147gr "high velocity" 9mm in gel

[Tokarev]

I bought a bag of mixed pulled 9mm bullets from American Reloading awhile back. After sorting, I ended up with a few 147gr premium hollowpoint bullets. I loaded these with Viht 3N38 using data listed on their website.

First off, the published charge fills the case almost all the way. There isn't much room to seat bullets so I ended up with overall lengths in the 1.145" area. But even at the slightly longer lengths all loaded rounds passed the plunk test in a USP and 320.

I loaded four 147gr Federal HST, four Hornady XTP and four Speer Gold Dot using FC cases and CCI primers. This morning I fired for velocity and also fired two rounds of each into 10% gel from Clear Ballistics with the following results:

USP 9mm 4.25" barrel:

XTP avg 1,113fps with a high of 1,115 and a low of 1,111. One bullet penetrated 12" while the other went 17".

Gold Dot avg 1,115fps (chrono missed 2nd bullet) with penetration of 13" and 14"

HST avg 1,109.50fps with a high of 1,120 and a low of 1,099. Penetration was right about 14" for both.

Recoil was fairly stout but primers seem fine, etc. Velocities weren't as high as those listed in the Viht data but I assume much of that's based on barrel length.

And, for comparison, here are velocities from a SIG P320C. No gel data for these, just velocity:

147 XTP avg 1,076.50fps with a high of 1,079 and a low of 1,074.

147 Gold Dot avg 1,060fps. High 1,061 and low of 1,059.

147 HST avg 1,102fps. High 1,106 and 1,098 low.

Recovered bullets placed largest to smallest. The HST came out about 0.72in. The Gold Dots are close behind at about 0.65in and the XTP came out about 0.60in. The HST and Gold Dot appear to have retained 100% weight as did one XTP. The other XTP is now showing 139.8gr.

Overall, not too shabby.

I'll try again with some clothing. Hopefully sometime next week.

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[lyodbraun]

Nice testing with good results...

[Tokarev]

Both the HST and Gold Dot continue to impress. In this case the HST expanded to 200% with the Gold Dot only slightly behind.

If someone wanted to use similar ammo for a carry load it can be bought from Underwood. Underwood sells a 147 XTP +P load and a 147 +P+ Gold Dot load. And Federal sells a +P version of the HST.

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[5pins]

I think it's hard to beat the HST or Gold Dot.

I tested some 147gr HST's and Underwood +P's in Clear gel.

https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2017/05/15/federal-9mm-hst-147gr-p-in-clear-ballistics-gel/

https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2017/04/03/underwood-9mm-147gr-xtp-p-in-clear-ballistics-gel/

[Tokarev]

Edit--I see American Reloading had 147 G2 pulled but they're now out of stock. They do still show a mix of 124/147 G2. I think I'll buy a batch and see if I can play with the 147 G2 a bit. I'm curious about this bullet at higher-than-currently-available velocity. From what little I've read the G2 is pretty dependent on velocity in order to expand reliably.

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[Tokarev]

Same experiment with 124gr Gold Dot, 124gr HST and Barnes 115gr. The 124s are loaded with 3N38 to 1.14" while the Barnes is loaded with 4.7gr of Universal and seated to 1.10" as listed in the latest Lyman manual.

The Gold Dot load is running 1,272fps from a 4.25in barrel. Penetration is 12.5in.

The HST is running 1,307fps and penetrates 11in. This is a dangerous load with cases showing a tremendous bulge near the feed ramp.

The Barnes load is running 1,138fps with no crazy pressure signs. Penetration is 14.75in.

Overall, not surprising given what we know about these bullets. The HST and Gold Dot are tough and still stay together when pushed hard. But this load is too hot for safety reasons. I'll back it off a couple tenths and try again.

The Barnes load is fine and would likely make an excellent choice for personal protection. I think Double Tap loads the Barnes to similar speeds.



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[DocGKR]

There is no need to run 147 gr HST at +P in order to get good terminal results.

[Tokarev]

There is no need to run 147 gr HST at +P in order to get good terminal results.HST is a good bullet there's no disputing that.

I do have some 147gr bullets from Zero that don't do anything at 950fps. I might step on a couple and see if they will expand. Just for curiosity.

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[Lomshek]

HST avg 1,109.50fps with a high of 1,120 and a low of 1,099. Penetration was right about 14" for both.


For reference factory HST 147 +p averages 1045 fps out of my M&P 9 FS. By all accounts the standard load is only about 50 fps lower.

I had gotten the +p stuff a couple years ago when that's all I could find. Based on Doc's recommendation I'll use the standard load when I'm due for new ammo.

Seems like a whole lot of effort for a whopping 50 fps.

[Tokarev]

Alright. The box of pulled G2 147 Gold Dots has arrived. I'll dose these up with some 3N38 and see what happens. Might also try a few with Alliant Blue Dot since it is cheaper and easier to find. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171204/e864ce98fe1ecacf76fb13bf8e0bbf33.jpg

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[lyodbraun]

Alright. The box of pulled G2 147 Gold Dots has arrived. I'll dose these up with some 3N38 and see what happens. Might also try a few with Alliant Blue Dot since it is cheaper and easier to find. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171204/e864ce98fe1ecacf76fb13bf8e0bbf33.jpg

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Good luck hope those expand Im still seeing some from my box not expand...

[Unobtanium]

Good luck hope those expand Im still seeing some from my box not expand...

I have read ever since they came out, they sucked. So what's the deal, here? Is the G2 kindof like when Ford put the 4.6L motor in the mustang in 96 and 98, new and shittier?

[DocGKR]

Much like the Hornady Critical Duty, the Speer G2 works very well at what is was designed to accomplish--offer consistent terminal performance across the full spectrum of intermediate barriers in the FBI ammo test.

[TGS]

Good luck hope those expand Im still seeing some from my box not expand...

Are yours from the known defective batch?

[Tokarev]

Alright so he's the "high velocity" G2 test. As with the regular Gold Dot and HST these were loaded with the Viht published max for 3N38.

Six rounds were fired total. Three into Clear Gel and three over the chronograph for velocity average.

The first bullet failed to expand in bare gel and penetrated nearly 25" with a velocity of 1,044 fps.

The second bullet, also in bare gel, penetrated to 14.75" and had a velocity of 1,076 fps.

The last bullet in gel, using the heavy clothing barrier, penetrated right to 16" with a MV of 1,067 fps.

Average for all six rounds was 1,064.50 with an SD of 14.08.

The problem is I have no idea why there G2 bullets were pulled and scrapped. Were they from the known bad bullets that weren't expanding properly or were they pulled for something else?

Fortunately I do have a box of new factory G2 ammo that isn't from a reject lot or sold as training ammo. I'll pull four of these and load them up and see if I can't do a side-by-side standard vs high velocity G2 comparison.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171205/db2c80bce469406e66f59341d3a217ad.jpg

[Tokarev]

Much like the Hornady Critical Duty, the Speer G2 works very well at what is was designed to accomplish--offer consistent terminal performance across the full spectrum of intermediate barriers in the FBI ammo test.


What was the marketing push behind these? Was the G2 created to meet someone's specs (FBI?) or was there some failing of the 147 Gold Dot that Speer was hoping to address? Deeper penetration with more controlled expansion characteristics?

[DocGKR]

Not a marketing push, the G2 was designed to meet a requirement--which it is has done very well for several agencies, organizations, and units.

[ldunnmobile]

Wild guess but I speculate: being able to achieve consistent terminal performance across a range of intermediate barriers WHILE also being SUBSONIC could be the intent.

[lyodbraun]

Are yours from the known defective batch?

The first box I bought was definitely one of the defective ones, the others I've bought since have been of new manufactured dates and lot numbers and I've only recovered one or two rounds from gel others had passed through two 16" blocks...

[5pins]

The first box I bought was definitely one of the defective ones, the others I've bought since have been of new manufactured dates and lot numbers and I've only recovered one or two rounds from gel others had passed through two 16" blocks...

Was that with bare gel or denim?

[lyodbraun]

Bare gel didn't even bother with denim testing.. HST and original Golddots are the way to go...

[Unobtanium]

Bare gel didn't even bother with denim testing.. HST and original Golddots are the way to go...

Kindof what I've been hearing, as well. HST works damn well, nowdays. The gold dots did/do, too. This G2 stuff...

[Tokarev]

Kindof what I've been hearing, as well. HST works damn well, nowdays. The gold dots did/do, too. This G2 stuff...I recently got a couple boxes of the G2 40 S&W. It worked great. Expanded nice in bare and with clothing.

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[lyodbraun]

Went out today to test few rounds as always the new G2 only had one round expand out of four... the critical duty rounds with the polymer plug removed did very well compared to with the plug in and of course the regular gold dots were good as well as the HST https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171230/4d8cbf9ebb03f3215d8be9aa25017174.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171230/dc72a2b6ee1f71b4980fdc91fb8e01d3.jpg

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171230/5ee1724f51bf88b1b1c77a186fbeb09f.jpg

[Tokarev]

Went out today to test few rounds as always the new G2 only had one round expand out of four... the critical duty rounds with the polymer plug removed did very well compared to with the plug in and of course the regular gold dots were good as well as the HST https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171230/4d8cbf9ebb03f3215d8be9aa25017174.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171230/dc72a2b6ee1f71b4980fdc91fb8e01d3.jpg

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171230/5ee1724f51bf88b1b1c77a186fbeb09f.jpgWhat are you shooting into?

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[lyodbraun]

What are you shooting into?

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These were into the ballistic gel, not the real stuff, with a few layers of shirt material as a barrier, lost or threw out all my denim pieces..

[Bort]

I bought a bag of mixed pulled 9mm bullets from American Reloading awhile back. After sorting, I ended up with a few 147gr premium hollowpoint bullets. I loaded these with Viht 3N38 using data listed on their website.

First off, the published charge fills the case almost all the way. There isn't much room to seat bullets so I ended up with overall lengths in the 1.145" area. But even at the slightly longer lengths all loaded rounds passed the plunk test in a USP and 320.

I loaded four 147gr Federal HST, four Hornady XTP and four Speer Gold Dot using FC cases and CCI primers. This morning I fired for velocity and also fired two rounds of each into 10% gel from Clear Ballistics with the following results:

USP 9mm 4.25" barrel:

XTP avg 1,113fps with a high of 1,115 and a low of 1,111. One bullet penetrated 12" while the other went 17".

Gold Dot avg 1,115fps (chrono missed 2nd bullet) with penetration of 13" and 14"

HST avg 1,109.50fps with a high of 1,120 and a low of 1,099. Penetration was right about 14" for both.

Recoil was fairly stout but primers seem fine, etc. Velocities weren't as high as those listed in the Viht data but I assume much of that's based on barrel length.

And, for comparison, here are velocities from a SIG P320C. No gel data for these, just velocity:

147 XTP avg 1,076.50fps with a high of 1,079 and a low of 1,074.

147 Gold Dot avg 1,060fps. High 1,061 and low of 1,059.

147 HST avg 1,102fps. High 1,106 and 1,098 low.

Recovered bullets placed largest to smallest. The HST came out about 0.72in. The Gold Dots are close behind at about 0.65in and the XTP came out about 0.60in. The HST and Gold Dot appear to have retained 100% weight as did one XTP. The other XTP is now showing 139.8gr.

Overall, not too shabby.

I'll try again with some clothing. Hopefully sometime next week.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171124/34dded59ac5a47fbf4991848364f943e.jpg

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Those are very impressive results. Did you have any issues clambering the XTPs in your USP seated at ~1.145? I just bought a P30 and noticed that they chamber fine but it takes great effort to extract the chambered round. I just want to be sure it is safe to fire being jammed in there so tight. I don’t have this issue in my PPQ.

[Tokarev]

Those are very impressive results. Did you have any issues clambering the XTPs in your USP seated at ~1.145? I just bought a P30 and noticed that they chamber fine but it takes great effort to extract the chambered round. I just want to be sure it is safe to fire being jammed in there so tight. I don’t have this issue in my PPQ.

No, sir. No issues noted.

[witchking777]

These results are making me question carrying G2 in my Gen 5 G17,I would think that with the nose pre-filled it would perform better/expand easier than a traditional hollow point,I'm considering going back to the 147 gr HST,considering I can get it at almost $10 cheaper per box/50. Thoughts?

[lyodbraun]

These results are making me question carrying G2 in my Gen 5 G17,I would think that with the nose pre-filled it would perform better/expand easier than a traditional hollow point,I'm considering going back to the 147 gr HST,considering I can get it at almost $10 cheaper per box/50. Thoughts?

Yeah I won't carry it either, you can also get regular Golddots at much cheaper prices as well and perform better as well.. IMO until I can get a Box of the G2 to expand everytime I won't use or carry it...

[1986s4]

VV 3N38 is a great powder for high velocity loads.