Church Shooting - Wilson County, TX

[HCM]

Shooting at a Baptist Church in Wilson County, TX, about 40 miles Southesat of San Antonio. Multiple victims, shooter reported deceased. Details developing.

https://www.ksat.com/news/shooting-sutherland-springs-church-gunfire-mass-shooting-airlife

<Updates added by LL, credit to David M Fortier>


According to initial reports the gunman drove to the store across from the church and exited his vehicle. He was dressed in all black, with face mask and wearing a ballistic vest. He was armed with a Ruger 5.56x45mm AR rifle equipped with an inexpensive red dot sight, white light, sling and a vertical grip. He began shooting walking towards the church, moved to the right of the church and continued firing and then entered the church shooting. He fired as he walked to the front of the church, stopped, turned and continued shooting as he walked back out. It is believed his rifle was loaded with Hornady TAP or VMAX ammunition based upon a loaded cartridge left at the scene. 23 people were killed in the church, two outside the church and one died at a hospital. 20 more were wounded. Ages of the victims range from 5 to 72 years old.

A neighbor heard the gunfire and responded by grabbing an AR-15 rifle and taking up a shooting position. He fired on the gunman as he exited the church. It appears the gunman was hit by the armed citizen, possibly in the neck, as he dropped his rifle, a Ruger AR, and fled to his vehicle. The armed citizen continued to engage the gunman attempting to stop him and prevent him from fleeing. He fired at least one shot which blew out the back window of the vehicle. The shooter drove away at a high rate of speed. In order to prevent the gunman from escaping and causing further harm the armed citizen flagged down a vehicle. The armed citizen quickly informed the driver of the vehicle, a pick-up truck, the situation and entered the vehicle. The driver of the pick-up truck set out in pursuit of the fleeing gunman while contacting the police via his cell phone. During the pursuit the driver of the pick-up closed the distance with the fleeing gunman while reaching speeds of 95 mph. The pick-up truck driver was able to get within a few feet of the fleeing gunman's vehicle, which then slowed, before the gunman lost control of his vehicle and went off the road at an intersection.

The armed citizen exited the pick-up and covered the gunman's vehicle with his rifle to prevent the gunman's escape. The driver of the pick-up stated the gunman made no movements inside his vehicle. The driver of the truck placed his vehicle in park and informed the police of the gunman's location. The police arrived on location approximately 5 to 7 minutes later. The gunman died at the scene, and as the driver of the truck stated he made no movements and there were no shots fired for the 5 to 7 minutes before police arrived. Evidence indicates he bled out and died from a gunshot wound or wounds inflicted by the armed citizen. Police stated the gunman's vehicle contained multiple firearms and he may have been headed to another location to continue his shooting spree, but was killed instead.


The shooter, Devin Patrick Kelley, was 26 years old, father of two. High School classmates of his are quoted as saying he was an outcast who preached "atheism" and said "anyone who believes in God is stupid". He served in the US Air Force from 2009 to 2013 and was Court-Martialed and discharged in 2014 after assaulting his wife and child and serving 12 months in the brig. Under Federal Law a Domestic Violence conviction would prohibit him from legally owning a firearm but evidently was not disqualified as he purchased his rifle at an Academy store. So, for a motive he was a militant atheist who hated Christians. As a militant atheist he might have ties to the Left but that remains to be proven.

Without a doubt the armed citizen is a hero who likely saved many more lives by his quick thinking and willingness to step in and take action. His ability to properly employ a long gun against an armed and moving gunman while under great stress saved lives and put an end to the shooting spree. His actions demonstrate how a legally owned firearm can be used to save lives if the person behind the gun has the mettle and ability to properly put it to use.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/06/07/4610566A00000578-5052163-Stephen_Willeford_-a-2_1509952629788.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/06/07/460E878100000578-5052163-Johnnie_Langendorff-a-4_1509952629849.jpg

Stephen Willeford, 55, (left) and Johnnie Langendorff (right) have been praised as heroes after they were able to stop Texas gunman Devin Kelley's rampage.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwYd2kIZxk4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HEchh0XD8

[HCM]

Yahoo / GMA now reporting at least 20 dead and 30 injured.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/texas-church-scene-shooting-report-192705171--abc-news-topstories.html

[AMC]

Just got home from service with my two kids and saw this. A few folks in the congregation know what I do for a living (like 5-6), and there are two other LEOs in the church as well....made sure I knew them and they knew me. I was actually wondering how folks would feel knowing about the .40 Cal Sig 226 under my shirt. This just reinforces why their opinion isn't relative to me. I'm not interested in martyrdom for me and mine....or them and theirs.

[HCM]

Just got home from service with my two kids and saw this. A few folks in the congregation know what I do for a living (like 5-6), and there are two other LEOs in the church as well....made sure I knew them and they knew me. I was actually wondering how folks would feel knowing about the .40 Cal Sig 226 under my shirt. This just reinforces why their opinion isn't relative to me. I'm not interested in martyrdom for me and mine....or them and theirs.

The last church I attended we did a pistol range day for one of the men's fellowship days so things are a little different here.

[LOKNLOD]

Ugh. Waiting patiently for more details to come out.

I, too, just got home from church with the family. I make some compromises in dress each week to be sure I can carry. And the marksman in me has probably spent a little too much time wondering “could I hit that from here...” in our new large auditorium.

I know we have a security team (we’re a large-ish Baptist church) and often have a bit extra as one of our senators is a frequent attendee while in town.

I’m my family’s security team, though.

[HCM]

From CNN


The shooter was killed after a brief chase north into neighboring Guadalupe County, according Guadalupe County Sheriff's Office spokesman Robert Murphy. It is unclear if the shooter was killed by police or took his own life, Murphy said.

[Drang]

"liked" the post for this:

I’m my family’s security team

.sig-worthy.

[lwt16]

Prayers to the victim's and the church members.

Church security and response to an active shooter should be on every church's radar. The church we are members of got proactive on it some years ago and now we are about 30 strong with an operating budget, CCTV system (that's pretty state of the art), comms, formal training (legal as well as firearms), etc. I help out on the training and we try to run quarterly training at a bare minimum.

We televise as well so we get our share of odd folks that come in and cause low level drama that most times the ushers can handle.

We have quite a large sanctuary and if I remember right there are spots where the shot could be in the 70 yard neighborhood and could be elevated (balcony) shots. I decided a long time ago to always get in some 100 yard pistol shooting at my AR500 target just to keep that skill up to par.

Typically we get all security members to qualify once per year but that's not enough. It's hard to ask volunteers to lay out cash for practice ammo but personally, I am going to up my yearly round count next year to 5k (purchased out of pocket) instead of my usual 3.5-4 thousand rounds due to what I do for a 9-5 job as well as this extra thing I am involved with on Sundays.

Horrible events such as this one only fortify my resolve to buy more practice ammo and do all that I can to hone up my skills.

Again, prayers for those affected and a high five for the guys that hunted the cretin down.

[blues]

Coming soon to a town near you...

Thoughts and prayers for the departed and their families.

[5pins]

Let the inaccurate reporting and wild speculation begin.

[David S.]

Unsure if it means anything: it's the 8 year anniversary of the Ft. Hood shooting.

CNN reporting the Pastor's 14 year old daughter was among the killed.

[SamAdams]

Of course, you’re more likely to be struck by lightning than be a victim in a mass shooting. (The numbers are readily available with a web search.) Regardless, the calls for more ‘reasonable gun control laws’ will begin again. The jihadi who used a truck recently will be conveniently pitched down the media memory hole.


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[TGS]

Public Access Bleeding Control Kits (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28017-Public-Access-Bleeding-Kits)

I have no professional or financial interests involved in you guys purchasing these kits. In case anyone missed it, just thought I'd mention as it's relevant to the topic at hand....

[Oukaapie]

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml

My search Fu tells me that mass shootings are deadlier than lightning strikes.

[Crawls]

Press briefing just stated that a civilian retrieved his own rifle and engaged the gun man out side the church causing the gunman to drop his rifle and flee. It is possible the gunman seccumed to wounds caused by the civilian rifleman. This dude is a hero.

[Shellback]

A terrible, tragic, loss of life. Godspeed to the fallen and may their families and loved ones somehow find peace.

[Rex G]

A Texas DPS regional official stated that an armed citizen, with a rifle, engaged the suspect, who then dropped his Ruger AR15 type of rifle. The suspect then fled in a vehicle, pursued by the armed citizen for 11 miles. Upon reaching neighboring Guadalupe County, the suspect crashed, and was found dead, with a gunshot injury. Whether the suspect shot himself at the point of the crash has yet to be determined.

This is paraphrased, from a news conference I just watched.

Some news outlets have named one victim, and one news outlet, at least, has named a person believed to be the murderer, but no official source has named either. I have worked enough crime scenes to know that the news media can certainly jump to premature conclusions.

My being a member of a Baptist Church, in a small Texas town, this incident does have a very personal significance.

[Lon]

I’ll be watching for updated info so we can discuss it during a training I’m doing for a Church Security group this weekend. They’ve got some squared away shooters.

[Sensei]

A Texas DPS regional official stated that an armed citizen, with a rifle, engaged the suspect, who then dropped his Ruger AR15 type of rifle.

My prayers will go out to the lost, injured, and their families. If what you posted is true, my money will go out to this guy; I plan to pay for his beer of the month club membership this year and donate to his kid’s college fund.

[SeriousStudent]

As others have said, my thoughts are with those impacted by this tragedy. In such a small town, everyone there will be hard-hit. :(

[Totem Polar]

drive-by posted for info; I don't know the site:

http://yournewswire.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/

Antifa guy; possibly put down for dirt nap by an armed private citizen. I admit to growing very weary of "the plot thickening" when it comes to active shooters and the USA, but I can't not look.

[Chance]

Small-town terrorism was in the "theory" column long before 9/11.

I wish I had something of substance to offer, but I don't. To all of y'all that are scrambling to protect your local places of worship: make your own luck.

My thoughts are with you.

[SeriousStudent]

Small-town terrorism was in the "theory" column long before 9/11.

I wish I had something of substance to offer, but I don't. To all of y'all that are scrambling to protect your local places of worship: make your own luck.

My thoughts are with you.

Sadly, some of us have already been doing that for years. It really does sadden me to do so.

But nearly as much as going to a lot of funerals would.

[s0nspark]

... and the calls for gun control have started anew, despite this attack being stopped by a good guy with a gun AND the fact that the shooter was apparently a prohibited person, having been dishonorably discharged.

Thinking is obviously too hard for some people...

[LittleLebowski]

Interview with one of the courageous citizens that answered the call to stop evil before law enforcement arrived.

I used to talk shit about folks with neck tatts.

No more.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwYd2kIZxk4

[Doc_Glock]

Interview with one of the courageous citizens that answered the call to stop evil before law enforcement arrived.

I used to talk shit about folks with neck tatts.

No more.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwYd2kIZxk4

Staying tuned in to this thanks for the links.


Off topic: Neck tattoo guy helped that cop out on the side of Hwy 10 in Arizona a year or so as well.

[LittleLebowski]

Staying tuned in to this thanks for the links.


Off topic: Neck tattoo guy helped that cop out on the side of Hwy 10 in Arizona a year or so as well.

Very true, much respect.

[Dismas316]

That's awesome, Johnnie, drinks are on me if I ever meet you. God bless you brother.

Prays for those families and that community.

[Lester Polfus]

It will be interesting how the media chooses to report on the neighbor engaging the guy and then chasing him. In some reporting, that aspect is very prominent in the story. In others, it's buried many paragraphs deep.

[pangloss]

It will be interesting how the media chooses to report on the neighbor engaging the guy and then chasing him. In some reporting, that aspect is very prominent in the story. In others, it's buried many paragraphs deep.


CNN appears to be upfront about it in at least one of their stories: http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us/texas-church-shooting-resident-action/index.html

[idahojess]

There was an earlier AP report on Fox News that called the intervening shooter a "vigilante". I can't find it now .. Hopefully that label won't continue.

[45dotACP]

Dang Johnny. Drinks are on me this side of Valhalla.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Beat Trash]

I would like to think of the intervening shooter as a Gentleman who should never have to pay for another drink for the rest of his life. Had this gentleman not decided to intervene, who knows what the death toll would have been.

Edited to add: Johnny also shouldn't have to buy a drink so long as he remains, " A member of the community".

This was a terrible tragedy, but out of it comes a small glamor of hope in that there are still those willing to take a stand when needed.

[idahojess]

... and the calls for gun control have started anew, despite this attack being stopped by a good guy with a gun AND the fact that the shooter was apparently a prohibited person, having been dishonorably discharged. .

The reports say he had a bad conduct discharge. I really don't know if that would trigger the dishonorable discharge prohibition (not an expert on that issue). However the conduct that he was court-martialed for, domestic violence, certainly seems like it should have been prohibitive. It certainly would have been had he had been criminally convicted or plead guilty to such charges.

From the LA times (I've taken his name out):


[ name omitted], who served in logistics readiness at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico starting in 2010, was court-martialed in 2012 for two counts alleging assault on his spouse and assault on their child, Ann Stefanek, the chief of Media Operations for the Air Force, said in a statement.

[Name omitted] was convicted and sentenced to 12 months in custody and given a bad conduct discharge, Stefanek said.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-pol-essential-washington-updates-alleged-texas-shooter-was-court-1509937194-htmlstory.html

[Lester Polfus]

The Big Chicken Dinner doesn't make one a prohibited person, per se, but the domestic violence charges should have.

[BillSWPA]

At least according to my Legal Heat app, it is illegal to carry a gun into a church in Texas if the church is posted. Hopefully some lawmakers can be persuaded that prohibited places do no good.



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[David S.]

At least according to my Legal Heat app, it is illegal to carry a gun into a church in Texas if the church is posted. Hopefully some lawmakers can be persuaded that prohibited places do no good.

I've only been here a couple years, but I can't say I've seen many (any?) churches here in TX with signs posted. I'm sure they do exist, but I doubt there's too many, relatively speaking.

[Joe in PNG]

One possible problem is that there's a number of Churches that are also schools during the week- which can mean that the usual prohibitions apply.

[Mark D]

Been busy all day and I wasn't aware of this tragedy until a few minutes ago.

Incredibly sad.

[blues]

... and the calls for gun control have started anew, despite this attack being stopped by a good guy with a gun AND the fact that the shooter was apparently a prohibited person, having been dishonorably discharged.

Thinking is obviously too hard for some people...

My neck hurts from shaking my head while listening to some of the pols being interviewed in connection with this tragedy. I just don't have the words.

[idahojess]

The Church's youtube page is here -- just a small country Church. I've been in a few of those. Very, very sad.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwi858rGRPg0lFFVycFvvWA/videos

[AMC]

I'm just sick. May God comfort the victims. I know everyone is shouting back and forth over this....but I'm not going to accuse anyone of "politicizing" this atrocity. Many of these folks sincerely believe that some kind of "gun control" is the answer to this madness. They're not bad people... they're just wrong. Everyone wants an answer. Something that will make the bad things stop....because folks today live in a sheltered world, and believe childish things. Yelling at them won't help them overcome that. I don't really know what will.

[CleverNickname]

At least according to my Legal Heat app, it is illegal to carry a gun into a church in Texas if the church is posted. Hopefully some lawmakers can be persuaded that prohibited places do no good.
It's illegal to carry on any private property in Texas, if it's properly posted. The only difference is that the penalty for breaking the law is slightly higher for churches and a few other places.

That said, the odds of a small rural Baptist church being posted are rather tiny.

[HCM]

Resident shot at and chased Texas church shooter

http://www.kens5.com/news/local/resident-shot-at-and-chased-texas-church-shooter/489342521


http://www.kens5.com/news/nation-world/sutherland-springs-church-shooting-what-we-know-now/489318727


Martin, with the Texas DPS, did not name the suspect during the news conference but said the gunman was dressed in black and wore a ballistic vest. He began firing outside the church and then entered the building and continued firing.

As he left the church, a local resident with a rifle pursued the gunman, who dropped his Ruger AR assault-type rifle and fled. Martin said it was unclear whether the suspect was killed by a shot from the local resident or from self-inflicted wounds.

[HCM]

Hero' neighbor got his rifle, shot at Texas church gunman


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/05/hero-neighbor-got-his-rifle-shot-at-texas-church-gunman.html

[Lester Polfus]

Any bets on whether our hero used an AR-15?

[HCM]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5052815/Hero-tackled-armed-shooter-left-church.html


How heroic locals exchanged gunfire with Texas shooter, ran him off the road as he tried to flee and shot him dead
Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, was leaving First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs after he opened fire on parishioners
An unnamed neighbor had 'grabbed his rifle and engaged the suspect'
Kelley fled the skirmish and got back in his SUV to flee the scene
But another local resident, Johnnie Langendorff, witnessed the gun battle and both he and the unnamed neighbor jumped in his truck and gave chase
Kelley eventually lost control of his vehicle during the high speed chase
Langendorff said the suspect was then shot dead by the neighbor
Police have confirmed that Kelley killed at least 26 people before he was shot


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5052815/Hero-tackled-armed-shooter-left-church.html#ixzz4xcuniadE
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[HCM]

Any bets on whether our hero used an AR-15?

Worth noting, as discussed in the official press conference below, the suspect was wearing a ballistic vest during the attack.


http://youtu.be/XBJVBe8ac5s

[HCM]

Neighbor who watched shooting unfold says gunman unloaded at least 6 clips on church
'I saw a couple of small children -- they were not moving'


https://www.ksat.com/news/neighbor-who-watched-shooting-unfold-says-gunman-unloaded-at-least-6-clips-on-church

[andre3k]

Sounds like the good neighbor hit the shooter in the neck and he bled out during the chase. Bet the MSM won't be reporting much on that.

[Drang]

The reports say he had a bad conduct discharge. I really don't know if that would trigger the dishonorable discharge prohibition (not an expert on that issue). However the conduct that he was court-martialed for, domestic violence, certainly seems like it should have been prohibitive. It certainly would have been had he had been criminally convicted or plead guilty to such charges.

From the LA times (I've taken his name out):

I approve this treatment of dead scumbags, and feel it should be followed universally.



[ name omitted], who served in logistics readiness at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico starting in 2010, was court-martialed in 2012 for two counts alleging assault on his spouse and assault on their child, Ann Stefanek, the chief of Media Operations for the Air Force, said in a statement.

[Name omitted] was convicted and sentenced to 12 months in custody and given a bad conduct discharge, Stefanek said.

Pretty sure a BCD plus 12 months hard time = convicted felon. The phrase that I recall is that "It's a crime to be convicted under the UCMJ."

One of the O's here can confirm it, they spend more time studying the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the Manual for Courts Martial than us knuckle-dragging NCOs.
(@ranger? Suvorov?)

[LittleLebowski]

Update in OP.

[TGS]

I approve this treatment of dead scumbags, and feel it should be followed universally.



Pretty sure a BCD plus 12 months hard time = convicted felon. The phrase that I recall is that "It's a crime to be convicted under the UCMJ."

One of the O's here can confirm it, they spend more time studying the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the Manual for Courts Martial than us knuckle-dragging NCOs.
(@ranger? Suvorov?)

Military courts martial do not fall under felony or misdemeanor classifications.

There are 3 levels; summary, special, and general. Summary is analogous to misdemeanor, special can be analogous to either, general is analogous to a felony. The likeness is based on what crimes are generally heard in each court, and the possible length of imprisonment for each charge under the UCMJ (federal criminal code, and most states, regard anything with possible confinement over 1 year as a felony).

However, they aren't actually a felony as they're a strictly military charge, not a criminal charge in a civilian court: the UCMJ does not make a distinction, definition, or any mention of misdemeanor or felony.

A bad conduct discharge is not a felony...although it carries severe penalties and curtailment of pretty much all veteran benefits, a BC on its own wouldn't preclude someone from owning a gun. A dishonorable is not a federal felony in itself, but carries the same weight as such. For example, the GCA of 1968 classifies anyone with a dishonorable as a prohibited person.

It's all sort of academic since he is a DV offender, and under the Lautenberg Amendment is not allowed to own guns or be in a job where he has to be in possession of guns.

ETA: The charges can still show up in NCIC, and will be treated similarly to a misdemeanor or felony in case a person gets hooked up by civilian LE for the purposes of sentencing guidelines, charging thresholds, etc.

ETA #2: I should probably stop. P-F.com member Psalms144.1 can probably explain this easier than I can.

[LittleLebowski]

Another update added.

[fuse]

An unlikely hero describes gun battle and 95-mph chase with Texas shooting suspect
http://wapo.st/2yyP06X

Kind of redundant at this point

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[NickA]

Mr. Langendorff was interviewed by Good Morning America today. He was very humble and well spoken, just a normal guy caught in a bad deal. I think he represented very well, exactly what I like to see in a hero and a Texan.
(Lots of "yes ma'am" and "no ma'am" to Robin Roberts, which I thought was awesome, but exactly what you can expect from small town Texas folk)

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[HCM]

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-gunmans-in-laws-attended-church-of-massacre/


The in-laws of Texas mass shooter Devin Kelley attended the church where he shot 26 dead and injured another 20 on Sunday — but they weren’t in the pews during the massacre.

Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt Jr. revealed the connection Monday morning, though it’s not clear what their exact relationship was, according to CNN.

It may have been a motivating factor, according to Texas Gov. Greg Abbott.

“I don’t think this was just a random act of violence,” he told ABC’s “Good Morning America.”

[Chance]

I'm a little lost: how does someone who spent a year in confinement receive anything other than a dishonorable discharge? Is that common?

[HCM]

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/church-shooting-victims-had-no-way-to-escape-slaughter/


Victims of church shooter Devin Patrick Kelley had “no way” out once his rampage began, a local sheriff said.

The former US Airman unleashed his Ruger AR-style assault rifle through the front door First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, before moving inside to continue his onslaught — leaving terrified congregants little hope to run out the front, according to sheriff Joe Tackitt Jr.




“It’s unbelievable to see children, men and women, laying there. Defenseless people,” Tackitt said, also describing the scene as “terrible.”

The gunman was also carrying a handgun, though it’s unclear whether he used it, according to Tackitt. He also had “several” other guns in his car, investigators said.

[HCM]

I'm a little lost: how does someone who spent a year in confinement receive anything other than a dishonorable discharge? Is that common?

"Other than honorable" is not the same as "bad conduct discharge" or "dishonorable discharge."

There is some question whether the suspect received a bad conduct discharge or a dishonorable.

A "dishonorable discharge" is specified in the gun control act of 1968 as being a firearms prohibition just like a felony conviction.

A "bad conduct discharge" is not, itself a legal bar to fireams purchase or possession.

The fact that the suspect received a 12 month sentence from a court martial for domestic violence should have made him a prohibited person under the Lautenberg amendment.

The question is did the USAF or DOD put that information into NCIC / NICS.

In my experience the military justice system is bad about interfacing with the regular justice system.

[HCM]

I approve this treatment of dead scumbags, and feel it should be followed universally.



Pretty sure a BCD plus 12 months hard time = convicted felon. The phrase that I recall is that "It's a crime to be convicted under the UCMJ."

One of the O's here can confirm it, they spend more time studying the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the Manual for Courts Martial than us knuckle-dragging NCOs.
(@ranger? Suvorov?)

BCD does not equal Dishonorable Discharge.

In the civilian system a high grade misdemeanor is punishable by "up to" 1 year imprisonment. So a civilian could get 12 months jail on a misdemeanor conviction and still not be a felon.

[Amp]

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton (R) indicated during an interview with Fox News’s Brian Kilmeade that the response to the Texas church shooting should be more armed law-abiding citizens rather than more gun control.


http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/11/06/texas-ag-response-church-shooting-armed-law-abiding-citizens-not-gun-control/

[willie]

Currently, handguns can not be carried legally in Texas churches, license or not. That will probably change.

Copy cat behavior seems to be a part of mass killing.

[Zincwarrior]

Currently, handguns can not be carried legally in Texas churches, license or not. That will probably change.

Copy cat behavior seems to be a part of mass killing.
THAT IS NOT ACCURATE.

The law may have been originally that way, but that has not been correct for multiple years. Churches may place .3006 or .3007 signs but absent that, CC or OC are permitted.

[HCM]

THAT IS NOT ACCURATE.

The law may have been originally that way, but that has not been correct for multiple years. Churches may place .3006 or .3007 signs but absent that, CC or OC are permitted.

This ^^^

[AlwaysLearning]

Currently, handguns can not be carried legally in Texas churches, license or not. That will probably change.

Copy cat behavior seems to be a part of mass killing.

The media makes this worse by promoting coverage. Senior editors at all the major publications are likely hyping these stories hoping that the media coverage will lead to mass gun bans. It's wholly irresponsible behavior. We know from studies of suicides that coverage produces clusters of suicides; why would it be any different for mass killings? Maybe journalists should change how they report these stories?

We'll never hear a journalist calling for restrictions on the First Amendment though, or even a more responsible exercise of First Amendment rights. Funny how it works that way.

[HCM]

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-gunmans-in-laws-attended-church-of-massacre/


Ex-friends say shooter was creepy atheist who berated religious people.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/ex-friends-say-shooter-was-creepy-atheist-who-berated-religious-people/

[Peally]

We'll never hear a journalist calling for restrictions on the First Amendment though, or even a more responsible exercise of First Amendment rights. Funny how it works that way.

"Journalist" is an equivalent career to "murder hype man" as far as I give a shit.

[Tabasco]

"Journalist" is an equivalent career to "murder hype man" as far as I give a shit.

Here's a quote from another site I frequent:

"Television’s antisocial contract with sociopaths: You provide the mortality, we’ll provide the immortality. A growing public hazard: being converted into content."

[SamAdams]

My bet is the mainstream media will bury this story with coverage of the next major event that happens somewhere in the world. Armed Joe Citizens preventing further bloodshed of innocents does Not advance their agenda.


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[fuse]

My bet is the mainstream media will bury this story with coverage of the next major event that happens somewhere in the world. Armed Joe Citizens preventing further bloodshed of innocents does Not advance their agenda.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProDoubtful, as he still killed 26 people. That's the 5th-highest mass shooting. I agree though they'll downplay the way this came to an end. Homeboy surely saved innocent lives, but 'surely saved innocent lives' is not much of a story. And ironically, had he intervened sooner, and say only 8 lives were lost, that too would make this incident much less of a news story because 8 lives? That's like a slow Tuesday in Chicago.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[fuse]

It's already begun -

"Kelley fled and was chased, eventually running off of the roadway. He apparently took his own life, officials said."

From
http://wapo.st/2h8ITuK

Or maybe now that's the current understand of what occurred.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[HCM]

Texas massacre followed ‘domestic situation’ involving gunman's family; his mother-in-law had attended the church

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/11/06/investigators-hunt-for-motive-in-texas-church-shooting-as-the-grieving-spans-generations/?utm_term=.91ac9e315e01

From San Antonio Express-News - "Church shooter sent mother-in-law threatening text messages prior to massacre"

https://mobile.twitter.com/mySA/status/927586072535752711?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp %5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[HCM]

It's already begun -

"Kelley fled and was chased, eventually running off of the roadway. He apparently took his own life, officials said."

From
http://wapo.st/2h8ITuK

Or maybe now that's the current understand of what occurred.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Both versions are floating around. It will get figured out eventually.

[RoyGBiv]

THAT IS NOT ACCURATE.

The law may have been originally that way, but that has not been correct for multiple years. Churches may place .3006 or .3007 signs but absent that, CC or OC are permitted.
TX Legislature went a half step further this year when it enacted HB 435 (http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/85R/billtext/html/HB00435F.htm), a law that provides "defense to prosecution" for "Volunteer Emergency Service Personnel" to carry past 30.06 and 30.07 signs (all the time) and to carry in schools and other prohibited places when "engaged in providing" emergency services...

A half step because it only applies to volunteers and not to all civilians and not to full-time paid first responders (who fall under the discretion of their employers policies).

TX also approved legislative exemption for organized volunteer church security. Previously, church security volunteers risked running afoul of laws requiring "security" personnel to be licensed (training, time, cost, etc). Text is buried in SB2065 (http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/85R/billtext/html/SB02065F.htm)

[Amp]

John Lovell's thoughts on church security:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OoTGkSNQgA

[willie]

HCM and Zincwarrior corrected the misinformation in my post about handgun carry being illegal in Texas churches even with a license. The law has changed, and it's up to individual churches to post or not post signs prohibiting the practice. I learned that my out of date information was wrong.

Thanks to these guys for catching and correcting my error.

[Zincwarrior]

TX Legislature went a half step further this year when it enacted HB 435 (http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/85R/billtext/html/HB00435F.htm), a law that provides "defense to prosecution" for "Volunteer Emergency Service Personnel" to carry past 30.06 and 30.07 signs (all the time) and to carry in schools and other prohibited places when "engaged in providing" emergency services...

A half step because it only applies to volunteers and not to all civilians and not to full-time paid first responders (who fall under the discretion of their employers policies).


Roy can you provide more color on what exactly that means, for the slow like myself? what is a voluntary emergency service person? Is that an EMT or volunteer firefighter or such? Not sure what that is.

To the other section, i think that was because churches were afraid of setting up volunteer security committees that weren't licensed police or armed security. is that correct?

[Zincwarrior]

HCM and Zincwarrior corrected the misinformation in my post about handgun carry being illegal in Texas churches even with a license. The law has changed, and it's up to individual churches to post or not post signs prohibiting the practice. I learned that my out of date information was wrong.

Thanks to these guys for catching and correcting my error.

Don't knock yourself as that is a common misconception and is even taught incorrectly in some CHL classes.

[RoyGBiv]

Roy can you provide more color on what exactly that means, for the slow like myself? what is a voluntary emergency service person? Is that an EMT or volunteer firefighter or such? Not sure what that is.
From the new law....

(2) "Volunteer emergency services personnel" has the
meaning assigned by Section 46.01, Penal Code.

[and later in the same Bill.... emphasis is mine (RGB)]

Section 46.01, Penal Code, is amended by adding
Subdivision (18) to read as follows:
(18) "Volunteer emergency services personnel"
includes a volunteer firefighter, an emergency medical services
volunteer as defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code,
and any individual who, as a volunteer, provides services for the
benefit of the general public during emergency situations. The
term does not include a peace officer or reserve law enforcement
officer, as those terms are defined by Section 1701.001,
Occupations Code, who is performing law enforcement duties.

My interpretation/opinion... not legal advice.
A volunteer firefighter would, I believe, always be covered by this new law. A paid/professional firefighter/EMT/LEO would not. IMO, many other volunteer jobs would also be covered, but there is no case law that says clearly what job is "in" and what job is "out". Personal example: I am a member of two "emergency" (says so on my ID) volunteer organizations, both chartered under FEMA. These groups are called up when needed to help with various emergencies in support of local First Responders, weather emergencies, etc. We've done S&R after tornadoes, staffed hurricane shelters, were called out for a Silver Alert search last week (first time for me working with search dogs... very cool!), etc. I have two sets of government issued credentials that clearly document my membership in these organizations... I feel pretty confident that I can invoke the new "defense to prosecution" if I'm cited for a 30.06/.07 violation. I enjoy shopping at Sprouts again. ;)

I have read discussions where people are postulating that "since I am willing to respond to any local emergency" that they would also fall under the definition of VESP. In my opinion, I believe this is completely incorrect but wish them success if they ever need to use that fact as a defense to prosecution.


To the other section, i think that was because churches were afraid of setting up volunteer security committees that weren't licensed police or armed security. is that correct?
I believe the problem was that it was illegal to hold yourself as a "church security person" because "security Person" was clearly defined in the occupations code as needing specific training and licensing, with no exceptions for volunteers. Churches could not legally arrange for parishioners to form "security" teams without the volunteers (as individuals) violating the occupations code.

IANAL... this is just my personal interpretation.

[Amp]

The Texas church shooter acquired his gun via a background check at a retail sporting goods store in San Antonio.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/11/06/texas-church-shooter-passed-background-check-gun/

[Zincwarrior]

From the new law....


My interpretation/opinion... not legal advice.
A volunteer firefighter would, I believe, always be covered by this new law. A paid/professional firefighter/EMT/LEO would not. IMO, many other volunteer jobs would also be covered, but there is no case law that says clearly what job is "in" and what job is "out". Personal example: I am a member of two "emergency" (says so on my ID) volunteer organizations, both chartered under FEMA. These groups are called up when needed to help with various emergencies in support of local First Responders, weather emergencies, etc. We've done S&R after tornadoes, staffed hurricane shelters, were called out for a Silver Alert search last week (first time for me working with search dogs... very cool!), etc. I have two sets of government issued credentials that clearly document my membership in these organizations... I feel pretty confident that I can invoke the new "defense to prosecution" if I'm cited for a 30.06/.07 violation. I enjoy shopping at Sprouts again. ;)

I have read discussions where people are postulating that "since I am willing to respond to any local emergency" that they would also fall under the definition of VESP. In my opinion, I believe this is completely incorrect but wish them success if they ever need to use that fact as a defense to prosecution.


I believe the problem was that it was illegal to hold yourself as a "church security person" because "security Person" was clearly defined in the occupations code as needing specific training and licensing, with no exceptions for volunteers. Churches could not legally arrange for parishioners to form "security" teams without the volunteers (as individuals) violating the occupations code.

IANAL... this is just my personal interpretation.

Thanks!

[Chance]

Updates from BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41892838):



Texas church gunman Devin Patrick Kelley was armed with three guns and had argued with his mother-in-law before the rampage, officials say.

The attack on the small church outside San Antonio during Sunday services left 26 people dead and 20 injured.

Kelley called his father after he was shot by an armed bystander and said he did not think he would survive.

He was not legally permitted to own the weapons, which included a semi-automatic rifle and two handguns.

Freeman Martin, the regional director for the Texas Department of Public Safety, told reporters it appeared that Kelley died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound after first being shot by a "Good Samaritan".

"This was not racially motivated, it wasn't over religious beliefs," Mr Martin said.

"There was a domestic situation going on with the family and in-laws," he said, adding that the mother-in-law had received threatening text messages from Kelley in recent days.

....

He received a "bad conduct" discharge two years later, according to Ann Stefanek, a US Air Force spokeswoman.

Texas Governor Greg Abbott said on Monday: "It's clear this is a person who had violent tendencies, who had some challenges, and someone who was a powder keg, seeming waiting to go off."

Mr Abbott added that the attacker should not legally have been allowed to own a firearm, after having been denied a gun owner's permit by the state.

The suspect had a licence to work as an unarmed security guard, a job that police described as "similar to a security guard at a concert-type situation".

"There were no disqualifiers entered into the national crime information database to preclude him from receiving a private security licence," Mr Martin said.


The guy was in a fight with his in-laws so he kills 26 unrelated people? And the state bounced his CHL application but he wasn't in NICS?

[RoyGBiv]

Updates from BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41892838):



The guy was in a fight with his in-laws so he kills 26 unrelated people? And the state bounced his CHL application but he wasn't in NICS?
IIRC, TX LTC application requires disclosure of military discharge status and anything less than "General under Honarable Conditions" is disqualifying... I may not be exactly correct on that.. OTH may be ok depending on the details.

I assume that NICS does not disqualify based on discharge status... ?? Not sure on that one at all.

[SamAdams]

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/06/trump-says-texas-church-shooting-caused-by-mental-health-problem-not-guns.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[HCM]

IIRC, TX LTC application requires disclosure of military discharge status and anything less than "General under Honarable Conditions" is disqualifying... I may not be exactly correct on that.. OTH may be ok depending on the details.

I assume that NICS does not disqualify based on discharge status... ?? Not sure on that one at all.

Correct. The standards for a Texas LTC are more stringent than the standards to purchase or own a gun under both federal and Texas state laws.

It is not uncommon for people to be ineligible for a Texas LTC but not be a prohibited person due to non DV misdemeanor convictions.

In fact, many of the "Open Carry Texas" people fell into this demographic.

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=52711

Texas LTC requirements here:
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/GV/htm/GV.411.htm#411.172

[Zincwarrior]

IIRC, TX LTC application requires disclosure of military discharge status and anything less than "General under Honarable Conditions" is disqualifying... I may not be exactly correct on that.. OTH may be ok depending on the details.

I assume that NICS does not disqualify based on discharge status... ?? Not sure on that one at all.

It should on the domestic though. I remember that question on the form. Am I missing something?

[NickA]

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/06/trump-says-texas-church-shooting-caused-by-mental-health-problem-not-guns.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProI really like the way Joe Rogan summed this up: "This country has a mental health problem disguised as a gun problem, and a tyranny problem disguised as a security problem."

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

[TGS]

It should on the domestic though. I remember that question on the form. Am I missing something?

Correct.

Something in between his charge (which would have made him a prohibited person) and the background check has apparently failed to function properly.

Could have been a typo by a clerk.

Could have been an improper (or missing) NCIC entry.

At this point we don't know, but something has obviously failed to work as it was supposed to.

[GardoneVT]

If past tragic events are any guide,it's clear even if every systemic legal check worked and he was denied legal ownership of guns , he'd have simply stolen them elsewhere -or used other means to act on his violent intent.

[TAZ]

It should on the domestic though. I remember that question on the form. Am I missing something?

True, but as I’m learning, we are relying on the federal government having the ability to communicate within its own org structure. He was supposedly convicted in the military for DV. The USAF would then need to convey that info to the NICS folks.

99% of the security things our governments have in place are feel good.

[HCM]

It should on the domestic though. I remember that question on the form. Am I missing something?

But if the USAF never put the suspects records into NCIC / TCIC There is nothing in the system to check his answers against

[GardoneVT]

But if the USAF never put the suspects records into NCIC / TCIC There is nothing in the system to check his answers against

And?

A certain Norwegian dirtbag killed a lot of people with guns ,in a country where most are banned for civilian use and ownership. There isn't a checkbox on the planet that can stop a determined attacker.

[HCM]

And?

A certain Norwegian dirtbag killed a lot of people with guns ,in a country where most are banned for civilian use and ownership. There isn't a checkbox on the planet that can stop a determined attacker.

Not the point. This is not the first time I've seen the USAF drop the ball on criminal matters.

[Willard]

Didn't see it posted elsewhere, but the Texas hero who stopped the killer used an AR to do so. About 1:31 https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/watch/texas-rangers-church-shooter-linked-to-domestic-situation/vp-AAuvXtH

[GardoneVT]

Not the point. This is not the first time I've seen the USAF drop the ball on criminal matters.

Every agency has at some point dropped the ball.

The point I'm making is the "game" is irrelevant to the outcome . NICS flag or not the shooter was likely to be a Problem. Let's flip the narrative - we might have had a higher body count had the Samaritan not been legally armed when he was.

[HCM]

Every agency has at some point dropped the ball.

The point I'm making is the "game" is irrelevant to the outcome . NICS flag or not the shooter was likely to be a Problem. Let's flip the narrative - we might have had a higher body count had the Samaritan not been legally armed when he was.

Not MIGHT HAVE HAD - WOULD HAVE HAD - that is not in question nor does it excuse whom ever dropped the ball with this suspect TX records. The fact this suspect was likely to be a problem sooner or later is what we have the damn records for in the first place.

[NETim]

Security Theater. Few know The Keystone Kops was actually a documentary made about the Federal government.

[JHC]

Interview with one of the courageous citizens that answered the call to stop evil before law enforcement arrived.

I used to talk shit about folks with neck tatts.

No more.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwYd2kIZxk4

A fine specimen of a millennial too. Like many I know. Love this kid.

[AMC]

Anyone else find it very annoying and increasingly odd that foreign news services (BBC, UK DailyMail) have better, more complete and up to date info on US events than our own media?

[Suvorov]

A fine specimen of a millennial too. Like many I know. Love this kid.

It is becoming more and more apparent in my travels that Texas has some of the finest people on the planet. While I may decry the heat, lack of grandiose vertical terrain, and fire ants, there would probably be fewer places better for me to raise my kids.

[Lester Polfus]

A fine specimen of a millennial too. Like many I know. Love this kid.

I think millennials are getting a bad rap. I deal with twenty somethings everyday that are tough as wood pecker lips and spent most of their 4 year enlistment downrange.

[Joe in PNG]

I think millennials are getting a bad rap. I deal with twenty somethings everyday that are tough as wood pecker lips and spent most of their 4 year enlistment downrange.

You hear far more about the minority of spoiled, whiny little special snowflakes far more often than the majority of regular people who live regular type lives.
And even a good part of the whiny snowflakes will grow up and out of the sophomoric stupidity that tends to define youth.

[BillSWPA]

Anyone else find it very annoying and increasingly odd that foreign news services (BBC, UK DailyMail) have better, more complete and up to date info on US events than our own media?

I have been noticing this for years, and much of our own media should be ashamed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JHC]

I think millennials are getting a bad rap. I deal with twenty somethings everyday that are tough as wood pecker lips and spent most of their 4 year enlistment downrange.

Fuckin A brav

[hufnagel]

You hear far more about the minority of spoiled, whiny little special snowflakes far more often than the majority of regular people who live regular type lives.
And even a good part of the whiny snowflakes will grow up and out of the sophomoric stupidity that tends to define youth.

I think I might resemble that remark.

[Malamute]

Anyone else find it very annoying and increasingly odd that foreign news services (BBC, UK DailyMail) have better, more complete and up to date info on US events than our own media?

BBC, Reuters, Daily Mail, and Guardian often turn up fairly good coverage on US news that hasnt gone mainstream here yet. Yes, somewhat odd, and annoying that the home team seems to fumble the ball a lot. Their international coverage is also usually pretty up to speed.

[Tabasco]

BBC, Reuters, Daily Mail, and Guardian often turn up fairly good coverage on US news that hasnt gone mainstream here yet. Yes, somewhat odd, and annoying that the home team seems to fumble the ball a lot. Their international coverage is also usually pretty up to speed.

BBC , etc. at least try to get the facts as best they can. That culture in the US broadcast media is long gone. They try to shape their reporting around what they think their target audience want's to hear, as it's all about attracting viewers and ratings. In addition, they are totally lost in their 'progressive' group think that shapes how they perceive events.

[Tabasco]

You hear far more about the minority of spoiled, whiny little special snowflakes far more often than the majority of regular people who live regular type lives.
And even a good part of the whiny snowflakes will grow up and out of the sophomoric stupidity that tends to define youth.

I find the difference between 'urban' and 'rural' Millennials to illustrate nicely the urban rural divide splitting the US these days. Since moving the the 'rural' US, most of the Millennials I've met are pretty switched on kids, as opposed the urban variety (read SF Bay Area) who fall into the special snowflake category. This guy is a great example of the 'rural' variety.

[TAZ]

Anyone else find it very annoying and increasingly odd that foreign news services (BBC, UK DailyMail) have better, more complete and up to date info on US events than our own media?

Different agendas. US MSN has an agenda that isn’t about reporting the info, but shaping public opinion and swaying people towards the dark Progressive side of the debate. OUS media has little dog in the fight, so they stick to reporting. See how they report local news and you’ll se the very same biases.

[Lester Polfus]

I find the difference between 'urban' and 'rural' Millennials to illustrate nicely the urban rural divide splitting the US these days. Since moving the the 'rural' US, most of the Millennials I've met are pretty switched on kids, as opposed the urban variety (read SF Bay Area) who fall into the special snowflake category. This guy is a great example of the 'rural' variety.

I think that's a good insight. I raised daughter #1 (who is now 22yo) in a suburb of Portland, Oregon and wished I hadn't. Snowflake city.

I moved to a much more rural area and had daughter #2 (now 3yo) and I'm not regretting it. In suburbia, I was a fucking right wing neanderthal, out here I'm a pinko leftist, all of which means I'm pretty middle of the road. But I run into lots of competent, confident kids out here, so I'm glad I'm raising daughter #2 here.

If we had a shooting like this in our area, I can very easily see the locals settling his hash before the SO deputies got here. Hell, it might be a 14 year old with a Marlin youth model and a hunter safety card that puts an end to it. Not so much in Portland.

[Bigghoss]

USAF is taking heat now for not reporting his info which allowed him to buy guns.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/air-force-failed-to-submit-texas-shooters-criminal-history/ar-AAuwkQ7

[GardoneVT]

USAF is taking heat now for not reporting his info which allowed him to buy guns.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/air-force-failed-to-submit-texas-shooters-criminal-history/ar-AAuwkQ7

That's some fresh bullshit right there. At the commands I worked under quite a few law abiding active duty people couldn't even own guns- no signature on AF Form 1314( might be a different doc number now) from The Commander ,no gats for you. Typically if there's even a hint of DV SF is at your doorstep to retrieve the guns.

For OSI to miss inputting his data AND to seize his weapons as per Lautenberg is a serious list of fuckups. Probably wouldn't have stopped him,but if you're gonna enforce the law it should be enforced on everyone.

[Clusterfrack]

I think that's a good insight. I raised daughter #1 (who is now 22yo) in a suburb of Portland, Oregon and wished I hadn't. Snowflake city.

...

Not so much in Portland.

... my Portland girls are good shots.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171107/757de94c80ea5c6042348895d3f2c8f7.jpg

[El Cid]

That's some fresh bullshit right there. At the commands I worked under quite a few law abiding active duty people couldn't even own guns- no signature on AF Form 1314( might be a different doc number now) from The Commander ,no gats for you. Typically if there's even a hint of DV SF is at your doorstep to retrieve the guns.

For OSI to miss inputting his data AND to seize his weapons as per Lautenberg is a serious list of fuckups. Probably wouldn't have stopped him,but if you're gonna enforce the law it should be enforced on everyone.

I don't think that's what happened. The 1314 registered on base guns with the LE Desk. Anyone in a dorm had to store them in the base armory. Those of us in housing could keep them at home. Those of us off base - the AF had no visibility on what we owned.

This turd was in prison his last year in the AF and wouldn't have had access to firearms for them to seize. They did screw the pooch by not entering him in the system.

[KeithH]

Its official. The armed citizen hit him twice.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/us/texas-church-shooting/index.html

[RoyGBiv]

First video I've seen of Stephen Willeford. Second video is from his cousin, relaying details I can only assume are from Willeford.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/06/texan-who-engaged-shooter-shares-his-story-video/

[LittleLebowski]

Updated OP with interview of the guy that engaged the asshole.

[Peally]

Give em bounties. Instead of glorifying and obsessing over the shitstains there should be rewards to actually useful people ending them.

[GardoneVT]

I don't think that's what happened. The 1314 registered on base guns with the LE Desk. Anyone in a dorm had to store them in the base armory. Those of us in housing could keep them at home. Those of us off base - the AF had no visibility on what we owned.

This turd was in prison his last year in the AF and wouldn't have had access to firearms for them to seize. They did screw the pooch by not entering him in the system.

Was not so at my unit. Squadron policy when I was in mandated ALL personnel who owned guns had to file an AF1314 regardless of the members residential zip code,on post or off. It is as you say most of the time- that said ,IIRC Ft Hood had just happened when I bought my first gun and the DoD locked down anything to do with members & firearms for a long while afterwards.

[breakingtime91]

Just found out a guy I met through my wife's job lost both his parents during the shooting. Great guy and a blast to party with. Really feeling for the guy as he is a great military officer and person..

[LittleLebowski]

Give em bounties. Instead of glorifying and obsessing over the shitstains there should be rewards to actually useful people ending them.

I'm of the "don't publicize their name" mindset for these rabid dogs that should have been knocked in the head when they were born.

[idahojess]

I'm of the "don't publicize their name" mindset for these rabid dogs that should have been knocked in the head when they were born.

Or their picture...

[Chance]

So the shooter was struck in the leg and the torso and was apparently wearing a ballistic plate in the front. Is there any indication the good guy using a rifle had a practical effect from either a ballistic or capacity standpoint?

[TicTacticalTimmy]

So the shooter was struck in the leg and the torso and was apparently wearing a ballistic plate in the front. Is there any indication the good guy using a rifle had a practical effect from either a ballistic or capacity standpoint?

Yes. Among other reasons, after being shot tue shooter called his dad and told hin he didnt think he was gonna make it.

[NickA]

I'm of the "don't publicize their name" mindset for these rabid dogs that should have been knocked in the head when they were born.During the press conference last night I was glad to see that both the DPS and FBI guys refused to use his name. Unfortunately the media is all too happy to make him famous.

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Here is the first long form interview with the Good Samaritan, which goes into great detail. Seems like a great all around guy:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HEchh0XD8

[El Cid]

Was not so at my unit. Squadron policy when I was in mandated ALL personnel who owned guns had to file an AF1314 regardless of the members residential zip code,on post or off. It is as you say most of the time- that said ,IIRC Ft Hood had just happened when I bought my first gun and the DoD locked down anything to do with members & firearms for a long while afterwards.

Wow! We do give up some rights when in uniform, but I never encountered a commander or shirt so strict about it. Now if you had said big Army I wouldn't have been surprised, but I always felt like the AF did a better job of treating us like adults than the other services. Was it base wide or just your squadron?

On topic, I wonder if the plumber has a spare AR while the one he used is in evidence? A crowd fund for one would be pretty cool if he doesn't.

[GardoneVT]

Wow! We do give up some rights when in uniform, but I never encountered a commander or shirt so strict about it. Now if you had said big Army I wouldn't have been surprised, but I always felt like the AF did a better job of treating us like adults than the other services. Was it base wide or just your squadron?

On topic, I wonder if the plumber has a spare AR while the one he used is in evidence? A crowd fund for one would be pretty cool if he doesn't.

IIRC it was squadron wide. The Air Force offers wide latitude to local commanders on setting gun policies. I know at that time there was an Air Force base in NJ that barred gun ownership for permanent party members period. Pretty jacked up when a dude on TDY has rights permanent personell don't at the same base.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

From a Texas Monthly executive editor:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/opinion/sutherland-springs-texas-church-shooting.html

Mocks the state, mocks the good samaritans. I think I won't be buying anymore issues. I used to like the BBQ issue.

[RoyGBiv]

From a Texas Monthly executive editor:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/opinion/sutherland-springs-texas-church-shooting.html

Mocks the state, mocks the good samaritans. I think I won't be buying anymore issues. I used to like the BBQ issue.

That's not going to go over well with some folks I know. <shared>

[ragnar_d]

I have been noticing this for years, and much of our own media should be ashamed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ditto. Most the time I get better information on events like this from Dailymail than any US outlet. Probably been that way for 8-9 years . . . at least that's when I first started noticing it.


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[Mike C]

Mods, please let me know if this isn't okay. I didn't see any donation pages posted yet. I feel the urge to donate, I thought maybe others might be interested too. You can donate through the churches Facebook page found here: https://www.facebook.com/firstbaptistchurchsutherlandsprings/ or you can use the churches actual web site found here: http://ssfb.net. There are also an individual fundraiser setup for the Hill family who lost eight family members, that page is found here: https://www.gofundme.com/hill-family-church-shooting. I could not find any other individual pages, but I am sure there are. Many web postings say that the church and families can use non-perishable goods at the moment. I imagine they could be mailed directly to the church. For all the talk about how this country needs to become more unified this a a prime opportunity to come together and show support.

[LittleLebowski]

From a Texas Monthly executive editor:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/opinion/sutherland-springs-texas-church-shooting.html

Mocks the state, mocks the good samaritans. I think I won't be buying anymore issues. I used to like the BBQ issue.

That was VILE. She needs to be fired now.

[Robinson]

That was VILE. She needs to be fired now.

Yes. But not only is the article VILE it is also inaccurate. Probably intentionally.

[SamAdams]

So the shooter was struck in the leg and the torso and was apparently wearing a ballistic plate in the front. Is there any indication the good guy using a rifle had a practical effect from either a ballistic or capacity standpoint?

I’d imagine the murderer thought it wasn’t a good idea to hang around after getting shot twice. That is definitely a practical effect IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Lester Polfus]

I’d imagine the murderer thought it wasn’t a good idea to hang around after getting shot twice. That is definitely a practical effect IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I agree. We've seen time after time that whenever one of these assholes meets any effective resistance they change course, often by offing themselves.

[Peally]

A journalist being a useless cunt isn't too noteworthy.

[s0nspark]

Updated OP with interview of the guy that engaged the asshole.

That was an awesome interview...

[Dagga Boy]

That's not going to go over well with some folks I know. <shared>


That was VILE. She needs to be fired now.

Looking at posts on their Facebook Page it needs to be renamed "Weird Austin Monthly" and looks like it is home for the "ban all guns and repeal the 2nd amendment" folks. I will never buy another issue.

[RJ]

Still getting my head wrapped around this.

Kinda numb I guess.

I am stuck on the victims, particularly the children.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/us/texas-church-shooting-victims-list/index.html

Noah Holcomb was (I believe) the youngest at 17 months.

17.

Months.

It is hard to come to grips with.

[Chance]

Police are reporting the size of the congregation was 50.

[Chance]

From a Texas Monthly executive editor:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/opinion/sutherland-springs-texas-church-shooting.html

Mocks the state, mocks the good samaritans. I think I won't be buying anymore issues. I used to like the BBQ issue.

I didn't really read that as her mocking the good guys, just the gun lobby and pro-gun politicians. It's the sort of rambling nonsense I'd expect from an NYT editorial.

[OlongJohnson]

Police are reporting the size of the congregation was 50.

Yeah. Basically everybody got shot.

[OlongJohnson]

From a Texas Monthly executive editor:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/opinion/sutherland-springs-texas-church-shooting.html

Mocks the state, mocks the good samaritans. I think I won't be buying anymore issues. I used to like the BBQ issue.

Of course. She went to school in Amherst, MA. Wouldn't surprise me if she's friends with Healey.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mimi-swartz-1973036/

https://www.linkedin.com/school/21340/

[Chance]

Updates from BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41907943):


The gunman who killed 26 churchgoers in Texas escaped a mental health clinic in 2012, according to a police report.

El Paso officers who detained Devin Kelley were told he was "a danger to himself and others".

Kelley had been sent to the hospital after he was court-martialled for assaulting his ex-wife and stepson during his stint in the US Air Force.

He was "attempting to carry out death threats" against "his military chain of command", the report states.

Officials say the assault should have legally barred him from owning guns.

El Paso police arrested Kelley at a bus terminal in downtown El Paso on the evening of 7 June 2012, according to a police report first revealed by KPRC in Houston.

In the report, police wrote that Kelley had escaped from Peak Behavioral Health Services in Santa Teresa, New Mexico, about 100 miles (160km) away.

The person who reported him missing from the facility told police Kelley "suffered from mental disorders".

Kelley "had already been caught sneaking firearms onto Holloman Air Force Base", the report adds.

Later that year, Kelley pleaded guilty in a military court to repeatedly assaulting his wife and his toddler stepson.

[Peally]

And people say institutions are immoral.

[Mike C]

Updates from BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41907943):

If all of these things are true fuck everyone involved that should have but didn’t take appropriate measures to ensure that the piece of shit couldn’t have legally bought a firearm. (If that is how they were obtained.) I️ honestly don’t think it would have stopped the piece of shit but it would have at least made it more difficult for him. I️ hope these things are investigated and if someone dropped the ball I️ hope they get their nuts slammed in a door for not doing the right thing.

[AMC]

The justice system's failure to adequately deal with this monster is revolting but not surprising to any of us who have spent any time in LE. The cries of "How was this maniac walking the streets!?!" are familiar but hollow. This is frankly par for the course. We are producing more of these people at the same time many jurisdictions are again leaping headlong into the "therapuetic" model of criminal justice. We deal routinely with crooks who have 50, 75, 100 felony charges on their record. The reality isn't that it's all broken.....it's that it's all more hopelessly broken than most people are willing to face...and it's getting worse. And again, in my opinion....it's by design.

[JAD]

It is hard to come to grips with.

1 Peter 5:8.

[Zincwarrior]

That was VILE. She needs to be fired now.

Interesting that one can't comment on that story there...

[TAZ]

The justice system's failure to adequately deal with this monster is revolting but not surprising to any of us who have spent any time in LE. The cries of "How was this maniac walking the streets!?!" are familiar but hollow. This is frankly par for the course. We are producing more of these people at the same time many jurisdictions are again leaping headlong into the "therapuetic" model of criminal justice. We deal routinely with crooks who have 50, 75, 100 felony charges on their record. The reality isn't that it's all broken.....it's that it's all more hopelessly broken than most people are willing to face...and it's getting worse. And again, in my opinion....it's by design.

It’s sad to say, but I agree with you. The system is completely broken. Millions of hard working decent LEO playing little Dutch boy while the dam owners and engineers are unpacking bigger and bigger jack hammers.

My theory has always been that there is a relatively small % of the population that is predisposed to serious criminal behavior. These are the folks we refuse to put away or down, cause we seem to find the next squirrel to focus on. It’s also part of the whole Alansky thing. Keep putting more and more pressure on the system (catch and release) till it breaks and people cry for anything different. Then spring Progressive Socialism upon them.

[HCM]

The host just keep on coming with this guy:

Four allegations of sexual abuse, harassment made against Sutherland Springs gunman

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Four-allegations-of-sexual-abuse-harassment-made-12338750.php

[TAZ]

If it wasn’t so disgustingly sad, this would be comical. This is now what the 4th opportunity for the legal system to remove this animal from circulation, yet punted. Fucking disgusting.

[Drang]

If it wasn’t so disgustingly sad, this would be comical. This is now what the 4th opportunity for the legal system to remove this animal from circulation, yet punted. Fucking disgusting.

Thus illustrating the problem with relying on "common sense regulations" -- when you come down to it, you're counting on some bureaucrat to press the correct button, to not accidentally delete the file, to do timely backups...
Or, for that matter, for the system not to go down.

[Drang]

I just posted this to my blog:

The Second Amendment Dichotomy
It seems to me that the tragic events over the weekend in Sutherland, Texas, bring the two sides of the gun control "debate" into stark relief.

The gun controllers would have everyone believe that all gun owners everywhere are just like the murderous scumbag.

Pro-gun folks hold up the likes of Stephen Willeford and Johnnie Langendorff as role models and ideals.

(We'd like to believe they're typical of gun owners, but I prefer to go with "role models and ideals".)

The evidence shows we're closer to the truth than the gun banners.

[Chance]

The host just keep on coming with this guy:


By my count, this dude should have been a prohibited person at least three times over. This has taught me that if I ever see warning flags like this to do my best to try and make sure the appropriate authorities follow up, however: how exactly am I supposed to do that? How can an average guy encourage investigators / prosecutors to follow up to this stuff without coming across as having an axe to grind?

<thread derail> Seeing how quickly all of this is coming to light after the shooting makes me really frustrated with the Vegas investigation. </thread derail>

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I do not understand why almost killing a baby gets you one year? Is that a military thing?

[HCM]

I do not understand why almost killing a baby gets you one year? Is that a military thing?

As best I can tell:

He was charged with 9 counts of assault on his first wife and his stepson which included choking the wife and fracturing the stepsons skull.

At some point he was caught trying to sneak firearms onto an Air Force base to retaliate against his chain of command and was placed in a mental hospital, which he then escaped from.

And all this got him a year in custody ? Apparently his potential sentence was 5 years.

On another note, I'm curious how the animal cruelty charges and multiple sexual assault allegations add to the mix of this guy's mental state.

[Peally]

It is extremely impressive that he didn't do something that got him brained earlier in life. Also impressive that it took him this long to attempt a murder spree.

[hufnagel]

can we get a comprehensive list of charges/crimes that SHOULD have disqualified him, in the first post? 161 posts trying to search are making my head hurt.

also it'd be good for the future when someone is doing research on here.

[HCM]

can we get a comprehensive list of charges/crimes that SHOULD have disqualified him, in the first post? 161 posts trying to search are making my head hurt.

also it'd be good for the future when someone is doing research on here.

Might want to wait a bit and see if anything else comes to light.

[Robinson]

It is extremely impressive that he didn't do something that got him brained earlier in life.

I'm sure this is at least partially due to the fact that it is illegal to beat such an asshole to death unless he/she is actively attacking someone.

[TAZ]

On another note, I'm curious how the animal cruelty charges and multiple sexual assault allegations add to the mix of this guy's mental state.

If my understanding of the timeline is accurate (I’m thinking 10% chance given the sources), the sexual assault charges were prior to enlistment and seem to drop off as in maybe someone pulled a not my monkey not my circus anymore thing. The animal cruelty happened after the BCD and since the USAF didn’t report on the DV he had a clean record aka first offense slap on wrist.

Basicslly numerous agencies had a chance to luck him up. Most of the guilt IMO goes to the USAF who, given the severity of charges and crazy behavior should have put him in a situation where he was still impaled on Bubbas shaft in Leavenworth today, but instead got rid of him ASAFP. No my monkey, not my circus. I’d love to see a good number of heads roll fir this from USAF staff. From the guy who didn’t get it done to his CO and up to the JAG corps guys involved with dispensing this crazy sentence. But I’m not going to hold my breath.

[NEPAKevin]

Thus illustrating the problem with relying on "common sense regulations" --

Yea, but the thing is, the people who think laws, restraining orders, background checks, etc. will keep them safe need their placebos to maintain that false sense of security.

[Drang]

Most of the guilt IMO goes to the USAF ...I’d love to see a good number of heads roll fir this from USAF staff.

How many other monsters are wandering around because of bureaucratic fuckups at some level by some organization?

Like I said earlier, doesn't even have to be a lenient judge or incompetent prosecutor, it could just be that someone clicked the wrong box, or selected the wrong item in a drop down menu. A backup failed, a system crashed halfway through uploading.

[Dagga Boy]

How many other monsters are wandering around because of bureaucratic fuckups at some level by some organization?

Like I said earlier, doesn't even have to be a lenient judge or incompetent prosecutor, it could just be that someone clicked the wrong box, or selected the wrong item in a drop down menu. A backup failed, a system crashed halfway through uploading.

Anyone who has worked the LE side of bureaucracy and government institutions will find this entire thing totally normal.

[blues]

Yea, but the thing is, the people who think laws, restraining orders, background checks, etc. will keep them safe need their placebos to maintain that false sense of security.

Ain't it the truth. It's heartbreaking to read of all the women murdered by men they had obtained restraining orders against, often within hours or days of the issuance.

We are each responsible for the defense of ourselves, our friends and relations.

[HCM]

If my understanding of the timeline is accurate (I’m thinking 10% chance given the sources), the sexual assault charges were prior to enlistment and seem to drop off as in maybe someone pulled a not my monkey not my circus anymore thing. The animal cruelty happened after the BCD and since the USAF didn’t report on the DV he had a clean record aka first offense slap on wrist.

Basicslly numerous agencies had a chance to luck him up. Most of the guilt IMO goes to the USAF who, given the severity of charges and crazy behavior should have put him in a situation where he was still impaled on Bubbas shaft in Leavenworth today, but instead got rid of him ASAFP. No my monkey, not my circus. I’d love to see a good number of heads roll fir this from USAF staff. From the guy who didn’t get it done to his CO and up to the JAG corps guys involved with dispensing this crazy sentence. But I’m not going to hold my breath.

They were both before and after his military time with the most serious, the rape allegation being after in 2013. It was reported the case was closed because he moved to Colorado but I would guess there were other issues with the case. Otherwise they could have simply indicted him and had him extradited back from Colorado.

[HCM]

Anyone who has worked the LE side of bureaucracy and government institutions will find this entire thing totally normal.

Yup.

[Drang]

I do not understand why almost killing a baby gets you one year? Is that a military thing?

UCMJ – United States Code of Military Justice (http://www.ucmj.us/)
Chapter 10, Punitive Articles.
Article 77 is the first Punitive Article, and Article 134 is the last one. Most of the first 30 or so are pretty much strictly military offenses. (Which is part of the reason that a conviction under the UCMJ does not necessarily = a felony conviction, as others correctly pointed out.)

The penalty under the UCMJ for murder is death or life imprisonment, the penalty for manslaughter, assault is "as a court martial may direct."

[Amp]

Texas church shooting not the first time a good guy with gun takes down mass shooter:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/08/texas-church-shooting-not-first-time-good-guy-with-gun-takes-down-mass-shooter.html

[Kevin B.]

UCMJ – United States Code of Military Justice (http://www.ucmj.us/)
Chapter 10, Punitive Articles.
Article 77 is the first Punitive Article, and Article 134 is the last one. Most of the first 30 or so are pretty much strictly military offenses. (Which is part of the reason that a conviction under the UCMJ does not necessarily = a felony conviction, as others correctly pointed out.)

The penalty under the UCMJ for murder is death or life imprisonment, the penalty for manslaughter, assault is "as a court martial may direct."

That site provides an incomplete version of the UCMJ. The punishment for assault per the 2012 version of the UCMJ is:

e. Maximum punishment.
(1) Simple assault.
(A) Generally. Confinement for 3 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months.
(B) When committed with an unloaded firearm. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

(2) Assault consummated by a battery. Bad conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

(3) Assault upon a commissioned officer of the armed forces of the United States or of a friendly foreign power, not in the execution of office. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

(4) Assault upon a warrant officer, not in the execution of office. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 18 months.

(5) Assault upon a noncommissioned or petty officer, not in the execution of office. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

(6) Assault upon a sentinel or lookout in the execution of duty, or upon any person who, in the execution of office, is performing security police, military police, shore patrol, master at arms, or other military or civilian law enforcement duties. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

(7) Assault consummated by a battery upon a child under 16 years. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

(8) Aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon or other means or force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm.
(a ) When committed with a loaded firearm. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 8 years.
(b ) Aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon or other means or force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm when committed upon a child under the age of 16 years. Dishonorable discharge, total forfeitures, and confinement for 5 years.
(c) Other cases. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

(9) Aggravated assault in which grievous bodily harm is intentionally inflicted.
(a) When the injury is inflicted with a loaded firearm. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 10 years.
(b) Aggravated assault in which grievous bodily harm is intentionally inflicted when committed upon a child under the age of 16 years. Dishonorable discharge, total forfeitures, and confinement for 8 years.
(c) Other cases. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/law/mcm.pdf

[Drang]

That site provides an incomplete version of the UCMJ. The punishment for assault per the 2012 version of the UCMJ is:


http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/law/mcm.pdf

Thanks for the update. I used the first one that popped up on a search, while drinking my first coffee... :(

[Kevin B.]

Thanks for the update. I used the first one that popped up on a search, while drinking my first coffee... :(

Happy to help. I was on a court-martial panel involving assault and did not recall "as a court martial may direct" being among the options when we determined punishment.

[HCM]

Report of shits fired - possible active shooter in Floresville TX (Wilson county)

http://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/authorities-responding-to-reports-of-shots-fired-in-floresville

[blues]

Report of shits fired - possible active shooter in Floresville TX (Wilson county)

http://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/authorities-responding-to-reports-of-shots-fired-in-floresville

Interesting Freudian slip...nonetheless, I hope this gets resolved quickly and decisively without any loss of life (except for the BG or BGs).

[fuse]

From a Texas Monthly executive editor:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/opinion/sutherland-springs-texas-church-shooting.html

Mocks the state, mocks the good samaritans. I think I won't be buying anymore issues. I used to like the BBQ issue.You can't be serious

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[NickA]

Interesting Freudian slip...nonetheless, I hope this gets resolved quickly and decisively without any loss of life (except for the BG or BGs).Thankfully it turned out to be a false alarm, no shots fired and no suspect found.
You can't be serious

Sent from my Nexus 6P using TapatalkI quit reading that fucking rag years ago (even though my wife grew up with one of their former writers,and he did a very cool article about her family). It's nothing but people like that awful woman, who only live here so that they can tell their fellow elitists what a beacon of light they are amongst us unwashed, unsophisticated Texas (m)asses.
Someone I grew up with does almost the same shit. She lives in NYC, and uses being"born in a small Texas town" as a marketing schtick. It's irksome.

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

Thankfully it turned out to be a false alarm, no shots fired and no suspect found.I quit reading that fucking rag years ago (even though my wife grew up with one of their former writers,and he did a very cool article about her family). It's nothing but people like that awful woman, who only live here so that they can tell their fellow elitists what a beacon of light they are amongst us unwashed, unsophisticated Texas (m)asses.
Someone I grew up with does almost the same shit. She lives in NYC, and uses being"born in a small Texas town" as a marketing schtick. It's irksome.

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

Yep, it should be called Progressive Liberals Texas Monthly. It is a beacon of for those who want to make Texas a blue state.

[HCM]

Interesting Freudian slip...nonetheless, I hope this gets resolved quickly and decisively without any loss of life (except for the BG or BGs).

A suspect was detained but this turned out to be a suspicious person, a suspect was detained but it was determined no shots were actually fired.

The nursing home where this was reported is 3 blocks from the high school where the VP, the Governor and other VIPs were scheduled to attend a service for the Sutherland Church shooting victims. Hence the big spin up.

[OlongJohnson]

Wrong thread for my add...

[Chance]

From Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/11/08/pentagon-known-crime-reporting-lapses-20-years.html):


The Pentagon has known for at least two decades about failures to give military criminal history information to the FBI, including the type of information the Air Force didn't report about the Texas church gunman who had assaulted his wife and stepson while an airman.

....

Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said Tuesday he has directed the Pentagon inspector general to review circumstances of the Kelley case and "define what the problem is."

At its core, the problem is that military criminal investigative organizations have too frequently, for too long, failed to comply with rules for reporting service members' criminal history data to the FBI.

As recently as February 2015, the Pentagon inspector general reported that hundreds of convicted offenders' fingerprints were not submitted to the FBI's criminal history database. The report found about a 30 percent failure rate for submitting fingerprints and criminal case outcomes. It did not determine the reasons for the lapses.

In February this year, the inspector general's office launched a new review to assess compliance with updated reporting requirements. A spokesman, Bruce Anderson, said that review is ongoing.

The problem has persisted much longer.

A February 1997 report by the Pentagon inspector general found widespread lapses. Fingerprint cards were not submitted to the FBI criminal history files in more than 80 percent of cases in the Army and Navy, and 38 percent in the Air Force.

Failure to report the outcome of criminal cases was 79 percent in the Army and 50 percent in the Air Force, the report said. In the Navy, it was 94 percent.

[RoyGBiv]

Devin Kelley, Cleared to Buy Guns Despite Beating His Wife and Son, Couldn't Get a Carry Permit Because He Beat His Dog (http://reason.com/blog/2017/11/09/devin-kelley-cleared-to-buy-guns-despite)


The upshot is that Kelley, who was triply disqualified from buying a gun because he beat his wife and son, repeatedly passed the FBI's background check but was unable to get a Texas carry permit because he beat his dog. [in Colorado!]

[HCM]

Devin Kelley, Cleared to Buy Guns Despite Beating His Wife and Son, Couldn't Get a Carry Permit Because He Beat His Dog (http://reason.com/blog/2017/11/09/devin-kelley-cleared-to-buy-guns-despite)

Texas shooter claimed to buy animals on Craigslist for 'target practice,' former colleague says

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/09/us/texas-church-shooting-former-colleague/index.html

Seems like a good call on the part of TX DPS.

[RoyGBiv]

Air Force ordered to pay more than $230M in church shooting (https://www.click2houston.com/news/texas/2022/02/07/air-force-ordered-to-pay-more-than-230m-in-church-shooting/)

SAN ANTONIO – The U.S. Air Force must pay more than $230 million in damages to survivors and victims’ families of a 2017 Texas church massacre (https://apnews.com/article/health-north-america-us-news-ap-top-news-sexual-assault-675f01bc4c514b0d98ef91b4950c0782) for failing to flag a conviction that might have kept the gunman from legally buying the weapon used in the shooting, a federal judge ruled in San Antonio on Monday.

[UNK]

Air Force ordered to pay more than $230M in church shooting (https://www.click2houston.com/news/texas/2022/02/07/air-force-ordered-to-pay-more-than-230m-in-church-shooting/)

Like the AF really gives a damn. Its not like they made the money. This is the budget for what two ball peen hammers and a space station toilet seat?

[Oldherkpilot]

Like the AF really gives a damn. Its not like they made the money. This is the budget for what two ball peen hammers and a space station toilet seat?

Whoa! Space station furniture is clearly NASA's bailiwick. Otherwise, sadly, I cannot dispute your statement.

[breakingtime91]

Like the AF really gives a damn. Its not like they made the money. This is the budget for what two ball peen hammers and a space station toilet seat?

There a article in the military time back on the 2010-2011 time frame that discussed how much the airforce spent on high speed treadmills and video game consoles for deployed troops vs small Arms budget the Marine Corps got the same year. Semper Gumby looked a lot different after that for me lol