Firearms and young children

[breakingtime91]

My son is just around a year and a half now. He is running around, yelling, and getting into everything. I have been causally talking about a "Dad Gun" for awhile now and some other considerations have really come to the forefront. Whether intelligently thought out or not, I am not incredibly comfortable carrying a Glock around my son. He climbs all over me and grabs at my clothing, which is sort of a concealment concern but the biggest issue I have been worrying about is him actually grabbing onto the gun or dislodging it while carrying him. While the chance is remote, it wouldnt be the first time he goes from 0% activity to 150% grabbing and ripping at things. Not sure if this concern makes a lot of sense but for whatever reason, I am looking for a set up that has more margin for error. I never leave loaded guns out, they are always in the safe and the only gun loaded is the carry gun and if its not in the safe its on my body. Anyone else go through this? My wife and I had his conversation last week and her thought process mirrored mine, we want the safest set up possible that will allow me to protect us but also give the biggest margin against accidents.

I understand all firearms are dangerous but I am really starting to see from taking an unbiased look that some are just simply easier for a child to grab onto and inadvertently fire. It has been awhile since my "two years with a g19" journal has been updated at that was partly because the craziness of life, school, and work but also this concern. This is mostly a mind dump about my own issues and feelings, but it is something my family has been discussing and for now I have opted to carry a shield 9mm with manual safety that I had in the safe until I can figure out how I want to proceed.

[breakingtime91]

My son is almost 6 and I’ve been his primary, and often sole, caregiver the entire time. I’ve carried a G19 AIWB daily and never had any issue with the gun becoming dislodged, due to my son or otherwise. Perhaps he wasn’t as “grabby” as your boy is.

The biggest “problem” I had was the persistent tendinitis in my left elbow from always carrying him with my left arm. I was weirdly anti-stroller and until he could get around on his own out in public, I carried him.

He is really curious about everything. Lifts up your shirt to make sure you have a belly button, takes hard drives from
Xboxes, will try to grab my flashlight out of my pocket, etc. like I said, I’m not sure if I’m being 100% rationale or if I’m just being a over protective/concerned relatively new Dad.

[Qaz98]

Following. breakingtime91 I share your sentiments. I went from IWB to AIWB, in part because of my kids. I was always flashing when I bent over to play with them or chasing them around. I do think most people will tell you that if you have a good holster, it shouldn't be a problem. Having said that, I am transitioning myself towards DA/SA. I showed my son (5ish) some pistols, and after the safety check, had him hold it, and pull the trigger (while observing and verbalizing all gun safety rules!). With two fingers, he could pull the Striker- his hands were way too small and did not have enough finger strength to pull the DA. So at my kids current age, I think DA/SA is safer - and for me, too! That's my own personal take on it. YMMV. IMHO. LOL. WTF. (Not a big fan of text abbreviations, haha.)

[Duelist]

Friend of mine has two little girls who act like you describe your son, as well as an infant. He has a collection to choose from, but only likes to carry Glock - so he's carrying Israeli style, and won't hear of doing something different.

I'd say your shield is a good way to go for now. Certainly better than Israeli style.

When my kids were little, I primarily carried a jframe in a SmartCarry or in a horsehide pocket holster. Today, I'm not sure what I would do differently than my G26 in a JCMK IWB holster to keep it away from little kids. I have no grandkids, (and if neither of my kids starts dating sometime, may never have any) but we do have wee nieces and nephews and cousins around. I am not the wrestle on the ground uncle, so my thoughts on this are more along the lines of: keep carrying something. A little safety lever (like an M&P can have) may or may not be the answer. Maybe a TDA is the answer. Maybe a TDA with a safety is the answer.

The thing that I've always espoused is that you cannot kid-proof your guns without making them useless. All my guns that I'm not actually using or carrying are locked up. They are essentially useless. I could make them more kid-proof: they could all be completely separated from all ammunition (keep it in another safe in an outbuilding!?) and disassemble the guns that can be so stored, with cable locks on the rest. I don't go to such silly extremes, but I do lock most of them up most of the time, and all the time if there are kids in the house besides mine. That's fine, I have one or two out and they're what I intend to repel any boarding parties with. But I still have visiting kids to be concerned with, that one or those two guns are probably out, and kids are curious and smart and stupid. Curious, especially about little machines and things they see on TV. Smart about figuring things out, like how to make things go or mimicking what they see others do, like actors. Stupid about consequences: and that leads to kids shooting siblings, parents, grandparents, babysitters, or themselves.

So, gun-proofing your kids becomes the key thing. If you take away the stupid, smart, and curious issues they have around guns, guns become much less dangerous to them. Show them what guns really do: put kid sized eye and ear pro on them, and blow up a pumpkin, put a JHP through a large watermelon, and ask if they'd like to see a hole like that in they're own stomach or mom or Dad or the cat. Concrete examples make them less stupid about what guns really do: they make holes in stuff. Show them how they work, and let them help clean them, and let them touch them whenever they ask. This takes away the curious and smart issues they have: they won't be tempted to play with forbidden fruit because it isn't forbidden. They won't need to try to figure out how to make it work because they already know. And they will know that one of the few times a spanking (or other severe punishment) might happen would be if they touched a gun w/o asking. Then you expand to the Eddie Eagle stuff: never touch a gun in someone else's house, and leave a house that leaves them out, or friends who play with them.

You are going to have guns in your house. Half their friends, statistically, will likely have guns in their houses. You have to gun-proof your kids, not the other way around.

Your carry gun, and your carry method, are really only a small part of that. I firmly believe you can safely carry a GLOCK or any other safe gun, fully loaded, safely around your children. But the gun, holster, position, and belt (if needed) are a system you will have to parse carefully.

[Duelist]

Following. breakingtime91 I share your sentiments. I went from IWB to AIWB, in part because of my kids. I was always flashing when I bent over to play with them or chasing them around. I do think most people will tell you that if you have a good holster, it shouldn't be a problem. Having said that, I am transitioning myself towards DA/SA. I showed my son (5ish) some pistols, and after the safety check, had him hold it, and pull the trigger (while observing and verbalizing all gun safety rules!). With two fingers, he could pull the Striker- his hands were way too small and did not have enough finger strength to pull the DA. So at my kids current age, I think DA/SA is safer - and for me, too! That's my own personal take on it. YMMV. IMHO. LOL. WTF. (Not a big fan of text abbreviations, haha.)

A 5yo can get a TDA to fire. The child will use both his or her thumbs on the trigger, fingers all on the back of the grip, gun upside down, muzzle pointed at their chest or stomach, and perhaps in contact in order to get the leverage needed to overcome the trigger weight.

There is no kid-proof gun.

Gun-proof your kids. A 5yo can cognate well enough to really understand the consequences of real bullets destroying large fruits - they need concrete, real examples they can extrapolate from because fantasy and reality are only starting to separate at that young age.

[breakingtime91]

A 5yo can get a TDA to fire. The child will use both his or her thumbs on the trigger, finger on the back of the grip, gun upside down, muzzle pointed at their chest or stomach, and perhaps in contact in order to get the leverage needed to overcome the trigger weight.

There is no kid-proof gun.

Gun-proof your kids. A 5yo can cognate well enough to really understand the consequences of real bullets destroying large fruits - they need concrete, real examples they can extrapolate from because fantasy and reality are only starting to separate at that young age.

I plan on doing what your saying and have already taken steps, like having guns away that are not in use or could be within reach. I think what your saying is really the most important but you can have certain firearms that are harder for kids to work, like a 1911 with a grip safety and manual safety that they would have to figure out before you realized whats happening. no gun is "safe" for kids but I think some give you more time/margin for error

[LOKNLOD]

The main problem I’ve had with it was once when I was flopped back in a chair and one of the girls came over and flopped face first into my lap and busted her lip on the slide of a P30.

I think it’s a legitimate concern, based on what you know is best for your comfort level and your knowledge of your kid’s behavior.

I think the manual safety idea is a good extra level, my wife’s main gun would be a thumb safety shield for a similar reason.

[Qaz98]

A 5yo can get a TDA to fire. The child will use both his or her thumbs on the trigger, fingers all on the back of the grip, gun upside down, muzzle pointed at their chest or stomach, and perhaps in contact in order to get the leverage needed to overcome the trigger weight.

There is no kid-proof gun.

Gun-proof your kids. A 5yo can cognate well enough to really understand the consequences of real bullets destroying large fruits - they need concrete, real examples they can extrapolate from because fantasy and reality are only starting to separate at that young age.

Yeah, I'm not saying that TDA is kid proof - and I like the phrase if gun proofing your kids, rather than kid proofing your guns. I do, believe, however, that a TDA would be more difficult than a Striker with 5.5 lb trigger pull - and even safer than a 1911 with a manual safety and a 3 lb trigger pull. Others may disagree. But it's also the reason I now prefer a TDA for EDC because of the deliberate first pull, for myself, and not just because I think it's kid-proof.

[Doc_Glock]

OP: you are doing things right.

The most important steps, especially at that young age are:
gun on body in a solid holster, or gun locked up. Being consistent and 100% on those two points is by far the best thing you can do.

If you want more reassurance: a TDA might be helpful. In my experience they are dang hard for a kid under 8 yo discharge a DA shot. It can be done but takes persistence.

Yours is too young to do a ton of education but very soon you should do just that. My kids think guns are boring. Occasionally they will ask to hold or see one and they always get that chance if they ask.

[Bigghoss]

Gun-proof your kids. A 5yo can cognate well enough to really understand the consequences of real bullets destroying large fruits - they need concrete, real examples they can extrapolate from because fantasy and reality are only starting to separate at that young age.

I have done this and it works.

[fixer]

going through all this right now.

I had previously decided the best set up for me was a 92, extra precautions with putting things in safes, or in far out of the way places. My reasoning was similar--a 92 with a thumb safety presented several layers of protection against a worst case scenario of my kid getting a hold of the pistol without me being there.

I carried this platform for a long time. The DA pull consistently flummoxed me. I've put thousands of rounds down range. Had good instruction and dry fired like a mad man. I've concluded that the 92s DA pull was way too long for my hand size. The problem is that I had really really bad consistency in shooting the first DA shot. This presented a problem where my confidence in accurately deploying the weapon was at a record low.

I still think the DA/SA is a more safe design but I now have to find the right platform. PX4? 229? P30? I don't know. I would have to make a big platform change that I don't have the space in my life for right now (and won't in the near future). Busy dad, busy worker bee, house projects, etc...My time at the range is carefully plotted and planned.

So...that all led my back to the Glock platform.

I went to the range last weekend for the first time with a Glock in 8 months and had impressive results substantially better than my DA shooting.

So I'm working with a platform that I shoot better, need less range time to maintain, and have to invent new routines and disciplines to prevent unwanted access.

[Duelist]

OP: you are doing things right.

The most important steps, especially at that young age are:
gun on body in a solid holster, or gun locked up. Being consistent and 100% on those two points is by far the best thing you can do.

If you want more reassurance: a TDA might be helpful. In my experience they are dang hard for a kid under 8 yo discharge a DA shot. It can be done but takes persistence.

Yours is too young to do a ton of education but very soon you should do just that. My kids think guns are boring. Occasionally they will ask to hold or see one and they always get that chance if they ask.

My kids pretty much think they are boring, too. Sometimes I wonder what I could have done to encourage more interest. They will go shoot with me to spend time with me, but don't think to ask to go on their own. My 18yo went to a local club match with me, and shot and did fine, he was very safe, and said he had a good time and liked the gun he used. I asked him if he wanted one for himself, and he said he'd rather start playing violin.

I bought him a violin.

[JRB]

While I appreciate and respect your prioritization here, I don't feel it's entirely rational. I believe teaching your child, empathically, never to touch your holster, and perhaps adding some kind of holster retention are much more critical variables in this kind of situation than the weapon itself.

I totally understand and respect what you're saying on the chaotic spontaneity with which kids can go from docile to hyperactively feral, believe me! - and having spent a lot of time carrying around a LOT of very hyperactive young kids (my ex of 6 years was a pre-school teacher that focused on 3yr-4yr olds) and carrying around my now-2.5 year old nephew - I firmly believe that disciplinary reinforcement ("NO! DO NOT GRAB THAT SPOT ON DADDY") should be the focus, and perhaps changing your holster to include some kind of secondary retention if it makes you feel better and doesn't substantially slow your draw.

In short, I believe you should focus on how best to keep that weapon in the holster - not changing the weapon around.

[Cookie Monster]

Your thinking hard about it which is good. I got two boys that are 2 years plus.

I roll with pocket carrying a G42 right now, used to be a G26 but health issues. The way my world is I cannot comfortably carry AIWB or IWB fulltime as much as I would like to. I come home, put the weapons it in the safe (except for my fists) and go about wrestling and playing and doing dad stuff. I can easily compluse about things so having to keep aware of a firearm or worrying about that would (I feel) interfere with my time with my boys. Do to a lots of things, I often feel I am not firing on all cylinders - fatigue, joint pain, and job stress.

I feel like my boys are a year or two away from getting it with guns. They are helping with cooking so are pretty good about keeping their hands off the knives and other adult tools. But pretty good and guns is not something I feel like trying.

Something I have learned as a parent is that you have to make the choices that are right for your family and you. Going through parenthood has made me a lot better at not judging people.

I also have a wife who hates guns and loves me enough to ignore that I carry everyday, have 5 fire extinguishers in the house, and the myriad of other "weird" things I do.

So yea, I put the guns away and do my thing. When I leave the homestead, I arm up and pocket carry I feel keep things very discreet and contained. This is right for me, probably not for you but wanted to put out an opinion that might be a little different then you will hear on PF.

[Cory]

My son turned a year old on the 22nd. So I'm just a tad behind you. Since I work from home now I'm not carrying very much. In addition I don't have my concealed permit in my new state, so it's going to be a little bit before I do begin carrying again. I have however been working on dry fire, and needed to pause to do something with my son, while my G17 was AIWB. I understand your concerns, but feel that if you are using a quality holster you should be adequately able to prevent them from accessing the firearm on your person and discharging it.

As far as around the house safety, I keep all of my firearms in one room, which ammo never enters. Ammo is kept in my bedroom, firearms in my office. Firearms don't go in the bedroom (usually. HD gun in small safe is the exception), ammo doesn't go in the office. If the two are never together, than they can't go bang. It's my intention to eventually have a large gun safe to store my firearms (as oppose to just keeping my office door closed and off limits as I do now), and a smaller safe in my bedroom to contain home defense options (though large enough for a single long gun). That's the hardware solution I'm aiming for.

The software solution I plan on when he gets older basically involves shooting. I want my son to know that I really enjoy firearms, and it's something I'm excited to share with him. Any time he wants to "play" with my guns I'll be more than happy to get them out, show him how to make sure they are empty, and how they work. Anytime you want to know more about Dad's hobby just ask, buddy. Because I absolutely can't wait to teach you about them, how they work, what they do. I look forward to the first time I see him bust a clay, shoot a handgun drill, and zero a rifle. So anytime he wants to "play" with my guns I'll take the time to teach him about them so we can share good times on the range later. Hopefully that stops my guns from being taboo, or something to be curious about.

So, I guess my aim is to prevent access without me, and prevent them from being something to be curious about. I do need to move past a closed door for access prevention. I just don't have the cash for a long gun safe at the moment.

-Cory

[StraitR]

I went through the same thought process because of my young kids, and along with some other factors, decided on pistols with manual safeties.

I'll likely go my whole life without ever using a firearm in defense, but my kids are in close proximity to them in one capacity or another on a daily basis. If nothing happens, if something happens, both are on me. If I were perfect, I wouldn't worry about such things. But I'm not, so I take as many precautions as possible on the chance I make a mistake with potentially permanent consequences.

If mission drives the gear train, it's a matter of prioritizing our missions and choosing accordingly. One will either error on the side of caution or not, we're all predisposed and have our tendencies.

ETA: There are no absolutes in this. Like any other firearm issue, there isn't a guaranteed hardware fix to software issues. Kids are software issues. Us leaving the gun on the bathroom sink, or the safe door open, is a software issue. Mistakes happen. The goal with my choice is to simply add a layer of complexity in the hardware while simultaneously addressing software.

[zart312]

I totally get it. That’s why I put the glocks in the safe and bought a couple da/sa HK’s. I feel very good about my 17 month old daughter sleeping on my lap, carrying her, or being on the floor with her. Now I’m just trying to decide if I want to change them to lem variants.


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[HCM]

I totally get it. That’s why I put the glocks in the safe and bought a couple da/sa HK’s. I feel very good about my 17 month old daughter sleeping on my lap, carrying her, or being on the floor with her. Now I’m just trying to decide if I want to change them to lem variants.


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The USPC can be converted to LEM with a manual safety.

[M2CattleCo]

DA/SA, manual safety, tell 'em to never touch, is a recipe for disaster. They WILL be able to make the gun fire, they WILL play with them if they find them when you're not around. As already stated, if they can't pull the trigger with their finger, they'll turn the pistol around and pull it with their thumbs.

I have a 2yo boy and 9yo girl that are curious about everything. My 2yo has NEVER seen a gun fired in person, has never even seen me dry-fire a pistol. A few months before he turned two he was with me while I was working on a frame and I had an old stripped Glock 17K frame that has been used as a test mule for stippling and stuff like that. He immediately picked it up and started pointing it at things and making gun sounds. Kids know more than we think they do.

I carry a Glock the same way I always have carried, either AIWB, or strongside IWB or OWB.

With kids you have to be VIGILANT in remaining in 100% control of your guns 100% of the time. The only pistol not in the safe is on my body in a holster. When my pistol comes off at night, an AR comes out of the safe and is placed in my closet. When I wake up at 0530-0600, the AR comes out of the closet and goes to the safe where a Glock is put on for the day. My belts and holsters are kept in the closet where the safe is and that's where they stay when not on me. Carrying the AR to the safe is part of getting dressed as my belts and holsters are kept in the room with the safe. Taking the Glock off and putting it in the safe is part of getting undressed as I hang my belts next to the safe. I'm always looking for ways to improve the system.

[StraitR]

The USPC can be converted to LEM with a manual safety.

That's awesome. Any other models able to do the same? P30 or P2k?

[Totem Polar]

I may have missed it, but has anyone brought up adding a level of retention to your carry rig? Until your kid gets older and phases out of the grabby stage, it might be a layer worth considering—more so than a platform change. Just throwing it out there.

[HCM]

That's awesome. Any other models able to do the same? P30 or P2k?

The USP full size, HK45 and HK45C.

HK imported a small batch of P30L LEM with a manual safety but they bring scalper / collector prices. It is apparently possible to convert P30V3 to LEM but I don't know if that is true of the safety version. P30 LEM conversions are not supported or sanctioned by HK.

There are no provisions for a manual safety on the P2000.

Personally I prefer the USPC and USP to the Spider-Man grip guns.

[zart312]

The USP full size, HK45 and HK45C.

HK imported a small batch of P30L LEM with a manual safety but they bring scalper / collector prices. It is apparently possible to convert P30V3 to LEM but I don't know if that is true of the safety version. P30 LEM conversions are not supported or sanctioned by HK.

There are no provisions for a manual safety on the P2000.

Personally I prefer the USPC and USP to the Spider-Man grip guns.

I prefer the size of the USP personally. It just fits my hand better then anything else. Reason I’m thinking of converting to the lem is the safety lever it right in the way of my grip. But I’m just not sure.


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[StraitR]

HCM Thanks for the clarification.

[Duelist]

I may have missed it, but has anyone brought up adding a level of retention to your carry rig? Until your kid gets older and phases out of the grabby stage, it might be a layer worth considering—more so than a platform change. Just throwing it out there.

That was part of why I went with the SmartCarry for so long - my kids might put their hands in my pockets, or lift or shift my shirt, but reaching into my crotch wasn't something that happened with anybody but my wife. And she knew there was a gun in there.

That complete coverage was as good as another layer of security on a holster. At least in my head. Does kind of limit you to a small gun, though.

[breakingtime91]

DA/SA, manual safety, tell 'em to never touch, is a recipe for disaster. They WILL be able to make the gun fire, they WILL play with them if they find them when you're not around. As already stated, if they can't pull the trigger with their finger, they'll turn the pistol around and pull it with their thumbs.

I have a 2yo boy and 9yo girl that are curious about everything. My 2yo has NEVER seen a gun fired in person, has never even seen me dry-fire a pistol. A few months before he turned two he was with me while I was working on a frame and I had an old stripped Glock 17K frame that has been used as a test mule for stippling and stuff like that. He immediately picked it up and started pointing it at things and making gun sounds. Kids know more than we think they do.

I carry a Glock the same way I always have carried, either AIWB, or strongside IWB or OWB.

With kids you have to be VIGILANT in remaining in 100% control of your guns 100% of the time. The only pistol not in the safe is on my body in a holster. When my pistol comes off at night, an AR comes out of the safe and is placed in my closet. When I wake up at 0530-0600, the AR comes out of the closet and goes to the safe where a Glock is put on for the day. My belts and holsters are kept in the closet where the safe is and that's where they stay when not on me. Carrying the AR to the safe is part of getting dressed as my belts and holsters are kept in the room with the safe. Taking the Glock off and putting it in the safe is part of getting undressed as I hang my belts next to the safe. I'm always looking for ways to improve the system.

Being vigilant is the first step and educating them. My main question is are some platforms more safe then others? I know Nyeti said that he used to carry a very specific gun in schools because the risk of a kid getting to it.

[M2CattleCo]

No. If you can use it, they can too. My average two year old can start cars, turn on and play with any electronic device, and is good with an iPhone. He can (ask me how I know) squeeze a ketchup packet hard enough to burst it. Pretty sure any two year old could find a way to pull a trigger.

[breakingtime91]

No. If you can use it, they can too. My average two year old can start cars, turn on and play with any electronic device, and is good with an iPhone. He can (ask me how I know) squeeze a ketchup packet hard enough to burst it. Pretty sure any two year old could find a way to pull a trigger.

So you don’t believe something like a manual safety could buy you time? My concern isn’t my son finding my pistol lying around, if the gun isn’t on me it’s locked up. My concern is somehow it comes dislodged and he gets to t before me. I “feel” like a manual safety may give me more of chance to negate that risk. Agreed that kids will figure out to use any gun eventually. Hence why I keep my home defense carbine condition 3 with safety on. A lot of steps before that gun is ready to go

[dkv]

I may have missed it, but has anyone brought up adding a level of retention to your carry rig? Until your kid gets older and phases out of the grabby stage, it might be a layer worth considering—more so than a platform change. Just throwing it out there.

I switched to a Safariland GLS holster after my p2000sk managed to come (slightly) out of a Comptac Infidel while rolling around on the couch with the kids.
It's a bit bulky but I like it.

[Duelist]

Being vigilant is the first step and educating them. My main question is are some platforms more safe then others? I know Nyeti said that he used to carry a very specific gun in schools because the risk of a kid getting to it.

I might go back to a safety-on TDA like a 3913 or PX4C due to the kid getting hold of it and giving me a moment more to process and react, as opposed to the grandma whose toddler grandkid grabbed her striker fired gun from her purse and shot somebody just that quick. It's interesting that lots of people think the only gun a person should consider carrying is one that is that simple and easy to use - but when you throw munchkins into the mix, it doesn't seem like such a hot idea.

My wife and kids don't like the heavy DA trigger, even on my slickest, smoothest TDA triggers. That's one big reason we've been experimenting with Glocks. My daughter actually likes my 642, but shoots a G42 better. So, which is better? Something easier to shoot well, or something more difficult to shoot?

None of this is new. People complain about how hard some guns are to shoot well, and rave about other guns, and you have to weigh out what your priorities are, and do what you can to maximize effectiveness and safety with whatever you are using.

IIRC, the small DAO S&W revolvers were the first to be deliberately designed to be harder to shoot, rather than easier to shoot accurately and quickly. One of the founders of S&W was distraught after a report came in of a small child killing himself with an S&W revolver his parents kept for protection. He spent the next year or two designing and building prototypes of small framed revolvers, changing trigger spring weight, pull length, geometry, etc, all in an effort to, when he would take the prototypes home, have something his own child would not be able to figure out a way to pull the trigger on. The heaviest DA trigger that was still shootable, combined with a backstrap safety, was the best he could do. And now we have the jframe as the culmination of that effort, and it's easy to carry and hard to shoot well and reload quickly, and only holds 5 rounds.

And a kid might still do the thumbs trick and shoot himself.

So my one friend only carries chamber empty. Breakingtime carries a gun with a safety. Other people put their guns away when they are home with the kids.

What's the answer? I don't know. A level III security holster like cops use? Then carry whatever gun you like?

[OlongJohnson]

I do need to move past a closed door for access prevention. I just don't have the cash for a long gun safe at the moment.

Should be some deals on at least the Stack-On sheet metal cabinets today. Not going to slow down a serious thief much, but they should be good against kids and visitors with inadequately formed ideas about boundaries.

Barring that, a keyed door lock is about $20-30 at Home Depot or Lowes and takes fewer minutes to install.



HK imported a small batch of P30L LEM with a manual safety but they bring scalper / collector prices.

I "might" know where one of these could be obtained. It's the extra-rare light LEM, but is chambered in .40.

[Qaz98]

going through all this right now.

I had previously decided the best set up for me was a 92, extra precautions with putting things in safes, or in far out of the way places. My reasoning was similar--a 92 with a thumb safety presented several layers of protection against a worst case scenario of my kid getting a hold of the pistol without me being there.

I carried this platform for a long time. The DA pull consistently flummoxed me. I've put thousands of rounds down range. Had good instruction and dry fired like a mad man. I've concluded that the 92s DA pull was way too long for my hand size. The problem is that I had really really bad consistency in shooting the first DA shot. This presented a problem where my confidence in accurately deploying the weapon was at a record low.

I still think the DA/SA is a more safe design but I now have to find the right platform. PX4? 229? P30? I don't know. I would have to make a big platform change that I don't have the space in my life for right now (and won't in the near future). Busy dad, busy worker bee, house projects, etc...My time at the range is carefully plotted and planned.



I had the same problem - Sig 229 with E2 grips, but I had to change the trigger to the SRT (not the SRT Kit but the "short trigger), which is thinner, enough to get a more comfortable reach. Sounds like it's more work than you want to do at this point, but it's an option that worked for me.

[M2CattleCo]

So you don’t believe something like a manual safety could buy you time? My concern isn’t my son finding my pistol lying around, if the gun isn’t on me it’s locked up. My concern is somehow it comes dislodged and he gets to t before me. I “feel” like a manual safety may give me more of chance to negate that risk. Agreed that kids will figure out to use any gun eventually. Hence why I keep my home defense carbine condition 3 with safety on. A lot of steps before that gun is ready to go

Yes, a manual safety may take them a little longer to deactivate, but it's not something I'd change for that reason. I've never had one come out of a holster, if it fell out in front of him, telling him NO would stop him from touching it long enough for me to get it.

My concern is when my wife and I are asleep, or busy doing other things. That's when a kid will get into stuff and quietly mess with it.

[StraitR]

The very same characteristics and MOA simplifications that allow guns to be shot easier by adults, is also true for kids.

[Balisong]

So you don’t believe something like a manual safety could buy you time? My concern isn’t my son finding my pistol lying around, if the gun isn’t on me it’s locked up. My concern is somehow it comes dislodged and he gets to t before me. I “feel” like a manual safety may give me more of chance to negate that risk. Agreed that kids will figure out to use any gun eventually. Hence why I keep my home defense carbine condition 3 with safety on. A lot of steps before that gun is ready to go

I think you've got valid concerns. If I'm understanding you correctly, you just want a gun that's a little harder to be inadvertently discharged if your grabby kid abruptly and accidentally yanks on it while you're carrying it. My suggestion would be a TDA with a safety. So HK or Beretta or maybe CZ (I think they have TDA with safety models but not positive)

[mtnbkr]

My kids are 14 and 9 and as "gun proof" as any humans can be, but I still wouldn't leave unsupervised guns laying around (though I could). I accomplished this by demystifying guns, making them as normal an item as possible. I started by taking them to gun stores whenever I went and letting the kids handle EMPTY guns when they asked. It only took 1-2 requests before *that* became boring. When they got older, and if they were interested, I let them shoot guns appropriate for their size and interest level. Thing 1 enjoys shooting and has claimed my Ruger 22/45 as her own. Thing 2 has no interest whatsoever in guns and would only touch one to move it out of her way (she's not anti, just not interested). Thing 1 once lectured me at the range because I put down an empty and slide-locked 22/45 without engaging the safety. :D

As for carrying, I mainly pocket-carried a j-frame until recently. In my mind, they were less likely to get grabby and get hold of the gun if it was in my pocket, nor was it likely to fall out or get dislodged (has worked for running around the playground, biking, etc). While a small child can find some way to actuate a DA revolver trigger, they are less likely to do so on a J-frame than a Glock "safe action" trigger. This was more to protect against sloppy handling if they were to pick up the gun rather than as protection against a kid determined to pull the trigger.

Chris

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If a kid can walk reasonably as a toddler, they can fire the gun. Given past debates, I once turned to the medical literature on children's hand strength. The literature exists for orthopedic and muscular disease references. I found that even the toddlers have enough hand strength to activate a DA trigger. Flipping a safety is trivial. Kids did that in seconds in a few tests of giving them unloaded guns. It is also the case that the young ones may understand your warnings and then completely ignore them when given a firearm and they are unobserved. For older kids and teens in particular, you may think you know your kids but you may not really. Those who pontificate that they do and run a tight ship may be particularly clueless. Their social lives can generate crisis so quickly that the parent is unaware of such. You have the risk of their friends also. It's great to give them gun lessons and demystify them as that might reduce some risk but the social forces risk outweigh the curiosity risk IMHO.

Having easy access to gun is a risk and the Internet trigger pull cliches are foolish for the little kids. For the older ones, yes - some kids have saved the day with guns. That's true. But you play that against the other risks. It's a tough call. In Bastrop, after the fires, parents left to get supplies and their teenage daughter successfully defended the house against potential looters as she was equipped by the parents before they left. However, would you leave the guns always accessible? That's a risk.

My conclusion - it's complex and I don't trust the trigger pull and/or I lectured my kids mantras as sufficient.

[GAP]

Yes, I went from carrying the G19 appendix, back to carrying the G26 behind my hip in a JM IWB3.

Once my daughter turned about 6 months old, she wanted to grab and kick at the gun constantly; she was extremely curious about figuring out what it was.

The G26 behind my hip is also more comfortable when she is on my lap jumping around. With the shorter grip of the G26, I don’t have to worry about printing either, so bending/squatting for her is almost a non-issue.

I guess it just works out better for me since the G26 is my favorite gun; it may for you as well, since you like the 19.

[lwt16]

I had a gun safe for about the whole time that junior was little and growing up to the eighteen year old he is today. I do remember telling him that he was not to touch the item in my waistband and was trained from early on not to announce what I do for a living when we were out in public.

He learned quick and it was never an issue.

I also took him out when he was very young and shot some things with my handgun to show him the destructiveness of whatever I had in my waistband at the time. He was quick to learn that as well.

He had his own BB gun at an early age and was taught the cardinal rules of firearms. Safety glasses and even hearing protection at that stage even though that Red Ryder didn't make any sort of noise....but it trained him to always use those items.

When he graduated to a single shot .22, he was already the most disciplined one at the range.....adults included. When "FIRING LINE IS COLD" was called, he opened his action while laying the rifle on the table and would back away from it. Several adult shooters noticed how careful he was and how well he could hit with that thing and would remark to me about how safe he was and how safe they felt around him.

He knows to always check chambers, to keep safeties on, to keep fingers off triggers and has exceptional muzzle discipline.

Only recently did we give him the combination to the safe as he is now an adult and he will end up with all of it's contents anyway. Even though he was uber safe and disciplined, I still didn't give him the access code until he was past 18.

On the flip side of that, he knew if he wanted to look at one of them, all he had to do was to come to me and ask and no matter how tired or worn out I was, I would always stay true to my word and crack the thing open for him. So in reality, there was never any reason for him to sneak around and look at them and when he was younger, he loved to get them out and look them over along with all the pocket knives.

Now I can't get him to go near the range......I think I'd have to offer him twenty bucks to go shoot. So it may have backfired on me a little as he seems to have no interest in what's in there other than the dollar value he can get for them when I die off. lol

Regards.

[andre3k]

I have two children under 2 and when I'm home I'm usually not wearing a holstered weapon. So, them grabbing or tugging at me isn't an issue. I usually just keep everything locked way in the safe and my duty rig sits on a high shelf in my closet.

I'm still a few years away from having the "talk" with them. Neither of them are at a point where they can verbalize that they understand something.

My dad was a police officer as well and he gave me the talk one time when I was about 5 years old. The gist of it was that if I ever touched his gun something bad would happen to me. I took that conversation to heart and never touched it or even had the curiosity to play with it.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I would caution that just because the 'talk' from Dad worked for you, that is no guarantee that it will work for others. In a similar vein, a case I know of.

Dad was a car nut and had a Chevy Nova SS 454. He loved that car. His son was an honor student that would make you proud - Scouts, Church, Grades, nice to puppies and old ladies, etc.

When son became 16 and got his license he asked Dad to drive the car for the first time. Dad said OK but only slowly in the neighborhood and no friends. The law found the kid and friends wrapped around a pole from a 100 mph crash, no one lived.

So I agree that till the kid reaches a more adult level (as above) unsupervised access is risky. Today's social media climate is scary.

[breakingtime91]

I would caution that just because the 'talk' from Dad worked for you, that is no guarantee that it will work for others. In a similar vein, a case I know of.

Dad was a car nut and had a Chevy Nova SS 454. He loved that car. His son was an honor student that would make you proud - Scouts, Church, Grades, nice to puppies and old ladies, etc.

When son became 16 and got his license he asked Dad to drive the car for the first time. Dad said OK but only slowly in the neighborhood and no friends. The law found the kid and friends wrapped around a pole from a 100 mph crash, no one lived.

So I agree that till the kid reaches a more adult level (as above) unsupervised access is risky. Today's social media climate is scary.

Ya I teach for a living, like pay the bills. No kid is the same and they will often tell you what you want to hear. I really am enjoying the dialogue though, many opinions on this.

[Artemas2]

I have heard good things about John Johnston(ballistic radio) & Melody Lauer's "armed parent class" which covers these kinds of questions. Short of taking their class you might be able to reach out to them on facebook, both are pretty active with live Q&A videos. I belive Melody's husband is a P-F member, though I don't recall his name.
http://citizensdefenseresearch.com/
https://www.facebook.com/CitizensDefenseResearch/?hc_ref=ARRpyXvjzHUAvzyuUuudicVio8k_Y4Re-Fog2lMiaCGRL-fnIaKhcVKUhrIS52mfGkE
https://primaryandsecondary.com/citizens-defense-researchs-the-armed-parentguardian-aar/
https://www.facebook.com/LimatunesRangeDiary/
https://www.facebook.com/ballisticradio/

[mtnbkr]

If a kid can walk reasonably as a toddler, they can fire the gun. Given past debates, I once turned to the medical literature on children's hand strength. The literature exists for orthopedic and muscular disease references. I found that even the toddlers have enough hand strength to activate a DA trigger. Flipping a safety is trivial. Kids did that in seconds in a few tests of giving them unloaded guns.

What *kind* of DA trigger? When I was first introducing my oldest to live fire at 8 or 9, she could not pull a DA revolver trigger and struggled enough with the SA hammer on my Bearcat that I would help her cock it each shot. Even as recently as when she was 12, she struggled with the DA trigger on my K22. That's why I have the 22/45, so she wouldn't have to fight against the gun to shoot it. Needless to say, I'm dubious about the claim that a toddler can actuate a DA trigger *as I know them*. It's especially dubious when we get into discussions about senior citizens and there are comments that they can't manage DA revolver triggers. So now we're saying a toddler can, but a senior citizen can't? Regardless, my point was that the heavier trigger was not to stop a determined child, but to prevent sloppy handling actuation.


It is also the case that the young ones may understand your warnings and then completely ignore them when given a firearm and they are unobserved. For older kids and teens in particular, you may think you know your kids but you may not really. Those who pontificate that they do and run a tight ship may be particularly clueless. Their social lives can generate crisis so quickly that the parent is unaware of such. You have the risk of their friends also. It's great to give them gun lessons and demystify them as that might reduce some risk but the social forces risk outweigh the curiosity risk IMHO.

No doubt there, which is why even now I do not leave my guns unsecured around the house. Nor do we allow friends over without either me or my wife in the house (I work from home and wife works part time, so there's seldom an opportunity for friends to show up when nobody is home).


Having easy access to gun is a risk and the Internet trigger pull cliches are foolish for the little kids. For the older ones, yes - some kids have saved the day with guns. That's true. But you play that against the other risks. It's a tough call. In Bastrop, after the fires, parents left to get supplies and their teenage daughter successfully defended the house against potential looters as she was equipped by the parents before they left. However, would you leave the guns always accessible? That's a risk.

My conclusion - it's complex and I don't trust the trigger pull and/or I lectured my kids mantras as sufficient.

It's layered security. Guns are locked up, those that are frequently "out" (on belt, etc) are not super-easy to actuate, and the kids are raised in a way to armor them against a "playing with guns" mindset. None of those alone are sufficient, but the combination of the three *should* prevent preventable tragedies.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

I would caution that just because the 'talk' from Dad worked for you, that is no guarantee that it will work for others. In a similar vein, a case I know of.

Dad was a car nut and had a Chevy Nova SS 454. He loved that car. His son was an honor student that would make you proud - Scouts, Church, Grades, nice to puppies and old ladies, etc.

When son became 16 and got his license he asked Dad to drive the car for the first time. Dad said OK but only slowly in the neighborhood and no friends. The law found the kid and friends wrapped around a pole from a 100 mph crash, no one lived.

So I agree that till the kid reaches a more adult level (as above) unsupervised access is risky. Today's social media climate is scary.

That was dad's fault. Not for trusting his son, but for thinking any new driver should be behind the wheel of that car. Most adults aren't well prepared to deal with the horsepower combined with a lack of modern traction control, ABS, etc, that make the modern equivalents manageable by amateurs.

Chris

[Duelist]

It doesn't matter what kind of DA trigger it is - a healthy child can get it to fire. Not necessarily aimed fire, which is what a senior citizen training to defend themselves is worried about.


A 5yo can get a TDA to fire. The child will use both his or her thumbs on the trigger, fingers all on the back of the grip, gun upside down, muzzle pointed at their chest or stomach, and perhaps in contact in order to get the leverage needed to overcome the trigger weight.

[Malamute]

I used to believe small children couldnt fire a DA revolver, but I was proven wrong by a friends 5 year old. He had zero problem running the trigger on my 640.

I wouldnt trust a high shelf in a closet to be safe. Maybe for a hidden Christmas present, but its discovery has far less consequences when discovered. I also wouldnt trust an "off limits room" to be safe. As somebody mentioned, you can buy a keyed entry knob for pretty cheap and put it on a closet (buy ones for the entry door, the ones often made for inside use, I think i was able to pick when about 5), as i did for visiting small children, or on room doors. The only true safe place for the key is on you 24/7, or in a combination safe, the instant you relax and lay it down somewhere, its fair game. I carry such important keys on a cord around my neck, even when sleeping when on trips. As a habit, I never, ever, leave keys laying around in the house for any reason, even when living alone. They are either on me or in a combination safe. Its a really bad habit to leave keys laying around for people with guns and kids if the keys lead to guns.

The cheapo cable locks are better than nothing for securing un-attended guns. I can suggest a good place to keep the key, but one could likely guess.

[nwhpfan]

My thoughts and I have 3 kids: 14, 12, 10. I have been in LE the entire time so I do a lot of musical guns. Duty holster, concealed carry, leaving for work, going to court, off-duty, going to training, going to SWAT training - different gear, guns, etc.

#1 My son accidently burned himself on the iron once so anything dangerous was "hot like the iron." Not sure how to duplicate that on purpose but he got it.

#2 I taught them the Eddie Eagle stuff. If you see a gun, stop, don't touch it, go get a grown up. As they grew I told them if they ever found and gun and told me about it without touch it I would give them money. I hid guns (unloaded of course because somebody would ask) in their stuff and watched them. When the saw it and ran to me I gave them $20.

#3 I never hid my guns. I told them they could hurt people, worse than the iron. If we saw roadkill and they were grossed out by it or distressed by the thought of death I would tell them a gun could do that so if they saw one they better just get me and get the reward.

#4 I took them all shooting when the wanted too and never since and if they ever wanted to shoot a gun, handle a gun, etc. all they had to do was ask.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That was dad's fault. Not for trusting his son

It just wasn't the car. As I posted, Dad said NO FRIENDS. The kid picked up his friends and then I suppose being boys they machoed themselves into the death ride. The friends part indicates that social forces screw kids. Also, for the TDA debate, I was thinking - if the gun has a hammer manipulable , TDA is meaningless.

There are videos of studies where five year olds are given the don't touch lecture. Adult leaves the room and the kids start playing with the guns.

[BobLoblaw]

The primary concern seems to be keeping the gun in the holster. Low-riding leather AIWB holsters seem to be preferred for weapon retention in grappling while still having quick access to the user. Also, kids will hit you in the crotch with their hands, feet, and head. Leather will hurt both of you a little less than any of the plastics.

The secondary concern seems to be a kid firing the gun once you lose control of it. Maybe it’s a good excuse to learn to shoot something else but if a little kid can take your gun, you are a big threat to your children. Some people fall asleep on the couch and some kids are dicks sometimes. That doesn’t make you less of a man to make the admission. Restrict access at all times. Smart carry completely solves that issue but the draw is slow.

Firearm model is fairly irrelevant in my opinion.

I’ll not comment on the primary layer of safety in raising/teaching kids as I’m also fairly new at training crazed munchkins.

TL;DR: low-riding leather AIWB or smart carry in house

[Cookie Monster]

The secondary concern seems to be a kid firing the gun once you lose control of it. Maybe it’s a good excuse to learn to shoot something else but if a little kid can take your gun, you are a big threat to your children. Some people fall asleep on the couch and some kids are dicks sometimes. That doesn’t make you less of a man to make the admission. Restrict access at all times.

Might be stepping in for the OP but I think he is thinking about that low probability mistake or thing that just happens. I doubt his 18 month old will go all ECQC on him. Wrestling with my boys things happen, falling off the couch, getting jump on by one to have the other come flying in from somewhere, getting upside down, etc. I don’t have the skills to guarantee that I would absolutely 100% retain the firearm, but I make the choice to throw in the safe.

The consequences of a bad outcome are horrific. I am enjoying the discussion as well.

[breakingtime91]

Might be stepping in for the OP but I think he is thinking about that low probability mistake or thing that just happens. I doubt his 18 month old will go all ECQC on him. Wrestling with my boys things happen, falling off the couch, getting jump on by one to have the other come flying in from somewhere, getting upside down, etc. Col Cooper created 4 rules.

Exactly. Shit happens and I have seen some weird stuff in my life, this seems like a valid concern to me.

[Cookie Monster]

Exactly. Shit happens and I have seen some weird stuff in my life, this seems like a valid concern to me.

Last Christmas, over at a friends house, one of my boys put his hands full on a glass fireplace, full palm 2nd degree. Mama was a 1/2 step behind. Trips to the burn center and a bunch of therapy later and all is fine but ya the universe will find the hole in the Swiss cheese and give you some learning.

Toddlers will blow your mind on a weekly basis on what they can pull off.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Whenever I think of low probability events, I tell this story. I was in a class and the instructor said that XYZ was as likely as being hit by lightning or being in an airliner crash. Well, I've been hit by lightning. A friend was in a DC-8, IIRC, that ran out gas and came down in a forest. He and his wife had their baby with them. The stewardess said they would move the baby to the front as that was the safest part in event of a crash. They passed on that and kept the babiy with them in the back. 30 folks in the front died. The three of them made it.

About your little one going ECQC on you - my toddler little girl hooked on to my collar bone with her little sharp teeth like Infant Lady Dracula. So what techniques are you going to use on your kid when they go for gun?

[Peally]

If if if if if if if... just be safe.

[BobLoblaw]

Might be stepping in for the OP but I think he is thinking about that low probability mistake or thing that just happens. I doubt his 18 month old will go all ECQC on him. Wrestling with my boys things happen, falling off the couch, getting jump on by one to have the other come flying in from somewhere, getting upside down, etc. I don’t have the skills to guarantee that I would absolutely 100% retain the firearm, but I make the choice to throw in the safe.

The consequences of a bad outcome are horrific. I am enjoying the discussion as well.

I made the recommendation because when things happen with leather holsters, you have a better chance of retaining the firearm due to friction. With plastic holsters, the gun pops in and out so it’s either locked in or your retention is gravity.

ETA: I reread my post and it does kinda seem like I was saying his kid’s mission is disarming him. I assumed he was worried about playing with his kid and his gun ending up on the floor then the kid firing it before he could grab it. Others added that their kids were curious about the gun (grabbing and hitting it) so I addressed that as well.

[gtae07]

Toddlers will blow your mind on a weekly basis on what they can pull off.

Ain't that the truth.


Right now I carry IWB about 3:30 in a hybrid holster. If it's not on me, it's locked up. He hasn't gotten close to hitting it or getting it out yet.

But, I also don't carry around the house all day.

Reading the other comments here for when he gets older...

[Bodhi]

I’d buy a PX4 compact. You can buy it, shoot it and carry it. Once the child is old enough to you, it can be converted to decock only, or type “G”.

[Baldanders]

I have 2 grandkids, and I teach high school.

All guns (aside from the 12 gauge that hangs on the living room wall, no ammo around or in it) are behind locked doors while the little ones are at the house. I plan to keep it that way until they are old enough to learn how to shoot-- and even then, I will need some time to believe they have the safety fundamentals ingrained as devout religious belief.

I had a "I didn't know it was loaded" ND at age 15 while my parents were away out of town which resulted in a .22 going into a bookcase. Thank god it wasn't any worse. Handy story to tell my stepkids when I introduced them to firearms.

You can't be too careful.

[breakingtime91]

Re-discussed this with my wife and family over the past couple of days. Number one thing is to always have guns not on me locked away, ensure that I have a tight retention on my holster, and educate him as much and as fast as possible. I am not sure, after discussing this with multiple people, how much a platform change or added features would alleviate my worries. For that reason I am glad I haven't made a rushed decision but instead had something in the safe (shield with TS) that I felt comfortable with while I worked through this feeling/worry.

[jwperry]

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who went through all the same discussions and had the same aversions (no strollers!) as other folks..

I also went through all the same thoughts and concerns when my son was born. Switched from SFA guns to 1911s for the exact reasons you thought of. He'd frequently pick-pocket my flashlight and tried for my knife a few times. Keys were always gone from my pocket.

Things I did to mitigate issues with him:
-I did not perform administrative handling around him. I didn't want him to think that it was "daddy's toy".
-I did not leave any loaded guns off my body or outside of the locked safe(tumbler setup, no way to open by pushing buttons).
-My wife moved from off-body carry(her purse) to on-body carry...now she hardly carries(this is me rolling my eyes).

Things I learned:
-He still knew that I had *something* under my shirt that he wanted to see/touch/playwith. This always became an issue in public....
-Kids can still pull the trigger on a 1911. I remember reading somewhere on here that a LEO had found more than 1 child with a self inflicted gunshot wound because they point the guns into their chests, grasp with both hands and pull the trigger, which would mitigate nearly all the safety systems on a 1911.
-1911s get heavy when lugging kids around.

Where I'm at now:
-My son is now 5 1/2 and my daughter is 18 months...and at the same phase in her life when the wife and I had our "OMG we have to do something with the guns!!! phase". My son is curious about guns, but we're keeping same same practices of no lose guns around the house. He "helps" me clean and do maintenance on my pistols...but mostly on cleaning the WML that I keep on my HD Sig. We switched to DA/SA guns, but not due to child safety concerns. Him being involved with spring maintenance and cleaning the flashlight appeases his curiosity to the guns, allows him to be (what he feels) is hands on. We've gone over safety and what to do with guns and around guns. He never tattles, but came and told on a friend of his for handling a rifle (which was a BB gun), so I know those lessons have sunken in.
-I've switched to what BobLoblaw mentioned; a low riding leather holster for EDC. I carry either a full size or compact pistol. I find this to be a great compromise between comfort/concealment and accessibility.
-I've been dabbling back with plastic SFA pistols in kydex holsters since we're doing more outdoors activities (best time of the year in FL!).

Hope that helps.