Support Hand Still Slipping Forward

[randyflycaster]

I tried using the Bob Vogel "torque" grip today, but my support hand still keeps slipping forward, making it impossible for me to keep grip pressure on the gun. I don't know why this keeps happening. I'm wondering if my hands are too small for my guns, a CZ 85 and a Glock 19. I put rubber grips on both guns, but it hasn't stopped the hand slipping.

Also, I try to use my strong hand fingertips as a wall - like Shannon Smith - that I push against with my support hand. Today I tried pushing with less pressure, but it didn't solve my problem.

Any thoughts?

Randy

[GJM]

Try a conventional grip.

[JohnO]

my support hand still keeps slipping forward, making it impossible for me to keep grip pressure on the gun. I don't know why this keeps happening. I'm wondering if my hands are too small for my guns, a CZ 85 and a Glock 19. I put rubber grips on both guns, but it hasn't stopped the hand slipping.

Any thoughts?



Believe it or not your logic on gun size is actually the opposite of reality. The larger the grip area the less your strong hand will wrap around leaving more area for your support hand to contact. I'm not suggesting you go out and purchase a bigger gun, just pointing out fact. I can get more support hand meat on my Glock 21 than I can get on a G17. There just is more open grip area.

The support hand does not contact as much grip area as the strong hand. Therefore grip enhancements have limited value for the support hand. Now look and see what the support hand primarily contacts. Yup your strong hand. So you are looking at increasing the coefficient of friction between your strong hand and your support hand while in a firing grip. Either more pressure (tighter grip) or some form of stickum.

Is the climate dry where you live? Heck you should just experiment by wetting your hands and see how that effects your grip.

I know people don't walk around with stickum applied to the back side of their support hand and the palm side of their support hand (the practicality of having this available outside of a dedicated range session - real life.) However for the purpose of learning what is happening or how you can potentially improve your problem some experimenting may prove to be enlightening.

[Jared]

Try a conventional grip.

Op, do this. Vogel's grip is pretty unconventional, and when I tried it myself I got less control than I got with a more conventional modern isosceles type arm/hand position.

[GJM]

The Vogel grip works great if two conditions are met:

1) you are shooting a Glock 34

2) you are as strong as Robert Vogel

This became quickly apparent to me when shooting a Glock 22 with his grip.

[Jared]

The Vogel grip works great if two conditions are met:

1) you are shooting a Glock 34

2) you are as strong as Robert Vogel

This became quickly apparent to me when shooting a Glock 22 with his grip.

I don't know how strong Vogel's grip is exactly, but I do know that when I tried his grip I could close a CoC #2 multiple times with either hand, so I wasn't a weakling and I still couldn't make it work all that well for me. It didn't suck, per se, but I did notice more flip, less predictable sight tracking and return, and a tendency for my support hand to slip. This was with a Glock and multiple 92 pistols.

[nightstalker865]

Take a look at Landgon’s grip instruction. I think he does an exceptional job at explaining the technique and making it easily repeatable for the shooter.

Grip info starts at the 6min mark. Well worth a few mins of your time.

https://youtu.be/5VP4X6FVa4E


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[David S.]

I’ve fought the same issue for years. The internet told me to fix the problem by squeezing harder and exaggerating the thumbs-forward grip more. Neither worked for me. Recently, I took a class with Tom Givens, who recommends a thumbs high grip for most people. Unpossible, I says to myself. That’s not how the HSLD dudes do it.... but, then again, you’re here to learn his way.

I’ve been shooting thumbs forward for too long, so I can’t seem to get myself to shoot thumbs high. Relaxing my support wrist from “locked out” forward to a more neutral, vertical position seems to be working well, so far.

ETA. Ernest’s video above is exactly the kind of technique I was referring to above. I’m not saying he’s wrong. I’m not questioning his expertise. He’s vastly more qualified than I am on the topic. That said, the “support hand as high as possible without impeding the function of the gun...and wrist pre-loaded” advice hasn’t worked well for me where I’m at.

[Caesar]

Check out Mike Seeklander’s Instagram. About 35 or so down from the most recent post, he has some good instructional videos on pistol grip.

I struggled with my support hand breaking from the grip. As he suggested in one of his videos, too much downward angle on the support hand can lead to this problem. I reduced the angle some and made sure to build pressure behind the gun by canting my palms into the gun. Worked for me.

[spinmove_]

I’ve found, through lots of personal experimentation, that it somewhat boils down to physiology AND the chosen firearm. You tried something different, which is great and awesome. But you discovered that it doesn’t quite work for you, which is perfectly ok. Now you have to try something different, work with it for a bit, and see if that works for you. If it doesn’t, rinse and repeat. Just keep in mind that if you also change the type of gun, your grip might very well be different. The grip I use on a Glock is different from what I use on a SIG, which is different yet from what I use on a revolver.

Don’t give up. Just keep trying. You’ll get it.


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[randyflycaster]

Thanks so much for all your replies.

Not sure what thumbs-up grip is.

I will try Ernest's idea of using slight backward pressure with my support hand. The forward pressure I was using was forcing my hand to slip.

Randy

[SouthNarc]

I found Ernest's remarks about the support hand pre-load in a Weaver stance at 12:00 rather interesting.

[blues]

I found Ernest's remarks about the support hand pre-load in a Weaver stance at 12:00 rather interesting.

I caught that as well. I've always just kind of thought of it as isometric tension, with the strong and support hands and arms providing a counterbalancing force.

There is so much nuance in the various techniques offered by many highly respected trainers. Ultimately I think we just have to find the one that both works and feels most comfortable for our particular body structure...and...is repeatable under stress.

[ER_STL]

As someone who has obsessed over grip technique for a decade, I can somewhat empathize. Here have been my observations:

The modern thumbs forward grip – in all of its variations – relies mostly on friction between the support hand and the gun and strong hand in order to be effective, barring a strong push/pull between the two hands. With this technique, it’s tough to overstate the fact that hand-size and fit to the gun have a large effect on how effective the technique will be. Shooters with fat, fleshy hands have little trouble mashing a lot of hand against the gun and rarely understand the trouble that those of us with bony hands have. There’s simply not a lot of meat available on the hand and thus there’s not a lot of surface area to press against the gun in order to supply enough friction to keep the hands together. Despite having a strong grip, this is a problem I have, and this is where I have to either adjust my grip technique to accommodate a gun OR use a platform with a fatter grip, whereby I have more grip surface available.

The concepts of back-pressure, inward pressure, inward torque ala Vogel, etc all incorporate muscles other than those immediately responsible for gripping to increase the pressure the hands apply to the gun, thereby increasing the amount of friction. If you’re able to get enough support hand on the gun these are very effective techniques.

Speaking of Vogel’s grip, it’s a concept that I’ve used quite a bit, combined with Ayoob’s wedge-grip. My grip for the longest time looked like this:

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa140/ER_STL/89511636-e833-4290-9361-65d4b197b5f7_zps64139858.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa140/ER_STL/9676ccef-a424-4bc8-a35c-6c389d95394b_zpsb85f1cf4.jpg

With this technique, the index finger of my support hand was able to lock onto the trigger guard in order to really torque hard into the gun. Both my strong and support hands torque in – ala Vogel – and the higher grip offered by the wedge technique meant that my support hand had plenty of available space against which to press. Using a very strong grip, the gun was locked into place and shot very flat. The key again was a strong grip, as inadequate grip resulted in slippage, similar to what you’re probably experiencing.

Unfortunately though, overtraining this grip has led to some serious tendonitis (golfer’s elbow) in my support forearm and that has forced me to use a more traditional grip again. It’s a little tougher to explain how I approach it now but the core concepts are the same – I apply my support hand higher on the frame where there’s more available space (I almost pinch the slide…I’m that high up) and I still require a small amount of inward torque to increase friction. Finally, I’ve given in to grip-tape, which for the longest time I avoided. Just a small amount up high on the support side makes all the difference in the world.

PM if you’d like to discuss directly…

[randyflycaster]

Are you locking your elbows?

Randy

[David S.]

Not sure what thumbs-up grip is.

21955

[ER_STL]

Are you locking your elbows?

Randy

Nope. In order to achieve an inward torque the elbows come up and out but they're not locked. I extend to the natural point where any further would result in the hands actually starting to come apart rather than maintaining inward pressure.

[txdpd]

Your support hand isn't slipping forward. It's staying in place and your firing hand is moving away with recoil. If you're trying to stop your hand from slipping forward you'll never find a solution, because that's not what's happening.

You can't out muscle recoil. You probably need to loosen up a little bit, and focus on technique and sight tracking.

[KneeShot]

When is your support hand slipping? 2,3,6,11 rounds fired? How much is it moving? I think making micro adjustments (fixing your grip) during recoil may be one option to experiment with.

[randyflycaster]

My support hand is slipping after every round. Even if my strong hand is the hand that's moving, my support hand must stay on the gun. Instead of using the Shannon Smith technique of pushing my strong hand fingertips forward with my support hand, I am going to try to gently pull the gun back with my support hand.

Randy

[BehindBlueI's]

I will try Ernest's idea of using slight backward pressure with my support hand.

It helped me when my grip strength was severely compromised in my support hand due to nerve damage.

[TCB]

I use PROGRIP when I’m shooting matches and a bit of griptape under the trigger guard and where my support side thumb rests on my duty gun (non work plastic guns are stippled in these areas). It has helped a lot by increasing the amount of friction. I have smallerish hands and use a pretty neutral thumbs forward grip.

[Rocket20_Ginsu]

I️ have struggled with the same issue when shooting stock glocks, I️ find the grips very slick. Have you considered stippling or using skate / ladder tape? I️ apply a small piece right where the base of my support thumb contacts the frame to increase friction and prevent hand separation.

I️ also roll my elbows up and out without hunching my shoulders or tucking my head to apply more pressure on the frame.


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[Mas]

randyflycaster, would it be possible for you to get a videotape of you shooting -- with focus on your hands, and preferably from both sides -- to post here? It would really help with the "remote diagnostics."

[randyflycaster]

Yesterday I used Landgon's technique of slightly pulling backwards with my support hand. This technique stopped my hand from slipping and allowed me to put more grip pressure. Now I have to experiment with just how much backwards pressure to use.

My shooting improved, but I was still pulling some shots to the side. I also experimented with shooting with my elbows out and with my elbows down. I found the latter more comfortable, but the shooting results of both techniques were the same.

Randy

[Ballistic_RT]

OP- Not sure if you have found a way that works for you, but I have had a similar situation in the past. Currently I shoot a FN509 with the only modification being the addition of an RMR. In the past I shot glocks with WML and had no issues. However when I moved to the 509 I decided to roll without the WML. Instantly I realized I needed to change my grip up to keep slippage from happening as I no longer could index my support hand index finger in the notch created between the front of the trigger guard and the back of the light.

So the work around- I found that a more seeklander style of grip was the ticket. I put as much meat from my support hand as I could on the rear of the grip and I grip the ever loving piss out of the thing. That coupled with a slight bend in my elbows and pinching my shoulders back have pretty much solved my recoil control and hand slippage. On a good day atleast.

[willie]

Severe arthritis has forced me to experiment so factor that information into interpretation of post. I shoot right handled and discovered that placing my left index finder on the front of the trigger guard and exerting rearward pressure has provided a more secure grip. I no longer line up the bore's center line with the web between thumb and fore finger. Instead I shift my grip to the right far enough to permit he crook of the trigger finger to engage the trigger. This method works well with Glocks.

[jamautry]

I believe grip is the most important aspect to shooting a pistol quickly and accurately. For years I got by with an ok grip because I have very large strong hands. I have had many top notch instructors look at and ok my grip. One day after watching a Rob Leatham video I realized my grip was holding me back. In the video he stated with a proper grip you should be able to shoot a bill drill and keep all shots in the A zone and pull the trigger as fast as you can. I have never been able to do that, I always had to slow my splits down a bit. So I decided to get serious about my grip. I began a year's worth of work just working on my grip. I would watch a video then try that grip for awhile. I learned that to find the best grip for me I had to become a real time analytical shooter. In other words, I had to learn to become very good at calling my shots and watching my sights to be able to see how my grip changes were effecting my shooting. From a technigue point of view I had to make sure and keep my forearms locked and have a strong grip with the sensation of my left hand twisting off a jar lid and my right hand tightening a jar lid (I am left handed) to maintain palm pressure at the rear of the grip and keep my hands locked together.

My point to this long post is once you pick a starting technique don't be afraid to make changes until you get the results you want. Always experiment and analyse.

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[randyflycaster]

Great description of how to apply grip pressure. Thanks so much,

Randy

[arcfide]

[Wrong thread.]

[Backspin]

I found Rob Leatham's video on having a subtle push/pull to be helpful.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xNNlb7QjfGI

For me the pinch between my hands happens toward the base of my shooting hand thumb.

Jamautry, the analogy to twisting on/off a jar lid can be a useful description. I may have to steal that one!

[MattyD380]

I place my support hand lower on the grip than what you typically see in Youtube vids/forum pictures (I don't have many friends who shoot, and none who shoot seriously. So I'm kinda in my own bubble here--bear with me). You might try that?

I have very small hands, and I simply cannot exert any pressure with my support hand if it's hiked up, and cocked down (as modern technique suggests). Placing the hand lower lets me generate a lot more lateral force--especially on a shorter grip, where I can index the heel against the bottom edge of the grip. 92 compact (Wilson grips) works best for my hand size and technique. PX4c and a Smith 69XX are both close seconds.

Maybe formal instruction would change my approach... but that's what I've found gives me the tightest groups and most recoil control.

[Surf]

You need more or increased rearward pressure with the support hand. This can be done physically in an isometric type of way, or it can be done mechanically in how you set the "lock" with the support hands index finger and the way in which the support hand grips the pistol. Either your support shoulder and arm can accomplish this like Leatham, or the lock of your support hand grip can get it done as in Vogel.

Vogel's grip. Guys who "lock" the support hands index finger onto the trigger guard tend to create a mechancial type of lock whereas a tightening of the grip creates a much more effective jar lid effect, and in turn creates a push-pull effect within the support hand itself, ie Vogel.

Those who use a grip like Rob Leatham who has stacked index fingers rely more on iso-tension in that this type of grip uses a bit more iso or push-pull pressure that is generated by the shoulders into the arm and hand. It isn't a true ISO push-pull as in a Chapman, but a slight rearward pull to keep the hands locked or in contact. Of course the hands maintain grip pressure by the clamping action of the hand, but it isn't as strong as locking onto the trigger guard. They make up for this by the assisted and slight rearward pull of the support hand. It is a slightly different approach then Vogel's grip as Vogel attempts to use both hands to push forward on the pistol. Vogel uses no rearward pull of the arms, but forward push and he relies on his hands to stay locked onto the gun. As mentioned he has incredible grip strength to pull this off.

Most people are probably better off at least initially with a Leatham type of grip and as they get better in technique or grip strength they may start adapting, or not. It is pretty obvious that both methods can make you a world champion. No matter which you use, be sure that the first point of contact with the support hand is with the support hands index finger under the trigger guard and then backfill the grip panel with the palm swell of your support hand. If you place the support hand palm swell on the grip first and then wrap your fingers you will have a weaker grip, no matter which technique you use.

ETA - I tend to see guys who have longer, slimmer fingers with great grip strength pull of the Vogel technique well as experienced shooters, but they often migrate into this grip with experience. Guys with shorter, maybe fatter fingers, no matter the grip strength often have a hard time, reach wise, doing the Vogel grip. I would say Vogel's grip is pretty advanced and as GJM mentions, pretty much works well for fewer people.

[GJM]

A red dot is a great diagnostic tool, because of how it moves as you press the trigger and the gun recoils, giving you all sorts of feedback as to how well you are gripping the gun.

There is a lot of variation in hand size and strength, technique used and gun weight/caliber/recoil impulse. At the end of the day, there is no one size fits all method, and you have to just do the work, and figure out what is best for you. That will likely continue to evolve. The good news is you can shoot A’s all day even with a crappy grip.

[Ballistic_RT]

A red dot is a great diagnostic tool, because of how it moves as you press the trigger and the gun recoils, giving you all sorts of feedback as to how well you are gripping the gun.

There is a lot of variation in hand size and strength, technique used and gun weight/caliber/recoil impulse. At the end of the day, there is no one size fits all method, and you have to just do the work, and figure out what is best for you. That will likely continue to evolve. The good news is you can shoot A’s all day even with a crappy grip.

Couldnt agree more about the RDS being a diagnostic tool. It helped me tremendously on my presentation and trigger press during dryfire.

[Rex G]

Interesting reading; thanks to all, for contributing. I am having to change my gripping of pistols, due to worsening chronic ailments on the right side, and more acute, but hopefully heal-able injuries on the left side. Every technique, every tweak of each technique, every suggestion, and every piece of advice, is on the table. (Thankfully, I have a nice .22LR S&W Model 17, for low-recoil training.)

[randyflycaster]

I tried both techniques: the push/slightly pull and the tightening/loosening a jar lid. I shot somewhat better with the latter, but I will again try both techniques. The bottom line: my hand didn't slip off the gun.

Randy

[luckyman]

This is a bit tangential but I didn't want to open up an entire new thread for such a small detail...

Re: support hand, I have fairly small hands, and shoot 9mm glocks primarily. In the past my support hand has primarily felt like it is providing pressure on top of the strong hand, with the support hand fingers hooking over my strong hand knuckles, and leaving a pretty big callous on my strong hand ring finger knuckle. On the other side the base of my thumb has been obviously contacting the pistol, but a lot of the pressure has been applied to the fingers of my strong hand that have wrapped around the grip.

During recent dry fire I found support hand grip wanting to change, and exert most of the pressure against the left side of the grip, and on the other side with my index and especially middle finger applying a lot of pressure laterally to the underside right edge of the trigger guard. Is this a good, bad, or indifferent thing? Haven't had a chance to try it out in live fire yet, wondering how much to try to practice it. It seems like it might be a tiny bit better and also a bit less impacted by sweaty hands.