The Reckoning: Sexual Harassment

[Chance]

Charlie Rose today (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42060961). Let's see... Oliver Stone, Jeffrey Tambor, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Louis C.K., Roy "That Would Have Been Out of My Customary Behavior" Moore, Kevin Spacey, Al Franken, Brett Ratner, Andy Dick (...seriously, how is Andy Dick still walking around a free man?), and plenty more (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/10/us/men-accused-sexual-misconduct-weinstein.html).

I'm a little ambivalent, as I've seen false accusations first-hand and I think it's prudent to take accusations with respectful skepticism. But with all of the above mentioned, my first reaction has been, "Yeah, I can totally see him doing that."

Thoughts?

[Ichiban]

I view the current situation like an animal caught in a leg trap:

The animal (DNC/MSM) is chewing its own leg off (sacrificing its own members) to get out of a trap (Trump presidency).
They think that this will give them the moral authority to go after Trump on harassment charges.

I don't think for one second that they give a crap about any individual harassment by their elites but they view it as a tool to use against Trump if they can get the public to buy the false outrage.

YMMV.

[Chance]

The animal (DNC/MSM) is chewing its own leg off (sacrificing its own members) to get out of a trap (Trump presidency).

I've seen nothing to indicate this is an anti-Trump political maneuver. Plenty of people on both sides of the aisle are getting accused, and it's not as if Trump needs help getting people to hate him.

[Ichiban]

I've seen nothing to indicate this is an anti-Trump political maneuver. Plenty of people on both sides of the aisle are getting accused, and it's not as if Trump needs help getting people to hate him.

Maybe not but I don't see too many names on your list that are associated with the Rs.
Maybe they are just cleaning house now that they don't have to protect Slick Willie anymore.
I just worry that they are going to end up conflating harassment with assault and end up degrading the seriousness of the later.

[blues]

I'm hoping some powerful women will be outed soon so that we can all get back to business as usual.

As I mentioned to my wife, outside of an attempted or successful forceful violation, the injured party should just kick the offender (if a man) in the nuts, give him a smack in the chops and get on with it. (Report the matter to employer if it's work related.)

I'm being somewhat facetious but this daily "me too" finger pointing and sniveling (in regard to some more trivial issues being reported) seems to detract from the attention needed regarding (sexual) misconduct of a significantly higher order.

[okie john]

Charlie Rose today (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42060961). Let's see... Oliver Stone, Jeffrey Tambor, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Louis C.K., Roy "That Would Have Been Out of My Customary Behavior" Moore, Kevin Spacey, Al Franken, Brett Ratner, Andy Dick (...seriously, how is Andy Dick still walking around a free man?), and plenty more (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/10/us/men-accused-sexual-misconduct-weinstein.html).

I'm a little ambivalent, as I've seen false accusations first-hand and I think it's prudent to take accusations with respectful skepticism. But with all of the above mentioned, my first reaction has been, "Yeah, I can totally see him doing that."

Thoughts?

I think you left Bill Clinton off of the list.


Okie John

[RoyGBiv]

I'm enjoying this particular circus. Limitless schadenfreude.

Still.... If Hillary doesn't go to prison for espionage, I'll know this country is truly, thoroughly, fucked.

[Chance]

I think you left Bill Clinton off of the list.

I was focusing on recent accusations. Unfortunately, H.W. Bush is on the list as well, and probably the only one I was sad to see added.

I do want to see Bill get his day though, along with all the "feminists" who stuck up for him when the shit hit the fan.


I'm hoping some powerful women will be outed soon so that we can all get back to business as usual.

I'm sure it's coming at some point. I think most of this is as much of a power dynamic thing as it is related to sex. Terry Crews already mentioned one such incident, but refused to name who was involved.


As I mentioned to my wife, outside of an attempted or successful forceful violation, the injured party should just kick the offender (if a man) in the nuts, give him a smack in the chops and get on with it. (Report the matter to employer if it's work related.)

I agree on the swift kick in the balls, but I think that's an oversimplification. Back when I was young and pretty I was actually harassed by my immediate supervisor at one point: train wreck of an older woman and it still gives me the creeps. It's not a situation that easily navigable, and that's when I didn't have to fear for my safety.

[blues]

I agree on the swift kick in the balls, but I think that's an oversimplification. Back when I was young and pretty I was actually harassed by my immediate supervisor at one point: train wreck of an older woman and it still gives me the creeps. It's not a situation that easily navigable, and that's when I didn't have to fear for my safety.

I did say I was being "somewhat facetious" in that post...

[RoyGBiv]

Powerful Dem Rep. John Conyers hit by report on sexual conduct with ex-staffers (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/11/21/powerful-dem-rep-john-conyers-hit-by-report-on-sexual-conduct-with-ex-staffers.html)

http://advrider.com/styles/advrider_smilies/ImaPoser.gif

[Peally]

I think it's a massive circle jerk of morons.

Tom Jones molested me 20 years ago!

[blues]

I think it's a massive circle jerk of morons.

Tom Jones molested me 20 years ago!

Apparently you're not alone...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQehPyWOCD7_gvg0ehjcsgoUPG0l2i3s Kt891UHl831z0__Q6i06A

[peterb]

A more balanced view:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-young-weinsteining-goes-too-far-20171101-story.html

[gringop]

I think it's a massive circle jerk of morons.

Tom Jones molested me 20 years ago!

Eh, it's not unusual.

Gringgop

[blues]

Eh, it's not unusual.

Gringgop

Why, why, why, Delilah? :rolleyes:

[Guerrero]

I think it's a massive circle jerk of morons.

Tom Jones molested me 20 years ago!What's new, pussycat?

[Dagga Boy]

Powerful Dem Rep. John Conyers hit by report on sexual conduct with ex-staffers (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/11/21/powerful-dem-rep-john-conyers-hit-by-report-on-sexual-conduct-with-ex-staffers.html)

http://advrider.com/styles/advrider_smilies/ImaPoser.gif

You have no idea the joy I felt when this came out. What a sanctimonious hypocrite. I detest him.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.

On one hand, there are clearly lots of instances of workplace harassment, intimidation and violence which went unpunished, and the victims have every right to seek redress.

I'm not sure whether I think there is meaning in specifically identifying it as "sexual" harassment, intimidation, and violence. On one hand, we do as a society traditionally make that distinction; sexual assault is a separate crime from assault in every western nation I can think of.

On the other hand, it restricts the pool of likely victims and perpetrators in a really specific way. It also means that everyone who was intimidated or harassed or threatened, in situations where that was likely because massive power imbalances are the rule and not the exception, is going to get left out in the cold by this particular cleansing.

It also poses the problem of whether unsupported accusations are sufficient to destroy a career etc.

This ties in, in a very uncomfortable way in my opinion, with the whole "believe her" theme that runs through sexual assault cases in general, in which people are encouraged to uncritically accept accusations by women, against men.



So I find the issue complex and troubling. On one hand there's obvious creeps engaged in criminal and despicable behaviour and lots of that is finally coming to light after they protected themselves for years or decades with wealth and/or the support of business or political or personal allies.

On the other hand, we're seeing a feeding frenzy of highly gendered accusations and punishments and that kind of atmosphere strikes me as highly prone to abuse - in particular my experience is that there is a large wing of the feminist movement which absolutely cannot be trusted with unfettered power, and in a sense that's what this looks to be very rapidly developing in to.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[luckyman]

A more balanced view:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-young-weinsteining-goes-too-far-20171101-story.html

When the LA times is the voice of reason you know the targets of accusations must be democrats.

[okie john]

I do want to see Bill get his day though, along with all the "feminists" who stuck up for him when the shit hit the fan.

Early Christmas present for you: https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/ff26524c-7dc0-35bd-96d5-60c65271e833/ss_the-clintons-held-the.html WaPo is also getting in on the action, but it's behind a paywall and I'm not giving those fuckers a dime.


Back when I was young and pretty I was actually harassed by my immediate supervisor at one point: train wreck of an older woman and it still gives me the creeps. It's not a situation that easily navigable, and that's when I didn't have to fear for my safety.

Same thing happened to me. Not as much fun as the jokesters think it would be.


Okie John

[RevolverRob]

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.

On one hand, there are clearly lots of instances of workplace harassment, intimidation and violence which went unpunished, and the victims have every right to seek redress.

I'm not sure whether I think there is meaning in specifically identifying it as "sexual" harassment, intimidation, and violence. On one hand, we do as a society traditionally make that distinction; sexual assault is a separate crime from assault in every western nation I can think of.

I agree and while I find value in this distinction your next point is quite accurate...


On the other hand, it restricts the pool of likely victims and perpetrators in a really specific way. It also means that everyone who was intimidated or harassed or threatened, in situations where that was likely because massive power imbalances are the rule and not the exception, is going to get left out in the cold by this particular cleansing.

I think this is one of the most critical insights of this particular "Reckoning". Which is that in nearly all instances it is a large power imbalance between the harasser and the harassed. It's clear in the case of some individuals (Weinstein for example) that power has been frequently used to cover up or outright manipulate people in addition to those who were the direct victims of abuse. And as near as we can tell, there is almost no recourse for those victims.

Although I caution to be careful, because there could be accomplices masquerading as victims. At some point individuals must draw a moral line.


It also poses the problem of whether unsupported accusations are sufficient to destroy a career etc.

This ties in, in a very uncomfortable way in my opinion, with the whole "believe her" theme that runs through sexual assault cases in general, in which people are encouraged to uncritically accept accusations by women, against men.

So I find the issue complex and troubling. On one hand there's obvious creeps engaged in criminal and despicable behaviour and lots of that is finally coming to light after they protected themselves for years or decades with wealth and/or the support of business or political or personal allies.

On the other hand, we're seeing a feeding frenzy of highly gendered accusations and punishments and that kind of atmosphere strikes me as highly prone to abuse - in particular my experience is that there is a large wing of the feminist movement which absolutely cannot be trusted with unfettered power, and in a sense that's what this looks to be very rapidly developing in to.

The last point is really the most depressing aspect. As "powerful" leaders and well-respected people are taken done by this frenzy (as you so rightly call it); I have personally witnessed the results. While, I'm not one to suggest that women should not be empowered to confront abusers, nor should they have to tolerate abuse, I've seen some pretty nasty things happen recently. One incident, a colleague of mine made a "Me too" post on Facebook, and a "friend" of her's wrote an impolite (but not abusive or even directed at her response). In retaliation my colleague utilized access to a set of foaming feminists friends and peers to actually harass her "friend" by quoting his commentary and sending it to his employer, particularly his supervisors and HR...essentially creating a smear campaign against this individual.

She was utterly over the line in her response and fortunately for her "friend" he is friends with good attorneys who rapidly sent her a cease and desist notice and nipped this in the bud. None-the-less given the current political climate, she is convinced that she is morally in the right and should have the legal right to ruin this guy's life. Even though, he, as far as I know, never actually did anything to harass her.

This type of unfettered unchecked environment is inane.

Personally, I avoid these problems by following a strict set of professional rules - 1) Never be alone with a female colleague or student behind closed doors. 2) Keep my fucking mouth shut and don't say inflammatory things in public venues and/or social media. 3) Always report instances of things where I feel impropriety could have unintentionally occurred and get everything documented to address anything after the fact (fortunately, this almost never happens).

Oh yea and rule 4) Don't be fucking scumbag.

[Guinnessman]

Apparently you're not alone...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQehPyWOCD7_gvg0ehjcsgoUPG0l2i3s Kt891UHl831z0__Q6i06A

What's going to happen to the forum! I kid......I kid:p

[TAZ]

The whole sexual harassment thing is going to get out of hand. As with others I fear that the cry wolf mentality will eventually set in and cases where actual abuse will be ignored. Not a good thing. I’m not sure what the solution to the problem is though. There is going to need to be some reckoning when it comes to giving false accusers a free pass.

[Peally]

We're already well into cry wolf territory. My instant reaction to any decades old harassment claims in the news is "show proof or shut up".

[Joe in PNG]

We're already well into cry wolf territory. My instant reaction to any decades old harassment claims in the news is "show proof or shut up".

Yes and no. It may very well be the bandwagon effect for some claims; then again, it may very well be that the reason some claims are coming out is because the victim was of the mind that no one would believe them. Only now, with others coming forward, are people willing to listen.

[RoyGBiv]

On the other hand, it restricts the pool of likely victims and perpetrators in a really specific way. It also means that everyone who was intimidated or harassed or threatened, in situations where that was likely because massive power imbalances are the rule and not the exception, is going to get left out in the cold by this particular cleansing.



The whole sexual harassment thing is going to get out of hand. As with others I fear that the cry wolf mentality will eventually set in and cases where actual abuse will be ignored. Not a good thing. I’m not sure what the solution to the problem is though. There is going to need to be some reckoning when it comes to giving false accusers a free pass.
As with every media frenzy, this will burn out in time and hopefully only the real bad nuts will get shaken from the tree. For the moment, it seems mostly "D's" + Roy Moore.

o̶c̶c̶u̶p̶y̶ ̶_̶_̶_̶_̶_̶
h̶a̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶u̶p̶, ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶o̶t̶ ̶
n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶r̶u̶m̶p̶
w̶o̶r̶d̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶b̶u̶l̶l̶e̶t̶s̶
w̶h̶i̶t̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶i̶v̶i̶l̶e̶g̶e̶ ̶
believe every accuser

Can't get this song out of my head today...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/08/8e/12/088e12198cb5fe53198b6bc4f58df4ac.jpg

[NEPAKevin]

The whole sexual harassment thing is going to get out of hand. As with others I fear that the cry wolf mentality will eventually set in and cases where actual abuse will be ignored. Not a good thing. I’m not sure what the solution to the problem is though. There is going to need to be some reckoning when it comes to giving false accusers a free pass.

That's more or less what I recall happened after the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearings where the Feminazis tried to lower the bar to the point of institutional emasculation of anyone with a job and a penis. OTOH, I'm pretty sure coerced sex, physical assault and rape have always been criminal offences for my adult life. I am however some what skeptical of the timing of some of the accusations and the subsequent piling on being perceived as proof with out due process.

[Peally]

Yes and no. It may very well be the bandwagon effect for some claims; then again, it may very well be that the reason some claims are coming out is because the victim was of the mind that no one would believe them. Only now, with others coming forward, are people willing to listen.

Could be, but unless there's actual proof beyond one person's claim against another's I'll doubt it by default.

[Joe in PNG]

Could be, but unless there's actual proof beyond one person's claim against another's I'll doubt it by default.

What kind of proof? Let's say Billy finds Sue the intern alone making copies. He snuggles up close behind her, and starts making suggestive statements.
How does Sue prove anything if no one else saw it?

[blues]

I've had unwanted advances from women at various times in my life...but I was only "molested" once.

Once, while riding the subway in a packed car I was standing next to the pole in the center with a number of folks, just hanging on as the train made it's way into Manhattan.

I felt a hand very gently brush my, ahem, privates and quickly looked up and around to see if I could figure out who was going to get decked...

...Next thing I know I see a very attractive twenty-something woman on the other side of the pole giving me a knowing look with a coy smile. I was so taken aback at the time I didn't know whether to ask for her number or quite what I wanted to say. I've often wondered what might have happened had I pursued the matter.

Glenn Close "I'm not gonna be ignored" bat shit crazy...or "Last Tango in Paris" anonymous adventure.

Too late now...but I'll never forget that subway ride.

[Guerrero]

Too late now...but I'll never forget that subway ride.

It's the big, floppy ears and brown eyes; chicks dig those.

[Peally]

What kind of proof? Let's say Billy finds Sue the intern alone making copies. He snuggles up close behind her, and starts making suggestive statements.
How does Sue prove anything if no one else saw it?

Bummer? I can't successfully claim Bob Dole bitch slapped me in the woods and pissed on my leg either, whether it actually happened or not. I don't instantly assume some random ass person's claim against some other random ass person is right, regardless of the genders involved. Maybe I can if I get enough public anger rolling, but I'd rather not even bother unless it's one hell of a crime.

If there's a legitimate way for law enforcement to prove through logic/evidence/whatever that someone committed a crime I'm all for throwing the book at criminal scumbags. Anything else is at best an honest hopeful attempt to garner support, at worst shit slinging and witch hunts. I'm not picking sides based on hunches.

[Peally]

...Next thing I know I see a very attractive twenty-something woman on the other side of the pole giving me a knowing look with a coy smile. I was so taken aback at the time I didn't know whether to ask for her number or quite what I wanted to say. I've often wondered what might have happened had I pursued the matter.

I think the "the hell?" natural reaction burns too much time to take advantage for normal people. You probably missed out on a killer case of crabs :D

[Joe in PNG]

Bummer? I can't successfully claim Bob Dole bitch slapped me in the woods and pissed on my leg either, whether it actually happened or not. I don't instantly assume some random ass person's claim against some other random ass person is right, regardless of the genders involved. Maybe I can if I get enough public anger rolling, but I'd rather not even bother unless it's one hell of a crime.

If there's a legitimate way for law enforcement to prove through logic/evidence/whatever that someone committed a crime I'm all for throwing the book at criminal scumbags. Anything else is at best an honest hopeful attempt to garner support, at worst shit slinging and witch hunts. I'm not picking sides based on hunches.

One of the ways you nail the scumbag is to establish a pattern. If Jill, Ellen, and Jane have also been touched and creeped on by Bill, then you may have a pattern here.
Which is why you try to get people to come forward.

[hufnagel]

I'n not convinced on Roy Moore.

[RJ]

I think to borrow a meme, I am glad the stupid shit I did when I was young was before the advent of smart phones and social media. :cool:

On topic, I am glad all this crap is coming out, on either side.

I think it’s a healthy catharsis for the country to get “the truth” out there. While yes, it’s possible there will be some cries of Wolf! I think in the main that it’s far far better to get to the bottom of whatever happened.

More specifically, I think Judge Moore spent a lot of his youth chasing cheerleaders. I listened to his early interviews and they just frankly were creepy AF. “I never dated anyone without getting the mother’s permission.” I mean, wtf?

I think if he’d a come clean, and said, “hey, I was a player and might have done some stupid stuff (didn’t we all?)”. But he didn’t. Today he doubled down with his lawyers and their rebuttal of the various stories. Not sure I’m convinced. We’ll see in a few weeks.

We live in interesting times.

[blues]

It's the big, floppy ears and brown eyes; chicks dig those.

Don't forget the long tail...

[hufnagel]

I think to borrow a meme, I am glad the stupid shit I did when I was young was before the advent of smart phones and social media. :cool:

On topic, I am glad all this crap is coming out, on either side.

I think it’s a healthy catharsis for the country to get “the truth” out there. While yes, it’s possible there will be some cries of Wolf! I think in the main that it’s far far better to get to the bottom of whatever happened.

More specifically, I think Judge Moore spent a lot of his youth chasing cheerleaders. I listened to his early interviews and they just frankly were creepy AF. “I never dated anyone without getting the mother’s permission.” I mean, wtf?

I think if he’d a come clean, and said, “hey, I was a player and might have done some stupid stuff (didn’t we all?)”. But he didn’t. Today he doubled down with his lawyers and their rebuttal of the various stories. Not sure I’m convinced. We’ll see in a few weeks.

We live in interesting times.

Within a society with people who can self-introspect and nod their heads in any form agreement, then yes that would be the preferred approach. We don't live in that society now.

I still think a legal statute of limitation should apply, as well as a moral one, but you can't police or enforce morals.

[Jeep]

You have no idea the joy I felt when this came out. What a sanctimonious hypocrite. I detest him.

To be fair, he did serve in the Korean War. And he must be close to 90.

Which is all I can say in his favor. He is a lying sanctimonious hypocrite who has played the race card his entire career and always from the bottom of the deck. Someone who has spent most of his career making race problems worse while receiving awards from virtue-signaling groups for making those problems better.

[okie john]

We're already well into cry wolf territory. My instant reaction to any decades old harassment claims in the news is "show proof or shut up".

Probably so, but it will take the equivalent of the Duke Rape Case to change the prevailing mood. I think that some men will see potentially very lucrative careers destroyed. The guilty men can go fuck themselves, but some of the innocent ones will hire flesh-eating attorneys to go after their false accusers, which is as it should be. The press and popular culture will disapprove for a while, then get distracted by the next shiny object while these guys are making case law.


Okie John

[blues]

http://rackjite.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/518iiic.jpg

[Dagga Boy]

My response to every single accusation leveled at me at work over the years was simple....let’s do the box (polygraph) right now....both parties. Want to know how many times I actually had to take a poly....zero. It was funny how if you demanded a polygraph how much crap went away. I am not seeing much of this in these cases. I am sure a nunber of these are political and made up or exaggerated, but a simple polygraph for everyone would sure help in separating fact from fiction.

[blues]

My response to every single accusation leveled at me at work over the years was simple....let’s do the box (polygraph) right now....both parties. Want to know how many times I actually had to take a poly....zero. It was funny how if you demanded a polygraph how much crap went away. I am not seeing much of this in these cases. I am sure a nunber of these are political and made up or exaggerated, but a simple polygraph for everyone would sure help in separating fact from fiction.

Maybe. I learned first hand that they are not something I'd want to stake my reputation or freedom on. Once the genie is out of the bottle...it's tough to coax him back in again.

[Dagga Boy]

Maybe. I learned first hand that they are not something I'd want to stake my reputation or freedom on. Once the genie is out of the bottle...it's tough to coax him back in again.

That's why I insisted on both parties done immediately. Especially if I knew I was right. On a criminal thing, nope, and not admissible anyways. We poly everybody who is seriously looked at for hiring, and we had one in he station, so it was a simple solution for me on responding to those who liked to make up fairy tails.

The other key to that was being very good about admitting when I screwed up. Only points I ever got for vehicle damage I rat'd on myself.

[blues]

That's why I insisted on both parties done immediately. Especially if I knew I was right. On a criminal thing, nope, and not admissible anyways. We poly everybody who is seriously looked at for hiring, and we had one in he station, so it was a simple solution for me on responding to those who liked to make up fairy tails.

The other key to that was being very good about admitting when I screwed up. Only points I ever got for vehicle damage I rat'd on myself.

If only it were that simple. My former partner, an accomplished polygrapher for ATF and then Customs (before he put in a transfer to Deming, NM) polygraphed me at my request because I wanted to see what it was like to sit through an examination (and he needed to keep his machine calibrated and log training hours).

Anyway, long story short. I told him he could ask me anything, including personal matters.

After he examined the data and discussed the results he told me that some of the responses appeared to be deceptive. I assured him that every answer I provided was completely true, even though the answer may have been something I'd not have wanted to admit otherwise.

Bottom line? No polygraphs for this old boy. It's a worthwhile tool at times, we used them a lot back when I was still gainfully employed, but I'd as soon use the old Xerox trick or read tea leaves or chicken gizzards.

[JohnO]

Apparently you're not alone...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQehPyWOCD7_gvg0ehjcsgoUPG0l2i3s Kt891UHl831z0__Q6i06A

It's Not Unusual!

[Dagga Boy]

If only it were that simple. My former partner, an accomplished polygrapher for ATF and then Customs (before he put in a transfer to Deming, NM) polygraphed me at my request because I wanted to see what it was like to sit through an examination (and he needed to keep his machine calibrated and log training hours).

Anyway, long story short. I told him he could ask me anything, including personal matters.

After he examined the data and discussed the results he told me that some of the responses appeared to be deceptive. I assured him that every answer I provided was completely true, even though the answer may have been something I'd not have wanted to admit otherwise.

Bottom line? No polygraphs for this old boy. It's a worthwhile tool at times, we used them a lot back when I was still gainfully employed, but I'd as soon use the old Xerox trick or read tea leaves or chicken gizzards.

So you didn't have to take one before you got hired? We polygraphed everybody. Our examiners were very experienced that way and did a good job. We weeded out a lot of crap. Hit me on a PM and I ll give you some interesting info that came out of one.

[blues]

It's Not Unusual!

You're late... (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28621-The-Reckoning-Sexual-Harassment&p=676069&viewfull=1#post676069)

[blues]

So you didn't have to take one before you got hired? We polygraphed everybody. Our examiners were very experienced that way and did a good job. We weeded out a lot of crap. Hit me on a PM and I ll give you some interesting info that came out of one.

Yesterday was the 40th anniversary of when I started working for "Uncle". Never had to take one during my 27 years working for the federal gov't though I (stupidly) volunteered to do so numerous times over that period. (Had I known that an honest response to a question could be so grossly misinterpreted I'd never have done so.) Live and learn.

[JohnO]

You're late... (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28621-The-Reckoning-Sexual-Harassment&p=676069&viewfull=1#post676069)

Ah yes, I see now. (I have an excuse.) I just finished driving 6 female college freshman including my daughter 500 miles home for Thanksgiving. With ZERO allegations of harassment! 500 out yesterday and 500 back today. Time to relax.

[peterb]

Yes, some of the current commentary is overblown, and yes, some of it may be political. But a lot of women have to put up with crap that men rarely think about.

I thought this was an interesting perspective from an educator who does a lot of campus talks:

“I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other. Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.'
Then I ask women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine. Here are some of their answers: Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”
― Jackson Katz

[andre3k]

My first week as a rookie officer, I was checking something on the computer and a older female officer calmly puts her hand on my shoulder and sticks her tongue down my ear. Granted, she was well past her prime and probably wanted some attention from a young rook but I wasn't traumatized by it. I just glanced back at her and we both kept it moving.

About two months later I had a female FTO (smoking hot BTW) that grabbed my ass during a call. Both of these were one time events. Just women that put it out there that more was available if needed. Luckily, I had better judgment and passed on both. No trauma, No issues, I don't have nightmares about this stuff. If it was something worth dealing with I would have handled it then but I honestly, they were non-events.

So put me in the group as being sexually harassed as well.

[Drang]

There was this company commander...

People in positions of power and authority frequently succumb to the temptations that follow.
For men, that temptation frequently manifests as women who are willing to ensure the boss is satisfied. Unfortunately, some men come to take it for granted that this is right and proper and their due.
Women in positions of authority... Turn into Hilary Clinton. By which I mean entitled, petty harridans that make everyone's life sheer hell, and wonder why they have such high turnover. Assuming they even notice all those little people leaving...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Yes, some of the current commentary is overblown, and yes, some of it may be political. But a lot of women have to put up with crap that men rarely think about.

I thought this was an interesting perspective from an educator who does a lot of campus talks:

“I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other. Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.'
Then I ask women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine. Here are some of their answers: Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”
― Jackson KatzI don't disagree with this but it's also worth considering that it's mostly theoretical worst-case scenario stuff...the overwhelming majority of which either applies, or has some approximate equivalent, to men getting beaten up, and personally if I added up all the women I know who've been sexually assaulted in a manner that caused them actually physical harm, I wouldn't even be vaguely approaching the numberof guys I know who have been physically injured in an assault.

This may vary by region but I assure you that my wife would consider most of the steps described above to be borderline crazy. Her rules for avoiding sexual assault are things like "don't get falling-down drunk by yourself in a bar and take the train home". Essentially they boil down to "don't make yourself a screamingly obviously target."

I, however, have countless rules about who I can make eye contact with, how I can pass people in the street, what time I need to leave a bar, how many guys can be in a group before it gets dangerous, and so on. I have those rules because I've been assaulted, and because I've seen other guys assaulted more times than I could possibly individually describe. I think I've seen maybe three girl fights; maybe five tops.

Men generally don't worry about sexual assault because that's not the type of assault they're usually targeted with. But they're often targets of assault. I think if you asked a group of young men "how do you make sure you'll never get beaten up?" you could end up with a really long list of behaviors to engage in or avoid, and I think the only reasons you might not are that most young guys don't like to admit they fear fistfights, and men tend to be less inclined to verbalize their thoughts.

But I personally believe men are much more likely to be targets of non-domestic violence.

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[Sensei]

Nevermind.

[Olim9]

Ah yes, I see now. (I have an excuse.) I just finished driving 6 female college freshman including my daughter 500 miles home for Thanksgiving. With ZERO allegations of harassment! 500 out yesterday and 500 back today. Time to relax.

Reminded me of this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa5kQbUl5_o

[Paul D]

I have 20 employees in my office (only 2 are men). I am one of the medical directors in my hospital and I supervise over 80 nurses and techs (mostly women). From day 1, I did the following:

1) I never hug or touch (beyond a handshake) anybody.
2) I never do anything social with any work subordinates. I've reprimanded one of my single partners for holding a house party and having women from the hospital show up.
3) I never comment on a woman's (or man"s) look, dress (unless unprofessional/not to code), or attractiveness...even if they ask.
4) Be respectful, collegial, and professional.
5) I am nice and polite but everybody knows that as the HMFIC: I don't play games.

How hard is that do?!?! Six months, we had a cut a male nurse loose because he could stop making sexual innuendos to other female nurses. Because of these rules, I truly believe these women I work with would defend me to the death if someone came after me.

[Joe in PNG]

I have 20 employees in my office (only 2 are men). I am one of the medical directors in my hospital and I supervise over 80 nurses and techs (mostly women). From day 1, I did the following:

1) I never hug or touch (beyond a handshake) anybody.
2) I never do anything social with any work subordinates. I've reprimanded one of my single partners for holding a house party and having women from the hospital show up.
3) I never comment on a woman's (or man"s) look, dress (unless unprofessional/not to code), or attractiveness...even if they ask.
4) Be respectful, collegial, and professional.
5) I am nice and polite but everybody knows that as the HMFIC: I don't play games.

How hard is that do?!?! Six months, we had a cut a male nurse loose because he could stop making sexual innuendos to other female nurses. Because of these rules, I truly believe these women I work with would defend me to the death if someone came after me.

For some dude, it is totally hard. They think because Bob can flirt with the ladies in the office, that it should only be fair if they can to. Even though they have no actual social skills, or ability to flirt without coming across as a creep, and smell like stale cheetos.

The Office Pool is not Your Dating Pool is one of those essential life lessons that should be taught, but often isn't.

[Totem Polar]

Total sidebar, but: one of the places that I consult for (higher ed) just had a dude that thought it was a good idea to send sexually explicit texts and (alleged) photos of his junk on FB PMs to his students, as well as invite them over to his place and try to get them drunk. Pretty cut and dried, one would think, no? Incredibly, the dean’s office and HR tried to sweep it under the rug. Only big-throw, above-the-fold type legal representation, along with reporters starting to nose around, finally got the place to jettison that predatory fuck.

Given this—among other life experiences—I have no problem seeing how many other industries would cover similar shit up for decades.

[Matt O]

Total sidebar, but: one of the places that I consult for (higher ed) just had a dude that thought it was a good idea to send sexually explicit texts and (alleged) photos of his junk on FB PMs to his students, as well as invite them over to his place and try to get them drunk. Pretty cut and dried, one would think, no? Incredibly, the dean’s office and HR tried to sweep it under the rug. Only big-throw, above-the-fold type legal representation, along with reporters starting to nose around, finally got the place to jettison that predatory fuck.

Given this—among other life experiences—I have no problem seeing how many other industries would cover similar shit up for decades.

Tenured?


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[peterb]

For some dude, it is totally hard. They think because Bob can flirt with the ladies in the office, that it should only be fair if they can to. Even though they have no actual social skills, or ability to flirt without coming across as a creep, and smell like stale cheetos.

The Office Pool is not Your Dating Pool is one of those essential life lessons that should be taught, but often isn't.

It is a good rule. But a nontrivial number of happily coupled couples will say they met at or through work, so telling everyone NEVER just isn't realistic.

The key word in harassment is "unwanted". The problem is that too many jerks think they're irresistible, or that their power/influence/position makes them so.

Some are predatory assholes. Some are just clueless. Others seem to think they're the hero in a "she's perfect for him but doesn't know it" romantic comedy. He's attracted! He pursues! She rejects him, over and over! They fight! He grabs her and kisses her! She pushes him away, then melts into his arms...

A better ending would be to kick him in the balls, pepper-spray him, and call 911.

Figuring out if someone really is attracted to you isn't always easy. Even nice, well-meaning folks get it wrong a lot, and shouldn't be demonized for an honest mistake. But mixing your professional and romantic life is a minefield and should be treated as such.

[Dagga Boy]

My mantra of “Don’t dip your pen in company ink” served me well over the years. I have seen very few workplace romances work out over the long term and a high ratio that turn into absolute nightmares at some point.

[blues]

(eh, nevermind...)

[Hambo]

But I personally believe men are much more likely to be targets of non-domestic violence.



Statistically that might be true but it's often because men bring it on themselves: slinging dope, drunken monkey dance, etc. It's also completely irrelevant to the discussion of sexual assault-sexual harrassment-unwanted groping of women.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Statistically that might be true but it's often because men bring it on themselves: slinging dope, drunken monkey dance, etc. It's also completely irrelevant to the discussion of sexual assault-sexual harrassment-unwanted groping of women.I think it's pretty directly relevant to the thread of discussion that post is addressing.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[Totem Polar]

Tenured?


No. Incredibly, and thank god. Dude was actually hired (against the recommendations of search faculty and area heads; the subject matter community in question is a very tight one, and this dude’s rep had preceded him from another state) as an adjunct to replace a tenured guy who also got fired for inappropriate behavior. Astounding, really. Deal is, upper level admin was unhappy with the dept over what was essentially whistleblowing behavior, and dug in deep to defend their 3rd poor unilateral hire/retention in a row. They backed the wrong horse with their own reputations, pure and simple, and student’s legal representation, along with title IX, helped point that out.

I’m not going to go into more detail on an open forum, except to note that—due to my oddball area of expertise—I’ve been invited to teach for a half-dozen institutions in the wider region over the years (and will hopefully continue to guest, as opportunities present), and this did NOT happen at the well-known one in town that myself and several other P-F’ers are long associated with (just to cover against speculation, since a couple of my buddies here will probably see this thread and wonder). Frankly, most good schools treat both their students and their reputations far better, but history shows that it only takes a couple of assholes in select positions of power to create a similar situation anywhere, in any big organization.

[rob_s]

I rarely follow any "current events", but this topic has managed to land on my radar. Generally that means that a topic is pretty hot for me to even know it exists (I don't know shit about politics, sportsball, celebrities, etc.).

I find the whole thing disturbing on several levels.

The first is that it's pretty fucked up how many men apparently have done truly awful things to women like drugging them or otherwise forcing themselves on said women. I don't think this is a political issue either, as both sides seem to be equally guilty of it. Which brings me to...

The second is that I'm thoroughly disgusted at how both sides, and followers of both sides (including in this thread) are trying to turn it into a dem/repub, or liberal/conservative issue. This is not a political issue, it's a shitbag issue.

The third is that there seems to be a secondary tier of complaints wherein some women are taking advantage of the media attention on a real issue, waiting two decades to complain about being "harassed". I bet if it had been Harrison Ford "harassing" you 25 years ago instead of nasty-ass Weinstein we wouldn't be hearing a damn thing from you today.

The fourth is an extension of the third, and that is the length of time it's taken some of these folks to "come forward" with nothing more than harassment claims. Like it or not, people behaved differently 20 years ago, and even more differently 40 years ago. I've been in the construction management world for two decades and I can tell you that behaviors and attitudes have changed even for us. I don't think it's fair to hang a guy 30 years later for behavior that, while perhaps considered reprehensible today, was not all that uncommon or even known to be inappropriate at that time.

[fixer]

This problem has multiple variables.

This is what happens when "the worst 'get on top'". Reference our recent discussions on psychopath and sociopaths.
A large subset of humanity still has a thirst for control and enslavement of other humans. Whether it is a guy like Weinstein or the recent issue of slavery found in the ME.
Desperate people trying to make it in an industry that commoditizes skin and sex
Society whose values that have plummeted to the point where you can't sell a burger without tits and ass.(idiocracy)

Mix it all up and you get 'this'.

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy (I do have some) for the victims here.

[JRB]

A female friend of mine posted this on her Facebook:


https://youtu.be/HkEwUXD2cT8

As a guy, I can completely identify with what this dude is saying. Furthermore, It's my firm belief of that '1%' he's talking about (the guys that aggressively flirt with all/most of the attractive women they can) also contain a smaller percentage, which is the tiny handful of genuine creepy dickheads that get aggressively physical.

So when we are told 'one out of three women are assaulted in their lives' and such - IMHO there's been a very visible, if unspoken, assumption made that 1/3 of men are the sick/creepy/perverted assholes doing it.

The result has been a moral panic that gives any woman's claim against a man this immediate gravity of truth, even if it's profoundly unlikely and complete BS, because of this unconscious assumption of 1/3 of men are creepy jerks capable of that kind of behavior.
It'd be nice to see a media narrative that would acknowledge the vast majority of straight men are *NOT* the handful of creepy rapey filth that perpetuate the majority of the real assaults in this country. Or even acknowledge that two-thirds aren't a problem. The way some of these stories are told, particularly by left-leaning news sources, is happy to incriminate all of hetero mankind of engaging in this kind of behavior. It's really disappointing.

Even more disappointing is that as a hetero male Army NCO, I absolutely must avoid any possible situation where I would be alone with a female Soldier, especially a subordinate.

I've seen more than one investigation on a male NCO or Officer that was 100% fabricated BS, simply because a female subordinate wanted to get back at her superior for holding her accountable for her non-performance or for a serious failure she couldn't bat her eyelashes out of. The horrible result is that the male NCO/Officer's good name is never really restored after the investigation is done, and worse, that female subordinate almost never sees disciplinary action of any kind.

So we end up in his paradox where male NCO's and Officers are hesitant to discipline a female subordinate because they fear a possible reprisal that poses little if not zero risk to the female subordinate, but has a 100% chance of hurting their own career, if not destroying it. But more than half of the actual rape-victim sexual assaults that occur in the Army are male-on-male. Figure that one out.


In the end, I'd put a lot more gravity on someone's account of a perceived or real assault, if that individual would be facing some kind of reprisal if it was conclusively proven to be false.

[blues]

The government opened the floodgates to the elimination of common sense and the currently fashionable "moral outrage" complaint years ago and that boulder isn't going to stop rolling downhill anytime soon. When they invited folks to file complaints even if they weren't a party to the events, it just created a monster, throwing the doors open for finger pointers and self proclaimed SJWs.

For instance, a married female employee in my outfit who was awfully touchy, (on the arms etc), when she spoke with me, (and I can't say if this was the case with all the other guys in my group), had the gall to report me for discrimination or racism or whatever they decided to use as the basis for opening an investigation by IA...because of banter between me and another agent who was from the Middle East whom I jokingly told I couldn't use as an undercover on my case because "how could I know if he was a terrorist or not?"

They actually sent an investigator from IA down to interview my own squad as well as our management etc etc... and to a man all denied knowledge or that any event ever happened. Even the alleged victim said that we would have friendly banter but never any rancor or ill feelings. (Anyone who has worked in law enforcement knows that a squad room is a "hard hat" zone.)

Finally, after my own interviews were completed I was asked why the (Asian-American female) complainant had made her allegations.

I told the investigator that I was a married man and that she was awfully touchy-feely with me and since I never responded to her advances I figure she must've decided to get even for having her intentions rebuffed.

I had a letter of clearance within a few days and posted the document on the bulletin board for the lying POS to pass by as she went to and from her desk.

This and other spurious allegations became much more "normal" after the gov't decided to institute procedures which were willfully blind to the truth and common sense.

When we invite everyone to cry wolf, the true voice in need may ultimately get lost in the noise.

[Chance]

But a lot of women have to put up with crap that men rarely think about.

That's absolutely true. I didn't really get it either until the following happened, which I wrote about in the meme thread... for some reason:


I will admit, I was a little dubious towards women's claims of sexism for a long time. And then I had a certain experience....

About seven years ago, when I was in extremely good shape (we're talking 8% body fat, underwear model kind of shape), I was walking into the Walmart adjacent to Cowboy Stadium. I was walking into the entrance, and there was a guy, dressed head to toe in leather including a leather "captain's" hat, and he looked directly at me, stopped, and said, "Come here if you want to get that dick sucked."

It took about twenty seconds for what he said to dawn on me, and by that time, I had walked off. Not that I would have laid a hand on him, because he was probably a petri dish of STDs, but what he said left me feeling with a skin crawling, "Eeeeeeewwwwwww."

Women get this every day. And if you imagine young women being hit on by men old enough to be their father, it starts to sink in. Suffice it to say: respect people, and don't offer them oral sex until they've agreed to go on a date with you.

Women also experience fear (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22281210) differently than men.


Total sidebar, but: one of the places that I consult for (higher ed) just had a dude that thought it was a good idea to send sexually explicit texts and (alleged) photos of his junk on FB PMs to his students, as well as invite them over to his place and try to get them drunk. Pretty cut and dried, one would think, no?

Academia is a weird place in general, but they're especially weird when it comes to harassment issues. For instance, I was surprised to learn most universities do not disallow instructors to have relationships with students. The student can't be under the professor's direct supervision (e.g., can't be enrolled in a course or working on a thesis with that professor), but otherwise, it's fine.

On our annual compliance training, they posit a scenario where a male student and a female instructor had a flirty relationship in class. We have to correctly identify when they can actually start dating to pass the training.

On the one hand, I guess I get it: proximity and similarity are what lead to the vast majority of relationships, and any attempt to legislate human nature is doomed to fail. On the other hand, I don't get it at all: there's an authority and trust dynamic between teacher and student that's just too easy to exploit for those inclined to do so. Personally, I think that if a student is presently enrolled at the institution you teach at, fraternizing shouldn't get an official nod. That's just me.


Even more disappointing is that as a hetero male Army NCO, I absolutely must avoid any possible situation where I would be alone with a female Soldier, especially a subordinate.


That's a concern of mine as well. I did the math the other day: I had over 970 students this year. A non-trivial percentage did not / will not appreciate their grade. In fact, I'm about to bust a dozen grad students for cheating on their labs. An 'F' in grad school means you flunk out of grad school, and given that most of them are here on students visas, buh-bye.

All any one of them, male or female, would have to do to retaliate is make a harassment claim. The folks I work for have known me for many years and would believe me when I said the claim was a lie, but the University will still be (and appropriately so) obligated to investigate. I fully expect a false claim to be leveled in my direction at some point - it's just a matter of time.

[RevolverRob]

The Office Pool is not Your Dating Pool is one of those essential life lessons that should be taught, but often isn't.

No shit, right?

I feel like I have to tell my students/colleagues/peers almost every month when one of them says, "Oh SO-AND-SO is really attractive, I want to date them." That they need to get their head out of their ass and go find someone else to date.

In 10-years now in various research labs across the country, I've seen ONE intradepartmental/intradiscipline relationship work out, of at least 20 that I know of, only the one (and it's kind of questionable, I think both parties simply tolerate each other). It just never works...


Total sidebar, but: one of the places that I consult for (higher ed) just had a dude that thought it was a good idea to send sexually explicit texts and (alleged) photos of his junk on FB PMs to his students, as well as invite them over to his place and try to get them drunk. Pretty cut and dried, one would think, no? Incredibly, the dean’s office and HR tried to sweep it under the rug. Only big-throw, above-the-fold type legal representation, along with reporters starting to nose around, finally got the place to jettison that predatory fuck.

Given this—among other life experiences—I have no problem seeing how many other industries would cover similar shit up for decades.


No. Incredibly, and thank god. Dude was actually hired (against the recommendations of search faculty and area heads; the subject matter community in question is a very tight one, and this dude’s rep had preceded him from another state) as an adjunct to replace a tenured guy who also got fired for inappropriate behavior. Astounding, really. Deal is, upper level admin was unhappy with the dept over what was essentially whistleblowing behavior, and dug in deep to defend their 3rd poor unilateral hire/retention in a row. They backed the wrong horse with their own reputations, pure and simple, and student’s legal representation, along with title IX, helped point that out.

That is honestly not that far outside of what happened at my current institution. A faculty member left after allegations were made. The new hire had a history that was "investigated" by the hiring committee, but never made public, against the advice of the new hire's old employer, they hired him. Then were stunned 18-months later, when he badgered a drunken graduate student and effectively raped her at a departmental retreat (no charges were filed, because they were both drunk). It took the better part of 9-months to fire him...and even then he was actually allowed to resign...

All of this happened just before the NLRB ruled allowing graduate students to unionize. The university, with a lack of transparency and the complete refusal to allow graduate students to be part of the faculty disciplinary process shot itself in the fucking foot. Once the NLRB ruling came down; this was one of the early driving factors used to gather support for a union. Essentially to change the structure and allow greater control by graduate students on matters affecting them. Since the institution clearly gave very few fucks - we came together and now we're off to take the administration behind the woodshed...



When we invite everyone to cry wolf, the true voice in need may ultimately get lost in the noise.

Which is one reason, why I think it is imperative that we re-instill two core life lessons. 1) Don't shit where you eat. 2) Self reliance.

My wife has a very clear policy about sexual harassment that is not HR approved. It is, "Say whatever you want. If I don't like it, I'll tell you to fuck off. But if you touch me? Your hand is mine." In 10-years of being together, one coworker, one time jokingly grabbed her breast. She gave him a quick right cross that sent him home with a swollen and blackened eye. Her supervisor was right there and exercised some common sense as the punched employee turned to them, "She always made her policy clear...if you touch her, she'll beat you."

No one bothers or harasses her.

[blues]

My wife has a very clear policy about sexual harassment that is not HR approved. It is, "Say whatever you want. If I don't like it, I'll tell you to fuck off. But if you touch me? Your hand is mine." In 10-years of being together, one coworker, one time jokingly grabbed her breast. She gave him a quick right cross that sent him home with a swollen and blackened eye. Her supervisor was right there and exercised some common sense as the punched employee turned to them, "She always made her policy clear...if you touch her, she'll beat you."

No one bothers or harasses her.

If someone did that to my wife, after she was done with the miserable wretch I'd finish the job.

[JRB]

*snip*


Which is one reason, why I think it is imperative that we re-instill two core life lessons. 1) Don't shit where you eat. 2) Self reliance.

My wife has a very clear policy about sexual harassment that is not HR approved. It is, "Say whatever you want. If I don't like it, I'll tell you to fuck off. But if you touch me? Your hand is mine." In 10-years of being together, one coworker, one time jokingly grabbed her breast. She gave him a quick right cross that sent him home with a swollen and blackened eye. Her supervisor was right there and exercised some common sense as the punched employee turned to them, "She always made her policy clear...if you touch her, she'll beat you."

No one bothers or harasses her.

I dislike the general over-use of the word 'perfect' but that policy -and her effective implementation of that policy- is simply perfect!

[RevolverRob]

If someone did that to my wife, after she was done with the miserable wretch I'd finish the job.

My wife is probably meaner than me (depends on the scenario). I wasn't there and she wasn't really upset about it. The guy in question was a gay coworker and I am to believe he didn't intend to grab her breast, merely reach in the area (as Al Franken is learning this isn't ideal). He reached too far and she punched him mostly out of reflex than malice.

The one I can't stand and the one where I did something about it...Was a PI here at my institution (my wife is a Grants and Contracts Administrator for another division here), called her, "An unprofessional, worthless, pile of shit, who couldn't do her job right if her life depended on it." - After the PI made a mistake and missed a deadline and lost a chance at a million dollar grant. She was really quite upset about it. I figured out who the PI was and went to his office.

A calm discussion ensued, where I reminded said PI that grants and contract administrators are people. That they are sometimes the husbands/wives of people. Sometimes they are the wives of people who might review their grants or papers. And/or are the wives of people who have the political knowledge, ability, and will to make their lives a living hell. And that if said PI were as intelligent as his research and success suggested, that he act like an adult and apologize to G&A administrators and not be verbally abusive to them again, or said PIs would find themselves dealing with more than the frustration of missing grant deadlines. Also, that said PI might consider getting his fucking shit together and not waiting to the last minute to apply to grants.

Said PI didn't seem to care much for the subtle approach...right up until he realized that 3/4ths of my dissertation committee (and thus some of the people who's ears I have) sit on the editorial boards of the major STEM journals and NSF. Also he realized that I am the co-chair of an institutional committee that can make his life a living hell...and therefore I wasn't fucking bluffing...

Violence has a place, but so does politics...

[Matt O]

I disagree that office dating is an absolute no. I think one just has to be aware of the potential implications if it doesn't work out and use good judgement. Is it appropriate in most instances? No, probably not. But there are examples of how it's worked out just fine.

(My wife and I met at work. We later ended up in very separate careers, but still quite happily married almost 8 years later.)

[Totem Polar]

An interesting and more benign commonstance in my field is the whole “power couple" thing, where married people end up working together because one half gets hired on, and then folks figure out that the other half is also top notch. For example, my wife also ended up on faculty at two of the depts I teach at, because she is honestly the top person in the geographic area at her specific niche of work, and exposure to her—through her work with me—showed that to be pretty self-evident. As I’m typing, I’m counting up the married couples i personally know who are employed together in the same departments or arts organizations that quickly come to mind, and I’m up over a baker’s dozen, just off the top. The arts are totally like that.

None of the places I’ve ever taught for forbade professor-student relationships, but they sure as hell all forbid professor-their own student relationships, as well they should. Sexting, fondling, and heavy-handed propositioning your own advisees, majors and enrollees in your classes is no bueno; that’s not dating, that’s straight up predation.

Safest and least scandalous is professors dating grad students from different departments. Nobody gives a rip about that. I’ve got one friend who married a masters candidate decades his junior from a different dept; good work if you can find it.

One more quirk of guesting at several institutions: I’ve taken the exact same title IX online video training enough times now that I’m fairly sure I grasp the law as well as anyone not fully employed in some leg of enforcement/compliance.

[RevolverRob]

Safest and least scandalous is professors dating grad students from different departments. Nobody gives a rip about that.


This is perfectly fine. If folks want to date people at their own institution, that's one thing. It's the intradepartmental stuff that frequently causes problems.

I can think of quite a few "power couples" too and the most successful (and seemingly happiest) of them are where each individual was already an established independent, before coming together. Those relationships tend to last, because each entity is responsible for their own success. Couples that began as say, fellow graduate students, sometimes work, but I'm seeing as academia (at least in STEM) becomes more cutthroat, the animosity harbored by the "lesser" of the two within the couple often creates considerable friction.

My advice for students/peers is simple, "Don't date someone that is in your discipline/specialization/department. Outside of that? Don't be a scumbag."

[Totem Polar]

"... Don't be a scumbag."

I've long considered starting one of those mail order churches on this single tenet. It would be perfect for those that can’t quite make the "golden rule" work for them.

[TiroFijo]

Sexual predators everywhere...

Former USA Olympic gymnastics sports doctor Larry Nassar has pleaded guilty to seven charges of sexual assault against women and girls in his care

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42083977

Someone must had turned a blind eye...

[Peally]

Sexual predators everywhere...

Former USA Olympic gymnastics sports doctor Larry Nassar has pleaded guilty to seven charges of sexual assault against women and girls in his care

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42083977

Someone must had turned a blind eye...

I lol'd at the outrage Twitter insert. Sorry bud, he's still a doctor.

[Joe in PNG]

To expand on The Office Pool is Not Your Dating Pool:
A good match can happen. But it should happen despite one's best efforts- an almost Hollywood level of mutual attraction that leads to something long term.
Then again, what do you do if the relationship doesn't work out And you still got to see that person, day after day. And everyone is splitting into camps over who was right...

In the end, if a relationship happens, it happens. But if one is shopping for a date, best to look outside of work.

Funny enough, in my situation, dating inside the organization commonly uncommon- for us few singles over here. Every couple of years, two singles will become a couple, and get married.
Normally, we act with a hands-off, friendly politeness towards the opposite sex. However, we had one dude who had some serious marriage desperation going on- a not uncommon thing for single male missionaries over 30 on the field for the first time. He quickly turned off every single single female on the field- ladies can sense male desperation like a dog can sense fear, and it turns them flat off.

[Chance]

I lol'd at the outrage Twitter insert. Sorry bud, he's still a doctor.

I'm glad you managed to find humor in an article about a man that molested 125 children.

[RoyGBiv]

I disagree that office dating is an absolute no. I think one just has to be aware of the potential implications if it doesn't work out and use good judgement. Is it appropriate in most instances? No, probably not. But there are examples of how it's worked out just fine.

(My wife and I met at work. We later ended up in very separate careers, but still quite happily married almost 8 years later.)

I also met my wife at work. Married 20+ years. Left that employer, reluctantly, a few years into the marriage to avoid the financial risk of having both salaries coming from the same tech company. Wife is still there.

[Mjolnir]

When Joe Biden is sentenced to "Death by Dogging" let me know, please.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Paul D]

I also met my wife at work. Married 20+ years. Left that employer, reluctantly, a few years into the marriage to avoid the financial risk of having both salaries coming from the same tech company. Wife is still there.

I think you can grow a personal relationship at work as long as it is with your equal peer. A dishwasher can date a dishwasher, but when the dishwasher is dating the chef....

[Maple Syrup Actual]

insert "married a dishwasher" joke here

conceal dishwasher joke from dishwasher

insert self into dishwasher later






it's okay, I have tiger blood

[Peally]

I'm glad you managed to find humor in an article about a man that molested 125 children.

If I got upset about every single thing I read on the internet I'd kill myself.

Doesn't matter what he did, he's still a doctor by profession. It's like yelling "He's not an accountant he's a bastard!" like they're mutually exclusive.

[Totem Polar]

[stupid self-employment joke]My boss literally can't keep his hands off me.[/stupid self-employment joke]

I just LoL’d a little. Must be due to your off-beat sense of humour.

[hufnagel]

[stupid self-employment joke]My boss literally can't keep his hands off me.[/stupid self-employment joke]

Also self-employed, and I have assholes for employees. :D

[Chance]

John Conyers has resigned (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-42132174).

[hufnagel]

John Conyers has resigned (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-42132174).


The longest-serving member of the US Congress says he is stepping aside as top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee while sexual harassment allegations are investigated.

He's still a congressman though. not enough.

[blues]

If we have to throw out everyone in congress who has been sexually inappropriate with a page, a young boy, a young girl, a staff member, someone other than their spouse etc...I don't think there'd be enough folks on either side of the aisle to push any legislation through. (Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.)

I'm sure there are a lot of puckered assholes in D.C. hoping for someone else in Hollywood to carry the baton for a while...

[hufnagel]

If we have to throw out everyone in congress who has been sexually inappropriate with a page, a young boy, a young girl, a staff member, someone other than their spouse etc...I don't think there'd be enough folks on either side of the aisle to push any legislation through. (Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.)

I'm sure there are a lot of puckered assholes in D.C. hoping for someone else in Hollywood to carry the baton for a while...

Seriously... this would NOT be a bad thing!

"No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." -- Mark Twain

[OlongJohnson]

My strongest memory from touring the Senate when I was in eighth grade was some old guy coming around, introducing himself (man, I wish I remember who it was), giving a both-hands shoulder massage to the most attractive 14-year-old girl in the group, and brushing off our aghast looks by saying, "Oh, don't mind me, I'm just a dirty old man" before walking away. I do know it wasn't Clinton...

If I was an adult in charge of the group and that happened today, there'd be photos and the police called.

[Dagga Boy]

My strongest memory from touring the Senate when I was in eighth grade was some old guy coming around, introducing himself (man, I wish I remember who it was), giving a both-hands shoulder massage to the most attractive 14-year-old girl in the group, and brushing off our aghast looks by saying, "Oh, don't mind me, I'm just a dirty old man" before walking away. I do know it wasn't Clinton...

If I was an adult in charge of the group and that happened today, there'd be photos and the police called.

Probably Biden. That guy has been an overt creep for as long as anyone can remember and it just gets laughed off as “crazy Uncle Joe”. Some grown man gives my teen daughter a massage as a greeting and I would return that favor with the greeting I gave when called to deal with “Duster’s” back when that was a bit of a specialty of mine. I have to deal with this now because my kid plays volleyball. I ll usually be assigned with the team when they travel because girls Volleyball tournaments are a magnet for perv’s posing as “Model recruiters”. It s pretty disgusting stuff.

[Chance]

Probably Biden. That guy has been an overt creep for as long as anyone can remember and it just gets laughed off as “crazy Uncle Joe”.

It drives me nuts he gets a pass for that shit.

21971

21972

[45dotACP]

If we have to throw out everyone in congress who has been sexually inappropriate with a page, a young boy, a young girl, a staff member, someone other than their spouse etc...I don't think there'd be enough folks on either side of the aisle to push any legislation through. (Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.)

I'm sure there are a lot of puckered assholes in D.C. hoping for someone else in Hollywood to carry the baton for a while...I'm game. Holding our leaders to a higher standard is a worthwhile goal. Used to be our leaders were men of vision, or men of action yeah? Now all we get are these creepers.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Totem Polar]

No. Incredibly, and thank god. Dude was actually hired (against the recommendations of search faculty and area heads; the subject matter community in question is a very tight one, and this dude’s rep had preceded him from another state) as a temporary adjunct to replace a tenured guy who also got fired for inappropriate behavior. Astounding, really. Deal is, upper level admin was unhappy with the dept over what was essentially whistleblowing behavior, and dug in deep to defend their 3rd poor unilateral hire/retention in a row. They backed the wrong horse with their own reputations, pure and simple, and student’s legal representation, along with title IX, helped point that out.

I may as well post a quick update, for those who’s intellectual curiosity inclines them to see a lot just by looking. Two things hit my inbox over the Thanksgiving break (when everyone, including myself, was away). One: a note including info that the search to replace sext perv’s tenure-track position has been put off; meaning that the current emergency interim—who pretty much everyone on the ground (including me) besides immediate supervising admin wanted in the position anyways—will be there as a "fill in" for at least another academic year beyond this one going forward.

Also, the late 20s/early30s, fresh doctorate, quasi-sjw title IX director is gone without fanfare; we know this due to the announcement of a new title IX director, who by resume is hoary, if not hairy: some dude with almost 2 decades prior LE experience investigating sex crimes, who was most recently a title IX compliance man for another large school as his retirement gig. That search was wicked fast, and probably expensive.

How about that.

Carry on.

[FNFAN]

You have no idea the joy I felt when this came out. What a sanctimonious hypocrite. I detest him.

You should get a giggle out of this: Maxine Waters calls Conyers a man of "Impeccable Integrity" on womens issues. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbU80xo6qm0&feature=youtu.be)

(Full Disclosure: I'm a huge supporter of Maxine to be the next Democratic Candidate for President of The United States!:o Only she can unite Antifa and the drooling idiots who supported the Clan Clinton)

[peterb]

If we have to throw out everyone in congress who has been sexually inappropriate with a page, a young boy, a young girl, a staff member, someone other than their spouse etc...I don't think there'd be enough folks on either side of the aisle to push any legislation through. (Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.)
.

A look at the Bob Packwood case from 1993:
https://www.npr.org/2017/11/27/566096392/when-bob-packwood-was-nearly-expelled-from-the-senate-for-sexual-misconduct

A quote from his diary:

"I have one question — if she didn't want me to feather her nest, why did she come into the Xerox room? Sure, she used that old excuse that she had to make copies of the Brady Bill, but if you believe that, I have a room full of radical feminists you can boff. She knew I was copying stuff in there. I had my jacket off and my sleeves rolled up, revealing the well-defined musculature of my sinewy arms which are always bulging with desire. I know what she wanted. This didn't require a lot of thought."

Sheesh.

[blues]

...I had my jacket off and my sleeves rolled up, revealing the well-defined musculature of my sinewy arms which are always bulging with desire.

Wow, I'm gonna stop taking creatine and get on viagra!

(I guess Pack Wood was aptly named. :rolleyes:)

[okie john]

[stupid self-employment joke]My boss literally can't keep his hands off me.[/stupid self-employment joke]

I used to be self-employed but I had to quit. There was just too much sexual tension.


Okie John

[NEPAKevin]

It drives me nuts he gets a pass for that shit.


Have not read it my self, but in The First Family Detail: Secret Service Agents Reveal the Hidden Lives of the Presidents (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J6YBOQU/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1), there are supposedly claims that Biden has a lot of issues, including skinny dipping in front of female agents, and is second only to the Klintons as far as undesirable assignments.

[Baldanders]

I've seen nothing to indicate this is an anti-Trump political maneuver. Plenty of people on both sides of the aisle are getting accused, and it's not as if Trump needs help getting people to hate him.
In a bizarre sort of way, I think Trump is somewhat responsible for the wave of women coming forth with these stories now. After the Access Hollywood tape, I think many of them realized nothing had changed at all since the Anita Hill testimony and they just couldn't take it anymore. There seems to be blame all around here, and I don't see any focus on any particular political persuasion. Both parties are dumb as dirt if they think they are going to be able to use this as a weapon against the other. This is a wildfire, not a lightning strike.

[OlongJohnson]

It drives me nuts he gets a pass for that shit.

21971

That's exactly what it looked like, except with a 14 year old girl.

[Chance]

And down goes Matt Lauer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42168640).

[blues]

And down goes Matt Lauer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42168640).

He's been living on borrowed time from what I recall. As far as I'm concerned neither he, nor NBC for that matter, will or would be missed.

[SD]

Not so sure he was the one going down.I believe Matt will survive this and be back in short time. Maybe a little therapy thrown in for good measure. NBC will bring him back on board neutered and compliant.
And down goes Matt Lauer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42168640).

[DallasBronco]

[stupid self-employment joke]My boss literally can't keep his hands off me.[/stupid self-employment joke]
If there has been any inappropriate touching, you may not want to share that...:D

[blues]

If there has been any inappropriate touching, you may not want to share that...:D

Why not? Doesn't Tom deserve the same opportunity to join the "me too" generation? :rolleyes:

Now I have a better understanding of the term "self abuse". ;)

[DallasBronco]

Why not? Doesn't Tom deserve the same opportunity to join the "me too" generation? :rolleyes:

Now I have a better understanding of the term "self abuse". ;)
In this case, it would be dancing on the line of TMI, I think.

[JTQ]

redundant

[peterb]

NBC will bring him back on board neutered and compliant.

Stopping a guy from harassing women is emasculating?

[NEPAKevin]

AP is reporting that Garrison Keilor was fired by Minnesota PBS for "inappropriate behavior. "

[Drang]

Stopping a guy from harassing women is emasculating?

It is if he's a Liberal Icon.


And down goes Matt Lauer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42168640).

AP is reporting that Garrison Keilor was fired by Minnesota PBS for "inappropriate behavior. "
Can this day get any more schadenfreuadalicious?

[Morbidbattlecry]

I'm seeing a lack of republicans on many lists on here so let me help a bit. Donald Trump, Roy Moore(sorry not sexual harassment, Rape of minors),Don Shooter, Roger Ailes,George H.W. Bush,John Conyers and so on and so forth. So lets not pretend one side is somehow better than the other here because the both suck.

[okie john]

Garrison Keillor: https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/garrison-keillor-says-fired-over-alleged-improper-behavior-172230971.html

AMF.


Okie John

[JTQ]

I'm seeing a lack of republicans on many lists on here so let me help a bit. Donald Trump, Roy Moore(sorry not sexual harassment, Rape of minors),Don Shooter, Roger Ailes,George H.W. Bush,John Conyers and so on and so forth. So lets not pretend one side is somehow better than the other here because the both suck.
"The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor..."

John Conyers, D-Michigan

While I'm not a Roy Moore fan, I don't think there are any "rape of a minor" charges pending.

[Gadfly]

Too soon?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171129/a5d987edfc2643216e2dddaca9e61d3c.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NEPAKevin]

So lets not pretend one side is somehow better than the other here because the both suck.

In my best Bill Clinton voice: "Uh, Phrasing"

[Duelist]

"The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor..."

John Conyers, D-Michigan

While I'm not a Roy Moore fan, I don't think there are any "rape of a minor" charges pending.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant!

[hufnagel]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant!

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oKIPyFOx5YbxyU000/giphy.gif

[blues]

Fuck all abusers of every stripe, everywhere. (Phrasing and subliminal meaning left to the reader's choice.)

Oh wait, if its non-consensual would that make me as bad as they are...?

(I'll take the hit.)

[Rex G]

I had to look-up Matt Lauer; never heard of him. For that matter, I not heard anything about NBC in years, having largely disremembered that NBC still existed.

I think we may still have a TV, somewhere ‘round here...

[Drang]

I'm seeing a lack of republicans on many lists on here so let me help a bit. Donald Trump, Roy Moore(sorry not sexual harassment, Rape of minors),Don Shooter, Roger Ailes,George H.W. Bush,John Conyers and so on and so forth. So lets not pretend one side is somehow better than the other here because the both suck.

Conyers is a D.
Moore was a D at the time, FWIW, and you are the first to allege "rape of minors", so maybe be a little more careful about potentially actionable accusations?
He's admitted that when he was in is 30s w he dated girls who were 18 or 19. Creepy but not illegal. There are accusations that he may have touched a 16 year old inappropriately, but the "proof" that he met he seems to be dubious, at best. ("I have here a photograph of a high school yearbook with his signature. Ignore the fact that it appears to have been photoshopped from the woman's mother's divorce decree, and includes the initials of Judge More's clerk. And no, I won't let you examine the yearbook itself...:)
Who the hell is Don Shooter?

None of which changes the fact that many of these allegations are just that, allegations. Allegations may be enough to get one fired -- see Lauer, Matt, who, as @Tam points out in her blog post this morning (https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2017/11/tomorrow-yesterday-on-today.html), has been paid enough by NBC over the years to hire good enough lawyers that simple shit canning was probably the easiest way out -- may be enough to get one fired, as I was saying, but not enough to put one away in prison.

Nor does it change the fact that liberals and democrats have been screeching for years about the "Right's" alleged "War On Women", and whaddaya know, the left is at least as bad as the right. Not that anyone who was not in a coma during the Clinton years didn't already know that.

I am more concerned about the fact that Congress apparently has a Shush Slush Fund to pay off accusers. Since this was presumably paid for with our tax dollars, I think it would only be right and proper to Name and Shame the miscreants, not to mention impeaching any who egregiously violated Congressional rules, and prosecute any who may be guilty of crimes.

The media will never go for it, unless it happens that more Rs are guilty than Ds.

[Trukinjp13]

Conyers is a pos. My neighbor who is heavily involved in politics. Has told me of Conyers and his treatment of woman in his office or at meetings. It was never enough in a public setting to be full blown harassment, but stated how he just gave you the creeps.
Yes there are republicans who have done bad shit. But most all the sick fuckers in hollywood and in politics right now. Are liberal/democrat anti gun piles of shit. I am damn well
Positive if they had legit dirt on Republicans the ENTIRE world would know. The media hates them. I hope all of them burn. I do not care who you are affiliated with.

A dirtbag is a dirtbag. Does not matter color or gender.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JTQ]

I had to look-up Matt Lauer; .
I'll always remember an interview Matt Lauer did with Wayne LaPierre on the Today Show back in the late 1990's that turned into a shouting match on live TV.

The reason I remember it, was the day before I had been in a gun store in Manassas, Va., on my day off, just walking the isles perusing the stuff. A guy, who looked familiar, but who I just couldn't place, was in the store talking gun issues with the store owner. It was a very calm, well thought out discussion, and great points were made. I walked out of the store and didn't think much of it, until the next morning when I happened to turn on the Today Show and saw the same guy from the gun store, Wayne LaPierre (who I now recognized), being interviewed by Lauer. It didn't take long for the two of them to get into a real shouting match.

I was kind of disappointed in LaPierre that he didn't stay calm and just use the same manner and facts he had used in the gun store just the day before, but Lauer really is an anti-gun jerk, and I would have had a hard time keeping cool too.

[RJ]

I *really* hope they change the system to hide sexual harassment settlements involving Congress.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/26/us/politics/john-conyers-steps-down-judiciary-committee-sexual-harassment.html

I don’t frankly think we need to shelter people who use taxpayer funds to cover up this shit.

I’d like to see who these people are and what I paid for.

[Morbidbattlecry]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant!

Your right my bad. My one incorrect person negates all that the other have done.

[FNFAN]

I'm seeing a lack of republicans on many lists on here so let me help a bit. Donald Trump, Roy Moore(sorry not sexual harassment, Rape of minors),Don Shooter, Roger Ailes,George H.W. Bush,John Conyers and so on and so forth. So lets not pretend one side is somehow better than the other here because the both suck.

No Bush fan here, but I'll give H.W. a pass for patting a lady on the butt at age 90+ with some dementia issues. I'm still waiting for Moore's attorney to let the forensics go forward on his alleged inscription in his victims yearbook. The fact that she wont let it happen makes me say "hmmmmm?"

Let me make it clear that I don't condone harassment or inappropriate behavior with minors. I have a daughter and would act harshly to stop that behavior toward her. We're just 16 years out from the last state moving age of consent from 14 to 16 and just over a century from the age of consent being a low of 7 years with most states being 10-12 with some states making a distinction on criminality based on whether the victim was "of chaste character."

There shouldn't be any real surprise at what evil men (or women) do when they have positions of authority, especially when it has been the norm for generations. I once sat in on a proffer meeting (basically a plea bargain) where the accused admitted to taking his 12 year old niece's virginity. This was the norm in his culture and he was shocked that it was criminalized in ours.

I heard a radio segment recently discussing a popular female columnist from one of the big magazine's who said that she wasn't at all concerned that men could be accused falsely and have their lives ruined or be prosecuted, basically saying that 'you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.'

If they're perv's prosecute as warranted or as able. That includes the group using "The Lolita Express" to fly off to private islands with doped up underage girls.

[okie john]

I *really* hope they change the system to hide sexual harassment settlements involving Congress.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/26/us/politics/john-conyers-steps-down-judiciary-committee-sexual-harassment.html

I don’t frankly think we need to shelter people who use taxpayer funds to cover up this shit.

I’d like to see who these people are and what I paid for.

This.

The whole point of this is to stop sheltering abusers because that silences victims. The fact that someone thinks it's OK to do this with taxpayer dollars is infuriating. Lawmakers are public employees and they're answerable to the public--in public.


Okie John

[hufnagel]

I'm just enjoying the imploding shit show.

[Drang]

At least one bill has been introduced to end the shush slush fund, and release names and terms, Representative Ron DeSantis' "Congressional Accountability and Hush Fund Elimination Act is a bipartisan bill that will expose taxpayer-funded sexual harassment settlements in Congress and eliminate the congressional hush fund."
(Quoted from Twitter. Haven't been able to figure out hot to embed a tweet...)

[Drang]

I'm still waiting for Moore's attorney to let the forensics go forward on his alleged inscription in his victims yearbook. The fact that she wont let it happen makes me say "hmmmmm?"
Last I heard, it was the attorney for the alleged victim that was sitting on the "evidence."

[FNFAN]

Last I heard, it was the attorney for the alleged victim that was sitting on the "evidence."

You're absolutely correct. I miss-typed. I believe it is Gloria Allred representing her.

[UNM1136]

My mantra of “Don’t dip your pen in company ink” served me well over the years. I have seen very few workplace romances work out over the long term and a high ratio that turn into absolute nightmares at some point.


This.

Work related marriages in the cop world get ugly, with the long hours, the driven type a personalities, and the fact that we watch enough marriages fall apart to know all the tricks. My first exposure to the burner phone was another cop. I can think of two cop marriages in the last 19 years I have been working where the couples are still together, and no one strayed. And another two that started as an affair but after the separations and divorces the couples seems to have settled down. And when cop marriages go south they do it quickly, publicly, and most are very ugly. It all comes out eventually.

I have been tempted and had opportunities, and never thought that giving up half my retirement in the resulting divorce was a good trade. If I stay married I have to give her all my retirement, but I still get a place to live, and clean laundry, and get to use some of the retirement money for what I want, occasionally. I don't have to keep working beyond my interest in a high burnout career because the chunk of retirement the ex left me was not enough to live on. More the norm where I work than many like to admit. I watch guys all the time who think nothing of hugging coworkers, dirty talk, innuendo, and some even did manage to turn a hookup out of it. I am not one of them, and it is noticed, but I am 22 years into my first marriage, an not on some multiple of marriages, so what do I know?

pat

[Drang]

never mind

[hufnagel]

change it from [tweet] to [drang] as the tag. then he might remember. :D

[blues]

change it from [tweet] to [drang] as the tag. then he might remember. :D

That's a drang fine idea.

[Drang]

Probably not, since the last time you asked how to embed a tweet I created the tweet tag just for you. [emoji4]

There is a link to a summary of all acceptable BBCode tags at the bottom of (almost) every page:

https://pistol-forum.com/misc.php?do=bbcode

Bookmarked.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Calls for Franken to resign: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/al-franken-women-senators-resign/547658/

[NEPAKevin]

2008 Matt Lauer Roast (http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/12/05/media-elite-laughed-at-2008-roast-sending-matt-lauer-s-pervy-behavior.html)


Another of the roast’s speakers was current CNN Worldwide President Jeff Zucker ─ then the chairman of NBC Universal ─ who last week adamantly denied that he had any idea about Lauer’s in-office sexcapades.

“It’s just good to see Matt up here and not under my desk,” Zucker said from the podium. “I don’t want to say Matt is a germophobe, but he’s the only guy I know who uses Purell both before and after he masturbates.”


But the most cringeworthy comments, in hindsight, were made by Lauer himself, who spoke at the end of the roast. The “Today” star alluded to sex with two former colleagues, Couric and Curry.

“Let me just say that I saw that colon a lot before the rest of you saw it,” Lauer said in an anal sex joke about Couric (who famously underwent a colonoscopy on air).

But the twice-married Lauer wasn’t finished joking about sleeping with female contemporaries.

“What’s with all the small-d--- jokes? It was fun to look over and see Ann Curry laughing… like she doesn’t know how big my d--- really is,” Lauer said, wrapping up an event that The Village Voice called “three hours of d--- jokes.”

[1slow]

Victor Davis Hanson did an interesting blog post on sexual predators.

[RoyGBiv]

Victor Davis Hanson did an interesting blog post on sexual predators.

Ya gotta post the link man..... I guess this is it?
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454345/cruel-sexual-harassment-premodern-men-no-repercussions

[okie john]

And now people are talking RICO: https://www.forbes.com/sites/legalentertainment/2017/12/06/the-weinstein-company-and-others-face-rico-claim-in-wake-of-sexual-assault-cover-ups/#4cf1989848fe


Okie John

[RJ]

Calls for Franken to resign: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/al-franken-women-senators-resign/547658/

As I understand he’s going to make ‘an announcement’ today.

I would guess Nancy and Chuck have to have Conyers and Franken gone before the Alabama special election so they can make Moore’s proclivities with Cheerleaders an issue.

[hufnagel]

.... who doesn't want to have proclivities with cheerleaders? I'm just sayin'...

[RJ]

.... who doesn't want to have proclivities with cheerleaders? I'm just sayin'...

I think that’s the decision with Alabama voters. Moore is a player who liked to uh, date a lot when he was younger. It will be up to the voters whether that’s ok or not.

I think given the amount of sexual harassment being reported on in politics these days, it doesn’t seem a huge disqualifier to me.

Now whether or not Moore being an asshat or not, as some I think have stated, is a different matter.

I guess we’ll see on Dec 12.

[MK11]

20 year old cheerleaders? I doff my hat to you.

Underage cheerleaders? Go directly to jail. That’s the question with Moore. Even Slick Willie kept them legal.

[RoyGBiv]

20 year old cheerleaders? I doff my hat to you.

Underage cheerleaders? Go directly to jail. That’s the question with Moore. Even Slick Willie kept them legal.

30-somethings hitting on HS kids should get staked down naked on a fire ant mound.

[Sensei]

Frankin announced that he is going to resign in the coming weeks.

Personally, I think that he should have announced on the Senate Floor his intention to change parties. Ten bucks says that the Republicans would have rallied around him for his vote.

[RoyGBiv]

Frankin announced that he is going to resign in the coming weeks.

Personally, I think that he should have announced on the Senate Floor his intention to change parties. Ten bucks says that the Republicans would have rallied around him for his vote.

Kinda like how the Democrats victim blamed Lewinsky, et.al.?
Or how just a few weeks ago Pelosi referred to Conyers as an "icon"
And all the other shit they routinely do...

Here, I'll quote Vanity fair for you.. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/nancy-pelosi-sexual-harassment-democrats

Just because someone is accused—and was it one accusation? Is it two? I think there has to be—John Conyers is an icon in our country.

We'll see what happens when Moore arrives at the Senate...

Call me when you rid the world of hypocrisy. I'm buying your drinks that night.

[1slow]

Ya gotta post the link man..... I guess this is it?
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454345/cruel-sexual-harassment-premodern-men-no-repercussions

Yes, It was in his blog as well. Hanson has a lot of interest to say being a non communist professor of history in CA.

[Sensei]

Kinda like how the Democrats victim blamed Lewinsky, et.al.?
Or how just a few weeks ago Pelosi referred to Conyers as an "icon"
And all the other shit they routinely do...

Here, I'll quote Vanity fair for you.. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/nancy-pelosi-sexual-harassment-democrats


We'll see what happens when Moore arrives at the Senate...

Call me when you rid the world of hypocrisy. I'm buying your drinks that night.

I somehow forgot to add the link. This should give some context to my sarcasm:

https://hotair.com/archives/2017/12/07/democratic-lynch-mob-needs-back-off-al-franken-say-laura-ingraham-newt-gingrich/

Someone explain to me how we have come to the point of Republican talking heads defending the likes of Al Frankin to give political cover to their own shady candidates.

[RJ]

Call me when you rid the world of hypocrisy. I'm buying your drinks that night.

I will bring the steaks and charcoal.

[Erik]

30-somethings hitting on HS kids should get staked down naked on a fire ant mound.

Alright, alright, alright.

[peterb]

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/07/569291354/rep-trent-franks-to-resign-from-congress-after-asking-staffers-about-surrogacy

Arizona Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., became the third member of Congress to resign this week, saying that he had approached two female subordinates about being a surrogate for his child.

[RoyGBiv]

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/07/569291354/rep-trent-franks-to-resign-from-congress-after-asking-staffers-about-surrogacy

Arizona Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., became the third member of Congress to resign this week, saying that he had approached two female subordinates about being a surrogate for his child.

Can I say "The hits just keep on coming"?
How many entendres is that? :rolleyes:

Lots of swamp critters down the drain this week.

http://spacecoastdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/17-foot-python.jpg (http://spacecoastdaily.com/2017/12/video-florida-python-hunter-snags-record-17-foot-python-in-everglades/)

[OlongJohnson]

Alright, alright, alright.

Assuming you meant this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wf-mRo7C2I

[Sensei]

It will be interesting to see how the runup to the Winter Olympics plays out as one of their prominent team physicians has plead guilty to child porn and is implicated in more than 200 cases of rape and child sexual abuse. Some high profile athletes are claiming the abuse was known at the upper echelons of the US Olympic Committee.

[Erik]

Assuming you meant this

That was the reference, yes.

[peterb]

https://www.texastribune.org/2017/12/07/us-house-ethics-committee-takes-closer-look-blake-farenthold-allegatio/amp/

The U.S. House Ethics Committee voted Thursday to establish a subcommittee to investigate allegations that U.S. Rep. Blake Farenthold sexually harassed a subordinate several years ago. Settlement was paid with taxpayer funds.

[blues]

https://www.texastribune.org/2017/12/07/us-house-ethics-committee-takes-closer-look-blake-farenthold-allegatio/amp/

The U.S. House Ethics Committee voted Thursday to establish a subcommittee to investigate allegations that U.S. Rep. Blake Farenthold sexually harassed a subordinate several years ago. Settlement was paid with taxpayer funds.

I know it won't happen but he should be forced to repay. That's unconscionable.

[Rosco Benson]

I was sitting in the waiting room of an oil change place yesterday, when CBS broke in and went to Al Franken's resignation speech.

When the little douchebag said "Paul Wellstone's famous quote, the future belongs to those who are passionate and work HARD", I burst out laughing...as did another guy sitting there.

Rosco

[peterb]

I know it won't happen but he should be forced to repay. That's unconscionable.

Using taxpayer funds without accountability is also standard practice.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2017/11/17/congress-paid-million-workplace-violation-settlements/ReSTXiu09G0gV3bqrgXkfK/amp.html

[TAZ]

Jesus. What a CF of leadership we have degenerated to. Can we just fire all of them en masse and start over.

[GardoneVT]

"...and another one Bites the Dust!"

[RoyGBiv]

Jesus. What a CF of leadership we have degenerated to. Can we just fire all of them en masse and start over.

They made a TV show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_Survivor_(TV_series)) about that...
Probably not the "fire" you had in mind though.

[Dagga Boy]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/08/roy-moore-accuser-admits-forged-part-yearbook-inscription-attributed-to-alabama-senate-candidate.html

This should be interesting. Extra butter form my popcorn please.

[RoyGBiv]

‘Morning Joe’ host Mika Brzezinski victim shames Al Franken’s accuser for supporting Trump (http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/12/08/morning-joe-host-mika-brzezinski-victim-shames-al-franken-s-accuser-for-supporting-trump.html)

[Totem Polar]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/08/roy-moore-accuser-admits-forged-part-yearbook-inscription-attributed-to-alabama-senate-candidate.html

This should be interesting. Extra butter form my popcorn please.
The thing about pendulum swings: nobody recognizes the apex until after it’s happened. Popcorn indeed, while we observe for hang time.

[peterb]

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/11/569925410/mario-batali-steps-aside-at-his-restaurants-amid-sexual-misconduct-allegations

Another one bites the dust.....

[fly out]

When I saw your link from npr.org, I thought you were going here:

http://www.wbur.org/news/2017/12/11/tom-ashbrook-allegations

Tom Ashbrook is placed on leave after a complaint by a number of young women and men.

[Chance]

Steve Wynn, the finance chair for the Republican National Committee, has stepped down due to harassment claims. From BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-42848795?__twitter_impression=true):


US casino mogul Steve Wynn has resigned as finance chair of the Republican National Committee (RNC) amid sexual harassment allegations.

A Wall Street Journal report on Friday alleged that the 76-year-old billionaire harassed massage therapists and forced one staff member to have sex with him.

Mr Wynn has denied wrongdoing, calling the stories "preposterous".

RNC chair Ronna McDaniel told US media she had accepted his resignation.

Mr Wynn has blamed his ex-wife, who he is fighting in court, for the "slander".

"The instigation of these accusations is the continued work of my ex-wife Elaine Wynn, with whom I am involved in a terrible and nasty lawsuit," the billionaire said in a statement that his public relations team sent to the BBC on Friday.

[peterb]

A bit of data:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/21/587671849/a-new-survey-finds-eighty-percent-of-women-have-experienced-sexual-harassment

Full report here:
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Full-Report-2018-National-Study-on-Sexual-Harassment-and-Assault.pdf

[rob_s]

Oh good, an online survey. How cute.

I saw some of the "me too" videos when that was going around. Some of the stuff that women were citing as "harassment" was a stretch at best.

[txdpd]

Full report here:
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Full-Report-2018-National-Study-on-Sexual-Harassment-and-Assault.pdf

That study is grabbing a lot of offenses and behaviors that aren't legally defined sexual harassment and compiling them as sexual harassment to fluff up the numbers.

The from the EEOC.


Sexual Harassment

It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.

From the "study"

This term includes verbal sexual harassment (e.g., sexually explicit talk, homophobic slurs, repeated requests for a date after a person has said no), cyber sexual harassment (the use of text/phone and
Internet to sexually harass), and physically aggressive sexual harassment (flashing or indecent exposure, being physically followed and being touched or brushed up against in a sexual way without consent).
Forced sex acts are excluded from this term for this study.

[Peally]

Mardi Gras: the biggest gathering of sexual assaulters in the country.

[LittleLebowski]

Tom_Jones was sexually harassing me over text yesterday. #MeToo (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=MeToo)

[RoyGBiv]

I was ASTOUNDED by the number of women I met @ college (early 80's) that had been physically assaulted (vs. catcalls and non-physical harassment), having never seen a crumb of that in my personal experience up to then. Rape by strangers was less shocking (no less horrible) than the number of molestations by family members and jilted suitors. I certainly didn't grow up in a bubble (low-income, inner city). Any such behavior in my hood would have been met with street justice back then.

[RevolverRob]

Tom_Jones was sexually harassing me over text yesterday. #MeToo (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=MeToo)

#RevolverRobIsJealous (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=RevolverRobIsJealous)

[hufnagel]

#OffendedTomJonesHasntHarassedMeToo (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=OffendedTomJonesHasntHarassedMeToo)

[Totem Polar]

From the "study"

I’m no lawman, however, I have had to take a ton of training on this topic to keep teaching in the university system. All of that stuff is fireable offense, and I’m pretty sure that checks with commas have been written over all the behaviors in the same list.

[hufnagel]

I'm trying to decide how i feel about that picture. :D

[RoyGBiv]

I'm trying to decide how i feel about that picture. :D

No junk.... no problem. :rolleyes:

[txdpd]

I’m no lawman, however, I have had to take a ton of training on this topic to keep teaching in the university system. All of that stuff is fireable offense, and I’m pretty sure that checks with commas have been written over all the behaviors in the same list.

Sexual harassment is related to the work place. Outside of the work place it might be harassment and it might be sexual in nature but it's not legally defined "sexual harassment".


I'm trying to decide how i feel about that picture. :D

I hope I'm the only one your sending creepy photos to by PM.

#handsoff #hufnagelismine

[hufnagel]

you're. :D

[txdpd]

you're. :D

You keep me on my toes.

[willie]

A lot of good looking young women harass me about sharing my hooter, and I say, "Get thee behind thee Satan." That works every time. I may start up a used car business and call myself Honest Willie, the man who will tell you the truth. :cool:

[MistWolf]

Then there was the time the ex mother-in-law tried to put the moves on me after I divorced her daughter. It still gives me nightmares

[Chance]

And down goes Cosby. From BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43915033):


US comedian Bill Cosby has been found guilty of three counts of sexual assault, each of which carries a potential 10 years in prison.

The actor, 80, has been on trial for drugging and assaulting ex-basketball player Andrea Constand in 2004.

Cosby, the first major black actor on primetime TV, will remain out of jail until he is sentenced, the judge ruled.

He unleashed an expletive-filled rant after the verdict, as prosecutors argued he should be denied bail.

[Sensei]

25767


What? Too soon?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

So if he goes to prison, we have to pay for his medical care. Treating old people is rather expensive. Might they give him some form of house arrest, fines and probation?

[RJ]

Asshole. I hope he’s in jail the rest of his sorry life.

[Paul D]

So if he goes to prison, we have to pay for his medical care. Treating old people is rather expensive. Might they give him some form of house arrest, fines and probation?If he goes to a state prison, I think the medical costs will be minimal to the taxpayers (ie care will probably be poor). Now solitary confinement because of his celebrity status might cost some...

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If he had a heart attack - that's costly. Chemo for cancer? You can bet that he will have lawyers looking for some differential or low quality treatment. Would he go to one of the nicer joints that are for politicians?

[JohnO]

Would he go to one of the nicer joints that are for politicians?

Isn't that Club Fed like where Martha Stewart vacationed? The type of place where they paint lines on the ground and suggest you don't cross them.

[willie]

My opinion is that he won't do much time despite the sentence. In the event of his being diagnosed with cancer or dementia, I predict that he will be sent home. There are many old people in prison whose families don't want them at home because caring for them is too much trouble.
Texas has(or did have)one unit for elderly inmates. I think that Cosby goes will be received and treated with respect by inmates and staff. So, it won't be hard time in one sense.

[Drang]

25767


What? Too soon?
Pretty sure it was posted somewhere here before. Mostly object to it because Bubba is still free and chasing skirts.

[Gary1911A1]

He's reportedly going blind so his lawyers will argue that as a reason for probation instead of incarceration.

[okie john]

Isn't that Club Fed like where Martha Stewart vacationed? The type of place where they paint lines on the ground and suggest you don't cross them.

It may have to do with the length of his sentence. Former Enron CEO Jeffery Skilling ended up not getting the country-club experience because the judge wouldn't cut his sentence from 292 to 282 months.

30 years for Cosby might accomplish the same thing, and the social climate is certainly ripe for that sort of thing.


Okie John

[Chance]

Morgan Freeman's up to bat (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/eight-women-accuse-morgan-freeman-report-inappropriate-behavior-harassment-n877126).

[peterb]

Weinstein turns himself in, charged with rape.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/25/614339339/harvey-weinstein-surrenders-to-authorities-on-sexual-assault-charges

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Morgan, Harry and Bill should get assigned to the same lock-up and they could organize a theater group and put on a show!

[Sensei]

It looks like Ronan Farrow is about to add some more big scalps to his already impressive pelt. Today, he just put a knife into the aorta of CBS CEO Leslie Moonves. His follow through stroke took out the axillary artery of 60 Minutes Executive Producer Jeff Fager.

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/07/27/cbs-stock-drops-anticipation-report-ceo/

Many people dismiss Farrow as a pretty boy whose success was served up on a golden platter and fed from silver spoons. He has proved them wrong. While I would not agree with many of his political positions, I respect his willingness and ability dispatch many of the titans in liberal media culture. At age 30, the guy is basically the architect of the #MeToo (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=MeToo) movement.

[Otaku.edc]

It looks like Ronan Farrow is about to add some more big scalps to his already impressive pelt. Today, he just put a knife into the aorta of CBS CEO Leslie Moonves. His follow through stroke took out the axillary artery of 60 Minutes Executive Producer Jeff Fager.

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/07/27/cbs-stock-drops-anticipation-report-ceo/

Many people dismiss Farrow as a pretty boy whose success was served up on a golden platter and fed from silver spoons. He has proved them wrong. While I would not agree with many of his political positions, I respect his willingness and ability dispatch many of the titans in liberal media culture. At age 30, the guy is basically the architect of the #MeToo (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=MeToo) movement.

He's doing it his way.

[Chance]

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45467975):


The head of US media giant CBS, Les Moonves, has resigned with immediate effect after allegations of sexual misconduct.

CBS had been investigating Mr Moonves since allegations appeared in the New Yorker in July - and fresh accusations from six more women appeared on Sunday.

....

The Financial Times said Mr Moonves was resigning because this would entitle him to a hefty severance package, including stock options.

US media said the resignation package for Mr Moonves could amount to $100m.

He must be devastated.

[Nephrology]

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45467975):



He must be devastated.

Barf.

[TAZ]

It looks like Ronan Farrow is about to add some more big scalps to his already impressive pelt. Today, he just put a knife into the aorta of CBS CEO Leslie Moonves. His follow through stroke took out the axillary artery of 60 Minutes Executive Producer Jeff Fager.

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/07/27/cbs-stock-drops-anticipation-report-ceo/

Many people dismiss Farrow as a pretty boy whose success was served up on a golden platter and fed from silver spoons. He has proved them wrong. While I would not agree with many of his political positions, I respect his willingness and ability dispatch many of the titans in liberal media culture. At age 30, the guy is basically the architect of the #MeToo (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=MeToo) movement.

I’ll be happy to share your optimism, so long as these scalps are being taken using factual evidence instead of simple accusations and he said she said crap.

[Sensei]

I’ll be happy to share your optimism, so long as these scalps are being taken using factual evidence instead of simple accusations and he said she said crap.

If the liberal media and Hollywood want to immolate themselves over he said she said accusations, I don’t plan to throw them any water. So far, the only non-leftists that have gotten burned of late were O’Rielly and Ailes, both of whome paid 7 figure settlements to keep women quiet - multiple times.

What gives me some real pause is all the Title IX bullshit that is happening on college campuses.

[Totem Polar]

If the liberal media and Hollywood want to immolate themselves over he said she said accusations, I don’t plan to throw them any water. So far, the only non-leftists that have gotten burned of late were O’Rielly and Ailes, both of whome paid 7 figure settlements to keep women quiet - multiple times.

What gives me some real pause is all the Title IX bullshit that is happening on college campuses.

Agreed on the progressive predators. Make bed; lie in same.

As to title IX, any weapon can be abused. I will say that a title IX investigation recently allowed my tribe to put a foot in the ass of a prof who was sending pics of his weenus to students, despite a morally bankrupt middle administration covering for the dude. Best part: the middle admin ended up following him OTD over the mishandling. Pretty cool, actually.

[JAD]

Agreed on the progressive predators. Make bed; lie in same.

As to title IX, any weapon can be abused. I will say that a title IX investigation recently allowed my tribe to put a foot in the ass of a prof who was sending pics of his weenus to students, despite a morally bankrupt middle administration covering for the dude. Best part: the middle admin ended up following him OTD over the mishandling. Pretty cool, actually.

Did anyone get prosecuted and do time?

[Nephrology]

If the liberal media and Hollywood want to immolate themselves over he said she said accusations, I don’t plan to throw them any water. So far, the only non-leftists that have gotten burned of late were O’Rielly and Ailes, both of whome paid 7 figure settlements to keep women quiet - multiple times.

What gives me some real pause is all the Title IX bullshit that is happening on college campuses.

Frankly, I very much hope this continues to transcend partisan lines. If even half of the allegations that have been levied to date are true (and I have no doubt it is more than that), then the degree to which we have tacitly permitted the sexual victimization of women in our society is absolutely unforgivable. I think we all as a species stand to benefit by continuing to purge those who have no business belonging to a civilized society.

[TAZ]

If the liberal media and Hollywood want to immolate themselves over he said she said accusations, I don’t plan to throw them any water. So far, the only non-leftists that have gotten burned of late were O’Rielly and Ailes, both of whome paid 7 figure settlements to keep women quiet - multiple times.

What gives me some real pause is all the Title IX bullshit that is happening on college campuses.


Frankly, I very much hope this continues to transcend partisan lines. If even half of the allegations that have been levied to date are true (and I have no doubt it is more than that), then the degree to which we have tacitly permitted the sexual victimization of women in our society is absolutely unforgivable. I think we all as a species stand to benefit by continuing to purge those who have no business belonging to a civilized society.

Any time someone, ANYONES, life is ruined by mere innuendo or factless accusation should give all of us a pause. I don’t care if it’s a liberal, conservative, black, white... You shouldn’t either, cause you may be next.

I believe that sexual predators are slightly above child predators and we should have pay per view skinning events, but I want facts, not decades old accusations.

Paying settlements is also not something I take too seriously. Doesn’t one of you guys work in the medical profession? How many times have you been sued and your hospital, insurance chose to settle rather than go to court, even though you were correct?? I’m not in medical, but I’ve seen corporate suits settled simply cause it was cheaper than going to court. Maybe if these settlements weren’t so “popular” I’d give them more credibility, but not today.

Again, sexual predators are assholes than need to be purged from society ASAFP. It just needs to be done factually and not in the court of public opinion. Didn’t this whole thing get lit off by the Roy More accusations, and look at how it’s backfiring on the liberals. To think it can’t backfire on anyone is not wise, IMO.

[Nephrology]

and look at how it’s backfiring on the liberals. To think it can’t backfire on anyone is not wise, IMO.

My basic position is that it's not "backfiring on liberals." If it's being leveraged for political gain, that's obviously wrong. I don't think Ronan Farrow is doing this because he wants to annihilate people who are politically like minded. I think that growing up with a predator for a stepfather has given him a passion for exposing sexual predators and I don't think he gives a shit who they vote for.

I don't have a response to the rest of what you have to say because it is unrelated to the content of my post and sounds more like you have an axe to grind than anything else.

[TAZ]

My basic position is that it's not "backfiring on liberals." If it's being leveraged for political gain, that's obviously wrong. I don't think Ronan Farrow is doing this because he wants to annihilate people who are politically like minded. I think that growing up with a predator for a stepfather has given him a passion for exposing sexual predators and I don't think he gives a shit who they vote for.

I don't have a response to the rest of what you have to say because it is unrelated to the content of my post and sounds more like you have an axe to grind than anything else.

Apologies, if I came across as having an axe to grind against you. It was definitely not my intent.

Was just pointing out the fallacy of accepting baseless accusation as truth simply cause we don’t happen to like the people being accused today.

I want the predators gone as much as the next guy, but I’m not content with 50% accuracy rate given the public nature of the system being used. Even if completely private until conviction, I have an issue with a 50% accuracy rate. That’s 50% of accused people being dragged through the mud, losing $$ on lawyers and possibly having their family ruined. I’m not cool with that.

[Nephrology]

Apologies, if I came across as having an axe to grind against you. It was definitely not my intent.

Was just pointing out the fallacy of accepting baseless accusation as truth simply cause we don’t happen to like the people being accused today.

I want the predators gone as much as the next guy, but I’m not content with 50% accuracy rate given the public nature of the system being used. Even if completely private until conviction, I have an issue with a 50% accuracy rate. That’s 50% of accused people being dragged through the mud, losing $$ on lawyers and possibly having their family ruined. I’m not cool with that.

I bring up the figure 50% to say that if even 50% of the accusations are true, then we do, in fact, have an epidemic on our hands. I obviously would be unhappy if 50% of those accused were ruined on baseless rumor alone. I think even one instance of sexual exploitation unacceptable.

I would like to think in 2018 we can hold ourselves to higher standards, regardless of political affiliation. I sincerely hope that protecting those who have been victimized and punishing their predators is a charge that we can all embrace: men and women, democrats, republicans, and everyone in between.

[Sensei]

Any time someone, ANYONES, life is ruined by mere innuendo or factless accusation should give all of us a pause. I donÂ’t care if itÂ’s a liberal, conservative, black, white... You shouldnÂ’t either, cause you may be next.

I believe that sexual predators are slightly above child predators and we should have pay per view skinning events, but I want facts, not decades old accusations.

Paying settlements is also not something I take too seriously. Doesn’t one of you guys work in the medical profession? How many times have you been sued and your hospital, insurance chose to settle rather than go to court, even though you were correct?? I’m not in medical, but I’ve seen corporate suits settled simply cause it was cheaper than going to court. Maybe if these settlements weren’t so “popular” I’d give them more credibility, but not today.

Again, sexual predators are assholes than need to be purged from society ASAFP. It just needs to be done factually and not in the court of public opinion. DidnÂ’t this whole thing get lit off by the Roy More accusations, and look at how itÂ’s backfiring on the liberals. To think it canÂ’t backfire on anyone is not wise, IMO.


First, IÂ’m not aware of any high profile cases that were he said she said; they were all he said THEY said with multiple credible accusers. Second, virtually all of them have admitted some element of the abuse. Clinton, Weinstein, Spacey, Cosby, Lauer, etc. have all had credible accusers and acknowledged some aspect of wrongdoing.

Second, most cases of sexual abuse and harassment relay solely on victim testimony. The entire Catholic priest abuse scandal is a prime example. So, IÂ’m more than comfortable judging these individual cases on their merit based on the credibility of the accusers.

So, IÂ’ll go out on a limb and say that IÂ’m not aware of a single high profile case where the accused was drummed out of society by a single incredible accusation. In other words, guys like Cosby who have already been convicted and Weinstein who is facing charges are not causing me to lose a bit of sleep. In fact, I canÂ’t help but feel a little smug with the reality that 90% of the accused come from the far left - itÂ’s poetic.

[TAZ]

I bring up the figure 50% to say that if even 50% of the accusations are true, then we do, in fact, have an epidemic on our hands. I obviously would be unhappy if 50% of those accused were ruined on baseless rumor alone. I think even one instance of sexual exploitation unacceptable.

I would like to think in 2018 we can hold ourselves to higher standards, regardless of political affiliation. I sincerely hope that protecting those who have been victimized and punishing their predators is a charge that we can all embrace: men and women, democrats, republicans, and everyone in between.

I think we have a case of you saying 1+2=3 and me saying 2+1=3

We need to go after sexual predators with impunity and with evidence. I would also like to go after false accusers with the same gusto, but that’s a different discussion.

[TAZ]

First, IÂ’m not aware of any high profile cases that were he said she said; they were all he said THEY said with multiple credible accusers. Second, virtually all of them have admitted some element of the abuse. Clinton, Weinstein, Spacey, Cosby, Lauer, etc. have all had credible accusers and acknowledged some aspect of wrongdoing.

Second, most cases of sexual abuse and harassment relay solely on victim testimony. The entire Catholic priest abuse scandal is a prime example. So, IÂ’m more than comfortable judging these individual cases on their merit based on the credibility of the accusers.

So, IÂ’ll go out on a limb and say that IÂ’m not aware of a single high profile case where the accused was drummed out of society by a single incredible accusation. In other words, guys like Cosby who have already been convicted and Weinstein who is facing charges are not causing me to lose a bit of sleep. In fact, I canÂ’t help but feel a little smug with the reality that 90% of the accused come from the far left - itÂ’s poetic.

I seem to remember a lacrosse team being raked over the coals a while back.

How many have been accused only to have no charges filed or even dropped after inconsistencies in the accusers stories?

How many folks have been caught up in the #metoo movement and have been charged with crimes?

What I dislike is that we are primarily using public shaming first, and trial after to get these folks in the cages they belong in.

Maybe it’s gotten to the point where the biggest bunch if roaches that need lights shined on them are the prosecutors who don’t do their jobs the first time. It’s a truly sad statement if our legal system has gone so far down hill that the only way to get justice for these victims is to start with the public shaming and hope a prosecutor gets it.

[Totem Polar]

Did anyone get prosecuted and do time?

Nope, that much I do know. Everyone invoved was above the age of majority, and no assault happened; harrasement only. I’m not privy to all the details, but scuttlebutt is that the whistleblowing student who received the obvious sexts got cut a fat check. The perp is gone, and out of the teaching biz. I also know that I don’t get to see the people responsible for hiring and covering for him (they were told not to by the area search commitee personnel) through the level of the dean’s office at the next faculty retreat. I also know that we have a new, hoary title IX director with previous big state school experience, as well as 17 years of prior LE experience investigating sex crimes, who emergently replaced the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed young PhD who preceed him. Much of HR is new faces too. Previous dean of students is now gone as well—could be entirely unrelated, but my gut doesn’t say that. There’s been some epic housecleaning. Oh, and the BOT rewrote and back dated the U’s harrassment and reporting policies, effective the same month all this came to light. In all, I’ve enjoyed the view of late, after several years of not enjoying what I saw so much. Student did very well, and graduated—presumably minus much in the way of debt. Other students involved have told me that they are very happy with how things panned out. The guy that should have been teaching the course all along is in, and absolutely killing it.

No jailing involved, just lawyers and an ass ton of expense over what was essentially stupid admin games. JMO on that last part.

[Sensei]

I seem to remember a lacrosse team being raked over the coals a while back.

How many have been accused only to have no charges filed or even dropped after inconsistencies in the accusers stories?

How many folks have been caught up in the #metoo movement and have been charged with crimes?

What I dislike is that we are primarily using public shaming first, and trial after to get these folks in the cages they belong in.

Maybe it’s gotten to the point where the biggest bunch if roaches that need lights shined on them are the prosecutors who don’t do their jobs the first time. It’s a truly sad statement if our legal system has gone so far down hill that the only way to get justice for these victims is to start with the public shaming and hope a prosecutor gets it.

The Duke lacrosse players were falsely accused and then awarded $20 million each in restitution after being exonerated. You will never eliminate all false accusations.

As for the public shaming, many times that is all that we have left. Very often the statute of limitations has expired or the cases involve pervasive sexual harassment that is not a crime. Do you have any problem with guys like Clinton being tried in the court of public opinion? I certainly don’t.

[JAD]

The Duke lacrosse players were falsely accused and then awarded $20 million each in restitution after being exonerated. You will never eliminate all false accusations..

The big deal with Duke lacrosse was Rolling Stone's epic mendacity. http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/13/settlement-fraternity-rolling-stonerape-hoax-saga-officially/

How that rag didn't get sued out of existence is beyond me.

[WobblyPossum]

The difficulty with many sex crime cases is that there is no tangible evidence beyond the statement of the complainant. Quite often the events in question happened years ago and the complainant never sought medical attention and never told anyone. There may be circumstantial evidence such as witnessed interactions between the suspect and complainant raising eyebrows that help paint the whole picture but if you’re hoping to see evidence like the things featured on Law and Order: SVU, don’t hold your breath. If I get a case where the complainant actually went to the hospital within 72 hours of the assault for a SANE exam, it’s like winning the lottery. Most of the time, the best evidence I see is a text message between the two parties that can either be suspicious or not depending on how one were to read it. Maybe I get a wire warrant and the suspect admits something they’ll later regret on a recorded phone call. Mostly, all I have is the statement of the complainant and the fact that he/she told a friend or family member the same things shortly after the incident demonstrating that the complainant has remained consistent in his/her account of the incident.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sensei]

The big deal with Duke lacrosse was Rolling Stone's epic mendacity. http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/13/settlement-fraternity-rolling-stonerape-hoax-saga-officially/

How that rag didn't get sued out of existence is beyond me.

I think you are confusing the UVA Fraternity and Duke Lacrosse cases. The Duke case involved a black accuser, the usual race baiting clergy, and a very corrupt Durham DA (you get 1 guess as to his political leanings).

The UVA case involved Rolling Stone advertising for accusers on UVA’s campus and libeling an entire fraternity.

Both are great examples of BS accusations that involved unnecessary pain for the accused and huge settlements in restitution.

[JAD]

I think you are confusing the UVA Fraternity and Duke Lacrosse cases.

Yup; I tried to Google to make sure I wasn't confused, but I didn't give my own link enough attention.

[TAZ]

The Duke lacrosse players were falsely accused and then awarded $20 million each in restitution after being exonerated. You will never eliminate all false accusations.

As for the public shaming, many times that is all that we have left. Very often the statute of limitations has expired or the cases involve pervasive sexual harassment that is not a crime. Do you have any problem with guys like Clinton being tried in the court of public opinion? I certainly don’t.

And were they wrongly raked over coal, had their lives turned upside down because of the “publicity” Rolling Stone gave them followed by the rest of the media circus??? Yes, they were.

I agree 100% that we will never be able to eliminate false accusations. People are assholes. We can however do our best to minimize the impact of false attacks. We bend over backwards making sure we don’t execute the wrong person, yet here we jump to the media blitz.

For the record I don’t like anyone being tried in the court of public opinion. The court of public opinion is nothing more than sadistic mob mentality. It’s not justice. That’s a witch hunt that can be loosed on anyone, anytime for anything. Real or perceived.

Seems like the problem we have with these low lives is how to prosecute them and we are resorting to public shaming as a last resort. That seems like bleeding someone suffering from the flu. Either we have a problem with prosecutors caving to the $$ involved with these rich folks, which should land them in a cage. Or we have an issue with how investigators go about the job. How is it that Weinstein for example had enough meat on the case to warrant prosecution all of a sudden. Why didn’t prosecutors and investigators uncover his past deeds, but instead had to have someone else shine light on it?

[Clusterfrack]

Excellent post TAZ. I agree. If the incident rises to the level of criminal, civil, or workplace violations then there are (hopefully) fair and transparent ways to evaluate the accusation. If not, then I don’t think it should merit consideration. Lots of bad things happen to people, and we can’t always make it right.

[Sensei]

Excellent post TAZ. I agree. If the incident rises to the level of criminal, civil, or workplace violations then there are (hopefully) fair and transparent ways to evaluate the accusation. If not, then I don’t think it should merit consideration. Lots of bad things happen to people, and we can’t always make it right.

Ok, so you have no opinion on Bill Clinton’s alleged rape of Wanida Broderick? How about all of the pedophiles in the Catholic Church who have gone unprosecuted and hidden by the Vatican? Their victims should not merit consideration?

Better yet, why is it only in dealing with issues of sexual misconduct that we need to suspend all reason and opinion until a “fair and transparent” (two of my favorite progressive euphemisms, BTW) process has run its course? Why not apply that standard for every type of abhorrent behavior? I mean, OJ had a fair and transparent process, but I still wouldn’t trust him around the cutlery. Does that make me a bigot?

[Clusterfrack]

All good points. I have plenty of opinions, but I don’t want opinions to replace law in our country. If anyone can say anything about anyone, how can we arrive at anything resembling fairness?

I don’t feel sorry for most of the assholes whose lives are ruined as a result of #metoo but I predict that 5 years from now, we will look back with regret. It’s going to have consequences that may not be worth the benefits.

Not everyone who deserves it can be punished. Everyone deserves a fair trial.


Ok, so you have no opinion on Bill Clinton’s alleged rape of Wanida Broderick? How about all of the pedophiles in the Catholic Church who have gone unprosecuted and hidden by the Vatican? Their victims should not merit consideration?

Better yet, why it only in dealing with issues of sexual misconduct that we need to suspend all reason and opinion until a “fair and transparent” (two of my favorite progressive euphemisms, BTW) process has run its course? Why not apply that standard for every type of abhorrent behavior? I mean, OJ had a fair and transparent process, but I still wouldn’t trust him around the cutlery. Does that make me a bigot?

[TAZ]

Ok, so you have no opinion on Bill Clinton’s alleged rape of Wanida Broderick? How about all of the pedophiles in the Catholic Church who have gone unprosecuted and hidden by the Vatican? Their victims should not merit consideration?

Better yet, why is it only in dealing with issues of sexual misconduct that we need to suspend all reason and opinion until a “fair and transparent” (two of my favorite progressive euphemisms, BTW) process has run its course? Why not apply that standard for every type of abhorrent behavior? I mean, OJ had a fair and transparent process, but I still wouldn’t trust him around the cutlery. Does that make me a bigot?

I think you’re confusing forming an opinion based on facts vs formulating an opinion on innuendo.

Should we assume that all cops are racist assholes looking to gun down black men or wait till facts show up and realize that Mike Brown was attacking a cop and got shot for his effort.

I’m preferential to fact based opinions. Sometimes it’s hard though, I admit.

I’d still like to know why, various prosecutors didn’t/couldn’t/wouldn’t unfuck these cases while a reporter could. To me, that seems to be the root we need to pull on

[NEPAKevin]

Is it possible that it may be bad to both wrongly accuse the innocent on one hand and to fail to protect victims on the other? Zero Tolerance does not work well for either side of the issue.

[Chance]

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45644374):


Comedian Bill Cosby has been sentenced to three to 10 years in state prison for sexual assault.

Cosby, 81, has also been categorised as a sexually violent predator, meaning he must undergo counselling for life and be listed on the sex offender registry.

The actor declined to make a statement when a judge gave him the opportunity.

At a retrial in April, Cosby was found guilty of three counts of sexual assault for drugging and molesting Andrea Constand in 2004.

Judge Steven O'Neill has also denied Cosby's request for bail pending appeal.

[okie john]

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45644374):

If there was ever a case where someone should go to prison for a very, very long time, then this is it.


Okie John

[NEPAKevin]

https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1053106776009310209

Or as R. Lee Ermy said in that Glock ad, "Looks like someone picked the wrong girl!"

[RoyGBiv]

https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1053106776009310209

Or as R. Lee Ermy said in that Glock ad, "Looks like someone picked the wrong girl!"

Your link didn't work for me... This one did.. https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1053106776009310209

Nice job lady! :cool:

[blues]

That was fucking awesome.

[NEPAKevin]

Your link didn't work for me... This one did.. https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1053106776009310209

Nice job lady! :cool:

Sorry. "I don't know tech stuff."

[jtcarm]

Far more effective than a hash tag.

[Robinson]

https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1053106776009310209

Or as R. Lee Ermy said in that Glock ad, "Looks like someone picked the wrong girl!"

Nice!

[TAZ]

https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1053106776009310209

Or as R. Lee Ermy said in that Glock ad, "Looks like someone picked the wrong girl!"

Probably staged, but I wish this happened far more often. She should have been a bit more aggressive with his testicles IMO. Maybe a bit if a follow up after he was down.

[ubervic]

Probably staged, but I wish this happened far more often. She should have been a bit more aggressive with his testicles IMO. Maybe a bit if a follow up after he was down.

Definitely fake/staged.

[Robinson]

Yeah now that I've watched it again, if it wasn't staged that guy has two things to be ashamed of. That's not what real violence looks like.

[blues]

There are a few "tells" that give it away...but it was still better than 90% of the crap that's out there. Plus it gave my wife a big smile.

[RoyGBiv]

There are a few "tells" that give it away...but it was still better than 90% of the crap that's out there. Plus it gave my wife a big smile.

My wife called me after boarding her flight on Friday, to tell me about the drunk douchebag coming on to her at the Admirals club in DFW before her flight. Apparently the bartender had to step in when the drunk creep couldn't take a hint. I sent her the link to that tweet. She said the other passengers looked at her strangely when she loudly celebrated the ball busting.

Thanks @NEPAKevin

[Chance]

R. Kelly finally getting his due (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47365864). About time: people have known about that sick fuck for decades.

I'd like to see Michael Jackson get the "Surviving R Kelly" treatment.

[willie]

When I first glanced at the video, momentarily I perceived a trap door and was confused why she was standing on a gallows. I've seen two in county jails left over from earlier years.

[Chance]

Someone finally came out against Uncle Joe. From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47770953):


Former Vice-President Joe Biden has denied allegations of misconduct ahead of his widely-expected announcement of a presidential run.

Lucy Flores, a former Nevada Assembly member, says Mr Biden kissed her on the back of her head at a campaign event.

"I had never experienced anything so blatantly inappropriate," she wrote.

Mr Biden said he had shown "expressions of affection" to people over the years, adding "not once - never - did I believe I acted inappropriately".

"If it is suggested I did so, I will listen respectfully," he said.

"Listen respectfully"? How many times has Both Barrels Biden been caught on camera doing exactly this?

36790

36789

[Alpha Sierra]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-accused-second-woman-improper-physical-contact

Uncle Joe is done.

His political career is like a bleeding cow in the middle of the Amazon. The piranas will be along shortly and when they're done it will be a bare skeleton sinking to the bottom of the river.