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View Full Version : 7 teens gang up on you...what is the consensus on how to respond?



fixer
01-21-2012, 10:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VG3DNu72D0&feature=youtube_gdata_player


NSFW for language...


This isn't an ordinary school yard brawl...you can hear clear threats to kill and I lost count of how many kicks to the face the kid took.

I'm sure some have heard this story.


http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/01/18/7-teens-charged-in-brutal-attack-captured-on-youtube/

So...what is everyone's take on this as far as a tactical response?

Of course you try to avoid a confrontation...but this guy was lured down this alley by a girl...it was a set up.

TCinVA
01-21-2012, 12:36 PM
Criminals who want to hurt people often use a ruse to get you into a trap. Knowing that, actively watching out for those traps would be a good start.

As for seven on one, it's a classic disparity of force situation. While it's possible that all seven of them are hardcore sociopaths who care not for their own lives, odds are that once you clear leather and shoot a couple of them that the rest will suddenly feel a strong impulse to be elsewhere. The same is highly likely to occur if you produce a knife and start opening major arteries. The mental transition from beating a dude down for fun 7 on 1 to "Holy crap, he's killing people!" can be quite unsettling.

TGS
01-21-2012, 12:51 PM
Tactical response? Where do these terms come from, who makes this shit up? I'm a dude on a street with a gun, not a Vice Crimes Unit........

Besides critically dynamically shitting myself, I would shoot. TC said why. It's 99% clear-cut as a good shoot unless I did something to provoke them.

jmjames
01-21-2012, 12:53 PM
As for seven on one, it's a classic disparity of force situation. While it's possible that all seven of them are hardcore sociopaths who care not for their own lives, odds are that once you clear leather and shoot a couple of them that the rest will suddenly feel a strong impulse to be elsewhere. The same is highly likely to occur if you produce a knife and start opening major arteries. The mental transition from beating a dude down for fun 7 on 1 to "Holy crap, he's killing people!" can be quite unsettling.

When I was in college, there was an incident where a student got jumped by 10 guys, I think at a party or a sporting event. They were piling on him pretty badly. He took a knife out and starting stabbing... the only person he hurt was the police officer who was yanking people off him. That stuck with me for a long time. Was he trying to protect his life? Absolutely! But it highlighted to me the dangers of trying to use a weapon to protect yourself in that scenario. In a situation like that, you've escalated "getting your tail handed to you" to "lethal encounter", and I simply do not see anything short of a firearm or *maybe* a baseball bat (or similar long-reach item) as a force equalizer. It's just too easy in a 7-1 for someone to grapple me or take my down, and then turn my knife around on me. All they need to do is surround you, and the person in the rear attacks your knees, and it's all over.

J.Ja

superr.stu
01-21-2012, 01:14 PM
As for seven on one, it's a classic disparity of force situation. While it's possible that all seven of them are hardcore sociopaths who care not for their own lives, odds are that once you clear leather and shoot a couple of them that the rest will suddenly feel a strong impulse to be elsewhere. The same is highly likely to occur if you produce a knife and start opening major arteries. The mental transition from beating a dude down for fun 7 on 1 to "Holy crap, he's killing people!" can be quite unsettling.

I'm going to have to agree with this.

While I think jmjames' point of having your weapon turned against you is a haunting thought to say the least. I also believe in a seven on one situation that you are probably already in a fight for your life.

Maybe Southnarc or someone can weigh in on this.

TGS
01-21-2012, 01:26 PM
I wouldn't share the same enthusiasm/confidence for breaking out a knife, personally.

Short of having the knife-fighting skills of a professional, I don't imagine myself as a big threat with a knife to where people are going to go, "oh shit!" and run away. I haven't the slightest bit of grandeur in my mind that I would be able to "open major arteries" as if I'm Wolverine. It's a great attitude to have unless you've got little knife fighting experience. Obviously if it's all I got, then I'm going to use it or whatever I can pick up since 7 on 1 is definitely a life threatening situation, even if they are only meaning to scare and bruise you.

I'm just saying to not be surprised when you pull out a knife and they get more enraged.....I wholeheartedly believe people will not react nearly as much to a knife as they would a gun, especially in a 7 on 1 situation. There's a reason guns had the effect they did on primitive societies, as opposed to blades.

Remember, the only absolute in knife fighting is that you will get cut. I wouldn't be so brazen in my attitude as to using one.

jmjames
01-21-2012, 01:33 PM
While I think jmjames' point of having your weapon turned against you is a haunting thought to say the least. I also believe in a seven on one situation that you are probably already in a fight for your life.

The intent of these kinds of beatings isn't lethal, although they may well be (and they can certainly be crippling or disfiguring). They are a terror technique. If people want to kill you, they kill you. If they want to rob you, they certainly don't want to split it among 7+ people. No one wants 6, 8, 12 others involved in a homicide, because everyone knows that the first one to roll over to the police gets to paint themselves as an innocent bystander and everyone else takes the fall. This is one of those situations that, barring very unusual circumstances, Joe Citizen doesn't find themselves in. Even the one that I recall from college, the kid who was getting beat up had some sort of beef with a gang to begin with, it's why he was carrying a knife.

EDIT to clarify: by "terror technique" I mean something that rival gangs use on each other in turf wars, fights over women, etc., not to terrorize the average citizen.

J.Ja

TGS
01-21-2012, 01:45 PM
The intent of these kinds of beatings isn't lethal, although they may well be (and they can certainly be crippling or disfiguring). They are a terror technique. If people want to kill you, they kill you. If they want to rob you, they certainly don't want to split it among 7+ people. No one wants 6, 8, 12 others involved in a homicide, because everyone knows that the first one to roll over to the police gets to paint themselves as an innocent bystander and everyone else takes the fall. This is one of those situations that, barring very unusual circumstances, Joe Citizen doesn't find themselves in. Even the one that I recall from college, the kid who was getting beat up had some sort of beef with a gang to begin with, it's why he was carrying a knife.

EDIT to clarify: by "terror technique" I mean something that rival gangs use on each other in turf wars, fights over women, etc., not to terrorize the average citizen.

J.Ja

I don't think it's too unusual for a person to find themselves 1 vs multiple, if that's your point. Happens all the time.

jmjames
01-21-2012, 01:56 PM
I don't think it's too unusual for a person to find themselves 1 vs multiple, if that's your point. Happens all the time.

That's correct... but there's a cut off (which was my not-enunciated point), where it transitions. It's a fuzzy line, but it's definitely there.

J.Ja

BaiHu
01-21-2012, 02:30 PM
A couple of points here: some come from a professional background (I teach martial arts), some from an opinion putting myself in that kid's shoes and then an overall opinion about the 'situation'.

1) From a self defense (SD) perspective, the kid did the best thing he could given the odds. He covered up in the fetal position the best he could when he no longer had a chance. From a awareness perspective, I give the kid a big fat 'F'. First, you don't go down an alley without heads up and scanning-no different in pistol work. Second, he obviously missed his first opportunity to escape by not having a 'heads up' awareness. Yes, the girl lured him, but any girl luring you into a snow filled alley for a BJ even must be questioned.
2) The negatives for this kid were way against him. The odds. The terrain. The weather.
3) Once the hyenas took a break, b/c they were all exhausted, the kid didn't improve his position.
4) As a kid, knowing this could be his life, he never utilized his reptilian self. His adrenaline and fight/flight were high and yet he chose neither for too long. Eye gouging, biting, screaming, flailing would have all given him some room and some 'credibility' to gain him a new position. I'm not talking about him suddenly becoming Jackie Chan. I've taught people for 10 years, who will still never be Jackie Chan, but will have a good SD background to not be suckered and not be caught unawares in most situations. This above explanation might not be as good as a gun or a knife, but it far outweighs just taking a pummeling.
5) I give the kid an 'A' for toughness, he took a decent beating from a lot of good blows and didn't go out, which is why I was so curious about why he didn't fight back. Perhaps we'll find out that the 'previous' altercation made him feel bad about what he might have done in the past-he just didn't want to fight even though they might have killed him.
6) Side note, I live in a quiet suburban area that doesn't have a danger zone unless you drive 15 minutes East or West, but a guy was killed at a bar one year with one punch to the back of someone's head-shit happens, even when you don't mean it.

All the above I've said as someone who knows SD well, but isn't expecting the kid to have any SD experience at all. If he had any SD training, he probably would have fared better. That being said, I have to liken this to Columbine for a minute. I'm glad that this beat down went this way, b/c this is a better way to deal with teen angst than having one or many of these kids showing up with dad's gun or a fertilizer bomb to their high school. I have a HUGE problem with the Zero Tolerance Bully mandates a lot of these schools have. I think it puts kids in a dangerous situation and it removes peer group problem solving, but that might be another thread.

Personally, this type of stuff makes me sick and although 'society' somehow will make this better, b/c people ratted everyone out, it's a shame that 6 boys and a girl thought that this was a good way to spend 5 minutes of their day. The honor amongst thieves has left the building.

GOP
01-21-2012, 02:35 PM
The one area where I have any real relevant experience is H2H type encounters. Outside of real fights, I have competed in BJJ and trained in Systema for a couple of years as well, where multiple opponent type situations happened often in training (some involving weapons). The goal is to line your targets up and use movement/space to your advantage, but even then, a 7 on 1 is almost an impossible scenario in real life. Accessing a gun or knife in limited space with 7 attackers is almost a futile effort, unless an act of God occurs or you can create some massive space/time to deploy your weapon. If you do deploy a weapon, your "technique" or form is certainly going to be completely different than what we train with on the range/in competition when you have 7 guys trying to bash in your skull. The times in training that I deployed a knife against multiple attackers, my best results came from stabbing furiously and being ultra aggressive while still trying to create some distance (somewhat a contradiction, I know), and a lot of the time my knife was taken from me. Of course, this is if the attackers are actually hell bent on harming you. If you start cutting peoples throat or shooting their buddies in the face, I'm sure the psychology of the event changes drastically. Moral: if 7 people want to harm you, than even with a weapon your odds probably are not that great, but if you up the violence and make people bleed, you increase your chance of survival in my humble opinion.

secondstoryguy
01-21-2012, 02:44 PM
7 in the open is a hard situation. 7 in more confined quarters can be doable if you can get them into a funnel of some sort and have a weapon. Someone already said it but the trick to that situation is not getting in it in the first place.

TCinVA
01-21-2012, 02:46 PM
Precisely. If you suddenly ratchet up the level of pain and damage that someone is going to have to pay to continue beating you, it might well convince most or all of your attackers to go find something else to do.

Rule number 1 of breaking up a crowd up to no good is to make people confront individual consequences. Pierce the sense of invulnerability that comes with being in a group and most in the group take their leave. The more drastic and immediate those consequences, the more likely people are to think about their own personal fortunes. Acting as a unit in the face of violent opposition is not a natural phenomenon. That's why we spend lots of time and money training people in uniforms to react differently to a situation involving great peril.

If the 7 guys who want to beat the crap out of you is a boat crew from Damn Neck...well...you've probably had it.

BaiHu
01-21-2012, 02:47 PM
.... Accessing a gun or knife in limited space with 7 attackers is almost a futile effort, unless an act of God occurs or you can create some massive space/time to deploy your weapon...... Moral: if 7 people want to harm you, than even with a weapon your odds probably are not that great, but if you up the violence and make people bleed, you increase your chance of survival in my humble opinion.

Great points, and that's why I tried to keep my post relevant to what actually happened to this kid. He didn't have a gun or a knife and he couldn't even legally carry a gun, so his options were piss poor once he made the strategical error to go down that alley.

Sparks2112
01-21-2012, 03:47 PM
6) Side note, I live in a quiet suburban area that doesn't have a danger zone unless you drive 15 minutes East or West, but a guy was killed at a bar one year with one punch to the back of someone's head-shit happens, even when you don't mean it.


Northern Kentucky?

fixer
01-21-2012, 04:56 PM
Tactical response? Where do these terms come from, who makes this shit up? I'm a dude on a street with a gun, not a Vice Crimes Unit........

I meant that in the purest sense of the english language, not mall ninja speak.



Besides critically dynamically shitting myself, I would shoot. TC said why. It's 99% clear-cut as a good shoot unless I did something to provoke them.

speaking of made up terms, what does critically dynamically shitting myself actually mean?

JodyH
01-21-2012, 05:02 PM
The intent of these kinds of beatings isn't lethal, although they may well be (and they can certainly be crippling or disfiguring). They are a terror technique.
What are next weeks Powerball numbers?

JodyH
01-21-2012, 05:08 PM
I guarantee if he had of cut one of the attackers deep enough to spray some blood the track meet would have started.

TGS
01-21-2012, 05:25 PM
speaking of made up terms, what does critically dynamically shitting myself actually mean?

Critical Dynamic Shit (http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/03/26/travis-haley-has-a-dynamic-accident/): Playing off usage of the phrase, "Critical Dynamic Incident" instead of calling it what it is.............a fight...or in this case, a doodie.

mongooseman
01-21-2012, 05:26 PM
Intent? Intent be damned. I personally know of a situation where three sociapaths under the age of sixteen kicked and beat a small adult male to death. I don't think their INTENT was to beat him to death. But they did. Shoot, bite, stab, whatever. Rather than hoping they will finally get tired.

jmjames
01-21-2012, 05:44 PM
What are next weeks Powerball numbers?

Not the ones on my ticket, I'll stake $10 on that. :)

J.Ja

Wes Peart
01-21-2012, 06:08 PM
7 on 1? Start shooting people and hope they scatter like the roaches they are.

Pretty easy to justify.. It's all in how you articulate.

mongooseman
01-21-2012, 06:32 PM
Intent? Intent be damned. I personally know of a situation where three sociapaths under the age of sixteen kicked and beat a small adult male to death. I don't think their INTENT was to beat him to death. But they did. Shoot, bite, stab, whatever. Rather than hoping they will finally get tired.

JeffJ
01-21-2012, 06:55 PM
Intent? Intent be damned. I personally know of a situation where three sociapaths under the age of sixteen kicked and beat a small adult male to death. I don't think their INTENT was to beat him to death. But they did. Shoot, bite, stab, whatever. Rather than hoping they will finally get tired.

This. I don't care if they have some deep seated personal issues that cause them to act out in aggression because mommy didn't hold them enough. I don't care if they aren't planning on killing me. I care about getting my ass out of there in one piece. I also care about not allowing someone else to dictate my path in life - I care about maintaining my free will.

The only response to this kind of violence is overwhelming violence, any tools that you might have (gun, knife, H2H technique, etc.) are simply extensions of your will (I think I stole that from Southnarc) your will has to be such that these scumbags are not going to do this to you while you sit by and let them. Is it possible that your tools won't be up to the job? Sure, but I don't believe in handing over my free will to some thugs in an alley over some brusies and broken bones - they're really going to have to commit to an ugly situation because I am all in.

HCM
01-21-2012, 07:06 PM
W. In a situation like that, you've escalated "getting your tail handed to you" to "lethal encounter".

J.Ja

No - being outnumbered is inherently a lethal force situation. Depending on the intent of a pack of sociopaths is folly.
In many of these situations the attackers don't"intend" to kill, it "just happens".

The kid was lucky but my experiences lead me to concur with this:

" if 7 people want to harm you, then even with a weapon your odds probably are not that great, but if you up the violence and make people bleed, you increase your chance of survival in my humble opinion."

I would add " if you up the violence and make people bleed quickly and decisively you increase your chance of survival"

vaglocker
01-21-2012, 08:14 PM
No - being outnumbered is inherently a lethal force situation. Depending on the intent of a pack of sociopaths is folly.
In many of these situations the attackers don't"intend" to kill, it "just happens".

The kid was lucky but my experiences lead me to concur with this:

" if 7 people want to harm you, then even with a weapon your odds probably are not that great, but if you up the violence and make people bleed, you increase your chance of survival in my humble opinion."

I would add " if you up the violence and make people bleed quickly and decisively you increase your chance of survival"

I couldn't agree more. In other words you need to go primal on the mofos rikki tik.

DocGKR
01-21-2012, 09:56 PM
As some of you know, not quite a year ago I very nearly found myself in a similar 7 on 1 situation: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?716-The-quot-new-quot-J-frame.

1. Avoid the situation
2. Run
3. Be VERY aggressive vocally and physically (how you look, position yourself, and move--appear like a hard target that they don't want to take on)
4. If it comes down to using force to escape and survive--strike unexpectedly, rapidly, with overwhelming violence

In my recent incident I had no option except to use #3 above and was mentally and physically prepared to go to #4 if the need arose...

Sparks2112
01-21-2012, 11:29 PM
Not too long after I got out of the army I was working as a bouncer at a very large bar here (2,000 people a night on the weekends). Anyway, after work one night three gentleman I had words with earlier decided they were going to wait for me after work.

Being completely unarmed in that situation really sucked. Overwhelming violence is really the only chance you have. In my case I think the only reason I survived the attack was because I bit one of the attacker's fingers off which kind of distracted everyone involved long enough for me to beat feet like brave brave Sir Robin, or I guess, Gollum. (Blood tests suck btw) Anyway, if you're armed, start shooting. Nearest to farthest, with anyone not running the opposite direction getting a visit from the lead fairy. I have noticed, most people who aren't trained scatter quite amusingly once a knife or a gun is introduced into the situation. Practicing a really good enraged scream helps as well. It can be quite disheartening when utilized effectively.

TGS
01-22-2012, 12:55 AM
Practicing a really good enraged scream helps as well. It can be quite disheartening when utilized effectively.

490

will_1400
01-22-2012, 12:23 PM
I'm in agreement with the consensus of "avoid and get the hell out of there" followed by aggressive posturing and starting off with heavy violence if it gets physical. It's amazing how peoples attitude/mindset changes when they realize you're literally trying to rip their throats out.

JodyH
01-22-2012, 02:23 PM
My goal would be to take as many with me as possible.
Iron Maiden "The Trooper" lyrics will be blasting in my head.

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Long tom coffin
01-22-2012, 03:01 PM
My goal would be to take as many with me as possible.
Iron Maiden "The Trooper" lyrics will be blasting in my head.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


BTDT, sort of. Except there were five of them, and I wasn't alone. Minus all the long details, I was working a security detachment for BJC when I was checking a records storage building off campus in a bad area. My trainer/minder/partner was with me, and I was 23 YOA and unblooded as you please. We were approached by a group of young, upstanding african american male citizens, all sporting gang tats. I straight froze up, and it's a good thing Clifton was there with me (ex cop from the 6th district, the worst part of town in North City), because if he wasn't there was all possibility that I could have gotten beaten to death, despite the fact that I was armed as part of my job. He made it clear in no uncertain terms that they were going to get shot if they advanced further, and after much profanity and threats, they finally left.

That was definitely my "aha!" moment, and is what convinced me to get my CCW as soon as it became legal in MO. I also became much more proactive in my training, situational awareness and self defense mindset.

And unrealistic as it sounds, facing a group of teenagers is something I might have to contend with here in STL, nowadays, especially in city. I'm unaware if the situation is the same in other cities, but the "Knockout Game" has recently come into vogue among the criminal youth here. The mayor himself and his police escort found a man beaten nearly to death on North Grand a couple weeks ago as a result of it. A very elderly vietnamese immigrant also got beaten to death during the "game" as he and his wife were walking home from the grocery store, in what was previously seen as a safe area of south city.


And now? If that happens to me, I'm immediately moving off to my left in a semi circle pattern and opening fire on the nearest target.

JMorse
01-22-2012, 03:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7iJBDWvK5c&feature=related

Fast forward to 4:55. Uncle Stevie will demonstrate the best way to handle this.

Coming up with a snazzy catchphrase on the cuff under pressure is where I'd have problems.

Le Français
01-22-2012, 06:27 PM
Today I was presented with a situation that might have deteriorated into something akin to this. I was the C.O. in charge of a direct supervision pod, and the inmates, aggravated due to allegedly uncomfortable temperatures in their cells, started talking about blocking the door and "making a stand". Yeah....no. That was quelled right quick, but the potential for a bad day was certainly there. Also, there were a lot more than 7.

As for how to act if caught in something like this (beyond avoidance, which, though not possible in some situations, is the best option) - call for help if possible, keep moving to keep on your feet and to try to have them come at you one at a time, and fight hard using the most effective weapons at your disposal.

NickA
01-23-2012, 09:36 AM
490

You don't scare me! Work on it! :)

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HCM
01-23-2012, 01:17 PM
You don't scare me! Work on it! :)

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

He's silly and he's ignorant, but he's got guts and guts is enough. Now you two ladies carry on!

steelhawk
01-29-2012, 09:47 PM
The intent of these kinds of beatings isn't lethal, although they may well be (and they can certainly be crippling or disfiguring)

So they may only plan on beating me near to death ,which will likely leave me crippled for life. I have no intention of letting this happen to me. Some of them will get shot. If they don't run, and I still can, more will get shot.

Rodney Ledbetter
01-30-2012, 12:21 AM
tell their mommy that they hurt you and they need to be spanked.

barstoolguru
01-30-2012, 12:28 AM
So...what is everyone's take on this as far as a tactical response?


The tactical response is to save one's ass. Someone said they did not think the wanted to kill him, who is to say? all in the beating are equally guilty and as such are subject to the same response from the victim or a third party in defense of the victim (Texas law) to shoot to stop the threat

jstyer
01-30-2012, 01:15 AM
I know the discussion has moved past the response of the victim, but I think we're asking a lot from a guy that agreed to go down a deserted alley for some lady bits... The statistics tell us that a huge majority of violence happens in the same type of places! If you avoid the places where violence is often commited, you dramatically improve your chances of not getting involved in violence in the first place!

I think it was Rory Miller that said, "Sure 'don't go down dark alleys' sounds trivial... But damn. That's good advice."

BWT
01-30-2012, 01:35 AM
The More people ganging up on me while I'm alone, the more likely I am to start shooting.

Honestly, period paragraph.

If two guys approach me in a provocative manner, or it escalates into a scuffle, probably going to pull a gun.

7 guys? 7? Seriously? Seven? One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven?

...That sounds like that could turn into a fatal beating very fast.

I just can't see anyone practically looking at anyone and going "Hey man... take the whooping and just let it go."

Watching the video, they're stomping him, kicking him, trying to choke him into unconciousness, kicing him in the Face? Fear of death or great bodily harm is in the Castle Laws in this state. Dude, let a half dozen guys explain their way out of jumping me.

Dude, when someone and a half dozen friends do that, they've made their decision..

It's like I summed it up to a co-worker, I work in Spartanburg South Carolina, we had a defensive shooting in Spartanburg South Carolina, was it last week?

http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/16570079/police-robber-killed-in-sc-waffle-house-shooting

The truth is, when someone goes out and plans to victimize someone, or people, when they go out with that mindset, in my opinion, it's not up to the other person to show restraint for their mistake.

You walk in a store with a gun and start robbing people or pointing it at people, you'll probably get shot by a CWP holder. You get jumped by 7 guys? You feel your life is in danger? I mean to me, it's ridiculous, that's fear of death or great bodily harm.

ETA: Changed you to they and theirs, etc, But, what if one of them grabbed a brick and hit him in the head? I mean... Honestly, I just don't feel sympathy for people that puff out their chest and go out and victimize someone, I'm sorry, I just don't. Maybe I should, but I don't have that, you go looking for a fight, you get in over your head, that's your own problem. IMHO.

jmjames
01-30-2012, 02:14 AM
I think that what many of the posters in this thread are failing to see, is that in a 7 on 1 situation, the amount of time that you have to go from "feeling scared" to "being assaulted" is extraordinarily minimal. You guys are all talking about a 7 on 1 confrontation which is an entirely different ball game. I am talking about an attack. Believe me, in a 7 on one attack (a situation that has already shifted to a physical assault), you are going to take a beating, a bad one at that, and if you have any thoughts of your gun, it will probably be praying that the attackers do not see it, take it, and shoot you with it. If you are a trained fighter, things may be different, but they may not be even then.

Just because there are 7 guys looking at you hungry does not give you the right to shoot them. By the time that situation transitions from "a group of guys intimidating me" to an assault (especially if you are surrounded), you may not even have the time to draw your pistol. It is difficult enough as it is to take a situation where a single person is directing the tempo to one in which you are... try doing that while surrounded or gravely outnumbered. From personal experience, I can tell you that even two people in a narrow area can effectively defeat any kind of escape or resistance if one if them is in the rear from the beginning; I was lucky to that I wasn't very hurt in that particular incident. The time I had between "guy walking down this hallway looking at me funny" to "please God help me" was lower than most of the folks on this board take to draw from concealment and fire their first round.

It's a different situation if you can avoid being surrounded, and that is your goal. As others have said, run, shout for help, intimidate back, etc. If there are 7 people in front of you with weapons, by all means, draw your gun and fire as needed. Or run if you can. Or whatever. Quite frankly, even if I knew that the entire group was in front of me and they didn't have someone behind me, I would be doing my best to not shoot because 2 rounds per opponent until a reload just doesn't go too far if they don't run away at the sight of a gun. Avoid the attack at all costs. You have no idea how these people will react to the sight of the gun. Some will cower in fear. Others will take the initiative and press the assault.

I can also tell you from personal experience that not everyone out there is afraid of the sight of a gun. Just because it is cowardly to gang up on someone in an alleyway does not mean that the people who do it will instantly be routed the moment you draw. I personally have not shrunk away in fear both times I had a gun pointed at me, despite the fact that I was unarmed. I personally know a number of people who have fought back against an armed attacker, some quite successfully. A very common theme in these situations is that the armed attacker had their weapon turned against them. In a 7 on 1 assault (again, a situation that has already turned violent), I am absolutely convinced that attempting to bring a firearm into the mix will most likely result in me being shot.

J.Ja

barstoolguru
01-30-2012, 09:29 AM
I know the discussion has moved past the response of the victim, but I think we're asking a lot from a guy that agreed to go down a deserted alley for some lady bits... The statistics tell us that a huge majority of violence happens in the same type of places! If you avoid the places where violence is often commited, you dramatically improve your chances of not getting involved in violence in the first place!

I think it was Rory Miller that said, "Sure 'don't go down dark alleys' sounds trivial... But damn. That's good advice."


it wasn't a dark alley..... it was behind the school in the service area so it was clear he was in a sumwhat safe area and it the day time too

jmjames
01-30-2012, 09:49 AM
it wasn't a dark alley..... it was behind the school in the service area so it was clear he was in a sumwhat safe area and it the day time too

The first time I was assaulted multiple-on-one, it was the middle of the day in the middle of a parking lot. About 10 years ago, I was driving through Hackensack, NJ, and I saw 5 people piling on 1 person, in the middle if the day on the corner of a sidewalk, in a very busy area. One of my best friends and his girlfriend were beat up 3 on 2 in a similar circumstance... middle of the day, middle of the sidewalk, on the busiest road in town. I am under no illusions that sunshine or public scrutiny are terribly good disinfectants for assault.

J.Ja

jstyer
01-30-2012, 10:22 AM
I am under no illusions that sunshine or public scrutiny are terribly good disinfectants for assault.


Couldn't agree more. And on that note, I think this is a good place to mention that there's a pretty decent chance that NOTHING is ever true 100% of the time. While violence most certainly happens more often in specific places, it can without question happen at any time, any place.

That being said I've read quite a few posts in this thread so far that mention pretty specific tactics. E.g. drawing and moving to the left etc... I think that is assuming a whole heck of a lot for this hypothetical future fight scenario. Who knows what challenges may present themselves to you if you ever find yourself in a SD scenario. I love and rely on my pistol probably more than I should, but it's important to remember that a firearm is just a single tool in a whole toolbox of SD techniques. And when the time comes, you better pick the tool that fits the job, not just the one you think of first. (I do realize that in this instance of 7-1 if it's possible to get the pistol out, it sure would've helped do the job!)

As many have mentioned, fights happen harder and faster than you ever expect them to. I truly think people drastically underestimate the lack of time and huge surprise that occur at the onset of violent situations. I'm not sure who it was that posted the anecdote where they said before they knew it, it had gone from "identify threat" to "oh god help me." I think this is the case more often than any of us would ever like to admit.

I'm also really glad that there's a pretty good consensus on this thread of people suggesting run, shout, act like a crazy person! You don't see very many forum "experts" preaching those very simple and very effective SD measures.

I'll end this post with a self defense hierarchy borrowed from about a billion sources:

"Don't die when you can fight.
Don't fight when you can run.
Don't run when you can de-escalate.
Don't de-escalate when you can avoid."

barstoolguru
01-30-2012, 11:57 AM
So...what is everyone's take on this as far as a tactical response?

Of course you try to avoid a confrontation...but this guy was lured down this alley by a girl...it was a set up.

like always on these boards the subject gets distorted and needs to be put back on track. The question is what would someone do? Let’s say you can't/didn't avoid this and got sucked in what can you do as a victim.. my option is when you walk in and see that many guys surrounding you don't let them, keep backing up or run so they can't surround you and if you feel in fear for your life pull your gun and shoot the closest one to you and then another. There is a mob of people waiting for you can't be good

if you walk up on this and you are sure that they are committing great harm and feel like you need to interact (Texas law) shoot one of them because the law in any state says the if one is committing a crime and other are there with them they are equally guilty. Yes avoid a warning shot for number of reasons, if you are going to pull it you better be ready to use it

Not trying to derail the subject I was sent this and it falls along the same lines on how to handle a crowd of thugs (or flash mob) that are going to hurt you.

quote from the article:
4). If you cannot avoid, attack...brutally and viciously. This is not the time to worry about some goofball fear monger's articles about being sued, nor about anything of the sort. It is time to deploy your weapons and attack the leaders. Listen folks, there is disparity of force by the sheer number against you and the knowledge you have based on these prior flash mob events.

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/06/the-mob-attack-what-to-do-to-defend.html

phidelta308
01-30-2012, 12:57 PM
I live in Baltimore, Maryland, so legally carrying a gun is out of the question for me. About a year and a half ago, there was a series of attacks in my neighborhood. Groups of 5-10 African American teenagers were targeting white 20 something males that were walking alone in the evening. Being squarely in the target demographic, I was concerned. I could see the location where 2 of the attacks occurred from my front steps. The victims were beaten and robbed. Robbery seemed to be a secondary motive.

I carry a big, sharp pocket knife and a really bright flashlight. A gun is out of the question in Maryland. I was never attacked, but I made up my mind in advance, that if I was attacked, I was going to charge into the ambush, and hurt the first person I could get my hands on. I mean really hurt them, make an example of them.

Fortunately, it wasn't too hard to avoid becoming prey... keep your head up and watch your surroundings. When interviewed, almost all of the victims said they were texting/playing a game on their cell phone when suddenly they found themselves surrounded.

Also, the Latino gangs started to patrol the area with pipe wrenches, which helped put an end to the attacks.