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Keebsley
03-07-2011, 12:42 PM
So I've gotten into our firearms instructor course but have a slight issue with the 25 yard support hand barricade part of the qualification course. I wasn't quite sure whether to place this in Drills and Practice so I put it here.

Besides constant dry fire practice to get the finer parts of trigger control under wraps and besides practicing firing from 25 yards support hand, are there any other methods or things that I can do to improve my support hand shots at distance?

TCinVA
03-07-2011, 12:49 PM
Try to use the barricade to your maximum advantage to steady yourself...then it's just a matter of concentrating on good sight alignment and a good trigger press.

Rverdi
03-07-2011, 03:44 PM
Two things I would give some thought to.
First, is the value of 25 yard non dominant hand shooting. It is such an unlikely scenario that I would have to master virtually every other aspect of my shooting before I'd spend time and ammo on it. Also, for many years police departments had officers shooting two hand support hand from the non-dominant side of a barricade based on the mistaken belief that it was a better use of cover. Thankfully many states, including mine, now have officers shoot around the non-dominant side using their dominant hand and have moved non dominant hand shooting to closer distances and do it non dominant only.
For the second poster, be careful using a barricade as a shooting aid. When reality bites we have no idea what may be available to us. If our goal is to master a 25 yard shot, then it should be unsupported.

TCinVA
03-07-2011, 03:58 PM
I agree with the non-dominant hand stuff in theory, but it sounds like he's shooting part of a mandated qual...so he's stuck doing it whether it makes any objective sense or not.

Rverdi
03-07-2011, 04:07 PM
Yeah, I can see that but support hand or not he should stay off that barricade.

Chipster
03-07-2011, 11:53 PM
I have to agree with Rich on this one. You never know whether the barrier will be a solid steel I beam or some contraption put together on wheels with 2X4's and some OSB. My state (IN) mandates the same course of fire and I just learned to forget the barricade and concentrate on the fundamentals and was able to pass the course just fine. Start at 7 yards and just keep working it until you feel confident taking the shots at 25 yards. I doubt you will burn-up more than 500 rounds of ammunition before you got it. You wouldn't be in the running for instructor if you weren't fundamentally sound already. Another thing that helped me was because it was a state mandated course, anything in the 8 ring of the B-27 was considered "perfect" and scored 5 points.

Keebsley
03-08-2011, 09:02 AM
I agree with the non-dominant hand stuff in theory, but it sounds like he's shooting part of a mandated qual...so he's stuck doing it whether it makes any objective sense or not.

That's correct. It's part of our POST course that we fire support hand from the barricade at 25 yards.

Now, I can see the benefits to both thought processes of practicing at the 7 or practicing at the 25. At the 7, I'd focus more on sights and trigger press and then gain confidence to be able to do the same at any distance. At the same time, I've heard the flip side of that argument in that if I can do it from the 25, then anything inside of 25 would be a cake walk.

What are everyone else's train of thoughts? I'll train for everything regardless but just curious as to how to maximize my time. Thanks all.

ToddG
03-08-2011, 09:15 AM
Setting aside the practicality of WHO 25yd bullseye shooting...

Improve it the same way you improved your 2H 25yd bullseye shooting. Don't overcomplicate it. Work on the fundamentals and extend your range incrementally.

Keebsley
05-29-2011, 10:51 AM
Update:

Considering I forgot that I posted this thread, just an update.

I passed and qualified and am now a POST certified firearms instructor. I had my issues throughout the entire week long course, had my good days and bad days, but eventually pulled my shit together. Had some epiphanies while doing various drills, during the low light/night shoot, and learned some things.

Thanks for the suggestions and advice. Still have a lot to learn and practice.

Bill Lance
05-29-2011, 11:40 AM
Update:

Had some epiphanies while doing various drills, during the low light/night shoot, and learned some things.
.

Maybe you can share an epiphany or two...:cool:

Thanks---and CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

Bill

Keebsley
05-29-2011, 03:08 PM
Maybe you can share an epiphany or two...:cool:

Thanks---and CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

Bill

Let's see...some epiphanies...

1) I never quite understood why certain people had all blacked out sights. Now I do because apparently I can't hit jack shit at distance with stock Glock sights. I also apparently can't hit shit very well with the rear blacked out all the way either. Both front and rear sights blacked out? Apparently I can. I don't know exactly what I was doing but I couldn't for the life of me shoot a group at 25 and 50 yards. It was bad when the head instructor looks at your target, you, the target, you and then replies, "You might want to put the shotgun away and get the pistol back out." Again, I'm not sure what was going on because I was focusing on the front sight, fundamentals "appeared" okay from everyone else's view that watched me shoot but things didn't come together until I blacked out both the front and rear sight with a sharpie.

2) In low light conditions, people tend to shoot better because they don't have any other external visual distractions so their focus is better on their sights and front sight.

3) This was my first time actually exposed to using a grip around the slide or a thumb behind the slide of a Glock to keep it in battery while doing contact shots. Afterwards, a tap/rack and movement to get back in the fight.

4) Stance doesn't matter. Weave/Isocoles...whatever. In a gunfight, you'll be in a stance that doesn't even have a name. Both have disadvantages and advantages. Find what works for you but don't get tied up around the axel about it. Head instructor is a plank owner in Hojutsu and Combat Marksmanship and proscribes the Weaver stance. I'm not a fan and shoot more Isocoles. It doesn't matter. If you can perform on demand the task at hand and get good hits on time while on one leg with your left arm behind your back? Good on you.

5) It was taught to me by Mr. Grumpy last year at an EAG course and was reinforced here: when you draw, focus where you want the round to go. Most of the time, the rounds will go where or close to where you wanted them to go as the pistol and sights will come into your sight.

I'm sure there are more but currently at work so...

Bill Lance
05-29-2011, 09:37 PM
Thanks----very good summation.




Mr. Grumpy-----:eek:
Hi Pat.

41magfan
05-31-2011, 08:22 AM
25 yard support hand shots from a barricade have little relevance to any real world application of a handgun, but when in Rome – act Roman.

The vast majority of qualification COF’s bear little resemblance to reality anyway, so do the only reasonable thing and “game it”. Dismiss any tendency to “tactically” perform on this stage and use a stance and barricade support position that best maximizes your probability of making good hits. Like any good gamesman, use the allotted time allowed to your benefit.

It's been my experience that attempting to blend tactics into any standard measure of proficiency is fairly useless, and those that can’t differentiate between the two tasks don’t generally perform their best in either context.