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justcor
01-21-2012, 08:46 PM
So I have been stuck recently trying to get my reloads under 2.8-3.0sec in dry practice. I am a bit frustrated with my progress so I thought I would record a couple and post them up for comments.

Gear is as follows:

Holster: CCC Shaggy
Pistol: G19 w/Vickers mag release
Mag pouch: JM Custom Kydex (http://www.jmcustomkydex.com/)

It appears I'm not getting the pistol up high enough so I'm having to look down. Also I think I need to work on bringing the pistol in a bit more so I will be able to index my elbow the same way every time.

Reload Frontal View

http://vimeo.com/35442220

Reload Side View

http://vimeo.com/35442212

Since I was recording I did one of a draw as well. Please feel free to comment. This is the first time I have seen my draw and it would appear that my press out needs some work. It also appears that I am not getting the gun up high enough on the draw stroke.

Draw frontal view

http://vimeo.com/35441873

Draw side view

http://vimeo.com/35441921

Sparks2112
01-22-2012, 12:16 AM
You'll save a bit of time if you get the pistol up in your face more during your reload. Also, try using the slide release to drop the slide. It's certainly quicker if you can hit it. Buy some snap caps to load your mag with so the slide will actually drop if you hit the release.

As far as your draw goes I can't comment, I'm not a press out guy. Looks way cleaner than mine. :-)

justcor
01-22-2012, 10:53 AM
You'll save a bit of time if you get the pistol up in your face more during your reload. Also, try using the slide release to drop the slide. It's certainly quicker if you can hit it. Buy some snap caps to load your mag with so the slide will actually drop if you hit the release.

As far as your draw goes I can't comment, I'm not a press out guy. Looks way cleaner than mine. :-)
Thanks for the reply. I think after watching the footage a few more times it seems that when I'm bringing the gun back into my workspace my offhand lingers for a second. I think I need to move my offhand off the gun as it starts moving back to my workspace and go straight to my mag pouch as my firing hand finishes bringing the gun in to my workspace and presses the mag release. Also if I bring the pistol back higher I will be able to see the mag well without having to look down. This should help in reducing bobbles.

In fact I took a paint pen to the magwell and marked the outside part so I should be able to see it as an aid to proper insertion.
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/justcor1/89e190c1.jpg

ToddG
01-22-2012, 11:06 AM
I don't know who promulgates that reload so heavily, but your issue isn't that the gun is too low. It's:

The gun is being brought up to an angle too steep to accept a smooth insertion of the magazine, which also means you're moving the gun up and back more than necessary, and
You're racking the slide instead of using the slide release, which is always going to be slower.

JodyH
01-22-2012, 11:13 AM
I don't know who promulgates that reload so heavily, but your issue isn't that the gun is too low. It's:

The gun is being brought up to an angle too steep to accept a smooth insertion of the magazine, which also means you're moving the gun up and back more than necessary, and

This.
Been there done that, had the slow reload to prove it.

Also, move your hands faster.
Work on moving your hand as fast as possible to the magazine.
Pause just long enough to get a solid index on the mag.
Now move your magazine as fast as possible to the gun.
Pause just long enough to verify alignment and send it home.

There's a lot of time to be saved by learning how to shift gears throughout a manipulation.
Same with the draw and press out.

LOKNLOD
01-22-2012, 11:26 AM
Have you tried to stop being left-handed? :p

I was going to say the same thing about the slide release vs. the overhand rack, but with a Glock left-handed that can be easier said than done.

I know there are techniques, but not sure if any are a notable improvement over the rack.

The efficiency of motion points that Todd and Jody made about angle, handspeed, etc. are probably going to net the biggest improvement on the reload.

Edited to add: Looking at it again...I think the rather severe angle is partially a symptom of how far you've got to rotate the gun to manipulate the mag release with your trigger finger.

Sparks2112
01-22-2012, 12:01 PM
Have you tried to stop being left-handed? :p

I was going to say the same thing about the slide release vs. the overhand rack, but with a Glock left-handed that can be easier said than done.

I know there are techniques, but not sure if any are a notable improvement over the rack.

The efficiency of motion points that Todd and Jody made about angle, handspeed, etc. are probably going to net the biggest improvement on the reload.


Wow, I really wasn't paying as much attention as I should.

justcor
01-23-2012, 01:00 AM
Thanks for all the replies and constructive feedback. I will incorporate some of these suggestions into my routine.

NickDrak
01-23-2012, 02:36 AM
I had been one that was stuck on using the support hand in the over-hand grasp technique because of some training I received in the police academy and early in my formal training career based on the "fine vs gross motor skills" theory.

Once I took a serious look at my reload times at speed, I found that I was whiffing/missing a full grip over the top of the slide far too frequently. Alittle over a year ago I decided to use the slide stop lever to release the slide and seriously have not had an issue hitting the slide stop at all during my reloads. For me using the slide stop has been faster and more consistent than grabbing the slide.

Get the Vickers slide stop lever and try it. Your reload times will drop noticeably.

TSean
01-24-2012, 04:50 PM
justcor,

ToddG and JodyH had good advice. Without piggy backing too much, I thought I would attach links to two videos on shooting a pistol (Glock) lefty that pretty much cover your options re: manipulations. Good luck with your continued training.

One from ssdsurf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1kWoKTUPf4

One from Grey Group Training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A0eJtDz1l4

Wendell
01-24-2012, 11:06 PM
Have you tried to stop being left-handed? :p

I was going to say the same thing about the slide release vs. the overhand rack, but with a Glock left-handed that can be easier said than done.

I know there are techniques, but not sure if any are a notable improvement over the rack...

Aaron Roberts demonstrated use of the (weak-hand) middle finger to pull down on the Glock slide stop. It works.

I don't think the left-handed issue is much of an issue at all.

jthhapkido
01-25-2012, 01:19 PM
My thoughts, as a left-handed person:

For lefties with Glocks:
1) Get the extended mag release. You won't have the "didn't mean to actuate it" problem that right-handers have, and it makes manipulation MUCH easier.

2) Drop the mag out as fast as you can while retracting the gun from extension while keeping it so the mag falls straight down. (You see a LOT of people who pull the gun in, cant it, and then try to have gravity drop the mag. Mostly, it works---but you don't want to rely on "mostly" in a serious situation. In addition, waiting until the gun is retracted means that the old mag may not be out of the way before the new mag is being inserted, which is rather a problem.)

3) As people have said, don't cant the gun (and turn it sideways) nearly so much to insert the new mag. The turn does nothing other than take longer (both to get there and to return to target) and the extreme cant means you have to move your arm farther from the direct line between the mag and the gun. One method is to index your shooting elbow on your body, and point the empty magwell at where your new mag will be coming from---then turn it only just enough to see the opposite inner side of the magwell with your eyes (keeping the gun at eye level--this will only be a tiny amount). This minimizes direct movement, keeps it linear, and means that all manipulation is done in a line between you and your target--so that when you are done, you can press back out to the target with minimal movement. And you can see the whole thing, including seeing the mag into the magwell.

4) In order of increasing speed, the methods to use for dropping the slide on a reload are: rack with weak hand, reach under and pull the release with the weak hand, and load and operate the release with the strong hand trigger finger. They all have issues, so you'll have to argue with your own values as to which you'll go with. Rack is most reliable, trigger finger loading/release is by FAR the fastest.

As a personal comment on that last---I used to use the "reach under" method, and had decent reloads from concealment (not great, but decent) in the 2.40-2.50 range. And I hated the idea of the trigger finger loading method, because I tried it and it didn't work for me. That was a year or two ago.

I have since tried it again, actually performing enough practice to make it work---and my reloads have dropped to a consistent easy <2.00 s from concealment, with actual shot times closer to 1.8 and 1.9. Half a second is significant in terms of reload time! Occasionally I screw up the reload---but hitting it with the finger again to make the slide drop adds less than half a second of time, so even a bad reload is still at worst the same amount of time compared to what I used to do.

YMMV, of course. :)

BaiHu
01-27-2012, 09:26 PM
I don't know who promulgates that reload so heavily, but your issue isn't that the gun is too low. It's:

The gun is being brought up to an angle too steep to accept a smooth insertion of the magazine, which also means you're moving the gun up and back more than necessary, and
You're racking the slide instead of using the slide release, which is always going to be slower.


Todd,

Can you clarify the reloads for me? I have learned muzzle up and "palm towards your face" with the elbow more towards the center of the belly and mag well pointed toward weak side/mag pouch as I reload. The rationale I believe, b/c I was taught by ex-mil guys, was to ingrain the movement they use in 'stacking'. The muzzle is down in 'sul' position, up while moving upstairs or 'fixing a problem' and reloading, or it is pointed out at a BG. This is my understanding and not written in stone.

It seems like you are making a distinction b/w what I said above and what I'm about to describe-hopefully this will be accurate-which is what you are advocating. Coming from a right-handed shooter, my elbow would come down on my strong side ribs, my muzzle pointed in the general direction of the BG, my mag well toward my left foot and I proceed from reload to press out.

Am I describing these differences correctly? If so, is this second method 'a problem' if I'm in a combat situation where I have friendlies near and yet I'm reloading and possibly muzzling someone?

JodyH
01-28-2012, 02:41 PM
I don't know who promulgates that reload so heavily, but your issue isn't that the gun is too low. It's:

The gun is being brought up to an angle too steep to accept a smooth insertion of the magazine, which also means you're moving the gun up and back more than necessary, and
You're racking the slide instead of using the slide release, which is always going to be slower.

I know several instructors who teach the reload that way.
Their reasoning is that it helps the shooter keep their head up to maintain situational awareness.
But much like teaching "draw by the numbers" and "shoot to reset" the exaggerated heads up reload works great at getting the fundamental concepts across to beginners at the expense of introducing errors once those people start reaching higher skill levels.

JodyH
01-28-2012, 02:51 PM
Todd,

Can you clarify the reloads for me? I have learned muzzle up and "palm towards your face" with the elbow more towards the center of the belly and mag well pointed toward weak side/mag pouch as I reload. The rationale I believe, b/c I was taught by ex-mil guys, was to ingrain the movement they use in 'stacking'. The muzzle is down in 'sul' position, up while moving upstairs or 'fixing a problem' and reloading, or it is pointed out at a BG. This is my understanding and not written in stone.

It seems like you are making a distinction b/w what I said above and what I'm about to describe-hopefully this will be accurate-which is what you are advocating. Coming from a right-handed shooter, my elbow would come down on my strong side ribs, my muzzle pointed in the general direction of the BG, my mag well toward my left foot and I proceed from reload to press out.

Am I describing these differences correctly? If so, is this second method 'a problem' if I'm in a combat situation where I have friendlies near and yet I'm reloading and possibly muzzling someone?
I'm not Todd, but what you are describing is the difference between what I was initially taught (look through the trigger guard) and the method I now do after attending Todd's class and being corrected (muzzle on target, mag well aimed at mag carrier, which would be 11:30 in my case).

As to muzzle direction on the reload.
You JUST emptied a magazine in that direction and you're doing a speed reload so you can shoot more rounds in that direction.
Friendlies don't tend to wander around between a shooter and the threat.
Muzzle on the threat during the reload is about the safest direction possible IMO.

BaiHu
01-28-2012, 06:44 PM
I'm not Todd, but what you are describing is the difference between what I was initially taught (look through the trigger guard) and the method I now do after attending Todd's class and being corrected (muzzle on target, mag well aimed at mag carrier, which would be 11:30 in my case).

As to muzzle direction on the reload.
You JUST emptied a magazine in that direction and you're doing a speed reload so you can shoot more rounds in that direction.
Friendlies don't tend to wander around between a shooter and the threat.
Muzzle on the threat during the reload is about the safest direction possible IMO.

I figured that might be the case, but you know what they say about assuming -LOL.
Thanks JodyH!

Surf
01-29-2012, 01:08 AM
Just to speak towards the rigid muzzle up, close to the face reload, I completely agree that it is very much a time wasting movement but more important for my purposes, if you happen to be working with a partner or perhaps in a team environment maybe using a position of cover, the muzzle up technique will invariably muzzle others, especially in a stacked high / low, or even side by side position, especially when the person doing the reload takes a knee and points the muzzle in an upward direction perhaps pointed slightly to the side. For this reason alone it pretty much disqualifies it as an acceptable technique. Now I know that not everyone may work or shoot in that environment, but in reality keeping the muzzle in a more downrange orientation is not only safer but it contributes to a faster reload. Yes I have heard most of the arguments about rigidity, repeatability, moving and reloading etc, etc, but in my practical experiences it does not hold water for various reasons.

Weapon slightly depressed just below line of sight, slight bend in the elbow bringing weapon inbound, palm upward, muzzle still oriented in the downrange direction. Offers a clear view or magwell and ideal angle for magazine insertion. Avert eye sight and look at the weapon just prior to magazine insertion and "watch" the magazine into the weapon. Slide stop as a release is preferable.

BaiHu
01-29-2012, 08:27 PM
Surf,

At the risk of over analyzing, when you refer to palms up and muzzle down range, do you mean your palm is completely up as if I could hold water in the center of my palm or more in a 45 degree fashion where the water could slide out toward my weak side foot?

I'm in the throws of trying to learn the right way before I develop bad repetitions.

Thanks.

jstyer
02-11-2012, 09:31 AM
Thanks for bringing up these question baihu! These are all stuff that has been on my mind and I've been reading this thread with interest.

Surf
02-12-2012, 02:13 PM
Surf,

At the risk of over analyzing, when you refer to palms up and muzzle down range, do you mean your palm is completely up as if I could hold water in the center of my palm or more in a 45 degree fashion where the water could slide out toward my weak side foot?

I'm in the throws of trying to learn the right way before I develop bad repetitions.

Thanks.Hey Baihu, sorry about the delay in response but I have been pretty busy at work but I figured since you waited I would make up for it with a video on my thoughts on the reload. Again this is only my opinion. Oh and don't worry about getting in depth when analyzing things as I do just that. :)

My thoughts on the "palm up" reload. I also discuss pro's and con's of other techniques commonly used.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMDmxKju0dM&feature=channel_video_title

mscott327
02-12-2012, 09:03 PM
Being left handed, I found it easier to drop the slide release with my right middle finger. After I insert the magazine, I simply slide my right hand under the gun and release the slide stop with the middle finger.

BaiHu
02-20-2012, 10:43 PM
My thoughts on the "palm up" reload. I also discuss pro's and con's of other techniques commonly used.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMDmxKju0dM&feature=channel_video_title

Surf,

Sorry it took me so long to reply to your answer, I lost sight of this thread for a while :o

Thanks again for another great video breakdown of your skill set and thought process behind it, that gives me a lot of food for thought and plenty of practice to be doing.

jstyer
05-14-2012, 12:21 PM
I'm gonna resurrect this old thread...

Here's a short video of me doing a draw and reload. This is at 7 yards on a 3x5. Par time is set to five seconds. This run is a good example of my 90% hits speed. I've found it fairly easy to scale up the speed on my draw when I'm switching to high probability targets, but my reload always seems slow... I was sitting right around 2.2 and I recently installed a grip plug and my reloads are now consistently around 2.0-1.8 but it feels like there's some time to pick up there.

Things I notice, or I think I notice are:

My hand looks slow when moving from gun to magazine and from magazine back to gun.
Press Out after the reload looks rushed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qPhRzZoGDM

Advice? Thoughts?

justcor
09-23-2012, 03:33 PM
So it has been awhile since I had posted to this thread. I have had some health issues mainly tendinitis in my weak hand which had really set back my shooting. Many thanks to Nelson 45R (http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?73-45R) for his professional assistance over the past 5-6 months to get me back almost where I was 6 months ago. I could not hold a cup of coffee in my weak hand without extreme pain after the AFHF class in March. With Nelson's assistance my strength in my weak hand is close to where it was and I'm on a program using the CoC (Caption of Crush) grips a couple of times a week to increase my grip strength.

I got a chance to get a FAST run on video today and had a chance to look at my reloads. This reload was 2.63 not a best time for me but is in the ballpark for my skill set today. I would have to say a good reload for me is about 2.25-2.30 in live fire so the question is what can I do to clean this up form wise? It appears I'm still tilting the pistol to far which was my problem from a few months ago but I would like to hear what you have to say. As a lefty I'm reaching under the pistol to hit the slide stop which is costing me maybe .1-.2seconds over a right handed operator. I have played with my strong side index finger and sweeping the slide stop as recommended by a few others but gave it up in favor for reaching under with my weak hand.

Here is a side view of the run.

https://vimeo.com/50020094

This is a POV of the same run. You can see the pistol cocked at an angle that looks to be to far.

https://vimeo.com/50020229

So I'd like to hear your comments on what I might do. I know with dry fire practice and 2-R-2 drills I can get my times down but after looking at the video today I think I need to think about how I'm tilting the pistol during reload.