My New Strange Grip?

[randyflycaster]

I've been struggling with my shooting for some time now. I'm a left-handed shooter. My shots drift to the right. I've read 4 books on shooting and watched many videos. Still my shots drifted. One of the problems I had was that my support hand kept drifting forward and off the gun, even though I put rubber grips on my gun.

Last week for some reason I moved my support-hand thumb from the side of the frame to the back of the gun: below the beavertail, and below the base of my strong-hand thumb. Suddenly I felt I had a much better grip. I shot some rounds and my support hand didn't slip forward, and my shots were right on.

Yesterday I shot about a hundred rounds with my support-hand thumb on the side of the frame. Again my shots drifted and my support hand kept slipping, so I again tried my new "thumb behind the gun" grip, and again my shots were right on.

I've never heard of this kind of grip. I'm curious to know why.

Thanks,

Randy

[spinmove_]

I’m having a hard time picturing how you’re putting your Support hand thumb “behind” the gun. Any pics to illustrate?


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[blues]

I’m having a hard time picturing how you’re putting your Support hand thumb “behind” the gun. Any pics to illustrate?


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I'm thinking he's referring to something akin to this grip method which many used with revolvers years ago:

https://assets.shootingillustrated.com/media/1535905/crossed-thumbs.jpg?preset=article

[Robinson]

Your new strange grip feels stronger/more secure because you are relying on having your thumbs wrapped around opposite sides of the pistol grip. It's sort of like holding a baseball bat only with both hands at the same place.

This indicates to me that you should consider everything about your grip and technique together. When shooting, how are your arms positioned? Are you using the rest of your upper body to help or just relying on hand strength? Are you allowing your upper body to lean back (not good)?

If you use a grip technique such as the one shown in the video in the thread linked below you should not have trouble with your support hand slipping.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28426-Support-hand-(L-hand)-placement

[randyflycaster]

21459

Good video, but nothing I haven't seen before. I also don't enjoy shooting for very long using a death grip, as I find it very tiring. Shannon Smith doesn't use a death grip, and I tried to model my grip after his.

[scjbash]

Kelley mentions Vogel in that video so I'll add this video with Vogel explaining his grip as well. Using Vogel's technique of torquing the gun over with both hands helped me tremendously when I was having problems keeping my support hand on the gun due to injury.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45QhpvY9LZc

[spinmove_]

21459

Good video, but nothing I haven't seen before. I also don't enjoy shooting for very long using a death grip, as I find it very tiring. Shannon Smith doesn't use a death grip, and I tried to model my grip after his.

Yeah, I wouldn’t do that. You may not have your thumb in a position to get hit by the slide right now, but what happens if you start moving, shooting faster, sweaty hands, etc?

Sounds to me like your new technique feels new and you’re gripping harder with your left hand by doing that vs how you were gripping it before. Regardless of if it feels like you’re gripping harder or not. This is evidenced by your shots going where you want them to go as the gun takes the path of least resistance. If you weren’t gripping harder, your shots would be going right again.

Work on gripping harder with your support hand in dry fire A LOT. You don’t have to death grip it, but if you pay attention, you can catch yourself not gripping as hard as you should be.


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[Robinson]

Good video, but nothing I haven't seen before. I also don't enjoy shooting for very long using a death grip, as I find it very tiring. Shannon Smith doesn't use a death grip, and I tried to model my grip after his.

It's not a death grip, it's a proper grip.

There are two good videos linked in this thread now, created by really excellent shooters. It takes lots of correct practice and developing good grip strength to be able to shoot a pistol well. If you say "bah, I don't want to do it that way" then I got nothing.

[Peally]

Yeah, that's a bad grip. I have "pussy hands" and I manage a normal/standard one, you definitely can too. With your current grip aside from the poor stability it's eventually inevitable that you'll take little piece out of your thumb.

I struggled with grip for a long time before I just "got it". Keep at a normal common grip and make little adjustments as necessary. I don't do any torque thing whatsoever but some people (like Vogel in his video) do; those are the minor variations on the same grip you'll figure out over practice and experimentation.

As far as throwing shots your grip doesn't matter diddly unless you're moving the gun around with your hands, grip is for recoil control not accuracy. If you want to stop drifting shots to the side you need to align the sights and be able to pull the trigger without moving the gun around. If you hold the gun upside down and pull the trigger well with your pinky finger the round is still going exactly where you aimed it (which is fun to do by the way).

[randyflycaster]

I've watched the Vogel video several times. Still not sure what he means by "monkey grip."

Randy

[blues]

I've watched the Vogel video several times. Still not sure what he means by "monkey grip."

Randy

Monkey grip would be like wrapping your hand around the grip in circular fashion...bringing your thumb down to meet the middle finger of the strong hand. It's an example of what not to do...the idea being to have the thumb up high to allow the heel and meat below the thumb of the support hand to occupy the space behind the fingers, and below the thumb of the strong hand.

The strong hand applies pressure and support from the front of the grip (beneath the trigger guard) to the back strap. The support hand provides lateral stability (primarily) and also enhances the grip of the strong hand.

[blues]

I highly encourage you to look at the recent U.S. Army pistol manual (http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN3524_TC%203-23x35%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf) which you can save as a .pdf file.

It is a wonderful resource that provides excellent descriptions and images of how to grip and deploy a semi-automatic handgun. I think you'll find it very helpful.

[scjbash]

21459

Good video, but nothing I haven't seen before. I also don't enjoy shooting for very long using a death grip, as I find it very tiring.

You would likely see great benefit from working on your grip strength. Iron Mind and GNC both make good trainers. The GNC trainers are cheaper and good quality, but may not come in a light enough weight to start with. I believe the easiest GNC is 100 pounds. I believe Iron Mind's easiest is 60 pounds. I recommend the extension bands as well to help reduce the chance of injury.

[blues]

You would likely see great benefit from working on your grip strength. Iron Mind and GNC both make good trainers. The GNC trainers are cheaper and good quality, but may not come in a light enough weight to start with. I believe the easiest GNC is 100 pounds. I believe Iron Mind's easiest is 60 pounds. I recommend the extension bands as well to help reduce the chance of injury.

Another option is the Ivanko Super Gripper which I actually prefer to the IronMind CoC...(though I do use use their bands).

[scjbash]

Another option is the Ivanko Super Gripper which I actually prefer to the IronMind CoC...(though I do use use their bands).

Just googled it and I'm intrigued.

[P.E. Kelley]

I wouldn't go too far down the "need more grip strength" rabbit hole. Sure, strong hands are a benefit in most
every area of physical activity, so working on that is a good thing.

However, a proper hand placement, using a firm grip is more important than your ability to close a CoC #2.
I have an office job and don't "work out", yet I can close and hold a 1.5 so I expect many others can as well.
So, given that as baseline, most of us have "enough" grip strength.

[Peally]

I'm a pansy that can barely close a CoC Sport a few times without sore hands for the day and I manage sissy 9mm fine.

[critter]

The following is worth exactly what you paid for it:

My first suggestion would be to research and take a pistol course from someone reputable. Learn everything correctly (various stances, grips, etc., the 'right' way), choose what best matches/works for you and then modify slightly as necessary to fit you.

The thumb back like that is mimicking the front/back pressure of the push/pull grip which is one steady/stable as hell technique which utilizes the larger muscle groups more than hand grip strength. You might try that push/pull technique. Lots of videos about it. Sometimes you simply have to go back to the basics to solve something messing with your shot placement. It could be as simple as rotating your elbows up (without sticking them way out there) creating more of a vise type grip. Shooting an auto with your thumb back like seems likely to hinder mobility and get you a nice slide bite at some point.

While it seems counter-intuitive to go backwards it's often the quickest way to solve a problem.
A decent quick article on the most basic of the basics (even if you don't need this, someone else may):
The 3 Shooting Stances, Which one is right for you? (https://www.policeone.com/police-products/firearms/training/articles/7981637-The-3-shooting-stances-Which-ones-right-for-you/)

Even if everyone you know promotes and shoots a certain way doesn't mean you necessarily should. Success absolutely does leave clues and reinventing the shooting wheel is pretty silly. Safely and consistently putting rounds where you want 'em to go is the name of the game regardless of whether famous Shooter X does it that way or not.

[45dotACP]

Is this in untimed slow fire or group shooting?

If you're basing your performance on untimed slow fire accuracy, then your grip isn't the root cause of your problems, it's your trigger control. You can hold your gun upside down and pull the trigger with your pinky and for untimed group shooting, as long as you pull the trigger without disturbing the sights, you will hit the middle of the target.

If you're running drills, I'd be interested to know your hit factors for both types of grips. You don't need a super mega death grip, but having a solid technique would help.

I suspect your current technique is inefficient for recoil management. Flag the dominant thumb, place the hypothenar eminence if your non dominant thumb into the grip panel revealed by flagging your dominant thumb. You should grip pretty hard...but again, you don't need to have Vogels grip. He's a unique person and what works for Vogel might not work for you.

But the thumb behind the wrist...I haven't seen any effective/successful shooter use it aside from Jerry with a snubby...but your gun isn't a snubby.

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[randyflycaster]

Went to the range today and used the Vogel "torque" grip, along with the Shannon Smith technique of using my strong hand fingertips as a wall, then pushing forward against the wall with my support-hand palm.

My shooting dramatically improved. My support hand did not slip off the gun. The Vogel grip made it easier for me to increase the lateral pressure on the gun.

I am very pleased. Thanks folks for all your help,

Randy

[Cory]

Left handers pushing shots right, and right handers pushing shots left is a trigger thing most of the time.

Does your trigger finger touch the frame above the trigger?

-Cory

[randyflycaster]

No, my finger doesn't touch the frame, and when I dry with a laser light there is no drift to the right. I think I have a recoil-control problem as much as anything,

Randy

[OnionsAndDragons]

No, my finger doesn't touch the frame, and when I dry with a laser light there is no drift to the right. I think I have a recoil-control problem as much as anything,

Randy

You may also be getting a smidge of sympathetic squeeze from your trigger finger into the frame during strings, as your firing hand tightens up during recoil.

Once you are comfortable with your grip technique this will resolve itself. Either by just gripping hard-hard all the time, or developing enough support hand grip and added torque to stabilize the gun through that small push anyway.

Figuring out how to apply that Vogel torque technique really helped me.


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[pangloss]

No, my finger doesn't touch the frame, and when I dry with a laser light there is no drift to the right. I think I have a recoil-control problem as much as anything,

Randy

You might try the ball and dummy drill if you think that anticipating recoil is the problem. The first two mags I shoot every time I go to the ranged are loaded with alternating live and dummy rounds. Over the past six months I watched the point of impact move up and right much closer to the intended point of impact. I still have a slight leftward bias, but no real problems along the Y axis. Focusing on support hand grip has helped too. Don't be discouraged by slow progress.

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[BillSWPA]

Wrapping the support hand thumb around the back of the grip is absolutely asking to get your support hand cut by the slide.

What has helped my grip the most:

Make sure that the central axis of the barrel is aligned with the central axis of your forearm when you view both from the top. This will help apply uniform pressure to both sides of the grip, as well as helping to ensure that the trigger squeeze is straight back.

Make sure you are contacting the trigger between the tip and first joint of your index finger.

Bend your support hand in the direction of your pinky finger. Place your support hand thumb on the grip, parallel to and below your dominant hand thumb. Get your support hand as high as possible under the trigger guard, and apply uniform pressure to both sides of the grip with your support hand.

When drawing from a holster, concentrate on driving your thumb between the grip and your body, so that your hand is most likely to end up in the proper place on the grip. If you get the barrel and forearm aligned as described above, the gun should come up with the sights aligned.


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