Which is generally more reliable in adverse environmental conditions--Glock 19/17 or Sig 320?

To date, which has proven more durable, the Glock 19/17 or Sig 320?

[Bigghoss]

On my M9/92's I wrap my dominate thumb around the outside of my support hand. Otherwise I have to choose between getting whacked by the safety or riding the slide stop.

[JSGlock34]

I tend to offset my dominant thumb to prevent riding the slide release. Here's an old pic of Kyle Defoor demonstrating how he grips the SIG P226 to avoid activating the slide release. Works on just about everything, though I tend to ride 1911 style thumb safeties.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1SUWtQ-SXvk/SjfypJ3GuTI/AAAAAAAAACE/gHHfmxvJIO0/s1600/sig%2Bpics%2B002.jpg

[Cory]

My experience with military issue side arms seems to be significantly different from many here. 6 years in the National Guard, as an MP. We may not have been the best trained shooters in the world, but we definitely went to the range more frequently than some folks are citing here. We fired our weapons on probably 5 drills a year, plus our annual training. So around every other month, although sometimes it would be a few months without trigger time followed by back to back range trips. Those of us NCOs who volunteered to go on orders to do schools or be trainers frequently got even more trigger time. This was usually dedicated to our M4/16, 249, 240, Mk19, and 50s.

But our M9s were fired at least 3 times a year I would say. Every time they were, we had an entire day to shoot them exclusively, and more ammo than I can accurately describe. I always wound up as a Range Safety for the first 1/2s of the day, qualified quickly and then got as much extra training (mostly with barricades) as I could, before late afternoon saw me doing remedial training with those who struggled. Our M9s were definitely worn to hell and back, and our instruction wasn't always the best (hell, now I cringe at some of the advice I gave out as a hotshot E5 who knew it all) but there was at least a foundation. My foundation of loving handguns came from a salty as fuck MSG who took the time to show me what those worn out M9s could do.

In addition, our M9s saw use downrange as well. Doing PSD or PTT work we frequently rolled to Iraqi police stations. Usually once inside a station we left our trucks guarded, dropped kit, and carried our M9s. Our M9s were our primary when acting as PSD for Colonel so&so to meet and have dinner with IP General Mickey Mouse. Then when we were back in our gun trucks, it was back to our 240s and happiness. But while inside IP compounds (not all of them, but a few) brass was worried we would hurt Iraqi feelings if we appeared hostile and in body armor. Some of our guys actually did L&O work on post while downrange. Mostly inspecting Iraqi's who sold stuff on post and acting as law enforcement MPs. But the M9 was there go to as well. I nearly used my M9 while overseas too. I guess most people think that's some weird scenario that doesn't happen... but it does.

My point is, handguns in the service are treated differently in different units, different MOS's, at different times. Yes the training is still lacking, but to say that it's unimportant would be fool hardy in my opinion. Then again, I came from a pistol prevalent MOS.

-Cory

[JonInWA]

I've got a strong feeling that the ineptness of the selection process is going to come back to haunt us-"us" specifically the servicemembers who will be, in effect, the beta-testers for what I consider to be a somewhat checkered product from the onset.

I'll join the chorus that strongly feel that a Glock would have been a far, far better choice from multiple standpoints.

I doubt any of the Tier One units that have issued/access to Glocks are in any huge rush to switch to the P320....

Best, Jon

[ReverendMeat]

Pretty much the only way to shoot the M9 unless you want your thumb whacked by the safety.


That's silly.

[Tokarev]

That's silly.Lol whatever.

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[Tokarev]

This isn’t really a”Lol whatever” kind of forum.So is it a "that's silly" one?

Other people have also stated they need to use more of a thumbs down type of grip when running an M9. Different hand sizes, etc will certainly change how the pistol works from one shooter to the next.

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[HCountyGuy]

Never had to shoot mine that way...

--------------------------------------------------------------------

These are not a trick questions:

Which is easier for an armorer to service--Glock 19/17's or Sig 320's?

Which has more parts, a Glock 19/17 or a Sig 320?

Which is generally more reliable in adverse environmental conditions--Glock 19/17 or Sig 320?

To date, which has proven more durable, the Glock 19/17 or Sig 320?

In all fairness Glocks have been around far longer than the P320 so it's not the best comparison in that regard.

Which gun is some dipwad private more likely to have an ND with, specifically while trying to field-strip the pistol?

I would say the M17/M18 might be a little more "grunt-proof" there and if one of them screws up a frame the armorer can just pop out the FCU and put it in another.

[HCM]

Pretty much the only way to shoot the M9 unless you want your thumb whacked by the safety.

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I have XXL hands and have never had an issue with the safety whacking my thumb when shooting Beretta 92 variants with a proper thumbs forward / "Shaw" type grip. This despite the fact, normally if a gun can bite / or whack part of your hand it will happen to me....

[Tokarev]

I have XXL hands and have never had an issue with the safety whacking my thumb when shooting Beretta 92 variants with a proper thumbs forward / "Shaw" type grip. This despite the fact, normally if a gun can bite / or whack part of your hand it will happen to me....You don't get cut by the Glock?

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[HCM]

You don't get cut by the Glock?

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Gen 3 and earlier -yes. Gen 4/5 with the beavertail - no.

Beretta 92 /M9 - No.

[HCM]

This is the current Army pistol manual TC 3-23.35 specifies the thumbs forward / shaw grip-

http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN3524_TC%203-23x35%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf

Go to figure 6-1a. though IMHO the support hand should be rotated further forward than illustrated.

[psalms144.1]

Which gun is some dipwad private more likely to have an ND with, specifically while trying to field-strip the pistol?In my experience dealing with dipwad Privates (and Colonels, and Command Sergeants Major) the OVERWHELMING majority (on an order of about 95%) of NDs I've seen, investigated, or heard about happened during (needless) administrative handling - specifically clearing barrel procedures where a trigger pull is mandated at the end of the procedure, not during clearing for maintenance. The last two NDs I was personally involved with investigating both involved NDs with Sig P-series pistols in the hands of Military Police/Master at Arms personnel. One was a M11 (P228) and one a P229R DAK - both of which are theoretically much more tolerant of mishandling than a Glock, or the new M17.

My point, I guess, it that NOTHING is idiot proof, and lack of training will make any pistol "unsafe."

To Doc's point, if I were an armorer in charge of a fleet of pistols for issue, I'd MUCH rather have to maintain GLOCKs over the P320. If you haven't gotten into the guts of the P320 FCU, you have no idea of the additional difficulty inherent in that design, from number of parts, size of parts, and complexity of interaction.

[Kyle Reese]

Pretty much the only way to shoot the M9 unless you want your thumb whacked by the safety.

Sent from my SM-G930P using TapatalkEh? That's not been my experience at all, and I've got tens of thousands of rounds through various Beretta 92 handguns.

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[Bucky]

So is it a "that's silly" one?

Other people have also stated they need to use more of a thumbs down type of grip when running an M9. Different hand sizes, etc will certainly change how the pistol works from one shooter to the next.

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I shot Berettas in competition exclusively for three straight years. I use the same thumbs forward grips as I do with Glocks, 1911, etc, and never once had an issue with the safety / decocker.

[Gadfly]

Perhaps they are demonstrating an improper grip? Maybe?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171203/306ff703ee68168c64a16773785f0642.jpg

Also, did the army request a loaded chamber indicator? On the top of the slide between the top of the barrel hood and the RDS mounting cover? Did not notice those on the factory 320.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171203/9f0a95e65576d040f368ab09f538d353.jpg


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[ReverendMeat]

So is it a "that's silly" one?

Other people have also stated they need to use more of a thumbs down type of grip when running an M9. Different hand sizes, etc will certainly change how the pistol works from one shooter to the next.

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I apologize for being flippant. I've personally never encountered my grip interfering with the 92 safety nor have heard of it being an issue from anyone up until now. I have a hard time picturing it even, except maybe if the safety is in the down position which of course would preclude the gun from firing in the first place. Could you post a picture of your grip, maybe?

[Cory]

Perhaps they are demonstrating an improper grip? Maybe?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171203/306ff703ee68168c64a16773785f0642.jpg

Also, did the army request a loaded chamber indicator? On the top of the slide between the top of the barrel hood and the RDS mounting cover? Did not notice those on the factory 320.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171203/9f0a95e65576d040f368ab09f538d353.jpg


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My experience giving a few M9 briefings to mostly experienced M9 shooters (Natty G MPs) and a few brand new shooters (National Guard finance troops) suggests otherwise. I've seen a lot of grips that are unsound even among those who definitely should know better. I've seen bleeding hands more than a hand full of times, and compared to a lot of folks on this forum the number of military shooters I've seen is pretty low.

But this thread isn't suppose to be about that. I'm honestly a bit more curious as to if anyone can spot a smaller grip module being used by anyone actually shooting.

-Cory


-Cory

[BWT]

I thought it was supposed to have a threaded barrel?

God Bless,

Brandon

[LittleLebowski]

Or give them proper rifles. Although this is a pistol forum, we should remember, this is absolutely a secondary personal weapon, in an organization that has tanks, Apaches, artillery, and SS missile systems. Its right there in priority with paper clips.

From proficiency with a pistol does proficiency with rifles come.

[Zincwarrior]

From proficiency with a pistol does proficiency with rifles come.

No. I was shooting a rifle before I could ride a bicycle. I didn't shoot a pistol until my late teens.

[HopetonBrown]

No. I was shooting a rifle before I could ride a bicycle. I didn't shoot a pistol until my late teens."No" doesn't really make sense as a reply. I assume LL is saying that being good with a pistol helps with being good with a rifle.

[LittleLebowski]

No. I was shooting a rifle before I could ride a bicycle. I didn't shoot a pistol until my late teens.

And so was I, it doesn’t take away from the fact that a good pistol shooter transitions more easily into rifle shooting than the inverse. I’ve seen it many, many times, and spoken with many instructors about it. It’s all well and good to utilize max point blank with a rifle, it’s another thing entirely to be proficient with a pistol. As a guy raised on rifle shooting on the plains, I found military and civilian carbine training to be easy. Military pistol training was mediocre, civilian pistol shooting really opened my eyes.

[LittleLebowski]

"No" doesn't really make sense as a reply. I assume LL is saying that being good with a pistol helps with being good with a rifle.

Correct.

[Wake27]

Also we have a pretty good rifle, so I don’t know what the whole “proper” thing is about.


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[gtae07]

In my experience dealing with dipwad Privates (and Colonels, and Command Sergeants Major) the OVERWHELMING majority (on an order of about 95%) of NDs I've seen, investigated, or heard about happened during (needless) administrative handling - specifically clearing barrel procedures where a trigger pull is mandated at the end of the procedure, not during clearing for maintenance.

Can you please explain this part? I'm genuinely curious--what is the procedure, what is it for, and why do you think "they" require it?


To Doc's point, if I were an armorer in charge of a fleet of pistols for issue, I'd MUCH rather have to maintain GLOCKs over the P320. If you haven't gotten into the guts of the P320 FCU, you have no idea of the additional difficulty inherent in that design, from number of parts, size of parts, and complexity of interaction.
I tried doing a detail strip of my P320 when I first got it. Now, I'm an engineer with good hands-on skills; I can generally take almost anything apart and put it back together successfully. I got the FCU about half-disassembled before I gave up and put it all back together; there were too many fiddly bits and springs and I was worried about launching parts across the workshop and never finding them again. I haven't yet done it with any of my Glocks but just on pictures it looks a whole lot easier.

[JHC]

And so was I, it doesn’t take away from the fact that a good pistol shooter transitions more easily into rifle shooting than the inverse. I’ve seen it many, many times, and spoken with many instructors about it. It’s all well and good to utilize max point blank with a rifle, it’s another thing entirely to be proficient with a pistol. As a guy raised on rifle shooting on the plains, I found military and civilian carbine training to be easy. Military pistol training was mediocre, civilian pistol shooting really opened my eyes.

Same observations here and have gotten same reports from those in training work.

[psalms144.1]

Can you please explain this part? I'm genuinely curious--what is the procedure, what is it for, and why do you think "they" require it?I couldn't even begin to guess why it's there, but every clearing barrel instruction I've seen directs a trigger press as the final step in the process. Similar to the trigger press to "show clear" at the end of a stage of fire in most competitive shooting sports. It's a needless throw back to the 1911 (and a handful of other SAO pistols, and early DA/SAs without a decocking lever), where there's no way to lower the hammer without pressing the trigger - and a communal "training scar" that appears here to stay.

[Zincwarrior]

"No" doesn't really make sense as a reply. I assume LL is saying that being good with a pistol helps with being good with a rifle.

That was not the statement though. I do agree pistol shooting may help slightly it's not a requirement o good rifle shooting.

Further, directly to this thread,
Qualifying a couple of times of year literally will do nothing rifle related.

[BWT]

That was not the statement though. I do agree pistol shooting may help slightly it's not a requirement o good rifle shooting.

Further, directly to this thread,
Qualifying a couple of times of year literally will do nothing rifle related.

If you can control a trigger, maintain sight alignment, maintain proper grip, reload quickly, and track the sights on a pistol.

Rifles are much more forgiving because you jerk the trigger, have a hug magwell and magazines comparatively, and all others things, etc. and really not be able to tell nearly as much as with a pistol.

I’ve found this to be true.

God Bless,

Brandon

[DocGKR]

In combat, one of the most elite units in the US military has used rifles to engage our Nation's enemies over 90% of the time, yet they spend 40% of their marksmanship training on pistols. When asked why such an inordinate amount of time is spent on a weapon system that is rarely used in combat, their firearms trainers state that pistol's are much harder to shoot well and that handgun marksmanship skills carry over to rifle shooting, but not the reverse...

[LittleLebowski]

If you can control a trigger, maintain sight alignment, maintain proper grip, reload quickly, and track the sights on a pistol.

Rifles are much more forgiving because you jerk the trigger, have a hug magwell and magazines comparatively, and all others things, etc. and really not be able to tell nearly as much as with a pistol.

I’ve found this to be true.

God Bless,

Brandon

Yup.

[LittleLebowski]

In combat, one of the most elite units in the US military has used rifles to engage our Nation's enemies over 90% of the time, yet they spend 40% of their marksmanship training on pistols. When asked why such an inordinate amount of time is spent on a weapon system that is rarely used in combat, their firearms trainers state that pistol's are much harder to shoot well and that handgun marksmanship skills carry over to rifle shooting, but not the reverse...

Exactly.

[ranger]

I couldn't even begin to guess why it's there, but every clearing barrel instruction I've seen directs a trigger press as the final step in the process. Similar to the trigger press to "show clear" at the end of a stage of fire in most competitive shooting sports. It's a needless throw back to the 1911 (and a handful of other SAO pistols, and early DA/SAs without a decocking lever), where there's no way to lower the hammer without pressing the trigger - and a communal "training scar" that appears here to stay.

It may seem needless until you see the number of negligent discharges that go into those clearing barrels with that last step of pull the trigger or until you hear a crew served weapon loose a short burst in the motor pool. In many cases, it would be safer to just keep the individual weapons "hot" versus the constant cycle of going "hot" then clearing.

[Wondering Beard]

I tried doing a detail strip of my P320 when I first got it. Now, I'm an engineer with good hands-on skills; I can generally take almost anything apart and put it back together successfully. I got the FCU about half-disassembled before I gave up and put it all back together; there were too many fiddly bits and springs and I was worried about launching parts across the workshop and never finding them again. I haven't yet done it with any of my Glocks but just on pictures it looks a whole lot easier.

I am no engineer and my "hands on" skills aren't great, but I can detail strip a Glock with ease (so long as I have the directions to look at) and put it back together, and not lose any small parts somewhere along the way.

if someone like me can do that then you would find it child's play.

[RJ]

Just a few observations:

I hope and pray our Servicemen and Women who go in harms way and have to rely on this pistol don’t find out too late it craps the bed when they need it first. Yes it would suck to discover that the whole 320 design doesn’t stand up to Military Service. But I sure think it beats the alternative to having COs write letters of condolences for military personnel. So, my wish is that the M17 and M18 pistols end up being excellent service pistols.

Second, with regard to this whole ‘barrel clearing’, as a civilian it simply boggles the mind why this is so. ‘Keep it in the holster’ seems a fairly straightforward concept in the civilian world. For those who would know: when did the use of these barrels start and what prompted them to be introduced?

Lastly, just a note to say I had to go look up ‘aphoristic’. Color me impressed. :cool:

[Zincwarrior]

If you can control a trigger, maintain sight alignment, maintain proper grip, reload quickly, and track the sights on a pistol.

Rifles are much more forgiving because you jerk the trigger, have a hug magwell and magazines comparatively, and all others things, etc. and really not be able to tell nearly as much as with a pistol.

I’ve found this to be true.

God Bless,

Brandon

We apoear to have different definitions of rifle shooting.

[Zincwarrior]

Actually, it was, but stated in LL’s sometimes aphoristic manner. :)

Well then we appear to be arguing even though we both agree. :)

[HCM]

It may seem needless until you see the number of negligent discharges that go into those clearing barrels with that last step of pull the trigger or until you hear a crew served weapon loose a short burst in the motor pool. In many cases, it would be safer to just keep the individual weapons "hot" versus the constant cycle of going "hot" then clearing.

It would certainly be safer to keep individual weapons hot, but it would make too much sense. Think about it, you can walk around all day, and do everything else but you magically need a cleared weapon to eat ? Have bad guys not noticed this ? Seems to make a DFAC a perfect place for a green on blue attack.

[psalms144.1]

It may seem needless until you see the number of negligent discharges that go into those clearing barrels with that last step of pull the trigger or until you hear a crew served weapon loose a short burst in the motor pool. In many cases, it would be safer to just keep the individual weapons "hot" versus the constant cycle of going "hot" then clearing.Trust me, I saw PLENTY of NDs in my Active Duty time (including having an Instructor launch a 7.62 round from a M60 between my feet at a range that led to my BDUs being scorched), but if we DON'T press the trigger, the weapons WON'T go off. There may be a round in the chamber, but it won't detonate by itself without outside influence.

In today's military, dealing with individual weapons, a "hot" chamber with hammer decocked (M9) or safety engaged (M4/M240) is completely safe. No reason to pull the trigger unless you want to make the loud noise. Of course, this is just one person's opinion, obviously, and worth precisely what you've paid for it.

[Tokarev]

Right in the Keefe article posted on American Rifleman:

If you look closely, you will see more than one soldier with his thumb bent and tucked up against the left side of the frame with his strong hand. That’s probably because these soldiers have been issued nothing but the M9—a pistol that has its manual safety and decocker on the slide, not a feature the Army was looking for in its next handgun.

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[StraitR]

It may seem needless until you see the number of negligent discharges that go into those clearing barrels with that last step of pull the trigger or until you hear a crew served weapon loose a short burst in the motor pool. In many cases, it would be safer to just keep the individual weapons "hot" versus the constant cycle of going "hot" then clearing.

While not exactly black and white, I would generally agree with this.

At the various commands I spent time at, both Navy and ANG, individual weapons were treated in such a way that it was assumed they were clear when not in the field or on a firing line. I think all the weapons condition procedures and protocols introduce complacency, and agree that there is an excess of administrative handling. At the time (94-00), I really didn't question it, but it became quite clear after getting out and participating in more civilian firearms training and events that there was much institutional inertia when it came to firearms handling in the military. I saw the same later as a civilian while facilitating combat convoy training for the USMC at 29 Palms and for the big Army at Aberdeen.

[psalms144.1]

At the various commands I spent time at, both Navy and ANG, individual weapons were treated in such a way that it was assumed they were clear when not in the field or on a firing line.Quoted for truth. I can't tell you how many times I've seen careless gun handling by .mil and LEOs in training environments. "It's been cleared!" is the exclamation when you call someone out. That's because we as trainers/leaders compulsively make folks clear, clear, and clear - to the point where folks assume the weapon is clear. Still doesn't excuse violating rules 2-4. I've told before the story of a Marine who developed the habit of "training" weapons take aways with a live M9 in a combat zone, because it's always clear on base, right? These "training sessions" started with the Marine pulling his pistol, pointing it at a team mate, and, in some cases, pulling the trigger. Not surprisingly, eventually this resulted in a 9mm FMJ traversing a team mates head...

Sorry for the thread drift...

[DocGKR]

Tokarev-most of the articles I've read by Keefe have contained significant errors of fact.

[JSGlock34]

I have no doubt that substandard techniques remain in use in the Army. These images are from the 2003 version of TC 3-23.35 (Combat Training with Pistols, M9 and M11).

22083
22082
22084

On the other hand, the May 2017 version of 3-23.35 (Pistol) (http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN3524_TC%203-23x35%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf)is out and is much better.

22086

[Zincwarrior]

I have no doubt that substandard techniques remain in use in the Army. These images are from the 2003 version of TC 3-23.35 (Combat Training with Pistols, M9 and M11).

22083
22082
22084

On the other hand, the May 2017 version of 3-23.35 (Pistol) (http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN3524_TC%203-23x35%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf)is out and is much better.

22086

Wow. Those are bad.
Also is it my eyes or does it look like that in the last pic, the shooter would get their right hand thumb smashed by the safety as it moved back and forth?

[JSGlock34]

Wow. Those are bad.
Also is it my eyes or does it look like that in the last pic, the shooter would get their right hand thumb smashed by the safety as it moved back and forth?

The last pic represents the preferred technique. No smashing involved in my experience. Perhaps this picture from the same manual represents the thumb placement better?

22091

[Zincwarrior]

Much better. Thanks!

[Tokarev]

I have no doubt that substandard techniques remain in use in the Army. These images are from the 2003 version of TC 3-23.35 (Combat Training with Pistols, M9 and M11).

22083
22082
22084

On the other hand, the May 2017 version of 3-23.35 (Pistol) (http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN3524_TC%203-23x35%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf)is out and is much better.

22086Those are the options taught when I went to MP School 20 years ago.

I'm glad to see that's changing.

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[Cory]

Those are the options taught when I went to MP School 20 years ago.

I'm glad to see that's changing.

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Those techniques are not what I was taught as of 09. During my brief bit as a state premobilzation instructor they aren't what I used for teaching either. All materials reflected a better grip, like the last picture in that thread.

That last picture may make it appear that the thumb would be hit by the safety, but it isn't. The thumb tends to be further out from the slide. I'm honestly surprised this is even a point of concern. I've never heard anyone mention the safety hammering them when the slide comes forward, and having shot plenty I can't even picture it happening.

Anyway, I wonder who is getting the new M9s that are coming off the line.

-Cory

[lueckenhoff]

(Removed duplicate)

[lueckenhoff]

Sorry I'm not especially fluent in military lingo. What the hell does "tighter dispersion" mean?

It means the person making that statement is full of shit.

By that, I mean it’s *really* unlikely the M17 is more accurate than M9.

[Gadfly]

Side note, On the subject of clearing barrels....

In the cop world, we wear our pistols all day. In the office, in the car, at lunch, in the bathroom... none of them seem to go off as they sit in the holster. Why can’t the army see this? Load up, top off, holster up, and move on with a hot pistol for the day.

The FDC (Federal Detention center, jail) makes us clear our pistols before we lock them up. There is a clearing barrel with holes in it, and holes in the wall... The county jail just has us put our loaded pistols into lock boxes. No holes in the wall or in the lockers. We call that a clue.



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[Drang]

Second, with regard to this whole ‘barrel clearing’, as a civilian it simply boggles the mind why this is so. ‘Keep it in the holster’ seems a fairly straightforward concept in the civilian world. For those who would know: when did the use of these barrels start and what prompted them to be introduced?


Side note, On the subject of clearing barrels....

In the cop world, we wear our pistols all day. In the office, in the car, at lunch, in the bathroom... none of them seem to go off as they sit in the holster. Why can’t the army see this? Load up, top off, holster up, and move on with a hot pistol for the day.
Soldiers very, very rarely wander around all day every day with their issued sidearm.
You draw your sidearm when you show up for the range, or to go to the field, or to roll out for duty, for MPs.
Then you turn it in at the end of the day.

Most of the troops in that video have very little time handling a pistol. I've seen officers literally beg NCOs to teach the to shoot a handgun "So I can finally qualify before I make Major."

Seriously the veterans here repeatedly explain that weapons handling and training in the vast majority of the military leave much to be desired, so why the bogglement?

[JHC]

And yet there is a huge volume of candid photography from war zones of troops maintaining proper trigger finger and safety discipline. I think quite a few with dated experience might be surprised how many shooters there are. My son's 240 gunner was top MG'er in his Bde and reportedly is pure murder with the Mk19 on point targets past conventional wisdom's limits of the weapon. He's a 3 gun competitor too. They seem way more dialed in than anything I saw first hand in the '80s.

I think it's kind of similar to the routine dismissal of LEO marksmanship whereas they tend to win their fights nevertheless.

[Cory]

And yet there is a huge volume of candid photography from war zones of troops maintaining proper trigger finger and safety discipline. I think quite a few with dated experience might be surprised how many shooters there are. My son's 240 gunner was top MG'er in his Bde and reportedly is pure murder with the Mk19 on point targets past conventional wisdom's limits of the weapon. He's a 3 gun competitor too. They seem way more dialed in than anything I saw first hand in the '80s.

I think it's kind of similar to the routine dismissal of LEO marksmanship whereas they tend to win their fights nevertheless.

Some of that is a generation raised during war time. I only did one vacation in the sun, but a lot of better men than me kept going. During the 80s, we weren't in a conflict like we have been for the last 16 years. Sure there were conflicts, and good men died, but not on the current scale.

Some of that is a progression in the shooting sports, and the techniques used in shooting. As stuff like USPSA, IDPA, 3GN, Precision rifle, and the like grow it makes the shooting community as a whole improve. Better stances, grips, techniques, and more become common among the general shooting public. Maybe not to a proficient level but closer than before. Add in the growing "training" industry and you have even more improvement.

Between those who sign up knowing where they are headed, and the explosion of competition and training I think it's likely that a few in the service are serious skilled shooters.

I think it's worth mentioning that while shooting technique is often lacking among troops, generally weapon's safety isn't. Of course there are always a few individual standouts but I think while technique to shoot is often lacking, a raving mad NCO correcting a safety problem is pretty much standard. As an institution the Army pushes safety to a point that is sometimes insane. With the number of people in the Army you're going to always have someone who gets it wrong. On the whole I think weapons safety is probably pushed more than shooting technique even if there aren't 4 hour blocks of instruction about safety. It's a constant.

-Cory

[John Hearne]

Let's be honest, the first rule is don't kill each other. Then, we worry about killing the enemy.

As long as your not fighting a peer force, this will work. If we ever go up a against a first world power, the lack of skill will have ugly consequences.

[Gadfly]

so why the bogglement?

The bogglement is still, "why have them unload the pistol just to enter the chow hall or other structure"...

I get that have different rules than police. I get they have to sign out and hand in the pistol daily. But once drawn and hot, why make them finger bang it every time they enter/exit certain buildings? (It is my understanding this is a requirement overseas...) After 19 years in the G, I get that the army and gov in general has no rationality, but still...




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[HCM]

Soldiers very, very rarely wander around all day every day with their issued sidearm.
You draw your sidearm when you show up for the range, or to go to the field, or to roll out for duty, for MPs.
Then you turn it in at the end of the day.

Most of the troops in that video have very little time handling a pistol. I've seen officers literally beg NCOs to teach the to shoot a handgun "So I can finally qualify before I make Major."

Seriously the veterans here repeatedly explain that weapons handling and training in the vast majority of the military leave much to be desired, so why the bogglement?

Stateside / pre 9/11 you are 100% correct.

I’m talking about in Iraq and Afghanistan where troops are actually carrying their sidearm all the time on base.

[JHC]

Stateside / pre 9/11 you are 100% correct.

I’m talking about in Iraq and Afghanistan where troops are actually carrying their sidearm all the time on base.

And I'm reading that the Army intends to "dual arm" team leaders and above across Infantry units. That's a lot more pistols to be in circulation.

[texasaggie2005]

The bogglement is still, "why have them unload the pistol just to enter the chow hall or other structure"...

I get that have different rules than police. I get they have to sign out and hand in the pistol daily. But once drawn and hot, why make them finger bang it every time they enter/exit certain buildings? (It is my understanding this is a requirement overseas...) After 19 years in the G, I get that the army and gov in general has no rationality, but still...




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My brother has told me a few stories of poor pistol handling he has personally been around for, and he directly blames on a lack of regular pistol training. He absolutely hated the amount of times a day he had load/unload while on certain bases overseas.

1) watched a service member ND three times into a clearing barrel while trying to get into the FOB cafeteria. Apparently, they forgot to drop the magazine before racking the slide to eject the chambered round and pulling the trigger.

2) watched a service member ND into a clearing barrel, then drop the pistol into the sand in shock.

3) courtmartialed a service member who ND'ed a privately owned Glock while on reserve duty in a .gov van.

(branch, rank & gender withheld)

[Kevin B.]

The bogglement is still, "why have them unload the pistol just to enter the chow hall or other structure"...

I get that have different rules than police. I get they have to sign out and hand in the pistol daily. But once drawn and hot, why make them finger bang it every time they enter/exit certain buildings? (It is my understanding this is a requirement overseas...) After 19 years in the G, I get that the army and gov in general has no rationality, but still...

There is a uninformed logic to it. I do not agree with it, but I understand it.

Much of what is being described is far from universal. On my last tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan I was never required to clear my weapon except at the U.S. Embassy. Policies on clearing barrels, weapon status, etc. much like training is largely dependent on leadership.

Good leadership ensures quality training is conducted and insulates Soldiers from ill-advised/ill-informed policies.

[StraitR]

Stateside / pre 9/11 you are 100% correct.

I’m talking about in Iraq and Afghanistan where troops are actually carrying their sidearm all the time on base.

This is not directed at you HCM, just using your comment to clarify mine. For the record, I'm speaking only on my experience CONUS, Pearl Harbor, and my deployment two deployments (one Navy, one ARG), neither of which were in current or official combat zones.

This was also nearly 18 years ago, so much could (has) probably changed as a result of the wars since my hard EAOS.

[ReverendMeat]

(branch, rank & gender withheld)

Well that's no fun at all.

[Tokarev]

Pics of the new handgun posted over on ar15.com

22193

22194

[JAD]

What was the approach to the thumb safety when the 1911 was issued?

I cannot imagine not riding the safety. I cannot conceive of a different way to use a pistol so equipped.

[StraitR]

What was the approach to the thumb safety when the 1911 was issued?

I cannot imagine not riding the safety. I cannot conceive of a different way to use a pistol so equipped.


I completely agree. That said, it seems the close proximity of safety and slide release may prove problematic for some hand sizes, such as your average Proctologist. I've not handled one, so this is pure speculation based on pics in this thread.

[JHC]

What was the approach to the thumb safety when the 1911 was issued?

I cannot imagine not riding the safety. I cannot conceive of a different way to use a pistol so equipped.

Back in the 70's when I first learned it, thumb riding safety was not the only way. Locking it down with the support hand thumb away from the safety was legit and how I did it until just a relatively few years ago.

Here in the old Jeff Cooper TV documentary you can catch a glimpse of some of that thumb locked down business. One of the better glimpses is caught at about the 11:00 mark. Was that Chuck Taylor btw?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j35de2QOd4

[HCountyGuy]

What about having your dominant hand thumb wrap widely over the base of your support hand thumb?

It's how I shoot when I shoot Sigs to keep off the slide release, though I admittedly have not shot with a safety. To me, it looks like it could work.

[03RN]

What about having your dominant hand thumb wrap widely over the base of your support hand thumb?

It's how I shoot when I shoot Sigs to keep off the slide release, though I admittedly have not shot with a safety. To me, it looks like it could work.

I always just cut mine off

http://i61.tinypic.com/33m8t44.jpg

[Wendell]

Soldiers of the 101st test firing the M17 pistol at the range on Dec. 5, 2017. These Soldiers are among the first to fire the Army's new handgun.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-0WvOusRuQ

[RevolverRob]

Side note, On the subject of clearing barrels....

In the cop world, we wear our pistols all day. In the office, in the car, at lunch, in the bathroom... none of them seem to go off as they sit in the holster. Why can’t the army see this? Load up, top off, holster up, and move on with a hot pistol for the day.

The FDC (Federal Detention center, jail) makes us clear our pistols before we lock them up. There is a clearing barrel with holes in it, and holes in the wall... The county jail just has us put our loaded pistols into lock boxes. No holes in the wall or in the lockers. We call that a clue.


Thank you. I had this same exact thought.

I was basically thinking, "Okay, look, I know cops aren't always avoiding NDs, etc. But they load their guns and carry them loaded constantly, and manage to avoid shooting themselves or anything else negligently 99% of the time. It seems to me that loading guns and following Rule 1 - makes the most damn sense, period."

Of course, recognizing that .Mil is largely leadership dependent does make a difference. When my best bud was in and deployed to Iraq (101st when Petraeus was in charge), he said things were a bit hit and miss with respect to clearing guns/ammunition distribution/training and that was largely dependent on the Battalion/Company Commanders. But I will recall his words to me when on furlough from deployment, "Dude...there are a lot of people I wouldn't trust with a loaded gun there. They are just...stupid." As it is, despite being a convoy truck driver, he was never issued an M9. And his M4 spent 95% of its time sitting on the dash of his truck...

[Redhat]

I have XXL hands and have never had an issue with the safety whacking my thumb when shooting Beretta 92 variants with a proper thumbs forward / "Shaw" type grip. This despite the fact, normally if a gun can bite / or whack part of your hand it will happen to me....

I've never even seen or heard of this thumb whacking...but I guess anything's possible. I have been bitten frequently by my G19 though...

[Redhat]

My brother has told me a few stories of poor pistol handling he has personally been around for, and he directly blames on a lack of regular pistol training. He absolutely hated the amount of times a day he had load/unload while on certain bases overseas.

1) watched a service member ND three times into a clearing barrel while trying to get into the FOB cafeteria. Apparently, they forgot to drop the magazine before racking the slide to eject the chambered round and pulling the trigger.

2) watched a service member ND into a clearing barrel, then drop the pistol into the sand in shock.

3) courtmartialed a service member who ND'ed a privately owned Glock while on reserve duty in a .gov van.

(branch, rank & gender withheld)

Pulling a trigger to verify a gun is unloaded never made any sense to me.

[JSGlock34]

Military Times: Sig Sauer to Offer Commercial Version of Army's New Sidearm (https://www.military.com/kitup/2017/12/09/sig-sauer-offer-commercial-version-armys-new-sidearm.html)

The 10-year agreement calls for Sig to supply the Army with full-size XM17 and compact XM18 versions of its 9mm pistol. The pistols will become the M17 and M18 after they are type-classified.

Each commercial MHS will be serialized and have serialized matching coin as well as a letter of authenticity from the CEO of Sig Sauer, Taylor said.

Sig Sauer would likely be able to sell more than 5,000 of these pistols, but Taylor said, "we just wanted to make it really special. ... And once they are out there, the owners will be privileged to own the actual gun."

The commercial version will be almost identical to the Army-issue, full-size MHS, except it will not have the anti-tamper mechanism for the striker action, nor will it have the special coatings on some of the internal parts that help it maintain lubricity under harsh conditions, Taylor said.

The Army MHS comes standard with a frame-mounted thumb safety. The commercial version will be available with or without the thumb safety, depending on customer preference, Taylor said.

Sig Sauer has not yet decided on a price tag for the endeavor.

[Redhat]

Military Times: Sig Sauer to Offer Commercial Version of Army's New Sidearm (https://www.military.com/kitup/2017/12/09/sig-sauer-offer-commercial-version-armys-new-sidearm.html)

The commercial version will be almost identical to the Army-issue, full-size MHS, except it will not have the anti-tamper mechanism for the striker action[/I]

Anti-tamper striker mechanism....that sounds interesting. What is it and how does it work?

[Drang]

Anti-tamper striker mechanism....that sounds interesting. What is it and how does it work?

My guess is, it keeps Specialist Schmukatelo from fucking with his sidearm.

[Redhat]

My guess is, it keeps Specialist Schmukatelo from fucking with his sidearm.

Yeah that sounds like the obvious intent...also sounds like a great way to disable the weapon if he messes with it anyway
How'd they ever get along without it on the M9?

[JSGlock34]

Anti-tamper striker mechanism....that sounds interesting. What is it and how does it work?

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/img_1703.jpg

Nothing to get excited about; they're just making it so you have to use a specific armorer tool to access the striker.

ETA: Tom beat me too it handily.

[Bill]

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/img_1703.jpg

Nothing to get excited about; they're just making it so you have to use a specific armorer tool to access the striker.

ETA: Tom beat me too it handily.

My understanding is that the Army ultimately decided to skip the lock outs on the striker and takedown pin afterall. Its not 100% clear, but in that recently posted video of the 101st shooting their new pistols, both the striker assemmbly and takedown lever appear normal, non-lockout-y.

[JSGlock34]

My understanding is that the Army ultimately decided to skip the lock outs on the striker and takedown pin afterall. Its not 100% clear, but in that recently posted video of the 101st shooting their new pistols, both the striker assemmbly and takedown lever appear normal, non-lockout-y.

I hadn't really been looking for it in the video, but now that you mention it, they do appear absent from the pistols fielded to the 101st. (Skip to 2:13 for a good view of the rear of the pistol)


https://youtu.be/sc-pQH9GSxA?t=133

[Drang]

Yeah that sounds like the obvious intent...also sounds like a great way to disable the weapon if he messes with it anyway
How'd they ever get along without it on the M9?

M9 wasn't "modular."

Don't recall that it was an issue when I was in, but now I wonder if there are issues with Schmukatello messing with his M16/M4...

[Tokarev]

Some fairly decent photos of the pistol.

https://www.military.com/kitup/2017/11/29/photos-soldiers-get-new-m17-modular-handgun-system.html

[JRB]

M9 wasn't "modular."

Don't recall that it was an issue when I was in, but now I wonder if there are issues with Schmukatello messing with his M16/M4...

Certainly isn't an issue with M9s. Though every once in awhile you'll see a guy bring his own M9 magazines - but that's usually because the M9 mags provided are the old parkerized ones that suck, and usually have tired mag springs. By the time a guy's bringing his own M9 magazines, you usually don't need to worry about them.

On issued M4s/M16s, there's a lot of folks who use a personally owned sling on their M4/M16. Past that there's an occasional AFG or grip swap, or a personally owned optic (that has a valid NSN and is authorized) and Pmags of course if they're authorized.


That said, these anti-tamper striker mechanisms won't stop that special 1 in 1000 SPC Schmukatello they're trying to deter. They're only making the repair of SPC Schmukatello's antics that much more complicated.
But SPC Schmuky will figure it out a week into his first field problem with that pistol, and there'll be a youtube tutorial showing how to remove that stuff with two paperclips and a Gerber Multi-tool.

[JHC]

I hadn't really been looking for it in the video, but now that you mention it, they do appear absent from the pistols fielded to the 101st. (Skip to 2:13 for a good view of the rear of the pistol)


https://youtu.be/sc-pQH9GSxA?t=133

They did omit them. I heard they triggered slamfires. I KID, I KID ;)

[Drang]

But SPC Schmuky will figure it out a week into his first field problem with that pistol, and there'll be a youtube tutorial showing how to remove that stuff with two paperclips and a Gerber Multi-tool.That's probably why they left the "features"out. They look like they take the same key as the trigger lock my father put on my BB gun, which I figured out how to bypass the first time I lost the key...

[Tokarev]

SIG is going to sell an M17 civilian version.

https://www.tactical-life.com/news/army-m17-pistol-civilian-version/

[Wendell]

...virtually identical to the Army MHS, except it won’t have the anti-tamper mechanism for the striker action, and it won’t come with the special coatings found on some of the internal parts which help the gun keep its lubricity in tough conditions. In addition, users will have the option of buying the gun with or without the thumb safety. The Army model comes standard with a thumb safety mounted on the frame. Reports say each serialized civilian M17 sold comes with a serialized matching coin. It will also include a letter of authenticity from Sig CEO Ron Cohen...

https://www.tactical-life.com/news/army-m17-pistol-civilian-version/

CEO Ron Cohen

[leathermaneod]

Oh goodie!


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[KhanRad]

CEO Ron Cohen

A coin! Holy crap d**k Batman! Why the hell can't Cohen just coat the damn internals?......seriously?

[tcba_joe]

I'm really looking forward to the M17 civilian release. I did a substantial amount of testing of the preproduction P320 and never got around to buying one. I figure the M17 would be the most important version to buy and eventually pass to my kids.

I was hoping that it wouldn't be a special release item, but the limited nature is putting a fire under my butt. So long as I can get the manual safety and they don't do something stupid like use the Romeo optics cut instead of the mil issue DPP cut I'm in for one.

[Tokarev]

I'm really looking forward to the M17 civilian release. I did a substantial amount of testing of the preproduction P320 and never got around to buying one. I figure the M17 would be the most important version to buy and eventually pass to my kids.

I was hoping that it wouldn't be a special release item, but the limited nature is putting a fire under my butt. So long as I can get the manual safety and they don't do something stupid like use the Romeo optics cut instead of the mil issue DPP cut I'm in for one.Limited run until it isn't I guess.

I bought a SIG 1911 C3 because a SIG rep told me it was a limited run. Apparently that was true but the public clamour was enough that it became a regular catalog item.

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[tcba_joe]

Limited run until it isn't I guess.

I bought a SIG 1911 C3 because a SIG rep told me it was a limited run. Apparently that was true but the public clamour was enough that it became a regular catalog item.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
I hope you're right. It's absurd that the M17 and M18 wouldn't be permanent stocking items.

[HCM]

Limited run unless it sells well.

I bought a SIG 1911 C3 because a SIG rep told me it was a limited run. Apparently that was true but the public clamour was enough that it became a regular catalog item.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

FIFY

[Tokarev]

I hope you're right. It's absurd that the M17 and M18 wouldn't be permanent stocking items.Yes. Absolutely should be a standard item. It took Beretta way too long. By the time they launched the M9 civilian model nobody cared.

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[GJM]

Ultimate 320 drop test:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/22/air-force-testing-mhs-handgun-ejection-seats/

[Wendell]

Upon first looking through the photos, I thought that putting the handguns in nylon holsters, MOLLE-ed to the flight vests was maybe just a testing procedure and that fighter pilots didn’t actually use Walmart-like nylon holsters with plastic clips. But through some investigation, they actually do! From a shooting performance standpoint, these holsters are not very desirable. However, for a fighter pilot, it makes some sense. These service handguns aren’t being constantly drawn; if they even are drawn it is because the pilot has been ejected from his aircraft and must either hunt animals for food (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/21/henrys-survival-rifle-ar-7-novelty-necessity/) or immediate self-defense against an enemy. Having a high-speed Safariland holster isn’t entirely necessary for this matter, and might actually be detrimental with modern day jets looking to cut down on as much weight as possible (every ounce counts right?).

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/22/air-force-testing-mhs-handgun-ejection-seats/

Reading this article makes me better understand LTC nutnfancy's peculiar style of operating.

[TiroFijo]

Ultimate 320 drop test:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/22/air-force-testing-mhs-handgun-ejection-seats/

Chamber empty carry for AF?

[apg06]

Chamber empty carry for AF?For aircrew, when flying. Normal USAF carry with the M9 is round chambered, decocked, and safety off.

[StraitR]

Sig has never been shy about adding SKU's to their line-up. I can't imagine they would win the M17/18 contract but only sell commercial versions as limited editions.

[TiroFijo]

For aircrew, when flying. Normal USAF carry with the M9 is round chambered, decocked, and safety off.

IMO, in an airplane the chain of events to eventually use the pistol is such that chamber empty does not feel out of place.

[Tokarev]

Another article.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/01/02/watch-soldiers-shoot-the-armys-new-handgun-for-the-first-time/

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[JSGlock34]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZOZZ5F-rz0

[tcba_joe]

I'm starting to get pissed off with their company line of "we made X for the Army but consumers really want Y so we changed it"...
No, consumers want the military gun.

I'm annoyed they can't seem to just release "off the line" gun packages. But as long as I can mount a DPP and it has a manual safety I'm willing to concede "good enough". I was in testing right before it was released to market, and I never got to buying one. To me (also a former Army officer), I see the M17 the most important variant to own and hand down to my kids. I'm setting money aside and hopefully I'll be able to get one as soon as they are released.

[HCM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZOZZ5F-rz0

Most interesting thing about the video is the mention of SIG making a Romeo optic with a Delta Point PRO footprint.

With the M17 using the DPP footprint hopefully other manufacturers like Trijicon will follow suit.

I don’t know if the DPP is the best footprint but it would be nice to finally have a common standard.

[Tokarev]

Another video.

P365 is shown first. M17 immediately after.

https://youtu.be/V9j0gsUKGcM

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[Drang]

I'm starting to get pissed off with their company line of "we made X for the Army but consumers really want Y so we changed it"...
No, consumers want the military gun.
Consumers want Shields, G42s, and LCPs.

[RJ]

Anybody corroborate this?

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18047/armys-new-pistols-often-eject-live-rounds-and-dont-work-well-with-regular-bullets

“The U.S. Army’s decision to select two versions of Sig Sauer’s 9mm P320 pistol as the new standard sidearms across the service was not without controversy, including a formal protest by competing gun maker Glock, which claimed the service didn't complete certain critical tests. The Pentagon recently released a report that shows testing of the M17 and M18 handguns exposed a number of significant and persistent deficiencies, including firing accidentally if a shooter dropped the gun, ejecting live ammunition, and low reliability with traditional "ball" cartridges with bullets enclosed inside a full metal jacket. “

The article is datelined today, 1/29.

[Bill]

The actual pentagon document is linked in the article. Click on here: http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/ Then on the Army Program drop down menu, the MHS document is the last option.

It appears that the guns tested had some problems with ball ammo, but that most of those stoppages were failures to lock back on an empty mag, so nothing too crucial. Maybe a shooter induced issue, or maybe the 115 grn ammo is just slightly underpowered for the recoil spring weight. Guns ran pretty well with the 147 hollow point "special purpose rounds."

The guns also had a weird habit of ejecting live rounds along with spent cases during operation. Problem got worse as testing proceeded. Thats a weird malfunction, and not one I've ever heard of before. Magazine issue maybe? Something in the slide interacting with the next round problematically during the rearward ejection cycle? Rounds sliding forward out of the feed lips while the previous round is being fed? Beats me.

Another interesting note is the documentation of the failure of the drop test leading to the lightened trigger components. . and that fix potentially led to trigger shoes splintering. The document notes two instances where the actual trigger shoe splintered, and the suspected reason is the lightened component.

The report concludes with the following, copied and pasted directly:

"Recommendations
• Status of Previous Recommendations. This is the first annual
report for this program.
• FY17 Recommendations. The Army should:
1. Upon identification of the root cause of the double ejections
and ball ammunition relability problems, confirm fixes to
both the XM17 and XM18 in future testing.
2. Work with the vendor to identify and eliminate cause
of variability in the manufacture of the trigger group
mechanism.
3. Consider redesign of the slide catch lever or operator
training changes to prevent engagement by operators while
shooting the pistol. "

[Alma]

That article is a hack job. According to the actual report the majority of stoppages were failures to lock back the slide and were caused by 8 of 132 testers.

"The predominant cause of stoppages was the failure of the slide to lock (FSLR) after the firing of the last round in the magazine (60 of 120 stoppages for the XM17 and 63 of 85 stoppages for the XM18). The purpose of the slide locking to the rear is to inform the operator that the last round has been expended, and that the operator needs to reload a magazine into the weapon. Operators who are trained in pistol qualification, as taught by the Army marksmanship unit, utilize what is known as a high pistol grip. This grip places the non-dominant hand along the pistol slide on top of the slide catch lever. Many operators stated that the placement of the slide catch lever caused them to engage it while firing the pistol, which resulted in the slide not locking to the rear when the last round was expended in a magazine. Sixty percent of all FSLR stoppages (75 of 123) were experienced by 8 shooters out of the 132 who participated in the IOT&E.
The Army marksmanship unit experts stated that this is an insignificant problem that can be mitigated with training and experience with the weapon. The MRBS demonstrated during IOT&E is significantly increased if this stoppage is eliminated:
- The XM17 demonstrated 708 MRBS (87 percent probability).
- The XM18 demonstrated 950 MRBS (90 percent probability)."

[BillSWPA]

My first question is exactly who received a kickback so that they would approve a pistol with test results as bad as those reported in the article.

[Bill]

Granted, there's some confirmation bias at play, but everything I continue to see regarding the Sig's says the Army would've been better served with either the 19x or the M9a3

[PNWTO]

Granted, there's some confirmation bias at play, but everything I continue to see regarding the Sig's says the Army would've been better served with either the 19x or the M9a3

The M9A3 ECP made so much sense it was easy to tell the Army would fuck it up.

Even a G19 acquisition program was too smart to work.

Neither option would have inflated egos in Army brass.

[HopetonBrown]

A much celebrated firearms instructor told our class that the Sig's slide stop lever was placed where most thumbs would foul it because it was designed by "gay Europeans who don't shoot pistols".*


*or something like that

[JSGlock34]

Interesting that the Army identified the drop safety issue and instructed SIG to make changes. Amazing that the contract was awarded before these tests.

• During drop testing in which an empty primed cartridge was inserted, the striker struck the primer causing a discharge. SIG SAUER implemented an Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) to correct this deficiency by implementing lightweight components in the trigger group mechanism. This may have contributed to the splintering of two triggers during the IOT&E.

• During drop testing in which an empty primed cartridge was inserted, the striker struck the primer causing a discharge. The Army directed SIG SAUER to develop an ECP to correct this deficiency. SIG SAUER modified the trigger mechanism to eliminate this deficiency. Subsequent testing validated that this ECP corrected the deficiency and the pistol no longer fired when dropped. The MHS with this ECP modification was submitted as the production-representative pistol for PVT, LFT&E, and IOT&E.

I think Gio called this one...


Translation of Sig's press release (in bold):

Newington, NH (August 8, 2017) – The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI®), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies. You're not dropping it right.

The design of the SIG SAUER P320 overcomes the most significant safety concern in striker-fired pistols today: the practice of pressing the trigger for disassembly. This can be performed with a round in the chamber which has resulted in numerous incidents of property damage, physical injury, and death. The disassembly process of the P320, however, uses a take-down lever rather than pressing the trigger, eliminating the possibility of discharge during the disassembly process. Deflect negative attention to Glock.

Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge. Shit.

As a result of input from law enforcement, government and military customers, SIG has developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability, and overall safety including drop performance. SIG SAUER is offering these enhancements to its customers. Details of this program will be available at sigsauer.com on Monday, August 14, 2017. We think we know what will fix it but not 100% sure. Standby until Monday...

The M17 variant of the P320, selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), is not affected by the Voluntary Upgrade. We made sure this problem we've known about for awhile was designed out of the guns submitted for the military, FBI, and other major contracts.

“SIG SAUER is committed to our approach on innovation, optimization, and performance, ensuring we produce the finest possible products,” said Ron Cohen, President and CEO of SIG SAUER. “Durability, reliability and safety, as well as end-user confidence in the SIG SAUER brand are the priorities for our team.”

[call_me_ski]

That article is a hack job. According to the actual report the majority of stoppages were failures to lock back the slide and were caused by 8 of 132 testers.

"The predominant cause of stoppages was the failure of the slide to lock (FSLR) after the firing of the last round in the magazine (60 of 120 stoppages for the XM17 and 63 of 85 stoppages for the XM18). The purpose of the slide locking to the rear is to inform the operator that the last round has been expended, and that the operator needs to reload a magazine into the weapon. Operators who are trained in pistol qualification, as taught by the Army marksmanship unit, utilize what is known as a high pistol grip. This grip places the non-dominant hand along the pistol slide on top of the slide catch lever. Many operators stated that the placement of the slide catch lever caused them to engage it while firing the pistol, which resulted in the slide not locking to the rear when the last round was expended in a magazine. Sixty percent of all FSLR stoppages (75 of 123) were experienced by 8 shooters out of the 132 who participated in the IOT&E.
The Army marksmanship unit experts stated that this is an insignificant problem that can be mitigated with training and experience with the weapon. The MRBS demonstrated during IOT&E is significantly increased if this stoppage is eliminated:
- The XM17 demonstrated 708 MRBS (87 percent probability).
- The XM18 demonstrated 950 MRBS (90 percent probability)."

You do realize that the portion of the report you quoted states that when eliminating that specific malfunction the pistols still fail to meet their MRBS requirements by at least 5% with ball ammo right?

Edit: When you think this program can't get worse, it does.

[LockedBreech]

I am officially declaring my position as a stick-in-the-mud about the M17/18. They should've stuck with the M9, specifically with the M9A3 engineering change proposal.

It may well be that the P320 will mature into a highly capable pistol. I hope it does. I am not a child and I do not want a police and military gun to fail for petty fanboy reasons. But the fact of the matter is that for the ways and reasons the U.S. armed forces use a sidearm, at the time the selection was carried out, the M9A3 was a better and far more proven way to spend taxpayer dollars.

I am fully aware of the irony that I applaud the M9 series and 1911 guys have long said and many still say say the same stuff about it, but that awareness does not change my position.

[BillSWPA]

That article is a hack job. According to the actual report the majority of stoppages were failures to lock back the slide and were caused by 8 of 132 testers.

"The predominant cause of stoppages was the failure of the slide to lock (FSLR) after the firing of the last round in the magazine (60 of 120 stoppages for the XM17 and 63 of 85 stoppages for the XM18). The purpose of the slide locking to the rear is to inform the operator that the last round has been expended, and that the operator needs to reload a magazine into the weapon. Operators who are trained in pistol qualification, as taught by the Army marksmanship unit, utilize what is known as a high pistol grip. This grip places the non-dominant hand along the pistol slide on top of the slide catch lever. Many operators stated that the placement of the slide catch lever caused them to engage it while firing the pistol, which resulted in the slide not locking to the rear when the last round was expended in a magazine. Sixty percent of all FSLR stoppages (75 of 123) were experienced by 8 shooters out of the 132 who participated in the IOT&E.
The Army marksmanship unit experts stated that this is an insignificant problem that can be mitigated with training and experience with the weapon. The MRBS demonstrated during IOT&E is significantly increased if this stoppage is eliminated:
- The XM17 demonstrated 708 MRBS (87 percent probability).
- The XM18 demonstrated 950 MRBS (90 percent probability)."

That is still a mean rounds between stoppages that i would only reluctantly accept from a pocket pistol or a revolver, and is unacceptable for a larger semiautomatic handgun. MRBS for a Beretta, a Glock, or a properly maintained 1911 with good magazines is easily in the thousands, and any of these 3 choices makes safety when the gun is dropped a non- issue.


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[JHC]

A much celebrated firearms instructor told our class that the Sig's slide stop lever was placed where most thumbs would foul it because it was designed by "gay Europeans who don't shoot pistols".*


*or something like that

I KNOW I know that guy. :D

[JHC]

Interesting that the Army identified the drop safety issue and instructed SIG to make changes. Amazing that the contract was awarded before these tests.

• During drop testing in which an empty primed cartridge was inserted, the striker struck the primer causing a discharge. SIG SAUER implemented an Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) to correct this deficiency by implementing lightweight components in the trigger group mechanism. This may have contributed to the splintering of two triggers during the IOT&E.

• During drop testing in which an empty primed cartridge was inserted, the striker struck the primer causing a discharge. The Army directed SIG SAUER to develop an ECP to correct this deficiency. SIG SAUER modified the trigger mechanism to eliminate this deficiency. Subsequent testing validated that this ECP corrected the deficiency and the pistol no longer fired when dropped. The MHS with this ECP modification was submitted as the production-representative pistol for PVT, LFT&E, and IOT&E.

I think Gio called this one...

Yes they did. What a shit show. But Sig didn't know nothin' mannnn. Should be interesting.

Edit: regarding the bolded - which is probably the cause of the "trigger splintering" observed in some guns with the ECP implemented. See second to last bullet point before "Recommendations"

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/pdf/army/2017mhs.pdf

[MSparks909]

The stoppages with ball ammo is especially alarming to me. That and the obvious drop safety concerns...just wow.

[Doc_Glock]

Interesting that the Army identified the drop safety issue and instructed SIG to make changes. Amazing that the contract was awarded before these tests.

• During drop testing in which an empty primed cartridge was inserted, the striker struck the primer causing a discharge. SIG SAUER implemented an Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) to correct this deficiency by implementing lightweight components in the trigger group mechanism. This may have contributed to the splintering of two triggers during the IOT&E.

• During drop testing in which an empty primed cartridge was inserted, the striker struck the primer causing a discharge. The Army directed SIG SAUER to develop an ECP to correct this deficiency. SIG SAUER modified the trigger mechanism to eliminate this deficiency. Subsequent testing validated that this ECP corrected the deficiency and the pistol no longer fired when dropped. The MHS with this ECP modification was submitted as the production-representative pistol for PVT, LFT&E, and IOT&E.

I think @Gio (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=10650) called this one...


Am I correct in stating that this article pre-dates the Sig drop fire kerfluffle last fall? If so, f*ck Sig. Seriously. This is more evidence they knew all about the issue, yet continued to allow a dangerous defective weapon out to the public, then they lied about it and did not do an official recall when confronted. The Voluntary Upgrade is nice but inadequate and way too late.

I was tempted by the P365, but I can not support this company.

[MAP]

A post from FaceBook concerning M17 reliability:


So after having watched 600+ shooters and M17s come through my range over the last two weeks I saw the following malfunctions:
1)Limp wrist induced stove pipes.
2)Failure of slide to lock open due to riding the slide release.
3) Light primer strike. This was on one round and it fired after being reloaded. We fired over 100K rnds so a bad round is possible.
4) Two front sights that came out of their dovetail.

[RJ]

Am I correct in stating that this article pre-dates the Sig drop fire kerfluffle last fall?



Near as I can tell, the report, released Jan 18, is a summary of all OT&E activities across DoD covering FY17 (Oct 16 to Sep 17 IIRC), and includes as a small part of that, a four page executive summary on the MHS-specific OT&E testing in that period.

So, possibly, yes.

ETA: Huh:

https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/pentagon-weapons-testing-office-report-sig-mhs-xm17/

“One of the more interesting statements in the report is the fact that the Army discovered the drop fire issue with the XM17 pistols prior to it becoming known to the world with the P320 pistol...”

[Manbearspider]

So the SIG had a lousy MRBS/F even with tailor selected ammo, and the M9 is running fine (1/19,000) with ammo it doesn't like (source (https://www.military.com/kitup/2017/09/m9.html))... Are we going to get a modern Pentagon Wars remake any time soon featuring MHS?

[BillSWPA]

Am I correct in stating that this article pre-dates the Sig drop fire kerfluffle last fall? If so, f*ck Sig. Seriously. This is more evidence they knew all about the issue, yet continued to allow a dangerous defective weapon out to the public, then they lied about it and did not do an official recall when confronted. The Voluntary Upgrade is nice but inadequate and way too late.

I was tempted by the P365, but I can not support this company.

Having 10 rounds of 9mm in a G43 size package would otherwise be vary tempting, but not with this track record. This makes some companies the Internet loves to make fun of look good.

Unfortunately the trend of lining one’s pockets regardless of whether your product or service is doing the customer any good has permeated numerous industries. Sig is far from being alone. Isn’t this what a testing protocol is supposed to avoid? As I write my tax checks to Uncle Sam, this horrendous waste of $ doesn’t make that pill any easier to swallow.

I still want to know who got a kickback and the GAO should wonder as well.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ichiban]

It looks like the fat lady hasn't sang yet.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18047/armys-new-pistols-often-eject-live-rounds-and-dont-work-well-with-regular-bullets

From the story:
"The Pentagon recently released a report that shows testing of the M17 and M18 handguns exposed a number of significant and persistent deficiencies, including firing accidentally if a shooter dropped the gun, ejecting live ammunition, and low reliability with traditional "ball" cartridges with bullets enclosed inside a full metal jacket. "

[Greg]

I'm not surprised to read that.

[Drang]

Start at post 174: US Army fields SIG M17 and M18 pistols - Page 18 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28756-US-Army-fields-SIG-M17-and-M18-pistols/page18)

[Wendell]

A x B x C = X


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dfDdEnQZPQ

[RJ]

edit: Drang beat me to it.

[Drang]

You owe me a coke.

Put some rum in it.

:cool:

[UNK]

Start at post 174: US Army fields SIG M17 and M18 pistols - Page 18 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28756-US-Army-fields-SIG-M17-and-M18-pistols/page18)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28756-US-Army-fields-SIG-M17-and-M18-pistols&p=704069&viewfull=1#post704069

Per Alma:

That article is a hack job. According to the actual report the majority of stoppages were failures to lock back the slide and were caused by 8 of 132 testers.

"The predominant cause of stoppages was the failure of the slide to lock (FSLR) after the firing of the last round in the magazine (60 of 120 stoppages for the XM17 and 63 of 85 stoppages for the XM18). The purpose of the slide locking to the rear is to inform the operator that the last round has been expended, and that the operator needs to reload a magazine into the weapon. Operators who are trained in pistol qualification, as taught by the Army marksmanship unit, utilize what is known as a high pistol grip. This grip places the non-dominant hand along the pistol slide on top of the slide catch lever. Many operators stated that the placement of the slide catch lever caused them to engage it while firing the pistol, which resulted in the slide not locking to the rear when the last round was expended in a magazine. Sixty percent of all FSLR stoppages (75 of 123) were experienced by 8 shooters out of the 132 who participated in the IOT&E.
The Army marksmanship unit experts stated that this is an insignificant problem that can be mitigated with training and experience with the weapon. The MRBS demonstrated during IOT&E is significantly increased if this stoppage is eliminated:
- The XM17 demonstrated 708 MRBS (87 percent probability).
- The XM18 demonstrated 950 MRBS (90 percent probability)."

[UNK]

Double Tap

[HCM]

Mods - can we get this merged into the M17/18 thread ?

[farscott]

This article raises another possible issue, but I have not delved into the MHS report to see if this is more "spin". Here is a snippet and a link to the article.


Perhaps more disconcerting, however, were the other issues the Pentagon’s testing exposed: in two instances, the trigger assemblies in pistols splintered apart during use [emphasis added] – an issue that had never come up before Sig implemented changes to the trigger to resolve the drop-test failure. This means the new components intended to solve one problem may have inadvertently caused another.

https://sofrep.com/98976/dod-evaluation-says-armys-new-sig-sauer-p320-service-pistol-riddled-issues/

[Trooper224]

Clown shoes.

[farscott]

Link to MHS report. http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/pdf/army/2017mhs.pdf

Executive Summary


The Army selected SIG SAUER’s full-size (XM-17) and compact (XM-18) variant pistols for the Army Modular Handgun System (MHS), and awarded a production contract to SIG SAUER on January 19, 2017.

• The Army conducted operational and live fire testing for both variants in FY17. Analysis is ongoing for operational effectiveness, operational suitability, and lethality. DOT&E intends to submit a combined IOT&E/LFT&E report to Congress in 2QFY18.

• During drop testing in which an empty primed cartridge was inserted, the striker struck the primer causing a discharge. SIG SAUER implemented an Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) to correct this deficiency by implementing lightweight components in the trigger group mechanism. This fix may have contributed to the splintering of two triggers during the IOT&E.

• Both the XM17 and XM18 pistols experienced double-ejections where an unspent ball round was ejected along with a spent round. Due to the increased frequency of occurrence during Product Verification Test (PVT), the Army stood up a root cause analysis team to identify the cause of the double ejections in parallel with continued PVT. As of this report, this analysis is still ongoing.

• During the PVT testing, the MHS with ball ammunition demonstrated significantly more stoppages than with the special purpose munition.

• During IOT&E, the MHS with special purpose munition met its Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) reliability requirement. It did not meet its Mean Rounds Between Stoppage (MRBS) reliability requirement. For the MHS, a stoppage is defined as any deficiency that prevents the pistol from operating as intended, but is corrected through immediate action. A failure is defined as a hardware deficiency that requires replacement or repair. Slide stoppages accounted for 50 percent of XM17 stoppages, and 75 percent of the XM18 stoppages observed during IOT&E. In these stoppages, the slide failed to lock after users fired the last round in the magazine.

Recommendations


FY17 Recommendations. The Army should:

1. Upon identification of the root cause of the double ejections and ball ammunition relability problems, confirm fixes to both the XM17 and XM18 in future testing.

2. Work with the vendor to identify and eliminate cause of variability in the manufacture of the trigger group mechanism.

3. Consider redesign of the slide catch lever or operator training changes to prevent engagement by operators while shooting the pistol.

[kjr_29]

All the ammunition listed in the report are designated with the X prefix in front of their mil designation (e.g. XM1152) meaning these are new DODICs for DoD.

Any thoughts on the double ejection, which in the report, was relegated to the ball ammo (115gr truncated nose) as was the reduced reliability numbers - being new ammo related?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TiroFijo]

It seems they went adoption happy before due testing was finished...

[tcba_joe]

Consumers want Shields, G42s, and LCPs.

You know what I mean, I obviously wasn't referring to the entirety of the market. Niche consumers of an M17 model want an exact M17, not a modified and painted P320.

[Bucky]

Recommendations
...
3. Consider redesign of the slide catch lever or operator training changes to prevent engagement by operators while shooting the pistol.


Maybe Sig will finally get with the program and move the slide stop to where it belongs. ;)

Anyone remember when Ford started putting the horn on the turn signal?? :D

[MGW]

Sig reminds me more and more of Harley Davidson. It seems like they care more about selling their brand than they do about building quality products.

[DocGKR]

"It seems they went adoption happy before due testing was finished..."

The understatement of the year so far...

[JonInWA]

Sig reminds me more and more of Harley Davidson. It seems like they care more about selling their brand than they do about building quality products.

And I'm concurrently unclear as to why DoD would not have fulfilled ALL of the testing protocols prior to proceeding to contracting-and then there's the infamous SIG costing formula that DoD fell for, hook, line and sinker...

I do not have a particularly warm and fuzzy feeling regarding the viability of the M17/M18 under hard use or in severe environments. More and more I am suspecting that the Glock would have been a far better selection....

Best, Jon

[DocGKR]

"More and more I am suspecting that the Glock would have been a far better selection...."

Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you base this statement on Glock's several decades of highly successful field service in demanding combat conditions with the premier US military SOF units, as well Glock's proven track record with numerous LE organizations, not to mention Glock rising to the top of the comprehensive, correctly conducted FBI pistol testing.

[JHC]

And I'm concurrently unclear as to why DoD would not have fulfilled ALL of the testing protocols prior to proceeding to contracting-and then there's the infamous SIG costing formula that DoD fell for, hook, line and sinker...

I do not have a particularly warm and fuzzy feeling regarding the viability of the M17/M18 under hard use or in severe environments. More and more I am suspecting that the Glock would have been a far better selection....

Best, Jon

My take is the MHS was constructed as to allow a good enough "call it" early and take the money and run (I mean the $100M). Hence it passed GAO checks.
We can't assume there were pistol SMEs in Army acquisition making these calls. I mean, it's just a pistol right? ;)

[DAB]

"pick us, we're cheap"

"ok"

"but your pistols don't reliably feed common ball ammo"

"oh, well, shoot something else that costs more and weighs more"

"ok"

[El Cid]

This whole SNAFU wreaks of some flag officer making them select early so he can get a line in his promotion package that he did this "great" thing by providing war fighters a new sidearm.

[DAB]

and they narrowed it to "modular" striker fired. excluding 1911 types and M9 types.

why not ask for a 9mm pistol, capable of shooting ball and JHP ammo, min of 17 round mags, different sized grips, certain accuracy and reliability standards, with options for barrel length. let the market show you what is possible. why narrow your choices so fast? why change at all. current M9s worn out? get new ones. get the M9A3 even for the same dollar.

[JonInWA]

My take is the MHS was constructed as to allow a good enough "call it" early and take the money and run (I mean the $100M). Hence it passed GAO checks.
We can't assume there were pistol SMEs in Army acquisition making these calls. I mean, it's just a pistol right? ;)

But there should have been some contracting specialists taking a much more eagle-eyed view as to what submitted that constituted the gun per se, which allowed for their ridiculously low bid. Technically, they were correct, but someone really should have challenged their interpretation (and/or the DoD allowance of their interpretation to stand, paving the way for their price submission...).

And yes, it's just a pistol-but the process causes my eyebrows to be raised regarding other, far more technically involved/sophisticated contract processes. And then there's the possibility with troops being saddled with a POS firearm, inadequate in terms of reliability, durability and longevity. As a former company- and field-grade troop commander, I'm not a happy camper about this situation. When people/organizations get sloppy, lives can get lost. And it's not like this is the first weapons procurement, or the first pistol procurement process, or that the participants couldn't have dredged out the XM9 and XM10 (and other) processes, and used them as a guideline (and/or a heads-up for potential danger/controversy areas)

Best, Jon

[JHC]

Oh I hear ya!

[El Cid]

and they narrowed it to "modular" striker fired. excluding 1911 types and M9 types.

why not ask for a 9mm pistol, capable of shooting ball and JHP ammo, min of 17 round mags, different sized grips, certain accuracy and reliability standards, with options for barrel length. let the market show you what is possible. why narrow your choices so fast? why change at all. current M9s worn out? get new ones. get the M9A3 even for the same dollar.

Didn't I read somewhere that during his 8 years in office Obama ran off a lot of the true warriors from the military? Leaving behind political and even perhaps left leaning folks to run things?

If any procurement decision was begging for SECDEF to step in and fix things it's this one.

Anyone know if the other branches are obligated to buy from the Army contract or if they can do their own thing?

[JonInWA]

This whole SNAFU wreaks of some flag officer making them select early so he can get a line in his promotion package that he did this "great" thing by providing war fighters a new sidearm.

Especially since there was the recent converse that occurred, when a flag officer recommended simply doing a COTS purchasing for Glock G17/G19...Which I believe is what the USMC did (albeit it may have only been for a limited portion of the USMC, i.e. their Tier 1 community).

Best, Jon

[LockedBreech]

Sig reminds me more and more of Harley Davidson. It seems like they care more about selling their brand than they do about building quality products.

Absolutely true. I get that all gun companies engage in marketing heavily but sometimes it feels like Sig forgets they are a gun company. Why on earth would I pay for a challenge coin with my 226? How much of a poser am I!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jared]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28756-US-Army-fields-SIG-M17-and-M18-pistols&p=704069&viewfull=1#post704069

Per Alma:

That article is a hack job. According to the actual report the majority of stoppages were failures to lock back the slide and were caused by 8 of 132 testers.

"The predominant cause of stoppages was the failure of the slide to lock (FSLR) after the firing of the last round in the magazine (60 of 120 stoppages for the XM17 and 63 of 85 stoppages for the XM18). The purpose of the slide locking to the rear is to inform the operator that the last round has been expended, and that the operator needs to reload a magazine into the weapon. Operators who are trained in pistol qualification, as taught by the Army marksmanship unit, utilize what is known as a high pistol grip. This grip places the non-dominant hand along the pistol slide on top of the slide catch lever. Many operators stated that the placement of the slide catch lever caused them to engage it while firing the pistol, which resulted in the slide not locking to the rear when the last round was expended in a magazine. Sixty percent of all FSLR stoppages (75 of 123) were experienced by 8 shooters out of the 132 who participated in the IOT&E.
The Army marksmanship unit experts stated that this is an insignificant problem that can be mitigated with training and experience with the weapon. The MRBS demonstrated during IOT&E is significantly increased if this stoppage is eliminated:
- The XM17 demonstrated 708 MRBS (87 percent probability).
- The XM18 demonstrated 950 MRBS (90 percent probability)."

I've said it before and I'll repeat....I'm done with Sig until Cohen is gone. I hoped the military guns we're going to be a cut above, and this report may well be a hack job, but.....

As Tom_Jones noted, Sig's response to the drop safety issue was quite carefully worded. This report further confirms what I suspected then, that they had known for a while and continued to ship the guns as they were. I cannot support a company with a CEO that does that. Part of this directly relates to the fact that I'm currently "enjoying" one of the king cost cutters destroy the functionality of the department I work in at my place of employment. It's damn demoralizing for me in my professional life, and I'll damn sure not take my money to support it happening a gun maker when there are other options.

For the sake of the troops, I hope the M17/M18 get straightened out. The soldiers need a dependable sidearm. Sig owes it to them to deliver exactly that. And if Sig can't do that, then big Army should take a long serious second look at the G19X and the M9A3.

[El Cid]

Especially since there was the recent converse that occurred, when a flag officer recommended simply doing a COTS for Glock G17/G19...Which I believe is what the USMC did.

Best, Jon

Agreed. I didn't think all USMC was getting Glocks. I thought it was MARSOC. The FBI contract for the 19M/17M allows other agencies to buy from it, including DoD, which I'm betting is how MARSOC did that. I'm just hoping the rest of the Corps, USN, and USAF are free to do that and not required to buy the MHS.

[JSGlock34]

I didn’t get the impression that the MHS program managers were on General Milleys Christmas Card list...

[DAB]

Didn't I read somewhere that during his 8 years in office Obama ran off a lot of the true warriors from the military? Leaving behind political and even perhaps left leaning folks to run things?

If any procurement decision was begging for SECDEF to step in and fix things it's this one.

Anyone know if the other branches are obligated to buy from the Army contract or if they can do their own thing?

i don't know about that, but it wouldn't be hard to round up some experts to get input. Vickers, Langdon, Vogel, Wilson.....wouldn't be hard for General Pistol to think up a dozen or so names that know pistols and the military and ask them "what should i spec out?"

Trump didn't know anything about ice rinks, but he knew who to call to get one built.

but no.....we're the gov't, we know everything..... except they don't.

[Doc_Glock]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you base this statement on Glock's several decades of highly successful field service in demanding combat conditions with the premier US military SOF units, as well Glock's proven track record with numerous LE organizations, not to mention Glock rising to the top of the comprehensive, correctly conducted FBI pistol testing.

This made me smile.

[Alma]

Army responds:
"PEO Soldier agreed and told Military.com that the Army will modify "our marksmanship training to ensure that operators do not unintentionally engage the slide catch lever when firing the MHS," Dawson said."
https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/01/31/army-responds-dod-report-criticizing-new-sidearm-reliability.html

[Bucky]

Army responds:
"PEO Soldier agreed and told Military.com that the Army will modify "our marksmanship training to ensure that operators do not unintentionally engage the slide catch lever when firing the MHS," Dawson said."
https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/01/31/army-responds-dod-report-criticizing-new-sidearm-reliability.html

In othwords, abandon a popular, proven, shooting technique to overcome a manufacture design flaw.

[Alma]

In othwords, abandon a popular, proven, shooting technique to overcome a manufacture design flaw.

Riding your support hand on top of the slide catch is a proven shooting technique? Do tell.

[JHC]

Agreed. I didn't think all USMC was getting Glocks. I thought it was MARSOC. The FBI contract for the 19M/17M allows other agencies to buy from it, including DoD, which I'm betting is how MARSOC did that. I'm just hoping the rest of the Corps, USN, and USAF are free to do that and not required to buy the MHS.

MARSOC plus a small "experiment" or something with a modest quantity provided a unit deploying recently/soon - as reported by 2nd MAR DIV Gunner and covered on another thread a few months back.

[JSGlock34]

MARSOC plus a small "experiment" or something with a modest quantity provided a unit deploying recently/soon - as reported by 2nd MAR DIV Gunner and covered on another thread a few months back.

I don't recall MARSOC purchasing any GEN5s. MARSOC can purchase the G19 GEN3/4 through SOCOM channels (Mk27).

What made the M007 (Marine type classification for 19.5) purchase unusual is that the USMC vice SOCOM was purchasing the Glock GEN5. The M007 was supposedly intended for criminal investigators, HMX-1 pilots and crew members, and a small number for 2nd Marine Division under an Urgent Operational Needs statement.

Marines Are Buying "M007" Glocks For Special Agents And Its Elite Helicopter Unit (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15945/the-marines-are-buying-m007-glocks-for-special-agents-and-helo-crews)

[JHC]

I don't recall MARSOC purchasing any GEN5s. MARSOC can purchase the G19 GEN3/4 through SOCOM channels (Mk27).

What made the M007 (Marine type classification for 19.5) purchase unusual is that the USMC vice SOCOM was purchasing the Glock GEN5. The M007 was supposedly intended for criminal investigators, HMX-1 pilots and crew members, and a small number for 2nd Marine Division under an Urgent Operational Needs statement.

Marines Are Buying "M007" Glocks For Special Agents And Its Elite Helicopter Unit (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15945/the-marines-are-buying-m007-glocks-for-special-agents-and-helo-crews)

I'm sure you're right. I was not precise at all. I just meant G19s. I thought that last one involved "M"'s?

[DallasBronco]

current M9s worn out? get new ones. get the M9A3 even for the same dollar.
Don't forget that at the time the contract was awarded to Sig, Beretta still had outstanding contracts to supply about 58,000 new M9's.

[DallasBronco]

I know it is often said that this is "only a pistol" but in my time in the Army Guard, I was a tanker and we carried pistols constantly when in the field. I can't imagine how awesome it would be to add the intrigue of possibly putting a hole in yourself anytime you jumped into the turret, jumped off the tank, or banged your hip getting out of a hatch, or a myriad of other activities involved in being a tank crewman. Humvee's are also great at grabbing shit attached to your body when entering or exiting. Just something to think about in this discussion.

[Bucky]

Riding your support hand on top of the slide catch is a proven shooting technique? Do tell.

A thumbs forward shooting technique is used by most of the top shooters I am aware of. A good friend of mine is the very first shooter to make Grand Master in USPSA production division. He did so with a Sig P226. His slide never locked back for him. Fortunately, it wasn't as much a detriment as could be in other scenarios.

[Alma]

A thumbs forward shooting technique is used by most of the top shooters I am aware of. A good friend of mine is the very first shooter to make Grand Master in USPSA production division. He did so with a Sig P226. His slide never locked back for him. Fortunately, it wasn't as much a detriment as could be in other scenarios.

I am a USPSA Production Master and when it first started shooting (I shot Glocks at the time) I had this same problem with inadvertently manipulating the slide catch. It's something I had to pay attention to and I was able to correct it. I have never had this issue with any of my P320s since I had already adapted my grip based on my time shooting Glocks.

[Bucky]

I am a USPSA Production Master and when it first started shooting (I shot Glocks at the time) I had this same problem with inadvertently manipulating the slide catch. It's something I had to pay attention to and I was able to correct it. I have never had this issue with any of my P320s since I had already adapted my grip based on my time shooting Glocks.

Did you change your grip? How did you correct it?

[JonInWA]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you base this statement on Glock's several decades of highly successful field service in demanding combat conditions with the premier US military SOF units, as well Glock's proven track record with numerous LE organizations, not to mention Glock rising to the top of the comprehensive, correctly conducted FBI pistol testing.

I saw what you did there, Gary....nicely played. (Hey, umm, yeah. What he said, that's what I meant).

Best, Jon

[MSparks909]

Did you change your grip? How did you correct it?

When I shoot my Sigs and Glocks I use the same grip that Kyle Defoor uses. Places your strong hang thumb on top of your support hand thumb and away from the slide stop/release.

About ~1:50 into this video:

https://youtu.be/wcVHykd3zTU

[Alma]

When I shoot my Sigs and Glocks I use the same grip that Kyle Defoor uses. Places your strong hang thumb on top of your support hand thumb and away from the slide stop/release.

About ~1:50 into this video:

https://youtu.be/wcVHykd3zTU

I do exactly this as well. Side note: I wonder if they could be trying to ride the manual safety...
Old video here
https://youtu.be/QPx7RABkgk4

[HopetonBrown]

Did you change your grip? How did you correct it?I asked Bruce Gray how he was able to transition from 1911s to Sig without fouling the slide stop.

He said he adhered a bb to his support hand with moleskin tape as a reference point for his thumb pad.

[Bucky]

When I shoot my Sigs and Glocks I use the same grip that Kyle Defoor uses. Places your strong hang thumb on top of your support hand thumb and away from the slide stop/release.

About ~1:50 into this video:

https://youtu.be/wcVHykd3zTU

That looks like it would work. For me, with a majority of my shooting being with 1911s, where I ride the safety, I'm used to having my thumb where that is. I have shortish thumbs though, so the only slide stop issues I have are with Sig and my VP9. I did have issue with my P30L, until I put in a P30S slide stop.

[TiroFijo]

Two thumbs forward for me...

[JRB]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you base this statement on Glock's several decades of highly successful field service in demanding combat conditions with the premier US military SOF units, as well Glock's proven track record with numerous LE organizations, not to mention Glock rising to the top of the comprehensive, correctly conducted FBI pistol testing.

The Army is a 'Don't confuse me with the facts, I've made up my mind' sort of organization at its fundamental core. Why start worrying about hard facts and good testing now?

[JHC]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you base this statement on Glock's several decades of highly successful field service in demanding combat conditions with the premier US military SOF units, as well Glock's proven track record with numerous LE organizations, not to mention Glock rising to the top of the comprehensive, correctly conducted FBI pistol testing.

QFT

[Zincwarrior]

And I'm concurrently unclear as to why DoD would not have fulfilled ALL of the testing protocols prior to proceeding to contracting-and then there's the infamous SIG costing formula that DoD fell for, hook, line and sinker...

I do not have a particularly warm and fuzzy feeling regarding the viability of the M17/M18 under hard use or in severe environments. More and more I am suspecting that the Glock would have been a far better selection....

Best, Jon

Test was designed with the eventual winner in mind.

[Zincwarrior]

and they narrowed it to "modular" striker fired. excluding 1911 types and M9 types.

why not ask for a 9mm pistol, capable of shooting ball and JHP ammo, min of 17 round mags, different sized grips, certain accuracy and reliability standards, with options for barrel length. let the market show you what is possible. why narrow your choices so fast? why change at all. current M9s worn out? get new ones. get the M9A3 even for the same dollar.

Because then SIG would not have won.

[gtae07]

I am a USPSA Production Master and when it first started shooting (I shot Glocks at the time) I had this same problem with inadvertently manipulating the slide catch. It's something I had to pay attention to and I was able to correct it. I have never had this issue with any of my P320s since I had already adapted my grip based on my time shooting Glocks.

That's why I sold my LC9s. About every other mag I'd accidentally lock the slide back, so I never felt comfortable carrying it. Got a G43 instead, to compliment my G19.

[JSGlock34]

While I've also learned to offset my thumb slightly to avoid activating the Glock and similarly placed slide stops, I'm not sure that's a grip I want to use on safety equipped pistols. When I shoot 1911s, I ride the thumb safety. I want to be able to ride the thumb safety.

For those who shoot 320s, are any of you shooting manual safety models?

Perhaps the M17/M18 would benefit from a higher angle to the thumb safety lever that would keep the thumb off the slide release. The thumb safety looks very much in-line with the slide release, which to me promotes accidental activation.

23482

Compare that to the Wilson EDC X9 angle. Obviously the X9 benefits from greater distance between the thumb safety and slide release, but it clearly puts the thumb at a higher angle.

23483

[JSGlock34]

Something else that I think bears repeating is that the Army actually dinged Glock for their manual safety. Below text is from the GAO response (https://www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf) to Glock's protest of the award to SIG. Meanwhile, SIG's manual safety design is clearly impacting reliability.

Manual Safety
Glock also alleges that the Army deviated from the solicitation by assigning extra weight to the manual safety in the joint warfighter ergonomics subfactor and the early warfighter acceptance subfactor. Protest at 9. The Army contends that evaluation of the safety was reasonably part of the RFP’s stated evaluation criteria. MOL/COSF at 24-25.

With regard to the joint warfighter ergonomics subfactor, the Army assigned Glock’s proposal a weakness after “[DELETED]” which could result in an “[DELETED].” AR, Tab 3, SSDD, at 14. In addition, during testing under the early warfighter acceptance subfactor, the Glock handgun [DELETED] was “[DELETED].” Id. Offerors were informed that the Army would evaluate the ability of the user to operate the safety as part of the joint warfighter ergonomics subfactor. RFP at 390, ¶ M.3.2.2.4. The solicitation also highlighted that overall safety was a priority, noting that proposals could be disqualified for “safety issues,” as determined by the agency testers. RFP at 6. The [DELETED] on the handgun was reasonably encompassed by the factors disclosed to Glock. MINACT, Inc., supra. Furthermore, [DELETED], we do not think that the Army placed undue emphasis on the safety in the evaluation. This protest ground is denied.

The manual safety issue is tied to Glock's lower score for 'Joint Warfighter Ergonomics' - one of the few technical scores that favored SIG. Also note that SIG was awarded a score of Outstanding for initial reliability.

23485

What a flawed selection.

[RJ]

Something else that I think bears repeating is that the Army actually dinged Glock for their manual safety. Below text is from the GAO response (https://www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf) to Glock's protest of the award to SIG. Meanwhile, SIG's manual safety design is clearly impacting reliability.

Manual Safety
Glock also alleges that the Army deviated from the solicitation by assigning extra weight to the manual safety in the joint warfighter ergonomics subfactor and the early warfighter acceptance subfactor. Protest at 9. The Army contends that evaluation of the safety was reasonably part of the RFP’s stated evaluation criteria. MOL/COSF at 24-25.

With regard to the joint warfighter ergonomics subfactor, the Army assigned Glock’s proposal a weakness after “[DELETED]” which could result in an “[DELETED].” AR, Tab 3, SSDD, at 14. In addition, during testing under the early warfighter acceptance subfactor, the Glock handgun [DELETED] was “[DELETED].” Id. Offerors were informed that the Army would evaluate the ability of the user to operate the safety as part of the joint warfighter ergonomics subfactor. RFP at 390, ¶ M.3.2.2.4. The solicitation also highlighted that overall safety was a priority, noting that proposals could be disqualified for “safety issues,” as determined by the agency testers. RFP at 6. The [DELETED] on the handgun was reasonably encompassed by the factors disclosed to Glock. MINACT, Inc., supra. Furthermore, [DELETED], we do not think that the Army placed undue emphasis on the safety in the evaluation. This protest ground is denied.

The manual safety issue is tied to Glock's lower score for 'Joint Warfighter Ergonomics' - one of the few technical scores that favored SIG. Also note that SIG was awarded a score of Outstanding for initial reliability.

23485

What a flawed selection.

Eh, I dunno. Seems to me Factor 7 might be only one line, but it is the bottom one, imho.

I was on several programs where we were beat, substantially, on price, even when we objectively demonstrated a superior solution.

In my career, the concept of ‘best value’ had limited application; the price was always the deciding factor, in most cases.

To the bean counters, it is a Pistol, Brown, 9mm, Qty 400,000 proposition.

Sig appears to be taking the tried and true “Bid it low and ECP the hell out of it” approach. What pisses me off is that out soldiers are going to be the ones who have to deal with any teething problems before they work the bugs out. Ultimately this may result in the through life cost of the Sig offering exceeding that of Glock’s. We’ll see.

From my experience In large programs once they are won companies spend a huge amount of marketing keeping them sold in the halls of Crystal City and the Pentagon. It is very very hard to stop unless the solution is a complete fuck up, and the program is cancelled. I don’t see that here. Sig probably thinks they just have to work out a couple (no cost) ECPs to the design, and Bingo! our military will love it.

FWIW, I’m no military guy but I never understood why the M9A3 was not considered viable.

[JSGlock34]

In my opinion the selection was flawed because the testing was never completed.

[RJ]

In my opinion the selection was flawed because the testing was never completed.

Non snarky question: Was not Glock or any of the other offerers tested to the same degree as Sig, in the same timeframe?

I’m not very familiar with the details of the selection process obviously. I’m asking if, when DoD choose the winner, whether they did it based on completing the evaluations to the same standard across each of the bids. It would surprise me greatly if this was not done, as it would be a very straightforward protest to win (I.e. a non uniform evaluation would not result in a level playing field.)

[psalms144.1]

Eh, I dunno. Seems to me Factor 7 might be only one line, but it is the bottom one, imho.

I was on several programs where we were beat, substantially, on price, even when we objectively demonstrated a superior solution.

In my career, the concept of ‘best value’ had limited application; the price was always the deciding factor, in most cases.

To the bean counters, it is a Pistol, Brown, 9mm, Qty 400,000 proposition.Agreed, if that price is an actual price. Rumor has it that after the contract was awarded, Sig might have notified the Army that the price for the "pistol" is ONLY for the FCU. If they want a grip module, barrel, slide, etc, they had to pay extra. Just a rumor, but wouldn't be the slimiest thing I've seen done in contracting by a long shot...

[JSGlock34]

Non snarky question: Was not Glock or any of the other offerers tested to the same degree as Sig, in the same timeframe?

I’m not very familiar with the details of the selection process obviously. I’m asking if, when DoD choose the winner, whether they did it based on completing the evaluations to the same standard across each of the bids. It would surprise me greatly if this was not done, as it would be a very straightforward protest to win (I.e. a non uniform evaluation would not result in a level playing field.)

I'd say GAO agrees with you.

In my mind the selection is flawed because the Army made the selection prior to conducting the most comprehensive tests. For example, the XM18 model only had 1,500 rounds fired through it during the Phase One selection process. Maybe had they fired it some more they would have discovered that with ball ammo the XM18 performs well below the required Mean Rounds Between Stoppages (the XM18 demonstrated 197 MRBS with ball ammunition, far from the 2,000 MRBS standard). The Army claimed that "overall safety" was a priority, but didn't drop test the gun until after the selection was awarded. To your point, it looks like they compared the price tags and decided to call the competition.

The FBI testing was far more comprehensive before they made a selection. Perhaps that's why they came to a different conclusion despite comparing submissions from the same two manufacturers?

[Trooper224]

FWIW, I’m no military guy but I never understood why the M9A3 was not considered viable.

I'm sure there are those in the inner circle who are asking the same thing. I wonder how long it will be before troops start complaining about the new POS and about how great the ol' M9 was. In my day few loved the 1911, but as soon as it was replaced by the Beretta many started wanting it back, most of whom had never used a pistol.

[MAP]

A good analysis from Soldier Systems on this issue:

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/02/02/modular-handgun-system-things-arent-as-bad-as-the-dote-report-implies/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

[Alma]

A good analysis from Soldier Systems on this issue:

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/02/02/modular-handgun-system-things-arent-as-bad-as-the-dote-report-implies/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Thanks. I just came here to post this.
It looks like a good bit of work wend into the researching and putting into perspective the issues.

[Trukinjp13]

I just read through that. My take. Sig had plenty of time to bring a gun to the table that was ready to go. Also if the testing had been completed appropriately. Some of these issues may have been fixed before pistols were delivered. It is clear the army wanted to save money. So they took the low bid, but it is sad. The FBI testing was thorough and complete. They came away with the winner.


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