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Lon
10-25-2017, 04:52 PM
Spent a couple hours today teaching the shotgun to some police cadets. Of the 26 cadets only a handful had any idea how to run a shotgun. All our shotguns are 870s. Many were skeptical about the utility of the shotgun. Most were more interested about rifles, which we don’t cover in the academy. Once we got out and I did a pattern test to show them what a good shotgun rd can do they got a bit more interested. But some were just downright scared of the scattergun.

I patterned 2 different 00 loads out of a 14” cylinder bore 870. The Flight control 8 pellet rd was, as usual, very impressive. All the way out to 25 yards the pellets stayed within the preferred scoring area of an OPOTC target. What surprised me was the pattern on the Fiocchi Exacta 00 load. All the pellets stayed on the target (although not in the preferred area) out to 20 yards. 25 yards saw a few flyers.

A few things were reinforced. Blackhawk Knoxx collapsing stocks suck. Most shotgun stocks are too long. MP stocks are pretty nice. And Vang Comp’d shotguns kick ass.

SamueL
10-25-2017, 08:49 PM
Most were more interested about rifles

Isn't that the truth!

I have guys who won't touch a shotgun like it's the plague. I even offered them ammo to practice.

RevolverRob
10-26-2017, 04:07 PM
These guys aren't playing the right video games. Everyone knows that the shotgun is where it's at in most first-person shooters.
___

If someone gave me free ammo, I'd shoot it. In any caliber/platform. I love free ammo.

Unobtanium
10-26-2017, 04:36 PM
These guys aren't playing the right video games. Everyone knows that the shotgun is where it's at in most first-person shooters.
___

If someone gave me free ammo, I'd shoot it. In any caliber/platform. I love free ammo.

I hate to bring it up, but yeah. Battlefield 1 and 4, it's what I roll with unless it's a "distance" map. A short brapppp from an SMG vs. 1 round from the SG always loses it seems. Infuriating to fill a guy in with 3-5 rounds and he gets ONE at you and you're done. So eventually you join 'em with the damn thing, lol

Joe in PNG
10-26-2017, 05:09 PM
Back in the days of my yooth, I went on my first hunting trip packing a vintage SMLE #4 MkI*. I also missed my first deer with the said rifle.
My uncle suggested I use his very nice Browning Auto 5, a gun I was frightened of, because of the massive kick such a gun would have.
Yeah, like a .303 with steel butt plate didn't recoil like a mule kick...

Anyway, took a shot with the Browning, and liked it. Never did see another deer that trip.

BN
10-26-2017, 08:04 PM
When running officers through shotgun qualification, I always use my oldest most shot up target sticks for the shotgun targets. ;)

Hambo
10-27-2017, 05:35 AM
Spent a couple hours today teaching the shotgun to some police cadets. Of the 26 cadets only a handful had any idea how to run a shotgun. All our shotguns are 870s. Many were skeptical about the utility of the shotgun. Most were more interested about rifles, which we don’t cover in the academy. Once we got out and I did a pattern test to show them what a good shotgun rd can do they got a bit more interested. But some were just downright scared of the scattergun.


In my childhood I learned from Reed and Malloy that when you were going to get serious you grabbed the Ithaca 37. I also hunted with all manner of shotguns from an early age. Different generation with different influences and experiences (or lack of experiences).

This video was recently on SSD and about halfway through he talks about how it used to be with shotguns in LE. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=LLSeNid5fGQ

RevolverRob
10-27-2017, 03:32 PM
In my childhood I learned from Reed and Malloy that when you were going to get serious you grabbed the Ithaca 37. I also hunted with all manner of shotguns from an early age. Different generation with different influences and experiences (or lack of experiences).

I learned the same. Although I was watching Reed and Malloy on Nick-At-Nite...;)

On a more serious note, I've seen a lot of shotgun-shy folks. I guess it comes from the Hollywood portrayal of shotguns as kicking like mules. Since I grew up hunting with shotguns, I've never been real recoil shy. But my dad did start me on a .410, before I moved to a 16 and then a 12 as I got bigger. And I admit some guns are far worse than others. Like no one will EVER convince me to shoot a damn Beretta 1201FP ever again. A buddy gave me one loaded with standard buckshot to try at the range one time. Two shots from that and I was D-O-N-E. - This is also why I'm a little shy around inertia operated guns in general, but at least the Benellis with comfortech stocks are shootable. The 1201FP weighs about 6 pounds loaded - It's a nasty kicker.

deputyG23
10-27-2017, 04:27 PM
When running officers through shotgun qualification, I always use my oldest most shot up target sticks for the shotgun targets. ;)

And target backers that are nearly unserviceable.

BN
10-27-2017, 04:31 PM
And target backers that are nearly unserviceable.

Sound like you have been there. ;)

Lon
10-27-2017, 07:10 PM
Yep. Always do shotgun quake near the end of Firearms.

FAS1
10-28-2017, 10:38 AM
Not Cadets by any means, but I had the opportunity to take some teens to the shooting range a couple years back that were not familiar with guns in general for the most part. They were all from Mexico and a couple had held a revolver before and that's all. After going over all the basics with them they got to shoot several different semi auto handguns and revolvers along with my 1201FP shotgun. They really liked shooting the shotgun!

http://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10891694_599703093496267_3250104551209745240_n.jpg ?oh=7f597c9f4845004f3d11dd459965e0ae&oe=5A7320DC

deputyG23
10-28-2017, 02:32 PM
Sound like you have been there. ;)

Yep. At least one Basic Jailor/Deputy Sheriff academy a year since the early ‘90s.

gtae07
10-29-2017, 06:34 AM
Most were more interested about rifles, which we don’t cover in the academy. Once we got out and I did a pattern test to show them what a good shotgun rd can do they got a bit more interested. But some were just downright scared of the scattergun.


On a more serious note, I've seen a lot of shotgun-shy folks. I guess it comes from the Hollywood portrayal of shotguns as kicking like mules.

Honestly the reason I've avoided shotguns for so long is that (to me) they just look like a right pain in the rear to operate. I finally had to bite the, er... shell, and get one for 3-gun, and my suspicions have been confirmed. I can feel the hairs turning gray while I'm reloading, which I also have to do far more often than with the rifle or pistol. Add to it that the action works a little differently than my rifle (or any other gun I've dealt with, for that matter) and I just don't like it. I used my pistol on the steel targets whenever I could, even if it meant firing more shots, because I could reload the pistol very quickly.

I just keep asking myself "why aren't box-magazine-fed shotguns more popular?"

RevolverRob
10-29-2017, 11:29 AM
Honestly the reason I've avoided shotguns for so long is that (to me) they just look like a right pain in the rear to operate. I finally had to bite the, er... shell, and get one for 3-gun, and my suspicions have been confirmed. I can feel the hairs turning gray while I'm reloading, which I also have to do far more often than with the rifle or pistol. Add to it that the action works a little differently than my rifle (or any other gun I've dealt with, for that matter) and I just don't like it. I used my pistol on the steel targets whenever I could, even if it meant firing more shots, because I could reload the pistol very quickly.

Do you quad load or load-two? I learned load-two early on and use it for most things these days. The only downside to most of the multiple shell load techniques is that they require dismounting the gun from the shoulder which is a combat shooting no-no, unless you are behind cover. Which is one place where 3-gun exposes itself as a game...


I just keep asking myself "why aren't box-magazine-fed shotguns more popular?"

Well...because cost. Because hunting guns are limited to 3-shot capacities during hunting season. Because shotgun shells get squished when stored in box magazines for even moderate time periods. And because single-stack magazines aren't that reliable overall...

Sherman A. House DDS
10-29-2017, 12:55 PM
When I was a cadet (prior to rifles aside from lever actions being a thing) I took the shotgun training very seriously, since if the SHTF, the shotgun was accessible to me. We had 11-87’s and 870’s, and I loved them. Still do.

Although I’m sure it’s not PC to tell the cadets that if their FTO catches a round in the heat of battle, that they’re supposed to fight back, by any means necessary. I mean, I hope they do, but I’m guessing it’s an, “unwritten,” rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

gtae07
10-29-2017, 03:08 PM
Do you quad load or load-two? I learned load-two early on and use it for most things these days. The only downside to most of the multiple shell load techniques is that they require dismounting the gun from the shoulder which is a combat shooting no-no, unless you are behind cover. Which is one place where 3-gun exposes itself as a game...
Uhh... well, I was single-loading. From the cargo pocket on my shorts.

I should add that last week, in addition to being my first 3-gun match (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28207-First-3-gun-match-debrief-lessons-learned-observations), was the first time I'd handled a shotgun other than one round of sporting clays many years ago.

At least for next time I've purchased an extension tube and some shell holders (stock and receiver mounted). I might look at double-loads later on.



Well...because cost. Because hunting guns are limited to 3-shot capacities during hunting season. Because shotgun shells get squished when stored in box magazines for even moderate time periods. And because single-stack magazines aren't that reliable overall...
Darn.

If I develop any skill at hitting flying clays I'm real tempted to get a Saiga or one of those Turkish AR-looking shotguns just to see what looks I get...

RevolverRob
10-29-2017, 03:32 PM
Uhh... well, I was single-loading. From the cargo pocket on my shorts.

I should add that last week, in addition to being my first 3-gun match (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28207-First-3-gun-match-debrief-lessons-learned-observations), was the first time I'd handled a shotgun other than one round of sporting clays many years ago.

At least for next time I've purchased an extension tube and some shell holders (stock and receiver mounted). I might look at double-loads later on.

Like all things in life, shotguns take practice. And arguably to run them well, they take more practice than a rifle or handgun. And 3-gun takes a ton of dry practice to get the motions down, period. The shotgun is for most shooters the place where they can improve the most.

I recommend looking at load-two or quad-load and pick it up soon'ish if you start to take 3-gun seriously. Load two, is an especially useful technique that applies to virtually all tube-fed guns and is pretty easy to implement overall. But again requires dismounting the gun from the shoulder. The load-two approach shown below is my preferred one, where you roll the gun up onto the shoulder and load two with the strong hand. I prefer this, because I do a lot of strong hand reloading with a revolver anyways, so it feels more "natural" as it were.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkEwIWYSMHg