1911 Long Ejector to Primer AD, my first AD/ND (I'd say AD??). Some lessons learned.

[newt]

Well, I had my first discharge that was not intentional. I'd say it's an AD, since I believe it to be a mechanical failure that caused the discharge. But it's arguable since I could have discovered the problem through better awareness of the symptoms I was seeing of the gun.

Anyway, the gun is a highly custom Colt 1991-A1 Commander from a top tier gunsmith. I was shooting Speer Gold Dot 230 Grain rounds, using Wilson 8 Round ETM +P magazines. I probably won't say the smith's name, because he's awesome, and I don't want a bunch of distraction about that. He's taking care of it.

Anyway, I'd noticed that on extracting live rounds (or doing dummy round flinch drills) I was occasionally getting a round that would lock up the gun with the rear of the case shifting into the frame with the nose of the round getting stuck up against the right side front of the ejection port. I didn't think much of it since I often spend some time breaking in a new custom 1911, as I consider myself a very minor collector of high end 1911s and I've been shooting a lot of rounds in my life through a lot of 1911s.

On friday I just decided to spend a little time duplicating the problem. So I loaded 4 or 5 rounds into a mag and simply ejected them using slingshot method a couple of times. At one point, I went to extract a round and I got one hell of a bang. My hand hurt like a bastard. I very carefully put the gun down and did the whole first aid thing first. After removing chunks of case metal from my hand and spending some time cleaning up, stopping bleeding etc, I began to sort it all out.

The round had kicked to the side again (rear left) and the ejector had penetrated the primer. All the way THROUGH the primer. The round detonated, and since the case was completely unsupported and out of the chamber, the case exploded and lots of bits went into my left hand. At first I was a little unsure of where the round went, but it left the case and literally wrapped it's nose around the edge of the ejection port and then bounced out to the right.

What I was stupid about was being lazy and not inspecting the rounds carefully after they got stuck. If I had, I'd probably have saved myself some pain. I went back and looked and out of the 5 I cycled through. One obviously went off. 2 had primer strikes from the ejector and 2 were complete clean.

So, er 1911 users, if you get some lockups that you think might be related to an overlong ejector (pointed up or diagonal in the slide often an indicator), don't try to keep duplicating. Get smart and look at the damn back of the rounds.

My little overlong extractor should be a small lesson. It could have been worse. Couple of cuts and I'm good. If I used my hand farther forward (like some people do in matches to catch live rounds) or just had bigger hands I might be in worse shape.

Here are some pics:

Gun after firing:
https://scontent.fbed1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22894009_10156134846048115_907333710546376071_n.jp g?oh=f77995743bfa4c9844fe6bfce54063ce&oe=5A6FC104

case and bullet. The bullet's nose us now "u shaped."
https://scontent.fbed1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22852984_10156134846318115_1354538918351744047_n.j pg?oh=8d83d89bcb91ddde20fe369b2adb7116&oe=5AA78147

Here you can see where the nose of the bullet left the case in an open chamber and basically wrapped itself around the edge of the slide from the copper marks:

https://scontent.fbed1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22815060_10156134846058115_6102457931382187493_n.j pg?oh=1688188ab1840093d4e624aade29fc8e&oe=5A74A1A9


My hand after cleaning up:

https://scontent.fbed1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22815163_10156134846313115_978431135258960503_n.jp g?oh=a41836a36ce9adc3d68c94fbab267e80&oe=5A67B92F

[GJM]

It used to be the fashion to cup the ejection port of a 1911 and catch the round in your hand, when unloading. This may even have been the practice at Gunsite when I first attended. I watched the final man on man shoot off bout at the Limited Nationals one year, and when clearing his pistol, one competitor had a round detonate in his hand when clearing. Ever since, I have sling shot the slide and kept my hands clear of the ejection port.

Can you confirm what method you were using, and how your hand got into harm’s way?

[JTQ]

Clint Smith "Administrative Handgun Load" at about the 3:00 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHSTvA6EObc

[JTQ]

I used to occasionally hand cycle live ammo through my gun to check some new mags. I don't anymore. Now I use snap caps. I've read enough stories like your's over the years to avoid the practice.

[newt]

GJM. I was using slingshot. Hand wrapped around the slide, thumb pointing back. The damage to my hand is at the "leading edge" of my hand. The meaty part of the edge of my hand typically is just a little over the chamber during slingshot. So shrapnel from the case penetrated up into that part of my hand. The outside tip of my pink appears to have just taken the partial force of explosive gas expanding blowing out some skin and creating bruising.

[GJM]

GJM. I was using slingshot. Hand wrapped around the slide, thumb pointing back. The damage to my hand is at the "leading edge" of my hand. The meaty part of the edge of my hand typically is just a little over the chamber during slingshot. So shrapnel from the case penetrated up into that part of my hand. The outside tip of my pink appears to have just taken the partial force of explosive gas expanding blowing out some skin and creating bruising.

Thanks for clarification. I think we may be describing the techniques differently. Picture one is what I refer to as sling shot, and picture two is what I call overhand. Were you using the technique depicted in picture two?

21235

21236

[Drang]

GJM. I was using slingshot. Hand wrapped around the slide, thumb pointing back.

That is not the "slingshot" technique. See discussion, w/photos, here (https://www.usacarry.com/racking-pistol-slide-technique-not-strength/). (Not an endorsement of the organization, just the first "hit" in a Google search.)

ETA: Since GJM was quicker to respond than I...

One of the selling points of the slingshot technique is avoidance of the ejection port, and the potential to have exactly this sort of incident, among others.

[newt]

Er yup. I was using overhand. I was taught at various schools that overhand was called
Slingshot/overhand and the other called "pinch and pull." But those were some time ago. Either that or I've just lost my mind and conflated them in my 43 yr old age which is possible.

[GJM]

Internet wars have been fought over the various techniques, but I like the method that I refer to as “slingshot” for a number of reasons, including being faster than the overhand, working better with gloves, and as you experienced, keeping your hand further away from the ejection port.

[newt]

Yeah, I know the wars have been fought over that. My particular injuries are quite superficial but lets not make this about that.

[1911Nut]

Regarding George's comment about what might have been the recommended procedure at Gunsite back when he first attended:

I'm not sure when George first attended Gunsite, but I took my API 250 course there in March 1981. My two instructors were Jeff Cooper and Clint Smith. The support hand cupped over the ejection port to catch the expended round of ammo from the chamber was MOST DEFINITELY the procedure taught at that class. The chamber check (press check) procedure that was taught:

Hold pistol in strong hand with thumb on top of thumb safety
Point pistol at approximately 90 degrees towards support side
Click thumb safety off with strong hand thumb
Hook support hand thumb INSIDE the front edge of the trigger guard
Hook support hand index fingertip over outside of recoil spring plug
Pinch (press) slide open with support hand index fingertip enough to reveal chamber to check for ammo in the chamber
Remove support hand from pistol and click thumb safety back on with strong hand thumb

That was the preferred and suggested method for performing a press check as taught by Colonel Cooper.

Times change.

[JTQ]

Regarding extended ejectors, I'm not sure I see the advantage. My old Colt has a GI ejector and works just fine. I've also seen comments where one would expect problems ejecting a live ball round from a gun with an extended ejector unless the ejection port has been opened up considerably.

Parts-wise, it seems as if standard GI ejectors are becoming harder to come by these days.

[DAB]

i helped put on a "intro to IDPA" session a few months ago, for new shooters. and this is one thing we covered at my suggestion. when done with a stage, at Unload and Show Clear, just let the live round hit the dirt. don't try to catch it, don't try to cup it, just let it go. it's 25 cents of ammo. and most times the round doesn't go too far, so it's easy to find and pick up when the pistol is holstered. also, if you are really talented, you can hit the SO with the round, so he knows the chamber is empty.

[M2CattleCo]

Extended ejectors are the work of the devil and reloaders.

OP's AD is one of the reasons I wouldn't have one on any of my 1911s back in the day.

[45dotACP]

Pretty sure I know who your smiff is but only because I frequently 1911 forums WAY too much for my own good.

I suspect he might be able to get a GI ejector to work just fine. Both hardware and software can be integrated into practice next time around. Believe me, I know fairly well that the loudest sound in the world is the Unexpected Loud Noise and I've stopped using live ammo to practice gun manipulations for the exact same reason.

Glad you're alright.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[41magfan]

All my 5" 1911's have had standard length ejectors and worked just fine, but Colt (and a lot of pistolsmiths) think that the shorter Commander length guns need an extended ejector to insure reliable cycling.

I can't help but note that 1911's aren't the only pistol designs out there that have "pointy protrusions" capable of causing similar issues.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/18/pict0861i.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/0ipict0861ij)

[Trooper224]

Extended ejectors on full size 1911s are bullshit.

Hand cycling live rounds through a pistol as a function check is bullshit.

This is what a convergence of bullshit gets you.

[HopetonBrown]

Er yup. I was using overhand. I was taught at various schools that overhand was called
Slingshot/overhand and the other called "pinch and pull." But those were some time ago. Either that or I've just lost my mind and conflated them in my 43 yr old age which is possible.I always assumed the slingshot grip is called slingshot because that's how you hold a slingshot. I don't think people overhand grip a slingshot.

[DAB]

Slingshot- pull it back and let it go.

[Mark D]

i helped put on a "intro to IDPA" session a few months ago, for new shooters. and this is one thing we covered at my suggestion. when done with a stage, at Unload and Show Clear, just let the live round hit the dirt. don't try to catch it, don't try to cup it, just let it go. it's 25 cents of ammo. and most times the round doesn't go too far, so it's easy to find and pick up when the pistol is holstered. also, if you are really talented, you can hit the SO with the round, so he knows the chamber is empty.

Some of the guys at my IDPA club still do unload the chamber into their support hand...but only the "cool guys"... I also see it at the local Steel Challenge matches. Always makes me cringe. I was trained out of it by various instructors dating back to at least 2010.

OP - glad your incident was relatively minor, without significant or tragic results.

[Balisong]

That's for sharing OP. Posts like this are invaluable for driving home safety aspects that some folks may be unaware of, and may save someone else down the road much more serious injury. Glad you weren't hurt too bad.

[Gio]

I’ve seen someone lose 1.5 fingers from this type of AD. You were lucky.

[john c]

Thank you for this thread. I use the technique in question, and am glad to learn from someone else’s experience. I’m changing my technique TODAY.


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[GJM]

Definitely glad the OP shared.

[JohnO]

I'm no expert on the 1911 but I sometimes think I know a thing or two.

In this case I can't help but think that the extractor failed to hang on to the live round. This failure to hold the cartridge resulted in the primer coming into contact with the ejector. Is it fair to put all the blame on the ejector?

FYI. I have seen the cupping the ejection port method still being taught by two instructors. When questioned about the safety of their method they both will tell you that if you perform the technique properly and allow space for the round to fall out into your hand there is nothing to worry about. I don't agree.

[DAB]

I'm no expert on the 1911 but I sometimes think I know a thing or two.

In this case I can't help but think that the extractor failed to hang on to the live round. This failure to hold the cartridge resulted in the primer coming into contact with the ejector. Is it fair to put all the blame on the ejector?

FYI. I have seen the cupping the ejection port method still being taught by two instructors. When questioned about the safety of their method they both will tell you that if you perform the technique properly and allow space for the round to fall out into your hand there is nothing to worry about. I don't agree.

that's a pretty important IF. if i sling it out and let it hit the dirt, there is no way it will hit the ejector. very little technique required, same move as tap and rack.

[newt]

JohnO,

The only thing I'll add to that is that I did the whole 10-8 Extractor Function Test a week before with no issues from the extractor. It passed that just fine

[1986s4]

I was never taught any of the cool guy techniques.. Years ago I read about the possibility of detonation by aggressive clearing of the chamber. I have been in the habit of showing clear by retracting the slide in slow motion and watching the live round fall out. On my CZ I was able to get the live round out so slowly it fell easily upon my extended trigger finger or down through the mag well.

[Crazy Dane]

I'm no expert on the 1911 but I sometimes think I know a thing or two.

In this case I can't help but think that the extractor failed to hang on to the live round. This failure to hold the cartridge resulted in the primer coming into contact with the ejector. Is it fair to put all the blame on the ejector?

FYI. I have seen the cupping the ejection port method still being taught by two instructors. When questioned about the safety of their method they both will tell you that if you perform the technique properly and allow space for the round to fall out into your hand there is nothing to worry about. I don't agree.

From my experience of buying into the thought of "a long ejector makes for a positive ejection" hype long ago, yes it is the ejectors fault. A too long of an ejector can cause a loaded round to come into contact with the slide disengaging the round from the extractor . Most long ejectors were fitted to the so that the empty case just clears the slide at the front of the ejection port as it pivots out. I had almost the same malfunction as the OP on one of my bowling pin guns. The only difference is in my case, the round did not go off and it locked up the gun completely. I had to cut the ejector off to get the round out. I went back to the GI style shortly after that incident.

[archangel]

Admittedly I'm not as much of an expert as some, but from what I've seen and my understanding of the 1911 action, the only way that the ejector can contact (and detonate) the primer is for one of the following to happen:
1. The ejector is bent inward
2. The wrong ejector is installed (ie a .38 super ejector on a .45), causing the tip of the ejector to be strike far inboard on the case head
3. The cartridge is not retained by the extractor at that moment

I think #3 is usually the culprit. Either the ejector is too long, the round is loaded too long, the ejection port isn't opened up enough, or a hand is blocking the port, so that when a live round is ejected, the tip of the bullet contacts the front of the ejection port. The bullet end can't move out, so instead, the continued force of the ejector causes the rim to be pulled free of the extractor. At least in the cases I've seen documented, this by itself is not what causes the round to detonate. At this point, we just have a failure to eject, with the round hung up in the ejection port.

It's the SECOND attempt to rack the slide that causes the round to go off. The round is off the extractor at this point. Letting the slide forward (as far as it will with a round stuck in the port) lets the case drop far enough into the action that the ejector lines up with the primer. Pulling the slide back, the round is being driven back by bullet nose stuck on the front of the ejection port. The primer is driven onto the ejector, and BANG!

While it's entirely possible that I'm missing some other mechanism, I'm hard pressed to see how the detonation can happen one first slide rack from a closed chamber. The ejector (unless it is bent or for a smaller caliber) can't line up with the primer while the round is being held by the extractor. The round can't move rearward unless it is being pulled by the extractor or pushed by the front of the ejection port, and front of the round can't move sideways into the front of the ejection port unless the ejector pushes on the case head while the extractor is still doing the pulling.

OP - Is your recollection of the AD that it happened on one single rack from a chambered round, or did it happen with trying to clear a jammed round?

[Redhat]

I'm no expert on the 1911 but I sometimes think I know a thing or two.

In this case I can't help but think that the extractor failed to hang on to the live round. This failure to hold the cartridge resulted in the primer coming into contact with the ejector. Is it fair to put all the blame on the ejector?

I'd just ask myself this...do you think it could do it with the original design (short) ejector?

FWIW, I once had a M60 MG try to get me by cooking off when I had the cover open. Luckily I had my safety glasses on, sleeves down and nomex gloves...all I got was a small powder burn on my wrist...could've been much worse. I learned from that as I'm sure you will your experience. Glad you'll be okay!

[newt]

archangel,

This was definitely a single rack. Slide came back only once and went boom.

[archangel]

Huh.

Can you tell where on the casehead the ejector hits when the round is still held by the extractor?

[theJanitor]

newt, please confirm if the inside-front of the ejection port has been clearanced to allow for a live round to eject. and that the gun is COMMANDER length, as most commander ejectors are extended

[newt]

Yes it is a Commader and yes the port is relieved for extra clearance.