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JV_
01-24-2012, 07:43 AM
What causes a trigger finger stutter? (a break in the shot rhythm)

An example would be: A Bill Drill where your 4th split is .40s rather than .20s.

What are the possible causes?
-Too much tension in the trigger hand?
-Just a momentary disconnect between the brain and finger?

JodyH
01-24-2012, 07:53 AM
Brain fart.
Happens to me occasionally when I really try and push my speed.
Seemed to happen more when I was really concentrating on releasing the trigger just to reset with Glocks, happens less with the LEM trigger.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

JV_
01-24-2012, 08:07 AM
Matt Burkett's take:

http://www.mattburkett.com/tip-for-recoil-control/

The weak hand needs to be an integral part of the two handed grip. For me that is where most of the recoil control happens. Trigger control occurs with my strong hand. Most shooters try to do too much with their strong side of their body. This is a natural thing that we need to overcome for really fast shooting. Fast shooting doesn’t happen when the strong side is tensed up. This is when you will see shooters have trigger freezes, and horrible follow up shots.

JodyH
01-24-2012, 08:48 AM
Sounds plausible, probably really bearing down on the grip when trying to push the speed.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

MEH
01-24-2012, 09:14 AM
I like where Matt says "Make sure your relaxed and in a positive position. Tension kills fast shooting." [Emphasis mine.] If you see my toes wiggling on the line you'll know what I'm doing. ;)

JV_
01-24-2012, 09:23 AM
Overall, I found his article pretty interesting. I'm going to spend my next range session experimenting with some of his ideas.

DonovanM
01-24-2012, 12:55 PM
The only times I've ever experienced trigger freeze, which has been quite a few in USPSA matches, it was invariably a product of pushing too hard to go fast.

Relax, see what you need to see, let your body do the rest.

Marty Hayes
01-26-2012, 11:06 PM
Matt Burkett's take:

http://www.mattburkett.com/tip-for-recoil-control/

Horse pucky. One can shoot just as fast with only one hand holding the gun as two.

vcdgrips
01-27-2012, 11:07 AM
Perhaps some people, particularly if they are strong and have large hands can shoot as fast one handed as two on a particular gun. However, those physical blessings are not bestowed upon every shooter.

YMMV Greatly,

david barnes

jetfire
01-27-2012, 11:33 AM
I can yank a trigger just as fast with my strong hand only as I can with two hands on the gun - but I certainly can't get hits just as fast.

Prdator
01-27-2012, 01:10 PM
I can yank a trigger just as fast with my strong on only as I can with two hands on the gun - but I certainly can't get hits just as fast.

Neither can I !!!!!!

DonovanM
01-27-2012, 03:56 PM
Horse pucky. One can shoot just as fast with only one hand holding the gun as two.

I don't get it. Are you joking...?

jetfire
01-27-2012, 04:54 PM
Shoot != hit.

Marty Hayes
01-27-2012, 05:06 PM
I don't get it. Are you joking...?

Not at all. Here is the quote I called Horse Puckey on.

"The weak hand needs to be an integral part of the two handed grip. For me that is where most of the recoil control happens. Trigger control occurs with my strong hand. Most shooters try to do too much with their strong side of their body. This is a natural thing that we need to overcome for really fast shooting. Fast shooting doesn’t happen when the strong side is tensed up. This is when you will see shooters have trigger freezes, and horrible follow up shots. "

Burkett says that a strong weak hand grip allows faster manipulation of the trigger finger, and says that when the strong side is tensed up, you will see trigger freezes. My point is that if one can shoot as quickly one handed as two, (as Caleb states) then it isn't a product of the weak hand at all, since there is no weak hand on the gun.

And, as Caleb also pointed out, one will not be as accurate, but that is not the issue here.

agent-smith
01-27-2012, 06:29 PM
And, as Caleb also pointed out, one will not be as accurate, but that is not the issue here.

While I'm admittedly one of the least experienced pistol shooters on the forum, I think the issue is entirely being able to shoot as fast as possible accurately.

Personally, I really think having to specify that you can shoot "as fast" with one hand if you entirely disregard hitting the target is getting a bit pedantic.

Just my $0.02 worth.

jetfire
01-27-2012, 06:33 PM
I agree with this statement 100% - I can shoot much faster accurately with two hands on the gun, and relaxing my strong hand also helps eliminate trigger stutter. Here's the example I use in classes:

Make a fist as tight as you can with all your fingers except your index (trigger) finger. Now try and wiggle your index finger as fast as you can without relaxing your hand. Now relax your hand and wiggle your index finger. It moves faster with your hand relaxed than it does with it all tensed up.

agent-smith
01-27-2012, 06:37 PM
I agree with this statement 100% - I can shoot much faster accurately with two hands on the gun, and relaxing my strong hand also helps eliminate trigger stutter. Here's the example I use in classes:

Make a fist as tight as you can with all your fingers except your index (trigger) finger. Now try and wiggle your index finger as fast as you can without relaxing your hand. Now relax your hand and wiggle your index finger. It moves faster with your hand relaxed than it does with it all tensed up.

Exactly.

Marty Hayes
01-27-2012, 07:32 PM
What causes a trigger finger stutter? (a break in the shot rhythm)

An example would be: A Bill Drill where your 4th split is .40s rather than .20s.

What are the possible causes?
-Too much tension in the trigger hand?
-Just a momentary disconnect between the brain and finger?

Boys, the question was about what caused trigger finger stutter, not how to shoot accurately and quickly.

My belief is that nothing having to do with the weak hand is related to trigger finger stutter.

Marty Hayes
01-27-2012, 07:36 PM
I agree with this statement 100% - I can shoot much faster accurately with two hands on the gun, and relaxing my strong hand also helps eliminate trigger stutter. Here's the example I use in classes:

Make a fist as tight as you can with all your fingers except your index (trigger) finger. Now try and wiggle your index finger as fast as you can without relaxing your hand. Now relax your hand and wiggle your index finger. It moves faster with your hand relaxed than it does with it all tensed up.

Okay, that is your experience. Fine. At the next IDPA match at FAS we will test it, with shooters firing a Bill drill at 3 yards two handed, and then one handed. We will see if the times are appreciably different. I expect not.

agent-smith
01-27-2012, 07:57 PM
Okay, that is your experience. Fine. At the next IDPA match at FAS we will test it, with shooters firing a Bill drill at 3 yards two handed, and then one handed. We will see if the times are appreciably different. I expect not.

At 3yds, perhaps not. At 7yds I think there would be a substantial difference...unless the shooters are just really, really slow when firing two-handed.

jetfire
01-27-2012, 08:01 PM
Pretty much, at 3 yards that pretty much removes the "accuracy" component from the equation. Which, if you're trying to cook the test to produce the result you want is exactly what I'd do. A much better example would be to try it at 3, 5, 7, and 10 yards, comparing both time AND points down for each string.

DonovanM
01-27-2012, 08:55 PM
Personally, I really think having to specify that you can shoot "as fast" with one hand if you entirely disregard hitting the target is getting a bit pedantic.

LOL. A bit? That was weapons-grade, lawyer quality pedantry at work.


My belief is that nothing having to do with the weak hand is related to trigger finger stutter.

Burkett is saying that the shooter who is having trigger freeze issues is probably gripping too hard with his strong hand. To maintain the same amount of total grip tension as before, he's advocating a stronger grip with the weak hand to allow the shooter to take away tension in the strong hand. My personal experience echoes this, as I experienced several cases of trigger freeze before I rebuilt my grip. Now I try to to break my grip panels with my weak hand and my strong hand is stuck in a very firm handshake. Works great, when I'm seeing properly I can call shots at warp speed (.16-.17 splits) - something I'd never be able to do one handed.

Here's my prediction: If they're good enough and push for speed, a number of shooters will experience trigger freeze trying to shoot a 3 yard Bill Drill single handed. Probably even on both strings.

Marty Hayes
01-27-2012, 08:59 PM
Pretty much, at 3 yards that pretty much removes the "accuracy" component from the equation. Which, if you're trying to cook the test to produce the result you want is exactly what I'd do. A much better example would be to try it at 3, 5, 7, and 10 yards, comparing both time AND points down for each string.

Explain for me why distance from a target effects trigger finger stutter?

Odin Bravo One
01-27-2012, 09:28 PM
What causes a trigger finger stutter? (a break in the shot rhythm)

An example would be: A Bill Drill where your 4th split is .40s rather than .20s.

What are the possible causes?
-Too much tension in the trigger hand?
-Just a momentary disconnect between the brain and finger?

Our OP specifically questions whether this is a physical phenomenon, or if perhaps there was a mental, or psychological disturbance causing the "break in shot rhythm".

Seems to me we are getting very caught up in simply the physical manipulation of a lever without any consideration for accuracy. Having shot with the OP, and knowing the majority of this forum are concerned not only making noise, but actually hitting their intended target area/zone, discarding the desire for accurate shot placement as a very likely contributing factor does not provide the same feedback as if we take that aspect into account.

Can I physically manipulate the lever as fast with one hand as with two? Yes I can.

Can I hit my intended target as fast with one hand as fast as I can with two? At 3 yards, yes I can.

And probably at 5 yards.

And probably without sights installed.

And probably at 7 or even 10 yards, if the impact area is large enough.

But what about a low probability target?

When accuracy is thrown out the window, such as mashing the trigger as fast as I physically can without concern about accuracy, or without concerning myself with a hostage rescue shot, having a support hand is irrelevant. When shooting at a target that is less than 6' away, (which is closer to the actual distance when at the 3 yard line once the gun is pointed down range) is not much of a test of speed AND accuracy.

But if my goal is to manipulate the trigger quickly, and produce accurate hits downrange beyond bad breath range, I will produce a much higher level of speed and accuracy using two hands.

I certainly wasn't around when Cooper and the old Leather Slap crowd were throwing lead at Big Bear, but it seems to me that if these guys, who were trained in, and used the one handed pistol technique in combat found it lacking.......thus leading to the development of two handed shooting, and ultimately the current manifestations and variations of the "Modern Technique", they felt it was more efficient and effective than one handed shooting. Apparently, so does the majority of the modern shooting world.

If the support hand does nothing to improve my ability to put fast, accurate, and effective rounds on target.........why would I bother to ever use it?

Fact is, there are numerous reasons there could have been a time difference in the string of fire. Could be physical. Could be a true issue with the trigger finger "stuttering". Could have been too much tension in the shooting hand. But it could also have been psychological or mental. Could have been due to lack of sight picture. Failure to reset the trigger properly. Disconnect between brain and finger. The possibilities are nearly endless.

To address the concerns of the OP, if it was a one time event..........I wouldn't over-analyze it. If it continues to plague you, then have one of your shooting buddies take video AND standby to critique your string of fire. This is an issue that is not likely to be effectively addressed over the internet.

DonovanM
01-27-2012, 09:30 PM
Explain for me why distance from a target effects trigger finger stutter?

The only times I've experienced trigger freeze were when the targets were close up (like inside 7 yards or so) and I was really pushing for speed, which at those distances involves pretty much trying to row the trigger as fast as possible. Couple that with too much tension in the strong hand and it's a recipe IME.

agent-smith
01-27-2012, 09:47 PM
This is an issue that is not likely to be effectively addressed over the internet.

I'm beginning to question whether ANY issues can be effectively addressed over "the internet."

:)

(As always, great post/info Sean M)

HeadHunter
01-27-2012, 10:47 PM
Those of you who attend the private Rogers class will have the opportunity to explore this in much more depth, both two handed and one handed. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWUcDHI_b34

GJM
01-27-2012, 11:12 PM
By chance, my wife and I were watching the Bill Rogers Panteao video tonight, and it looks like Bill has quite a bit of finger in the trigger guard of both the M&P and revolver. I have been trying to use less finger, after following Surf's thread on manipulating a Glock trigger, but more obviously works for Bill.

Is there a consensus on best practice and might this relate to trigger freeze?

beltjones
01-28-2012, 12:40 AM
By chance, my wife and I were watching the Bill Rogers Panteao video tonight, and it looks like Bill has quite a bit of finger in the trigger guard of both the M&P and revolver. I have been trying to use less finger, after following Surf's thread on manipulating a Glock trigger, but more obviously works for Bill.

Is there a consensus on best practice and might this relate to trigger freeze?

Everyone's hands are shaped differently. What works for Rogers to be able to pull the trigger straight back may not work for you. Placing your finger on the trigger exactly like Rogers does hoping it makes you shoot better is a little like wearing Shaq's shoes hoping it makes you a better basketball player. Just like with the shoes a proper fit is pretty important, so place your finger where it fits you best (hint: get with an instructor who can help you determine a proper "fit" of your finger to the trigger).

GJM
01-28-2012, 01:08 AM
Having been thru RSS twice in the last year, I have had pretty good luck mimicking most of what Bill does. Since he appears to be using more finger in the trigger guard than I am, I was curious whether I was missing something. I have been contacting the trigger so that I press straight back, and have a relaxed second joint. Within that range, which is from the middle of the first pad to almost the crease, I have some available range that feels good, allowing me to press straight back and gives me a relaxed second joint. I would be interested in the theory of more or less finger, within one's "good" range. Interestingly, when I pop the GFA back on, it seems to force me to use less finger and feels less satisfactory. I assume, but have never discussed, that finger placement is the same for freestyle as one hand shooting?

JAD
01-28-2012, 07:07 AM
This is an interesting thread drift (and I'm sorry for helping it drift). I have been taught (crews, Furr) to use a lot more finger WHO. I have found that it helps to use a little more finger SHO. So I have three finger positions: center of the pad for freestyle, lower third of the pad for SHO, and crease bumping the left edge of the trigger for WHO. Am I doing it wrongly?

JV_
01-28-2012, 07:32 AM
Please keep this on topic. Unless the trigger finger placement discussion relates to stutter, feel free start a new thread.

JV_
01-28-2012, 07:48 AM
Seems to me we are getting very caught up in simply the physical manipulation of a lever without any consideration for accuracy. Having shot with the OP, and knowing the majority of this forum are concerned not only making noise, but actually hitting their intended target area/zone, discarding the desire for accurate shot placement as a very likely contributing factor does not provide the same feedback as if we take that aspect into account.Great post Sean - well said.



To address the concerns of the OP, if it was a one time event..........I wouldn't over-analyze it. If it continues to plague you, then have one of your shooting buddies take video AND standby to critique your string of fire. This is an issue that is not likely to be effectively addressed over the internet.I don't think it's a regular problem, it happens most often when I'm really trying to push the speed past my comfort zone, similar to what DonovanM experiences. Going back and trying to work on my WHO/SHO grip to stop sending shots left and right is what started my research in to forming a "perfect grip".

You may be right, this could be over analysis.

GJM
01-28-2012, 08:38 AM
Please keep this on topic. Unless the trigger finger placement discussion relates to stutter, feel free start a new thread.

That is precisely my question? How does trigger finger placement relate to the manipulation of the trigger, with the continuum going from very fast to stutter? If the stutter is the result of a momentary mental anomaly, then trigger placement and technique are unrelated. If the stutter is a result of the mechanics of the grip and finger placement, then this is completely related. If the stutter is shooting with one hand hand, trigger placement may especially be related. Bill Rogers just told me that he sees differences in his performance with such small variations as a medium versus large backstrap on the M&P, or a gen 3 versus 4 Glock, and it relates to trigger reach and how relaxed the second joint of his trigger finger is. When I have experienced trigger stutter, I believe it is mechanical not mental.

If you want to split this into a new thread, that would be fine, but I think it is interrelated to stutter.

JV_
01-28-2012, 10:11 AM
If you want to split this into a new thread, that would be fine, but I think it is interrelated to stutter.I'm OK with the discussion of finger placement as it relates to stutter, but if it's about finger placement for general shooting - that's something for another thread.

lcarr
01-28-2012, 10:37 AM
How does trigger finger placement relate to the manipulation of the trigger, with the continuum going from very fast to stutter? If the stutter is the result of a momentary mental anomaly, then trigger placement and technique are unrelated. If the stutter is a result of the mechanics of the grip and finger placement, then this is completely related.

Do we all agree that this "stutter" is the same thing as "trigger freeze," i.e., not releasing the trigger to the reset point? If so, I have never noticed a direct relationship to finger placement, but there is another important observation. Someone in this thread said that they get trigger freeze when working on releasing the trigger to the reset point, but releasing it no farther.

I teach new shooters about the reset point, to teach them about the qualities of the trigger and to get them to focus on follow through, but this is not the way to shoot quickly with consistency.

If one watches Rob Leatham shoot quickly, one will see his finger come completely off the trigger, contradicting what we all learned about the reset point, yet he still presses the trigger straight back. After I learned this, I noticed I did the same thing when going really fast. (I'm certainly no Rob Leatham, but I can do 0.14-0.16 on demand, and have gotten down to 0.11--in a match. :^)

I would advise someone wanting to go fast to forget completely about the reset point and to focus on pressing the trigger straight back as the sights enter the desired target area. They will likely notice that their finger comes more forward than it needs to come to reset the trigger, but the trigger will never freeze and they will still be shooting as fast as their skill will allow. One should coach oneself with "Get back on the trigger!!!" not "Release the trigger to it's reset point, but no farther [yawn]."

Lincoln

YVK
01-28-2012, 10:48 AM
it happens most often when I'm really trying to push the speed past my comfort zone, similar to what DonovanM experiences.

Same here, and it happens to me a lot more often with 1911 than any other pistols, although does also happen with P30 more often than I'd like to.

In case of 1911, I believe the reason is that I feel that I need to grip it stronger to control 45ACP, which leads to excessive tension in strong hand. There maybe something else to 1911 trigger that makes me shortstroke it, but I can't quite pinpoint this.

P30 is a different story, but the endpoint is that I try to go too fast.

JodyH
01-28-2012, 11:28 AM
My trigger stutter is more of a complete freeze up when it happens.
As in I don't even start to release the trigger, my finger just freezes and doesn't start the reset process.
It only happens when I'm consciously working at manipulating the trigger as fast as possible.
What I think is happening is my mind is working through the "steps" faster than my finger can keep up.
Basically my mind, the gun and my finger get out of sync and I get a hiccup.
It usually manifests itself when I'm running a LEM trigger into the .15-.19 splits or a Glock in the <.17 split range.
I'll get a .17, .17, .16, .29, .17, .18, while it's not a huge stutter it is very noticeable to me when it happens.
I never get a stutter/freeze when the fast splits come naturally (ex. "Triple Nickle") but will occasionally get them on something like my third or fourth "Bill Drill".

GJM
01-28-2012, 08:52 PM
Wow, Jody. .15 with a LEM is warp speed.

I also think trigger and pistol design plays a big part, as I have to work a lot harder to shoot a Glock faster than a M&P.

Lomshek
01-28-2012, 09:40 PM
My trigger stutter is more of a complete freeze up when it happens.
As in I don't even start to release the trigger, my finger just freezes and doesn't start the reset process.
It only happens when I'm consciously working at manipulating the trigger as fast as possible.
What I think is happening is my mind is working through the "steps" faster than my finger can keep up.
Basically my mind, the gun and my finger get out of sync and I get a hiccup.
It usually manifests itself when I'm running a LEM trigger ...

My stutters will usually happen when trying to go warp speed (for me) with a DA/SA gun that has a long reset. My impression is that I'm trying to shoot way beyond my competent speed zone (.15 & less splits vs .20-.25 splits at 10 - 15 yards for instance) and only release the trigger half of what I should. It's definitely not that I just barely miss the reset.

For me this only happens when firing two handed because I'm much more deliberate (and slow) firing SHO or WHO.

JodyH
01-28-2012, 09:40 PM
When I dip down into the teens is where I start freezing, the fastest splits I see in drills is usually around .21 with a LEM.
My fastest splits ever were with a Walther P99, I could maintain .11-.16 splits on a IDPA -0 at 7 yards for 6 rounds.

SLG
01-28-2012, 11:55 PM
IME, "trigger freeze" comes from trying too hard. You might call it mental tension, rather than strong hand tension, though that is an issue as well.

You can pretty handily replicate the problem by taking a stop watch and trying to start and stop it as fast as possible, over and over. Also IME, the shorter the trigger travel, the more likely it is to occur (like the stop watch button, which barely moves), though ymmv.

FWIW, I too let my finger come completely off the trigger during reset. As Rob points out, in shooting fast, accurate splits, the issue is not how far your finger moves, but how fast and how precisely it moves. I shoot a DA revolver pretty much exactly as fast as I shoot a 1911, recoil being equal.

Surf
01-29-2012, 12:11 AM
A few things I will note for myself and my experiences.

- With my preferred pull type on most pistols, I run a trigger physically faster with 2 hands on the weapon. I can be just shooting a berm for pure speed but I can run most pistols faster with 2 hands (again accuracy aside). However this can also be pistol, but mostly trigger type and trigger pull type dependent. Now a 1911 with a very slick trigger and I might not see much of a difference and I would be using a "flip and press" type of pull along the lines of what most competition 1911 shooters might use ala Mr. Leathams described pull type, but I would still argue that I could run that pistol faster with 2 hands as my trigger finger in my pull type is much more free to run quickly as my primary hand has less tension. On my preferred pull type less tension in the primary hand increases finger speeds. Again this is not my only trigger pull type and I could vary pull types midway through a drill, just depending on what I am doing.

- My "hook and curl" type of finger placement has more of a "tactile feel" on the trigger and is enhanced by having less tension in the primary shooting hand then the technique of having more trigger finger. IMO, this type of pull also lends to better accuracy, but that again is my preference. This I believe is along the lines of what Matt Burkett speaks to in regards to creating too much tension and trigger freeze / stutter.

- I note that contributing factors to stutter / freeze may be related but not limited to;
- Physical disabilities especially in the hand (ie arthritis, broken knuckles healed poorly etc, etc)
- Age
- Shooting various trigger types often and perhaps back to back
- Trigger finger placement / type of trigger pull, which may or may not require as much attention to other details such as support hand grip pressures etc, etc..
- Brain fart
- Fatigue


By chance, my wife and I were watching the Bill Rogers Panteao video tonight, and it looks like Bill has quite a bit of finger in the trigger guard of both the M&P and revolver. I have been trying to use less finger, after following Surf's thread on manipulating a Glock trigger, but more obviously works for Bill.

Is there a consensus on best practice and might this relate to trigger freeze?Let me again say there are a few pull types that I use. I will also say that the standard revolver (non competition) generally involves much more trigger finger to get a good pull due to weight and travel. Even on a revolver I am still in or near the first joint of my trigger finger as the pull is heavier in DA. I have added the "hook and curl" after many years of training especially involving long range or precision shooting and adapting a pull type from a rifle to a pistol. I will note that I am in my mid 40's and carried a revolver full time for the first 4 years of my career. I will also add that many fellas like myself, who were trained heavily on revolvers and maybe taught revolvers, may have a universal trigger pull type of more finger which is more related to the revolver and not so much an adaptation of the "flip and press" that the 1911 guys often adopt. So in other words some guys who learned and taught pistol for so many years might have a grip, or trigger pull type that was a direct relation to the revolver and it may not have changed. I am not saying this in particular to Bill Rogers but it is definitely not uncommon to see this, especially in the LE based world of old school trainers. I will also add that the more trigger finger can work very well as I describe in that trigger video I did so I am not saying that there is a need to change, but for some people it can be a big advantage. It was for myself and is often the same for many who come through my courses. Again what works for me may not work for everyone and vise versa. :)

DonovanM
01-30-2012, 01:18 AM
Trigger froze again today. It was on the 5th shot on a wide open target like 6 feet away, so warp speed.

JV_
01-30-2012, 03:22 PM
Thanks guys, I have a lot to think about and work on. This has been very helpful.