1911 quality and build discussion

[JDM]

I feel you.

I've a long standing commander fetish. I don't think a better looking gun exists. I've had a couple Colts, and a S&W, but I can never seem to find the one for me. I buy them, shoot them a little, and sell them.

Rats.

[JAD]

I've a long standing commander fetish. I don't think a better looking gun exists. I've had a couple Colts, and a S&W, but I can never seem to find the one for me. I buy them, shoot them a little, and sell them.
I loves the one I'm carrying. XSE, too bad, in .38 Super, too cool. Wilson did a stipple and beavertail and armor-tuffed it for me. All kinds of fun.

[BLR]

A commander definitely needs a first rate dehorning and front strap treatment.

[Tamara]

Whatcha want for that DE?

I like to say that I've never regretted selling a gun, but if I did, that would be the one. :o

I shaved down from a dozen or so 1911s to three when I moved to Indy back in early '08. My .38 Super, 10mm, SA Lightweight, and Colt Gunsite CCO were the first to go, leaving me with all 5" steel guns in .45ACP.

When I put the DE out on a table at the gun show, instead of a price tag, I just wrote "If You Have To Ask..." on an index card. After an hour of telling people "...then you can't afford it," or "...then you don't know what it is," a friend of mine, a lawyer who is a gun school junkie and posts as "buzzknox" at TFL and THR strolled up. "Ah," I purred, "My target market!"

I wish I still had it; it shot like a house afire. At least it went to a good home...

[Odin Bravo One]

What a tease...............

I too trimmed down the 1911's from over a dozen down to 3.......and I regret selling every one of them. But I didn't have a DE, and would very much like to have one. I am in discussion with a builder to do a custom carry CDE for me for my (maybe) upcoming retirement. Hopefully we can hash out the details in Vegas and get work started.

As for the "If you have to ask.........."..................I have even trained the GF to understand the concept.

I still like the 1911 for a lot of things.

[JAD]

Sean, that sounds like an ideal Heirloom project.... But you wouldn't be able retire anymore.

[WDW]

I'm not hating. I love a quality forged, hand fitted 1911. I'm just saying that a quality, reliable 1911 is an extreme minority in the pistol world and they require most of their major components to be hand fitted, whereas a Glock is designed to have complete interchangeability possible at the user level . Therefore, they are not a viable option for many. I know first hand how easy it is to get burned on an inferior 1911(a Kimber Custom II TLE) and that is why I am so leary. I don't mean to sound cynical at all. It is just that following PT and PF over these last few years, I have gained a new appreciation for what reliable means and in my experience, it can be somewhat of an undertaking to find a truly reliable 1911. Also, one thing that really frustrates me is the vast inconsistency with 1911 mags. The gun can be a a masterpiece, expertly fitted, and in time as a rolex, and then you stick a dang mag in it and the gun becomes fubar. I am a huge fan of the Sig P220 though. I am around 4,000rds with my 220 SAS without any malfunctions, stoppages, or breakages. Not alot I know, but I lack the $$$$ and am limited to around 10,000rds per year.

[SecondsCount]

I'm not hating. I love a quality forged, hand fitted 1911. I'm just saying that a quality, reliable 1911 is an extreme minority in the pistol world and they require most of their major components to be hand fitted, whereas a Glock is designed to have complete interchangeability possible at the user level . Therefore, they are not a viable option for many. I know first hand how easy it is to get burned on an inferior 1911(a Kimber Custom II TLE) and that is why I am so leary. I don't mean to sound cynical at all. It is just that following PT and PF over these last few years, I have gained a new appreciation for what reliable means and in my experience, it can be somewhat of an undertaking to find a truly reliable 1911. Also, one thing that really frustrates me is the vast inconsistency with 1911 mags. The gun can be a a masterpiece, expertly fitted, and in time as a rolex, and then you stick a dang mag in it and the gun becomes fubar. I am a huge fan of the Sig P220 though. I am around 4,000rds with my 220 SAS without any malfunctions, stoppages, or breakages. Not alot I know, but I lack the $$$$ and am limited to around 10,000rds per year.

Your leariness is well founded but there are many who have been burned by a bum Kimber.

[Tamara]

Also, one thing that really frustrates me is the vast inconsistency with 1911 mags. The gun can be a a masterpiece, expertly fitted, and in time as a rolex, and then you stick a dang mag in it and the gun becomes fubar.
One thing I've noticed in years on the internets is, should one put a crap mag in a 1911 and the gun pukes, it's because the gun's an antiquated, finicky piece of junk, but if one puts a sheet-metal USA-brand magazine or one of those Korean gun show knock-offs in a Glock, then the gun malfs because you were using bad magazines in your superbly reliable, modern pistol. ;)

I use Wilsons in my 1911s because I know they work in my 1911s. I have not felt the need to experiment with other magazines because I see no need to fix that which is not broken.

Regarding your Kimber experience, I wish I could say I found it surprising (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/02/but-it-says-custom-right-on-gun.html). It is my firm conviction that Kimber sells a nice pistol starter kit, as long as one buys it with the understanding that they will be replacing the guts.

[BLR]

On another forum, there was a fellow that insisted his Wilson BWC was jamming on the last round in the magazine. He swore up and down it was the gun, not the ammunition. I got to shoot the gun and ran 300 trouble free 200gLSWCs through it w/o so much as a hiccup. Go to the Colt factory and you will see piles of Defenders that "dont run." And then you will see a nice (TINY) little old lady who test fires them, normally w/o any FTF/FTEs. That was an eye opener for me.

I've learned to skeptically look at a number of "problematic" 1911s and people who report them. Without fail, poor grip, poor magazines, poor ammunition, and "match" chambers are involved. They dont need hand fitted parts. I have "cheap" kimbers and Springers that run w/o issue. My S70 Colts run w/o issue.

Yes, 1911s cost more. One big reason is that the frame must be whittled out of a big chunk of steel, where Glock/Smith/HK/etc just inject one out of nylon. Keep that in mind.

[JV_]

Yes, 1911s cost more. One big reason is that the frame must be whittled out of a big chunk of steel, where Glock/Smith/HK/etc just inject one out of nylon. Keep that in mind.

Beretta, Sig, and other manufacturers make frames out of big chunks of aluminum and can still make them reasonably priced. I'm also not sure it's reasonable to compare guns with street prices, it doesn't take in to account profit margins. I bet there's a lot more profit made on a Glock than some of the other guns.

1911s require far more hand fitting too.

[BLR]

Beretta, Sig, and other manufacturers make frames out of big chunks of aluminum and can still make them reasonably priced. I'm also not sure it's reasonable to compare guns with street prices, it doesn't take in to account profit margins. I bet there's a lot more profit made on a Glock than some of the other guns.

1911s require far more hand fitting too.

Machining aluminum is much easier than even mild steel. Feeds and speeds shoot way up with aluminum, and fixturing is made much simpler because rigidity is less important.

Of course, you second statement is quite true.

Of course, such a discussion is academic anyway. If you are after bargain basement 1911s, you're predestined for disappointment IMO.

[jmjames]

Yes, 1911s cost more. One big reason is that the frame must be whittled out of a big chunk of steel, where Glock/Smith/HK/etc just inject one out of nylon. Keep that in mind.

You can get a CZ75 for the price of a low end 1911, and they seem to have far fewer reliability complaints, and they too are whittled out of a big chunk of steel. Ditto for a Browning Hi Power which is only a little more expensive than a low end 1911. And both are substantially similar to the 1911 design. Yes, the process of making a 1911 is more expensive than making a polymer pistol, but does any one realize that a top end 1911 costs as much as a well built Chevy or Ford small block (a long block at that) aimed at the auto enthusiast, which is also whittled out of steel and hand fitted?

J.Ja

[BLR]

I can't stand the "poor grip" excuse. If the weapon doesn't fire reliably except with good,strong two handed grip, what are you going to do with single handed fire? Continue to blame the shooter?

It's not really an excuse. It's physics. And it is a feature of all recoil operated firearms, not just pistols. Also, the second hand in a two hand grip does more for stability than "tightness" of the grip.

jmjames - you are correct to a point. You will find, however, when CZ production is attempted in the US, price goes up a bit. I'm not sure comparing eastern bloc countries to US manufacturing is quite right. And there are many, many, many more small block chevys being built than 1911s. Volume of production plays a role too. But this is academic too. So what if it is more expensive?

Yes, 1911s are sometimes expensive. And if you dont change the oil in your car, than a Glock might be a better choice for you. But so what?