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ToddG
01-23-2012, 01:41 AM
Please read the rules (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1837-Drill-of-the-Week) before participating in this thread.

Week 17: 2-shot Draw on Two Targets
results may be posted until 11:59pm EST on Monday 30-January-2012.

Range: 5yd+
Target: two 3x5 cards
Start position: holstered
Rounds fired: 20-60

This drill was developed primarily to address the DA/SA transition for traditional double action pistols. However, it is also valid for SA, DAO, and SFA guns.

Begin holstered at 5yd. Draw and fire one shot to the first 3x5 card, keeping the trigger pulled all the way to the rear after the shot is fired. Aim at the second card, then allow the trigger forward to reset, and fire one round at the second card. Repeat for a total of ten pairs (20 shots). Compare the group size/location between your first card (which should be ten single shots from the draw) and your second card (which should be ten single shots from reset).

If you got all your hits on both cards at 5yd, repeat the process at 7yd.
If you score 100% hits at 7yd, increase to 10yd and repeat again.

The primary goal for this drill is to make the shooter aware of the difference between the trigger's movement from rest (fully forward) and from reset (fully back). If the two 3x5 cards at a given distance look substantially different (e.g., if one card has all hits and the other has many misses; or, one has a centered group and the other is grouped low left), then you know that you're doing something different in the way you manipulate the trigger when transitioning from first shot to follow-up shots.



If you cannot draw from the holster, instead begin from a ready position.



Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

starting position (ready position, open holster, retention holster, or concealed)
number of misses for each card at 5yd
number of misses for each card at 7yd (if scored 100% at 5yd)
number of misses for each card at 10yd (if scored 100% at 7yd)


Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

EmanP
01-23-2012, 02:17 PM
No time limit? Take all the time you want? Seems beyond simple, and predictable.

C45P312
01-23-2012, 02:44 PM
Starting position G17 in 6004 shot right after DotW 16

• 5yd no misses
• 7yd no misses
• 10yds -1 (first shot at first card @ 10 yards)

ToddG
01-23-2012, 04:12 PM
No time limit? Take all the time you want? Seems beyond simple, and predictable.

It's not supposed to be a challenge, it's supposed to be a learning experience.

My results from today...

5yd: clean on both cards; groups were fairly similar but a couple of flyers on the first card compared to the second

7yd: missed the first card once; group size was tight on second card but inexplicably loose on the first with a number of low shots; my rough guess is that all the laser shooting I've done recently has me staying focused on the target a little too long when going at medium speed.

joshs
01-23-2012, 04:47 PM
I had one miss on card 2 at 10 yards. My card 2 groups were also noticeable tighter. It was very awkward keeping the trigger all the way to the rear instead of resetting in recoil.

Mr_White
01-23-2012, 05:18 PM
Start position: AIWB concealed with a closed-front shirt (containing the usual stock Gen3 G34 with Defoor sights.)
5 yard targets: 100% hits, zero misses*
7 yard targets: 100% hits, zero misses*
10 yard targets: 90% hits, one miss per target.

At all three distances, I drew to the left target and transitioned to the right target.

5 yard target:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7020/6751189127_788436ed6a.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6751189127/) DotW17_5yds (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6751189127/) by OrigamiAK (http://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

7 yard target:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7158/6751189577_796a07f856.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6751189577/) DotW17_7yds (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6751189577/) by OrigamiAK (http://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

10 yard target:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/6751188863_b4e6db87f2.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6751188863/) DotW17_10yds (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6751188863/) by OrigamiAK (http://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

*I nearly pulled shots off the card at both 5 and 7 yards due to jerking the trigger. I was secretly hoping to overachieve on this one and take it out to an unscheduled string at 15 yards. But, my 100% hits did not extend through the 10 yard line. I am happy enough with how I did (as in I don’t have to hate myself over this one.)

To the learning point of the drill, I think that the difference between the results on the draw target and the transition target is from doing a very slow hybrid pressout-type thing on the draw target, and stopping the gun more consistently and fully on the transition target. But I jerked the trigger on both.

Mr_White
01-23-2012, 05:22 PM
my rough guess is that all the laser shooting I've done recently has me staying focused on the target a little too long when going at medium speed.

Sounds like you shot this drill with iron sights, is that right?

ToddG
01-23-2012, 05:24 PM
Sounds like you shot this drill with iron sights, is that right?

Yes.

JFK
01-23-2012, 07:23 PM
I was happy with my performance on this one. I shot it after doing the bullseye three ways (horrible performance)

Start position: AIWB no concealment, HK P30
5 yard targets: 100% hits, zero misses
7 yard targets: 100% hits, zero misses
10 yard targets: 80% hits, one miss on one three miss on two.

EmanP
01-23-2012, 11:43 PM
Concealed G17

5yds 100%
7yds Missed the very first shot way high. Yanked another one barely hanging on towards the end.

I shot them all left to right. So one thing that was funny, at 5yds the first card engaged had a one hole group, granted it was a big hole, and the second card was lose but formed a semi-circle with the middle solid. At 7 yards, the exact opposite happened. The first card had most all it's rounds go around the main hole and the second card had most rounds fill the middle. I'm not sure why.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg828/scaled.php?server=828&filename=20120123161042.jpg&res=medium

BN
01-24-2012, 02:22 PM
Start concealed under a heavy winter coat. It's still cold in Ohio. ;)

5 yards. 2 misses low left on card one. I had all hits on card 2, 7 of the hits were in one hole.

I went on to 7 yards even though I had misses. I wanted to see what I could do.

7 yards. all hits on both cards. Again, card 2 had 7 bullets in one hole.

I've got a terrible trigger snatch that doesn't show up as a bad thing when shooting at a huge IDPA target. :(

JV_
01-25-2012, 07:47 PM
Holstered (CCC Shaggy/Glock 17 EXO/Untucked Polo)

Clean @ 5Y
Clean @ 7Y
Clean @ 10Y

CCT125US
01-25-2012, 10:49 PM
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/CCT125US/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-01-25_200902.jpg

HK P30 V3 with new springs which I will discuss at a later date...... after my trigger pull gauge shows up and I can give data instead of random bitching.

From under a Hoodie. Drew to left card. Groups tend to drift to 10:30, this was confirmed at 25 yds.

5 yds clean
7 yds clean
10 yds clean
13 yds pulled one per card

JConn
01-26-2012, 07:54 AM
Holstered (gen 3 g19, shaggy, polo)

5 yds - clean
7 yds - clean
10 yds - dropped one low on each card. Anticipation.

jthhapkido
01-26-2012, 10:00 AM
Well, that was quick.

Gen4 G17, AIWB Archangel, closed-front coat
cards left/right, about 8 inches between them (no pictures)
Shot right first, then left

5 yards: clean
7 yards: pulled my first shot out of the whole thing. [sigh] Rest were fine at that distance.

There was no particular pattern in the hits, really. For the 5 yard set, I managed to keep myself from trying to get the shot off quickly, which is why I didn't pull one until the 7-yard set. First one at 7 yards, drew and quickly yanked one about half an inch low. (Which also explains a lot of my FAST drill results.)

Went back to careful fire, and the rest were fine.

MD7305
01-26-2012, 03:11 PM
Glock 23 Gen.4, CCC Shaggy, concealed under an untucked, buttoned shirt. Timer signal for draw.
5 Yards- 100%, tight groups in the center of the card.
7 Yards - 95% - one miss left on the first card my second draw. Card number two was clean. Both cards consisted of tight groups.

Glock 22 Gen.4, CCC Shaggy, concealed under an untucked buttoned shirt. Timer signal for draw.
5 Yards - 100%, tight groups but seem to be in a vertical pattern. The second card has a much tighter group than card one.
7 Yards - 95% - one miss left on the first card on my 5 draw. Second card was clean, very tight group (2").

Sig 229 .40, Safariland 070 SSIII, duty gear with closed mag carrier. Timer signal for draw.
5 Yards - 100%. Card one and two have tight groups, center of the card.
7 Yards - 100%. Card one had to hits close to the edge of the card. Card two remained tight.
10 Yards - 75% (The wheels fell off here). Card one had an open group with one shot (3rd draw I think) missing left. Card two was all over the place with 4 misses, all stung vertical about 1/8" right of the card.

A common theme I found was that my card two groups were tighter than my card one groups. I imagine I'm taking more time on the second card than the first. I enjoyed the drill and probably introduce it to my department's drill book.

jetfire
01-26-2012, 08:55 PM
Glock 21 in OWB holster concealed under IDPA vest.

5 yards - clean
7 yards - clean
10 yards - clean

Got bored after that. Groups were identical on both cards. I attribute this entirely to how much dry fire time I do just playing with the reset on my guns.

MEH
01-27-2012, 03:58 PM
Glock 19 (borrowed, thanks JV)

5 yards - clean
7 yards - clean
10 yards - dropped 1

BaiHu
01-27-2012, 05:27 PM
I had a guy talking to me for too long and the light was starting to go on me, so I shot this faster than I would've liked. Perhaps, when I get more time over the next two days, I'll shoot this again along with DOTW 16 that I missed :(

Start position: HKP30L, OWB CompTac Straight Drop under an unzipped jacket.
Left Target was DA and Right was SA
5 yard targets: 0 misses. Left side was a straight 2" line up and down in the middle of the card. Right side was a 1.5 tight circle at top middle. I tend to aim high on 3X5 cards.
7 yard targets: 0 misses. Left side was a little more spread out than the right and neither group was as good as the 5 yd.
10 yard targets: 2 misses on the left and 1 miss on the right. I'm definitely feeling pressed for time, so I was making my draw and 2 shots in about to 5-6 seconds. My left card was starting to drift towards 10:30, with 2 shots just off the edge by about 1/4 inch to the 11:00 region. My right card was center and 12:00 on the card with a decent group.

rsa-otc
01-27-2012, 08:51 PM
Hot dam my range is back in operation and I'm back in the game!

Last week I spent my time recording some scores for the performance challenge and this week I had time for the DotW.

Gun: M&P 45, 230 Grain LRN Reloads
Holster & Concealmet: OWB 4 O'clock under open front shirt.

3x5's shot left side first then right side.

5 Yards: top set of targets in the picture. All on target

7 Yards: Lower set of targets in the picture: All On target

12 or more yards: Had to move the targets out past 10 yards for lighting purposes. I couldn't see the gray 3 x 5s in the shadows at 10 yards. This distance was shot on the same lower 3x5's as 7 yards. First shot on the Right target a tad high. 6th shot on the right target a bit low. Otherwise all others hit the 3x5's

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z417/rsa-otc/2012-01-27_17-46-58_366.jpg

As you can see all shots from press-out are pretty much centered, but the 2nd shots made on the right 3x5 for the most part is a tad right and lower. I think as I'm breaking the 2nd shot the momentum from transversing left to right and recovering from recoil is effecting my point of impact.

Kimura
01-27-2012, 09:54 PM
Smith and Wesson 645 in a thumb break holster under an open light jacket.

5 yds- Clean
7 yds-Clean
10 yds-1 miss

Good exercise for me to work on prepping the trigger of a DA/SA from draw.

zml342
01-28-2012, 09:02 AM
Starting position: P30 V3 strong side concealed

5 yd: clean
7 yd: clean
10 yd: clean

CraigBos
01-30-2012, 12:32 AM
Start position: Ready position
5 yard targets: Clean, similar groups
7 yard targets: -2 first card, -5 second card

At 7 yards, my second card group drifted down and to the right (I'm left-handed). More dry fire practice needed.

Thanks for the drill!

Ptrlcop
01-30-2012, 01:32 AM
G17

5yds Clean if you dont count an AD(Still on the cardboard) I had during one of the transitions. I reset under recoil but tried to stop myself and put a round into the cardboard between the 3X5s
7yds Clean
10yds Clean

At 5 there was not much difference in my groups, at 7 and 10 my first shot groups were bigger and the second shot were in 1 1.5inch hole. I felt like I had a greater level of attention on the second shots.

Corey
01-30-2012, 03:10 PM
Start Position: Concealed
5 yards, -0
7 yards, -0
10 yards, -0

I admit to taking full advantage of the no time limit rule, but I did make sure and do a good press out, working on breaking my shot as soon as I reached full extension. I noticed more vertical stringing of the groups on the first shot target then the second shot target, but still had all the hits. I also shot this drill with a 1911 so there was not much difference in the trigger pulls. When I get my M&P back from Smith & Wesson I will try this drill again a few times.

DocGKR
01-30-2012, 07:48 PM
M&P45 w/RMR02 in a OWB Comptac belt holster at 3 o'clock concealed under a soft shell TNF jacket.

5 yd: no misses
7 yd: no misses
10 yd: no misses
12 yd: no misses
15 yd: no misses
20 yd: 1 miss (less than 1/4" low)

Love the slow-fire, no time limit! Shots on first target had a round shape dispersion, while the shots on the second target had a narrow width, but more vertical stringing.

fuse
01-30-2012, 08:47 PM
G17, shaggy, hoodie.

5 yards clean

7 yards 1 miss

I did not take advantage of the no time limit. Actually, having just practiced the ihack, I was definitely going quickly. I did not like manipulating the trigger in this manner. Seemed to cause the 2nd round shots to group low.

LittleLebowski
01-30-2012, 09:18 PM
Shot it clean from 5 yards using G19 from concealed AIWB. Noticed I was hitting high on the right hand target.

Dropped one on the left and three on the right (all high misses) at 7 yards.