Using a 1911/2011 with AIWB

[JV_]

some are not comfortable with the 1911 cocked and locked [sear breakage I think].I thought an engaged thumb safety would prevent the hammer from (fully) falling if the sear hooks broke off?

[Tamara]

I thought an engaged thumb safety would prevent the hammer from (fully) falling if the sear hooks broke off?
Thumb safety only blocks the sear from moving. If your sear nose were to suffer a sudden and gratuitous spontaneous existence failure, the hammer hooks would have nothing to catch them, and you've got a machinegun in your trousers, at least until friction from the holster or a failure-to-eject stops it with a malf.

While this is theoretically possible and I am sure it's happened somewhere, I am unaware of any incidents off the top of my head.

[JV_]

Thumb safety only blocks the sear from moving.

Thanks, it wasn't completely clear from this picture, it looked like it could possibly stop a falling hammer.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GiD1UGNqPyk/TxWiALloUPI/AAAAAAAABMg/72uGzkh6_eI/s300/safety_on.jpg

[Tamara]

Thanks, it wasn't completely clear from this picture, it looked like it could possibly stop a falling hammer.
It looks like it could, doesn't it? Which has got me questioning everything I've ever been told. I even just now went and pulled my Kuhnhausen off the shelf, but he only talks about its engagement with the sear...

I've got half a mind to grind the nose off an old sear and stick it in my Sistema just to see what happens. :confused:

[nar472]

The safety does block the hammer but when (if) the sear goes south on you the hammer knocks the safety off then proceeds to go full auto in your holster.

[Tamara]

The safety does block the hammer but when (if) the sear goes south on you the hammer knocks the safety off then proceeds to go full auto in your holster.

Okay, that makes sense. I've been totally tortured here for the last thirty minutes or so.

(I felt like I'd just told somebody that of course earth was round, and realized that I'd never, you know, actually checked it myself. :o )

[TCinVA]

I'm bad at thinking in 3 dimensions looking at drawings...but I was always told that the thumb safety locks the sear and hammer into place. Now the people who told me that may not have been accurate. I'm sure Tam's got better books on that topic than I do.

As for AIWB carry, I wouldn't have any trepidation about carrying the 1911 that way. With the proper technique you would re-engage the thumb safety and would remove pressure from the grip safety so that both of them are working to keep you from getting shot. I'm by no means the world's foremost 1911 expert, but I've never heard of a 1911 that went completely rogue while in the holster. Ever. The only unintentional mag dumps I'm aware of with a 1911 have been on specimens with an exceptionally light trigger (less than 2 pounds...usually much less) that went BATFE unapproved in the middle of a course of fire. (Meaning while the trigger was being pulled) This is one reason why those who know 1911's encourage a minimum of a 4 pound trigger because anything beyond that and you're on the ragged edge of what the parts are capable of sustaining. As far as risks go, I'd place the risk of an unmolested 1911 going full auto in my pants into the almost theoretical category of things to worry about. It would be right up there with worrying about whether or not I was too good looking, or whether my hair is a little too awesome, etc.

As for what is "best" for AIWB, unless you've managed to talk someone into designing a Gadget for you, the next best thing is a pistol with a hammer. If the DA/SA P30 isn't working well for you, look at offerings from Sig. In my experience their DA/SA triggers tend to be considerably better than the DA/SA triggers on the H&K's I've tried. Alternately, you could have someone like Bruce Gray work on your P30 trigger. His work has an excellent reputation. I share your frustration on the limited aftermarket support for the P30, but after having lived with it for over a year and some thousands of rounds the minor annoyances of the thing don't really trouble me anymore. Sure, I'd like a laser and I'd like a good set of Warren 3 dot sights for it, but neither is a deal breaker for me considering my primary use of the pistol. (If I were making lots of hostage shots in low light the laser thing would be a lot more important) As an appliance for launching a whole bunch of 9mm bullets downrange with superb accuracy and excellent handling characteristics, it's impossible for me to think of anything else that matches it.

The short answer is that there's no easy answer here. If you want better aftermarket support and a hammer you're pretty much forced to look at a Sig or discontinued S&W 3rd generation pistols. If you just want a better trigger you can have a trigger job or you can buy an LEM equipped P30 and change the springs to your liking.

[nar472]

Okay, that makes sense. I've been totally tortured here for the last thirty minutes or so.

(I felt like I'd just told somebody that of course earth was round, and realized that I'd never, you know, actually checked it myself. :o )

I cheated I had never checked myself just took it for granted so I just grabbed one off my display here and took it apart to find out. At least on this one it took very little pressure on the hammer to knock the safety off. Maybe something can be done to prevent it but looking at the rounded profile it makes sense that it would just push the safety off.

I also would be a little afraid of useing a 1911 in AIWB because of this.

[TheRoland]

Okay, that makes sense. I've been totally tortured here for the last thirty minutes or so.

(I felt like I'd just told somebody that of course earth was round, and realized that I'd never, you know, actually checked it myself. :o )

I case there's any doubt, I can confirm this is what happens. Nar472 nailed it. The hammer easily disengages the safety when it falls.

[bofe954]

I case there's any doubt, I can confirm this is what happens. Nar472 nailed it. The hammer easily disengages the safety when it falls.

You would it would be slowed enough to not go bang. Especially if it was holstered in something with a sweat shield made to hold the safety on safe like the Alessi stuff in the post above.

[Tamara]

You would it would be slowed enough to not go bang. Especially if it was holstered in something with a sweat shield made to hold the safety on safe like the Alessi stuff in the post above.

Depending on the construction of the holster, one of three things could happen:


If there were nothing blocking the thumb safety, we're back to the loud noise down the trousers situation.
If there were something like a leather sweatguard that just applied drag to the thumb safety, the hammer might fall with insufficient force to bust a cap.
If the thumb safety was retained in place by something like a tightly molded kydex sweatguard, then the toter is in for the surprise of his life when he unholsters at bedtime. :eek:


Of course, this is all predicated on an extremely unlikely event in the first place. I'm more worried about suffering the fate of Ann Hodges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Hodges) than of the sear nose spontaneously fracturing in a direction perpendicular to the force being applied to it.

[1986s4]

Am I correct in thinking that a series 80 FP safety would/should arrest the FP if the sear nose should suffer a catastrophic failure? Since the trigger would not be in the full rearward position?

[Tamara]

Am I correct in thinking that a series 80 FP safety would/should arrest the FP if the sear nose should suffer a catastrophic failure? Since the trigger would not be in the full rearward position?

Yes.

Still, though, I think it's fretting about nothing, for the most part. I've had guns with relief-cut sear noses and .020" engagement on the hammer hooks that have stayed cocked for years and years at a time, that are uncocked only when they're actually in the process of igniting a primer or being transported unloaded in a locked case.

A lot of the lore surrounding 1911 lockwork comes from gunsmiths whittling knife edges on butter-soft wartime GI sears to turn them into bullseye guns, back before you could buy good EDM-cut tool steel lockwork. That's where the whole "hold the trigger back when you drop the slide so you don't mess up the trigger job" thing comes from.

[Wes Peart]

Wouldn't the half cock notch prevent that?

[bofe954]

I think it would depend on how much of the sear was left...

[TCinVA]

One of the nice folks from Heirloom Precision has apparently noticed this thread and is going to give a bit of technical clarification on the question in the relatively near future. I'm looking forward to it.

[Tamara]

One of the nice folks from Heirloom Precision has apparently noticed this thread and is going to give a bit of technical clarification on the question in the relatively near future. I'm looking forward to it.
Me, too, especially as I've been too lazy to call Bob or Shannon and pester them.

[nar472]

Definatly looking forward to this, it is awesome that people "that really know the 1911" are willing to take time out of their day to explain this to us.:cool:

[TheRoland]

Wouldn't the half cock notch prevent that?

It depends on how much of the sear shears off, in our very hypothetical scenario. If there's no sear point, there's nothing to catch at half-cock.

This is an interesting discussion, but my concerns carrying a 1911 are more the lack of drop-safety than a single (but incredibly unlikely) point of failure in the ignition parts.

[Jason Burton]

Sorry I’m late to this party...

Please note: anything here assumes a properly made and functioning gun built from quality components. All others need not apply and even with that as a base line weird stuff can, will, and has happened.

Would a broken sear cause the gun to discharge while holstered or stationary?
I’ve never seen nor heard of a sear spontaneously breaking while the pistol was at full-cock. Much less one breaking while at full-cock and causing the gun to discharge. That’s not to say it can’t happen, just that in all my experience it’s not something I’ve seen.

To the best of my recollection, all of the sears that I have personally seen break have done so at the nose due to some sort of “shock“. In these cases the sears broke due to improper installation, the hammer repeatedly falling or being forced to half-cock, or due to a fluke parts breakage. In one case I recall a sear breaking while I was actually firing the gun and the gun continued to function. In all of the instances that I remember none of the broken sears caused the hammer to fall to half-cock nor fall off or miss the full-cock notch at all. As such, the gun still worked as designed with the main indicator of something wrong being a very heavy and/or gritty trigger pull. The sear noses were broken but there was still more than enough of the part intact to keep the hammer from falling all the way to the firing pin.

In at least theory, the design of the parts necessitates that the sear would almost have to break in half at the pin in order for the hammer to fall and not be stopped on the half-cock notch.

It’s also noteworthy to mention that a broken sear is comparatively a pretty rare thing. I have seen far more broken slide stops, firing pin stops, sights, mag-catches, and thumb safeties.

Does the thumb safety block the hammer and can it keep the hammer from falling to the firing pin?
The thumb safety does indeed impede the movement of the hammer when the safety is in the “on” position. As such, in theory the hammer’s forward movement could be stopped/blocked should an unlikely catastrophic sear failure occur.

However, there are still other variables at play such as the strength of the plunger tube detent and how firmly it holds the safety in the “on“ position. A quick check of half-dozen 1911s I own showed that none of them had thumb safeties that would prevent the hammer from falling to the firing pin when the sear had been removed. That said, in all instances the hammer was significantly slowed and with two of the guns the hammer paused on the thumb safety before pushing it out of the way.

Would the guns have discharged? Maybe not, but some time in the near future I’ll test one of them with a primed case to know for sure.

Overall none of these things would be a concern of mine. If it were I would avoid carrying the 1911 altogether regardless of the method of carry. I still think the gun is safe, redundantly so, but then again I could be a bit biased.

[Tamara]

Thank you for that! I see nothing there to disagree with at all.

[SecondsCount]

Thanks Jason for the thorough post.

I remembered reading a story here (http://web.archive.org/web/20100325050006/http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm) about a hammer bending before the sear nose broke on a Colt that I found informative-


"About ten years ago, I was working as an armed-plain clothed-security officer. During a struggle with an arrested subject the Combat Commander I was carrying cocked and locked, holstered in a Bianchi "Pancake" on my strong side hip, struck the center door jam of a set of double doors. The center door jam was knocked loose, and two belt loops were torn off of my jeans. The hammer was bent inward and the safety would not move. A gunsmith had to press out the safety, hammer pin, and sear pin. The edge of the sear had cracked off, and a piece of one hammer hook also cracked off. The gun did not discharge upon that impact. I have carried several Colt's, including that repaired Commander for most of my adult life, and have never once worried about the weapon (myself or someone else is a different story, but not the gun)."

[nar472]

Thanks Jason, it will be interesting to see what you find when you try live fire (primered case) but it would seem that it its obvious what the outcome will be. I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to us.

[Corvus]

The safety does block the hammer but when (if) the sear goes south on you the hammer knocks the safety off then proceeds to go full auto in your holster.

How ?? Without the sear the hammer would not cock and just ride the slide down after one shot if it fired at all. What am I missing ?

[nar472]

I was assuming based on the statements of other people in the past about the 1911 going full auto when the sear hooks failed. What I was really trying to answer was wether or not it could fire based in the fact that the thumb safety is blocking the hammer, and based on the one model that I tested the hammer pushed the thumb safety off very easily thus to me at least at the time it seemed that it could fire. After Jason's post I begin to have my doubts that it could go full auto or even fire at all.
Although several guys over at 1911 forum have talked about 1911's going full auto, granted the ones they are taking about where all in there opinions (they are far smarter when it comes to 1911's then I will ever be) because of bad gunsmithing and or cheap parts that failed. They are saying what happened in one case that the hooks rounded off but had enough life to hold the hammer back until the slide slammed back into battery knocking the hammer loose. So the easy answer to me at least is don't skimp on parts and have a"real" gunsmith that knows what he is doing install them.

Anyway here is a link to one of the threads over there if you want to read it. I should add that there are several big name 1911 smiths over there Chuck Rogers, and Hilton Yam to name a few.








http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=285645&page=2