To "safety" or not?

[Mr Pink]

I always teach students to "safety" during movement. Something that was taught to me early in Special Forces. As I started getting more into competition, my desire to engage the safety became less desirable so that I could become faster. Later, I discovered that it didn't add more time. Here's an example:

https://youtu.be/3hT5Wmx7Mss?t=2m22s

Any thoughts or feedback on engaging the safety?

[breakingtime91]

I was taught when i got to my Unit that unless you were actively firing, your safety was on. Movement, safety on. Just shot a guy and holding on him to determine if down for good, safety on. Only when the decision has been made to shoot did I swipe the safety off, which is pretty quick to do with AR pattern rifles.

What does Pac say? Always an enabler, never a disabler.

[Odin Bravo One]

I’ve never seen or heard of a good reason not to have it engaged when not actively shooting.

[holmes168]

We practiced going from safe to semi back to safe so many times that ten years later, it's still so ingrained in my movement I can't imagine not staying on except when firing. I'm not sure my muscle memory would allow me to break the habit.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

I was taught when i got to my Unit that unless you were actively firing, your safety was on. Movement, safety on. Just shot a guy and holding on him to determine if down for good, safety on. Only when the decision has been made to shoot did I swipe the safety off, which is pretty quick to do with AR pattern rifles.

What does Pac say? Always an enabler, never a disabler.

The same was ingrained into me in the mid 90’s by a man named Smith, then reinforced by my neighbor Paul starting late 2004.

[txdpd]

We had an officer a shoot a dog with a rifle at a dope house when a thug inside decided to release the hounds. He never put the rifle on safe, about 45 minutes later the officers slung rifle's trigger and duty belt interfaced, and fired a round into the ground. There was a lack of training time and enforcement of safe practice issues that contributed to that.

If it's not a subconscious habit to always the put the rifle on safe, at some point it's not going to happen when it really needs to happen in a stressful situation. Always putting the rifle on safe helps prevent those situations where we snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[ranger]

This is notable at the local PCC match. When I run the course with a 9mm AR or a MPX it is obvious that I am on safe or off safe as I run the course. The shooters without MIL experience (and less rifle/carbine experience) tend to take the safety off once and then leave it off until course of fire ends and they go through the clear process.

[Sal Picante]

This is notable at the local PCC match. When I run the course with a 9mm AR or a MPX it is obvious that I am on safe or off safe as I run the course. The shooters without MIL experience (and less rifle/carbine experience) tend to take the safety off once and then leave it off until course of fire ends and they go through the clear process.

There is no penalty for leaving it off...

Most people don't practice enough to re-safe while moving, etc.

[Mike C]

There is no penalty for leaving it off...

Most people don't practice enough to re-safe while moving, etc.

All the more reason they should. Seen many a booger hook end up in the trigger well when people fall ass over tea kettle.

[breakingtime91]

There is no penalty for leaving it off...

Most people don't practice enough to re-safe while moving, etc.

Do you think there should be? I tend to gravitate towards yes.

[Robinson]

I don't have the military experience that you guys have, but when I owned an AR I treated the safety the same as on a 1911. Always on except when firing.

[Mike C]

Do you think there should be? I tend to gravitate towards yes.

Not LES, but I would go with a yes. I would liken it to dropping a gun. DQ in my book.

[Jeep]

I leave it to others on what works in competition but in the real world put the safety on when you are moving. This is going to be even more important if you don't have a military 8 pound (or whatever) trigger.

[Mr Pink]

I see that well trained shooters seem to think alike ;) This is contrary to some of the "interesting' comments on the youtube channel. Any helpful comments on there would greatly be appreciated!

[Clobbersaurus]

In courses I always safety (and decock my TDA guns) when moving or not firing.

In competition I only decock my Beretta when I’m told to unload and show clear.

[ImNobody]

We had an officer a shoot a dog with a rifle at a dope house when a thug inside decided to release the hounds. He never put the rifle on safe, about 45 minutes later the officers slung rifle's trigger and duty belt interfaced, and fired a round into the ground. There was a lack of training time and enforcement of safe practice issues that contributed to that.

If it's not a subconscious habit to always the put the rifle on safe, at some point it's not going to happen when it really needs to happen in a stressful situation. Always putting the rifle on safe helps prevent those situations where we snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

It's situations like this that make it so important to use the safety on a rifle. We aren't talking about a handgun that is safely stored in a holster with the trigger covered. Rifles are going to have their triggers exposed and will inevitably be tossed or slung around with little regard to the trigger.

This is also why I absolutely despise the scene in Blackhawk down when Hoot says "this is my safety" and holds up his finger. Um, no. Your trigger is exposed and your gun flopping about your chest. That isn't safe in anyone's world...... Just my opinion obviously.... I'm sure many will disagree as that quote is often repeated by people who think they don't need to use a safety.

[BJXDS]

I always teach students to "safety" during movement. Something that was taught to me early in Special Forces. As I started getting more into competition, my desire to engage the safety became less desirable so that I could become faster. Later, I discovered that it didn't add more time. Here's an example:

https://youtu.be/3hT5Wmx7Mss?t=2m22s

Any thoughts or feedback on engaging the safety?
I am not SF BUT I like what you teach. The Safety is the first thing people should learn to operate.


Do you think there should be? I tend to gravitate towards yes.
YES

[gtae07]

Timely thread :) I have my first 3 gun competition tomorrow and using the safety on the rifle whenever I'm not on target is something I've been trying to work on. It's taking some mental effort; I don't really ever shoot pistols with safeties and the vast majority of my shooting lately (and all shooting on the move) has beeen handguns.

We'll see how it goes...

[El Cid]

I'll admit I didn't always safe the rifle during reloads until several years ago in a Pat Mac class. Now I know better. No sight picture? Rifle on safe.

[Redhat]

We had an officer a shoot a dog with a rifle at a dope house when a thug inside decided to release the hounds. He never put the rifle on safe, about 45 minutes later the officers slung rifle's trigger and duty belt interfaced, and fired a round into the ground. There was a lack of training time and enforcement of safe practice issues that contributed to that.

If it's not a subconscious habit to always the put the rifle on safe, at some point it's not going to happen when it really needs to happen in a stressful situation. Always putting the rifle on safe helps prevent those situations where we snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

It doesn't help when guys let the rifle "hang" with the safety rubbing up against them or their gear either as it can get wiped off.

[Odin Bravo One]

I see that well trained shooters seem to think alike ;) This is contrary to some of the "interesting' comments on the youtube channel. Any helpful comments on there would greatly be appreciated!

I’d love to help, but it’s all I can do to read some of the comments here.....

[Unobtanium]

I was taught by multiple active duty instructors that trained usasoc (not trying to be annoying, they don't post/want their names online with the exception of Kyle Lamb, as they are active duty), and every single one of them taught safety on until on target, then back on when coming off target, for rifle/carbine.

I trust their judgement more than YouTube or the DeltaRangerSEAL at Cabelas.

[Leroy]

Not LES, but I would go with a yes. I would liken it to dropping a gun. DQ in my book.

It would be to subjective, what constitutes moving or not shooting? When I dabbled in 3 gun I did use the safety for longer movements but trying to enforce it evenly and fairly on everyone during a smaller pistol style stage would be impossible.

[That Guy]

In courses I always safety (and decock my TDA guns) when moving or not firing.

In competition I only decock my Beretta when I’m told to unload and show clear.Personally, I want to do it right every time, so I always safe/decock any gun I'm holding before moving.

I never win, but the "extra" manipulation or multiple DA shots during the course of fire aren't the thing holding me back.

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[Mike C]

It would be to subjective, what constitutes moving or not shooting? When I dabbled in 3 gun I did use the safety for longer movements but trying to enforce it evenly and fairly on everyone during a smaller pistol style stage would be impossible.

I get what your saying but it’s pretty simple. Movement is not subjective. Your feet shift place, you take so much as a step, skip, hop or whatever that is movement. There is a significant difference between shooting while stationary and shooting on the move or shooting while moving into and out of position. This all has to do with the fact that a threat or target is present/visible and it is feasible/necessary to engage based on proximity or other factors. These are pretty simple and can be laid out just as they have for me when I was taught.

Despite our own biases I think at the end we can take all of this away. Just look at the core aspect of safety. Safety for yourself, and more importantly for others. It makes no difference whether it is on a stage at competition, in the field, or in another country playing for keeps. If you haven’t made the conscious decision to fire and sights are on target the safety is on period, if you do anything else other than that you are inviting Murphy over for a banquet.

This isn’t to take away from what you are saying. I can see how it could be very difficult to regulate in a game and it would be subject to lots of argumentation but the argument is worth having in my opinion. I’d rather piss everyone off a risk being thought of as a “D” bag to make others and myself more safe and competent. Frankly I just don’t see how difficulties regulating something like that changes the facts and I’ve never been one to let the difficulty of a task be the deciding factor as to whether or not I attempt to do something. I don’t see why I should let others use it as an excuse either.

[Clobbersaurus]

Personally, I want to do it right every time, so I always safe/decock any gun I'm holding before moving.

I never win, but the "extra" manipulation or multiple DA shots during the course of fire aren't the thing holding me back.

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This is a little off topic for a rifle thread, but I started it with my original post, so I apologize the OP and mods.

I’ve shot an IPSC match with a Beretta 92D. If I recall correctly, the speed difference was enough to drop me down a classification from where I normally placed at that match. DAO split speeds coupled with a 6lb DA trigger vs. a 3lb SA trigger make a difference when you are trying to make master class. I assume that gap would widen further having to decock manually on every movement.

It was a worthwhile experience for me as I learned that the DAO trigger length gave me options that an SA trigger does not, but it also taught me that if you want to do your best at competitions they are best played with competition gear and in the method that gets you the highest hit factor.

[Sal Picante]

Do you think there should be? I tend to gravitate towards yes.

In the game? I dunno. Good luck enforcing it...

[JodyH]

In the game? I dunno. Good luck enforcing it...
Enforcing it would be easy.
The next match would be even easier because you'd have 90% fewer shooters attending.

[breakingtime91]

Enforcing it would be easy.
The next match would be even easier because you'd have 90% fewer shooters attending.

Good to see you back Jody. Ya, maybe it is my background but I would DQ people.

[LOKNLOD]

In the game? I dunno. Good luck enforcing it...

We let people run all over a stage with loaded pistols and no safeties, and pistols are shorter and (relative to carbines) harder to keep the muzzle direction controlled.

I don’t disagree at all the safetying the carbine when not on target is best practice, but asking uspsa pcc folks to do it is mitigating a lesser risk among a smaller population compared the dramatically larger set of folks not doing it in a higher risk situation.

[That Guy]

I assume that gap would widen further having to decock manually on every movement.


Why would that be? Unless by decocking manually you mean lowering the hammer yourself. In which case I would agree, that would make no sense. But swiping the decocker lever on my PX4 with my thumb adds zero time to dismounting the gun - and what's more by doing it every time, it becomes automatic to do so. Which I personally find to be important.

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[Redhat]

Why would that be? Unless by decocking manually you mean lowering the hammer yourself. In which case I would agree, that would make no sense. But swiping the decocker lever on my PX4 with my thumb adds zero time to dismounting the gun - and what's more by doing it every time, it becomes automatic to do so. Which I personally find to be important.

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Why would this be any more difficult than safe-ing your ar?

[That Guy]

Why would this be any more difficult than safe-ing your ar?No bloody idea.

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[Clobbersaurus]

Why would this be any more difficult than safe-ing your ar?


No bloody idea.

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^^^ I had a long post typed up in response but it all really boils down to hair splitting and personal opinion.

I am comfortable with my current personal rules for mechanical safety use and trigger finger discipline. That opinion may change in the future, but as of today I haven’t been convinced that what I am doing needs to be adjusted.

[Odin Bravo One]

Threads like this remind me why I’m glad I don’t shoot matches........

Timely too.

Every so often I get the urge to return to competitive shooting. These discussions put an abrupt end to that urge.

[Clobbersaurus]

Threads like this remind me why I’m glad I don’t shoot matches........

Timely too.

Every so often I get the urge to return to competitive shooting. These discussions put an abrupt end to that urge.

I’ll probably regret posting this, but I assume some of my posts in this thread, as I made many comments about competition, make you feel this way?

I’m kinda confused because I stated much earlier in the thread that outside competition I use my safety and decock always. In competition I do what 99.99% of all competitors do in an RO controlled environment, well within the rules of a very rule and safety focussed sport. It’s just a game...

I don’t think that makes me a total tool?

[JHC]

I get what your saying but it’s pretty simple. Movement is not subjective. Your feet shift place, you take so much as a step, skip, hop or whatever that is movement. There is a significant difference between shooting while stationary and shooting on the move or shooting while moving into and out of position. This all has to do with the fact that a threat or target is present/visible and it is feasible/necessary to engage based on proximity or other factors. These are pretty simple and can be laid out just as they have for me when I was taught.

Despite our own biases I think at the end we can take all of this away. Just look at the core aspect of safety. Safety for yourself, and more importantly for others. It makes no difference whether it is on a stage at competition, in the field, or in another country playing for keeps. If you haven’t made the conscious decision to fire and sights are on target the safety is on period, if you do anything else other than that you are inviting Murphy over for a banquet.

This isn’t to take away from what you are saying. I can see how it could be very difficult to regulate in a game and it would be subject to lots of argumentation but the argument is worth having in my opinion. I’d rather piss everyone off a risk being thought of as a “D” bag to make others and myself more safe and competent. Frankly I just don’t see how difficulties regulating something like that changes the facts and I’ve never been one to let the difficulty of a task be the deciding factor as to whether or not I attempt to do something. I don’t see why I should let others use it as an excuse either.

Fookin brilliant. My elder son ran a 92FS pretty hard in my club's local matches before active duty. Lots of movement. He decocked safed the 92 when moving if not shooting even knowing he was moving but 15 or 20 feet. Well meaning ROs offered that he'd find it easier to not decock between. He was like "cool" but never changed. Still out ran me shooting Glocks.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Had a longish response typed up the other night, then we had to go help on an OIS ... someone jumped on my computer and it went away.

I've gone to the Off Target - On Safe / On Target & Shooting - Off Safe model. That was based on instruction & commentary from the guys advocating it, reinforced by looking at previous (& recent) L/E negligent shootings where weapons weren't safed when off target & there were lousy outcomes. Fortunately, shotguns & ARs can be easily modified ton suppert left handers who prefer it. I'd made this switch when I still carried a 1911, applied with a M&P but not so much with the Glock :) .

[Sal Picante]

Enforcing it would be easy.
The next match would be even easier because you'd have 90% fewer shooters attending.

Look... I agree that people should safe the rifle. However, I guarantee you that in this 90% volunteer sport, 90% of the RO's aren't going to be able to spot it and apply it in a uniform manner.

Again, USPSA != training/real life/etc. People do stupid things all the time: shoot sub 1# triggers, use Race holsters, don't decock/safe while moving with a pistol with a lighter trigger than a rifle, etc... I dunno... Just a game.

[Sal Picante]

This is a little off topic for a rifle thread, but I started it with my original post, so I apologize the OP and mods.

I’ve shot an IPSC match with a Beretta 92D. If I recall correctly, the speed difference was enough to drop me down a classification from where I normally placed at that match. DAO split speeds coupled with a 6lb DA trigger vs. a 3lb SA trigger make a difference when you are trying to make master class. I assume that gap would widen further having to decock manually on every movement.

It was a worthwhile experience for me as I learned that the DAO trigger length gave me options that an SA trigger does not, but it also taught me that if you want to do your best at competitions they are best played with competition gear and in the method that gets you the highest hit factor.

Back when I had my DAO 92, I noticed similar things... I was maybe 5-10% handicapped by the inability to split reliably. I think with practice this could be minimized, but I know I'd still be behind.

USPSA is a game where people do gamer shit... The beauty is that people can shoot it however they want: decock between movement, run from concealment, pie-out from "cover", etc...

[Sal Picante]

Had a longish response typed up the other night, then we had to go help on an OIS ... someone jumped on my computer and it went away.

I've gone to the Off Target - On Safe / On Target & Shooting - Off Safe model. That was based on instruction & commentary from the guys advocating it, reinforced by looking at previous (& recent) L/E negligent shootings where weapons weren't safed when off target & there were lousy outcomes. Fortunately, shotguns & ARs can be easily modified ton suppert left handers who prefer it. I'd made this switch when I still carried a 1911, applied with a M&P but not so much with the Glock :) .

Had a number of longer discussion with Paul Sharp 'bout this regarding decocking a 92 in usage. We differed in what we said/understood, but I think that is because my background is with USPSA.
In gun games, the stages are so short that the "engagement" tends to roll right along the end of the stage. If you're doing it right, there is hardly a moment where you're off the trigger.

It is interesting that in some more of the defensive shooting classes I've taken, I tend to decock not even knowing it... E.g. when he gun comes back to "ready", it just sorta ends up decocked.

MikeC mentioned that this is a discussion worth having. I agree...

[JodyH]

Look... I agree that people should safe the rifle. However, I guarantee you that in this 90% volunteer sport, 90% of the RO's aren't going to be able to spot it and apply it in a uniform manner.

Again, USPSA != training/real life/etc. People do stupid things all the time: shoot sub 1# triggers, use Race holsters, don't decock/safe while moving with a pistol with a lighter trigger than a rifle, etc... I dunno... Just a game.
That's what I meant by my post.
Enforcing it would be easy the first match, just DQ everybody.
Next match... 90% of the shooters wouldn't come back, so enforcement would be even easier.
Third match... "hey where'd all the shooters go?", I guess we can pack up and go home early today.

[Sal Picante]

That's what I meant by my post.
Enforcing it would be easy the first match, just DQ everybody.
Next match... 90% of the shooters wouldn't come back, so enforcement would be even easier.
Third match... "hey where'd all the shooters go?", I guess we can pack up and go home early today.

That may be "a solution", but not much fun... Thanks for rebirth of 3-gun nation...

[JodyH]

That may be "a solution", but not much fun... Thanks for rebirth of 3-gun nation...
"Muzzle and finger" is all that's needed to have a safe match with consistent enforcement of safety violations.
Anything else becomes subjective and requires too much of the already taxed RO's attention.
It's hard enough chasing a shooter through a stage while watching their muzzle direction, finger position, listening for squibs and Virginia count rounds fired, using your peripheral vision to watch for rules conformance (shooting positions, target engagement, fault lines etc.) range failures and looking out for random people wandering into the shooting area all while trying not to trip and fall or run into the shooter.

[TiroFijo]

Why would you be so anal in competition about decocking, when there are so many glocks and similar striker guns that don't even have that option?

[Sal Picante]

Why would you be so anal in competition about decocking, when there are so many glocks and similar striker guns that don't even have that option?

I'm not... Some folks like the gun decocked when there is no clear engagement... I kinda get it.

[YVK]

I get what your saying but it’s pretty simple. Movement is not subjective. Your feet shift place, you take so much as a step, skip, hop or whatever that is movement.


Movement or not is binary but target engagement isn't, as Les pointed out below.




In gun games, the stages are so short that the "engagement" tends to roll right along the end of the stage. If you're doing it right, there is hardly a moment where you're off the trigger.


With the exception of very long stages, when I get off an array I have to reload (Production) and nobody that I know of says to safe or decock before doing a speed reload. If I did everything right, once I am done reloading, I should be in a position to be aiming and shooting again. I don't really see where the time for safe or decock comes in.

In regards to games vs not games, here is my honest question to those who are in the know about real life: if you had to engage 16 actively shooting adversaries in four known locations, each location separated by 5-8 steps, would you put your rifle on safe making those steps, or would you have come into those positions with rifle shouldered, off safe and ready to shoot as soon as you saw a sight picture?

[Redhat]

Movement or not is binary but target engagement isn't, as Les pointed out below.



With the exception of very long stages, when I get off an array I have to reload (Production) and nobody that I know of says to safe or decock before doing a speed reload. If I did everything right, once I am done reloading, I should be in a position to be aiming and shooting again. I don't really see where the time for safe or decock comes in.

In regards to games vs not games, here is my honest question to those who are in the know about real life: if you had to engage 16 actively shooting adversaries in four known locations, each location separated by 5-8 steps, would you put your rifle on safe making those steps, or would you have come into those positions with rifle shouldered, off safe and ready to shoot as soon as you saw a sight picture?

Good question

In your scenario why would you need to move those 5-8 steps?

[YVK]

To give yourself a better shooting position. You know where the opponents are and where you gonna be shooting at after you took your 8 steps. You need to clear a barricade, or just advance on, or whatever other reason

[El Cid]

Movement or not is binary but target engagement isn't, as Les pointed out below.



With the exception of very long stages, when I get off an array I have to reload (Production) and nobody that I know of says to safe or decock before doing a speed reload. If I did everything right, once I am done reloading, I should be in a position to be aiming and shooting again. I don't really see where the time for safe or decock comes in.

In regards to games vs not games, here is my honest question to those who are in the know about real life: if you had to engage 16 actively shooting adversaries in four known locations, each location separated by 5-8 steps, would you put your rifle on safe making those steps, or would you have come into those positions with rifle shouldered, off safe and ready to shoot as soon as you saw a sight picture?

Speed reloads with a handgun, no. But then you can't safe a 1911 or decock a Sig with the slide locked to the rear. With an AR - yessir, every time.

As for your threat scenario, yes I'd safe the rifle if I'm moving and don't have a sight picture.

The people I usually see balk at safing an AR are people who aren't comfortable enough with it. This is most often from a lack of training. If you practice enough it won't slow you down and you'll do it so quickly and efficiently that its second nature. I've told this story before, but many years ago my carry gun was my only gun. It was a 1911 pattern pistol (P14-45) and I carried it in a holster with a thumb break. A buddy had a Sig 226 and open top holster. He kept telling me I was going to get myself killed because the manual safety and thumb break made me so slow. Knowing I practice dry and live fire significantly more than him we had his wife say "when" at the range. I smoked him every time.

Bottom line is if we master our weapon we will amaze ourselves with what we can do.

[Redhat]

To give yourself a better shooting position. You know where the opponents are and where you gonna be shooting at after you took your 8 steps. You need to clear a barricade, or just advance on, or whatever other reason

Yes I would.

[Mike C]

Movement or not is binary but target engagement isn't, as Les pointed out below.



With the exception of very long stages, when I get off an array I have to reload (Production) and nobody that I know of says to safe or decock before doing a speed reload. If I did everything right, once I am done reloading, I should be in a position to be aiming and shooting again. I don't really see where the time for safe or decock comes in.

In regards to games vs not games, here is my honest question to those who are in the know about real life: if you had to engage 16 actively shooting adversaries in four known locations, each location separated by 5-8 steps, would you put your rifle on safe making those steps, or would you have come into those positions with rifle shouldered, off safe and ready to shoot as soon as you saw a sight picture?

This would be a hell of a lot easier to explain in person but I will do my best so please bear with me. When you cutout the rest of my post it is taken a bit out of context. There is a difference in shooting stationary working a piece of cover and shooting on the move, or just moving. What Les is talking about is shooting on the move/into,out of position while targets are visible and reloading on the move. Not the same thing as running from one piece of cover to another while not actively engaging a target. Bottom line is if you aren't actively engaging a target and have time to move and do a, "speed reload" then you have the time to flip the safety on while bringing the gun into your work space and move to advance your position. Time penalty is negligible the risks are not. If you are talking about a slide lock/emergency reload that is a little different, in the context of a rifle I transition to secondary if threat is imminent, if it's a pistol I work the slide lock reload and won't fuck with a safety because I need bullets RFN. So these are two totally different animals.

To answer your question I would back the hell up and CAS that shit (seriously). On the other hand if we are talking about real world experience I have never encounter a situation anywhere near what you are describing inside a building but what I can tell you and what I have experienced is that I have been trained to keep my weapon on safe, finger off the trigger, (in hard register, thank you SN) until sights are on target and I've made the conscious decision to fire. This happened every time under stress without a conscious thought. Any time me and mine rolled into a hot building with people inside actively trying to kill us my weapon was on safe until I had a target in my sights period every time without exception. My weapon wasn't on semi standing in the hallway waiting to enter a room knowing someone was in there waiting to shoot us, it was on safe, (you frag that shit first anyways if wall structure makes it possible). My weapon was on safe even when at high ready covering my guys while making entry, or in a rolling T down the hall while clearing, or stacked up, same when HI/LOing a corner/pieing or whatever. Every member of my fire team, then my squad and later my platoon was the exact same way. If you are talking about the transition between two or three targets in the same area the answer is it depends. If I am engaging a target, then another presents itself and I don't have to skirt a NS/Civilian or a squad member then no. If I have to skirt a NS/Civilian or a squad member then I will be moving to provide a better vantage point and I sure as shit will safe my weapon or at least attempt to in the process, (I have never encountered this specifically but this is how I was trained). If I am breaking line of sight with a threat or target and moving, even five to eight steps my weapon goes back on safe. It happened every time because that's how I was trained. In tight quarters and in a team based environment bad shit can happen. Keeping your weapon on safe and thumb riding up the safety when not in use mitigates a lot of risk.

I realize that some of this might come off as dickish, it's not intended as such. I do have some pretty stern feelings regarding these things as I have on more that one occasion born witness to FF incidents.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I don't feel like I'm in a position to tell others what to do or why but I personally have a thing where as I come off the target with an AR I say to myself (sometimes very quickly) "it's safe to go forward". When I run that program I flip the safety selector forward with my thumb and then I can go forward, on safe.

I realize that is pretty dorky but it's how I originally adapted to the idea and now I can't stop.

I just did a carbine course - which I almost never do, like once every five years never - and I realized that even when doing weird movement stuff that I am really not used to, the program would just automatically run every time I came off the target. And personally I found it reassuring.

I definitely can't speak to USPSA type environments but at the speed I personally go with an AR, it takes me more time to shoulder the gun from high ready than I need to run the selector switch.

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[That Guy]

In gun games, the stages are so short that the "engagement" tends to roll right along the end of the stage. If you're doing it right, there is hardly a moment where you're off the trigger.


This may depend on the location and sport - I've come across stages with significant movement between shooting areas. (Let's say 5 to 10 meters or more - sometimes much more, especially with our local military 3 gun. Those guys love to put sprints into their stages.) Sometimes this movement takes place over broken ground.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[YVK]

Good post, Mike.



What Les is talking about is shooting on the move/into,out of position while targets are visible and reloading on the move. Not the same thing as running from one piece of cover to another while not actively engaging a target. Bottom line is if you aren't actively engaging a target and have time to move and do a, "speed reload" then you have the time to flip the safety on while bringing the gun into your work space and move to advance your position. Time penalty is negligible the risks are not.



I won't speak for Les but from my prospective of specifically competition shooting, I usually have four-five steps to get a reload done and get my gun back up and start actively aiming at the target, sometimes before I even see it open, while trying to stabilize gun. I see up to mid level A shooters fail to do that pretty regularly even without flipping safety on. This results into people arriving to a position and then starting shooting as opposed to shooting as you're getting there. Sometimes this results in being at a next position and not having a gun reloaded since many people can cover 5 steps in one second but not too many can reload a gun in one second, especially when moving. Adding two additional mental tasks is going to cost time in such cases.

As far as non-competition situation, all I can say is an admission: if I knew that I'd be shooting at multiple hostiles, known direction, within next 1.5-2 seconds, I am nearly certain I won't safe my gun. In fact, if it was on safe, I'd probably disengage the safety. I am not saying it is a right thing to do and I certainly not backing it up by any authority. Like many here, I trained with number of dudes who taught safety on unless sights are on. If situation lacks certainty and immediacy and I am just moving, I am sure I would decock, make it safe and all of that. But I were facing a certain and immediate contact in a known direction within few steps/seconds, I doubt I would have a will power not to flip the safety off. Again, this is just an admission, not a statement of correct actions.

[willie]

I understand why shooters decock pistols like B92's in competition, but I can't comprehend doing the same when engaging a real live target in a house or building after I had fired the weapon, missed, or wounded the person and was still looking for him or waiting to be sought out. One reason is the clunk sound of decocking; another is having the weapon momentarily disabled and then having to shoot double action when I fired again. If a guy swore on a stack of bibles that he would decock under these circumstances, I would not call him a fibber, I would merely keep my mouth shut and nod in awe at this pistol expert and walk away.

[Sal Picante]

I understand why shooters decock pistols like B92's in competition, but I can't comprehend doing the same when engaging a real live target in a house or building after I had fired the weapon, missed, or wounded the person and was still looking for him or waiting to be sought out. One reason is the clunk sound of decocking; another is having the weapon momentarily disabled and then having to shoot double action when I fired again. If a guy swore on a stack of bibles that he would decock under these circumstances, I would not call him a fibber, I would merely keep my mouth shut and nod in awe at this pistol expert and walk away.

I really don't see anyone decocking a pistol in competition. Ever. That said, I can see quite a few people decocking in your scenario...

Let's turn this around for a sec, though: Would you "safe" a rifle in this situation? I suspect I would...

[willie]

No, I would not, but must admit I have no formal training. Doing so would be counter intuitive. Anyway, at this stage of the game, for me the debate is what I'd do in my house where only my wife and I reside. I would let the police clear my house, and while waiting for them, my wife and I would be in the same room. One they arrived the weapons would go on safe and at the appropriate time laid down if they directed me to do so.

[Mike C]

I understand why shooters decock pistols like B92's in competition, but I can't comprehend doing the same when engaging a real live target in a house or building after I had fired the weapon, missed, or wounded the person and was still looking for him or waiting to be sought out. One reason is the clunk sound of decocking; another is having the weapon momentarily disabled and then having to shoot double action when I fired again. If a guy swore on a stack of bibles that he would decock under these circumstances, I would not call him a fibber, I would merely keep my mouth shut and nod in awe at this pistol expert and walk away.

It's not a matter of being an expert. It is a matter of hardwiring solid and safe habits when dismounting a gun. If you look through some of Dagga Boy's posts you will see some examples of dismounting a pistol and subconsciously decocking the gun under stress before the conscious thought arrived to do so. He did this while working in LE and has laid out other excellent examples of his officers doing similar things during and post shooting. There are more from other posters as well who work LE here on this forum. All of what we are discussing here is a matter of good training habits and reps nothing more, there isn't some magical or secret sauce unless you count hard work as such.

[JodyH]

"Real world"... situation dependent.
"Competition"... situation dependent.

Like pretty much every other tactic.

[Hambo]

I understand why shooters decock pistols like B92's in competition, but I can't comprehend doing the same when engaging a real live target


No, I would not, but must admit I have no formal training.

These things are related.

[Robinson]

I understand why shooters decock pistols like B92's in competition, but I can't comprehend doing the same when engaging a real live target in a house or building after I had fired the weapon, missed, or wounded the person and was still looking for him or waiting to be sought out.

When you work with double action pistols a lot, that first double action trigger pull really isn't a big deal. In fact I think it can be viewed as an advantage is some scenarios. I like having the long double action trigger on a DA/SA pistol for the same reason I like having a thumb safety on a 1911. It requires a deliberate action to fire a shot from de-cocked / on safe respectively.

[JHC]

This would be a hell of a lot easier to explain in person but I will do my best so please bear with me. When you cutout the rest of my post it is taken a bit out of context. There is a difference in shooting stationary working a piece of cover and shooting on the move, or just moving. What Les is talking about is shooting on the move/into,out of position while targets are visible and reloading on the move. Not the same thing as running from one piece of cover to another while not actively engaging a target. Bottom line is if you aren't actively engaging a target and have time to move and do a, "speed reload" then you have the time to flip the safety on while bringing the gun into your work space and move to advance your position. Time penalty is negligible the risks are not. If you are talking about a slide lock/emergency reload that is a little different, in the context of a rifle I transition to secondary if threat is imminent, if it's a pistol I work the slide lock reload and won't fuck with a safety because I need bullets RFN. So these are two totally different animals.

To answer your question I would back the hell up and CAS that shit (seriously). On the other hand if we are talking about real world experience I have never encounter a situation anywhere near what you are describing inside a building but what I can tell you and what I have experienced is that I have been trained to keep my weapon on safe, finger off the trigger, (in hard register, thank you SN) until sights are on target and I've made the conscious decision to fire. This happened every time under stress without a conscious thought. Any time me and mine rolled into a hot building with people inside actively trying to kill us my weapon was on safe until I had a target in my sights period every time without exception. My weapon wasn't on semi standing in the hallway waiting to enter a room knowing someone was in there waiting to shoot us, it was on safe, (you frag that shit first anyways if wall structure makes it possible). My weapon was on safe even when at high ready covering my guys while making entry, or in a rolling T down the hall while clearing, or stacked up, same when HI/LOing a corner/pieing or whatever. Every member of my fire team, then my squad and later my platoon was the exact same way. If you are talking about the transition between two or three targets in the same area the answer is it depends. If I am engaging a target, then another presents itself and I don't have to skirt a NS/Civilian or a squad member then no. If I have to skirt a NS/Civilian or a squad member then I will be moving to provide a better vantage point and I sure as shit will safe my weapon or at least attempt to in the process, (I have never encountered this specifically but this is how I was trained). If I am breaking line of sight with a threat or target and moving, even five to eight steps my weapon goes back on safe. It happened every time because that's how I was trained. In tight quarters and in a team based environment bad shit can happen. Keeping your weapon on safe and thumb riding up the safety when not in use mitigates a lot of risk.

I realize that some of this might come off as dickish, it's not intended as such. I do have some pretty stern feelings regarding these things as I have on more that one occasion born witness to FF incidents.

Outstanding breakdown of the details.

You are highlighting the vast reservoir of valid contextual experience that anyone who may be in a gunfight, military or lone civilian, can really benefit from. Keep it up please.

[JHC]

Speed reloads with a handgun, no. But then you can't safe a 1911 or decock a Sig with the slide locked to the rear. With an AR - yessir, every time.

As for your threat scenario, yes I'd safe the rifle if I'm moving and don't have a sight picture.

The people I usually see balk at safing an AR are people who aren't comfortable enough with it. This is most often from a lack of training. If you practice enough it won't slow you down and you'll do it so quickly and efficiently that its second nature. I've told this story before, but many years ago my carry gun was my only gun. It was a 1911 pattern pistol (P14-45) and I carried it in a holster with a thumb break. A buddy had a Sig 226 and open top holster. He kept telling me I was going to get myself killed because the manual safety and thumb break made me so slow. Knowing I practice dry and live fire significantly more than him we had his wife say "when" at the range. I smoked him every time.

Bottom line is if we master our weapon we will amaze ourselves with what we can do.

In our two days with Frank Proctor, he ran my son and I through what felt like a thousand reps of shooting the carbine to empty, safing it, then reload and back to firing. It got fast and sure.

Frank explained in those events, anything could happen in any fraction of a second whereby a firearm on safe is better than not ie you are run into by a team mate, you are blown off your feet by an explosion, the list is endless.

[Redhat]

...Frank explained in those events, anything could happen in any fraction of a second whereby a firearm on safe is better than not ie you are run into by a team mate, you are blown off your feet by an explosion, the list is endless.

Or something even more common...you trip

[EricM]

From an older thread about when to decock/safe a pistol, this has always stuck with me: (emphasis mine)


I tend to de-cock the moment I have deciding I am done shooting, for now. Once my finger comes off the trigger, I feel free to de-cock, so I do. I de-cock before I bring the pistol down from the engagement position. If I shot from retention, I find the distance I need while shooting, or come to full, two handed presentation to finish the festivities, then finger off trigger, de-cock, lower pistol, and go from there. Usually to the holster. Can't think of many instances where I would not go to the holster.......

I don't move unless the hammer is down, having been properly de-cocked, or the pistol not fired in the first place. If I am moving and shooting, then duh, I don't worry about de-cocking in between shots. But if I am moving, even only 5 feet, I de-cock. Too many bad things can happen with a cocked pistol, that is not on "safe". Even during those "only 5 feet". The problem I have with it is that we use those 5 feet as justification for unsafe behavior. If I asked would you run 500 feet, would your answer be to run with a cocked pistol, or de-cock first? If it is to de-cock first, then we missed the point. The point being that if moving 500 feet is unsafe, then so is moving 5 feet. It isn't the distance involved, it is the dangerous aspect......the moving. We then use the distance as justification.

I see it on ranges in shooting courses/gun school all the time. "Do not pick up anything from in front of the firing line until the line is called COLD". It starts with picking up mags and items that fall behind the line. Then it is a toe reaching out to drag it behind the line before picking it up. Then it is stepping one step in front of the line to drag items back. Where does it end? When it is seen as a gross violation most of the time. Quality instructors end it the first time they see it happen. Same with moving with a gun cocked, or off safe. I find it unacceptable, regardless of the distance traveled.

Unsafe behavior is unsafe behavior. Perhaps the particular circumstances that one time were not unsafe, but if the behavior is unsafe, we are allowing unsafe habits to form. It isn't long before some "expert" gun handler becomes the latest blog/forum/YouTube sensation for having been a dumbass.

The scariest dude on the range or with a gun, is the "expert", especially if self-proclaimed. But even true experts are dangerous. Because they are generally set in their habits, and do not stop to consciously think about gun handling,unless they have created a habit out of doing so, because they know the dangers of complacency and justification.

[David S.]

I’m kinda confused because I stated much earlier in the thread that outside competition I use my safety and decock always. In competition I do what 99.99% of all competitors do in an RO controlled environment, well within the rules of a very rule and safety focussed sport. It’s just a game...

What's your context?

What techniques do you want to "hardwire"? What are you trying to get out competition? What are you willing to sacrifice to reach your competition goals? That's all that matters.

For example, when I shot competition, I would impose a few constraints on myself above and beyond the competition rules. 1. Use gun, gear and cover garment as close to my EDC as rules would allow. 2. Never muzzle a no-shoot. 3. De-cock/activate safety any time I wasn't actively shooting. 4. Maintain a low muzzle (ready position?) while moving.

As a civilian defender, competition is one of the few venues I can regularly handle a gun under stress. There's all kinds of other "street" TTP's, such as movement and use of cover, that could impose on myself to make competition more "real," but I'm not competing to develop those skills. For me, muzzle control (rule 2) and de-cocking/safeing are not negotiable, and I want to use competition to develop confidence in my ability to execute those particular skills under stress. I'm willing to sacrifice ranking to satisfy those constraints.

How you develop them is very subjective. You have to decide what's important to you and how to best develop the skills that are important to you.

[TiroFijo]

Let me ask, those (many) guys using glocks in real life have to ??? to avoid shooting innocent people and themselves every time they take a couple of steps?

[WobblyPossum]

For anyone saying that re-engaging a safety or decocking a gun after coming off target is unnatural or un-intuitive, I have to ask, is any of this stuff natural or intuitive? You're squeezing a hunk of metal until an explosion goes off at arms reach from your face. There's nothing intuitive or natural about that. It all comes down to what actions you perform enough to make them subconscious habits. If you train to decock or re-engage the safety every time you come off target, that's exactly what you'll do if you have to use a gun in a defensive situation. If you don't train those things, you might fumble, forget, or screw up.

I know that if I'm moving around with a gun in my hand with other people around me in a situation where there are things outside of my control, I'd much rather have that gun on safe or decocked if those are options available to me. When speaking specifically about ARs, it takes no extra time to take the safety off while you're bringing up the weapon into a firing position. If you're not already aimed in when something that needs to be shot appears in front of you, you're going to have to move your weapon into position to shoot that thing. Last I checked, we don't normally walk around clearing rooms or patrolling with the rifle up in front of our face, blocking a lot of our vision if there's nothing that needs to be shot immediately in front of us.

Mike C said it better than I can though so just read his post again for a better idea of what I'm trying to convey.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I've been gone awhile, now I see why after this thread. Painful.

[willie]

I enjoyed and benefitted from reading the entire thread, especially those responses to my comments.

[El Cid]

Let me ask, those (many) guys using glocks in real life have to ??? to avoid shooting innocent people and themselves every time they take a couple of steps?

I don’t see a Glock/M&P/VP9/APX/P10C/etc. as being the equivalent of a 1911/BHP or AR off safe. The factory trigger of those weapons isn't the same in my experience. Now, a shooter can customize/lighten the trigger of any gun including striker fired... but that's why you hear folks talk about how those modifications are not safe or appropriate for duty/defensive use. Most striker fired pistols are at or near that limit, but the amount of travel and the weight needed to discharge an AR is not even close to a factory Glock. Before you ask - yes, if my Glock had a safety, I'd use it during movement. I don't want anyone putting holes in my teammates or me - but I sure as hell don't want ME to be the one putting a hole in them/myself.

It amazes me that people will ignore advice from professional trainers, especially those with backgrounds in units that come up with these practices because they've seen people injured or killed when not using them. It all goes back to the core advice we give to new gun owners. Get training from a reputable source. That's more important than any of the whiz-bang accessories for a firearm, or a 4th AR, when you haven't mastered the basics.

With regard to matches, I completely agree it's too difficult to monitor safety usage. And most AR's don't have high visibility or ambi safeties (the RO is often on the right side of the rifle). And since I don't run matches, I don't get to say how things are done. But I can tell you that anyone who works with me and refuses to safe their rifle when they don't have a sight picture won't be doing anything more than sitting in the CP monitoring the radios.



No, I would not, but must admit I have no formal training. Doing so would be counter intuitive. Anyway, at this stage of the game, for me the debate is what I'd do in my house where only my wife and I reside. I would let the police clear my house, and while waiting for them, my wife and I would be in the same room. One they arrived the weapons would go on safe and at the appropriate time laid down if they directed me to do so.
Oh, and sitting in your home with your AR off safe while waiting for LE to show up... not smart either. You have a negligent discharge and you may find the responding officers lighting you up in response. How do you justify sitting in a room with your family, with a loaded rifle, and no visible threat... with the rifle not on safe?? Did I misread that post?

[willie]

You read it correctly.

[TiroFijo]

I don’t see a Glock/M&P/VP9/APX/P10C/etc. as being the equivalent of a 1911/BHP or AR off safe. The factory trigger of those weapons isn't the same in my experience. Now, a shooter can customize/lighten the trigger of any gun including striker fired... but that's why you hear folks talk about how those modifications are not safe or appropriate for duty/defensive use. Most striker fired pistols are at or near that limit, but the amount of travel and the weight needed to discharge an AR is not even close to a factory Glock. Before you ask - yes, if my Glock had a safety, I'd use it during movement. I don't want anyone putting holes in my teammates or me - but I sure as hell don't want ME to be the one putting a hole in them/myself.

It amazes me that people will ignore advice from professional trainers, especially those with backgrounds in units that come up with these practices because they've seen people injured or killed when not using them. It all goes back to the core advice we give to new gun owners. Get training from a reputable source. That's more important than any of the whiz-bang accessories for a firearm, or a 4th AR, when you haven't mastered the basics.


I agree with you. And I'm not mocking the knowledge and experience of experts here.

A glock has a 5.5 lbs trigger, with almost 1/2" travel to break. Other striker pistols have even lighter trigger pulls. The relatively long trigger travel is the only significant difference compared to a SA trigger, I agree is not the same but it is a gray zone. If you experience something that triggers a sympathetic response, everything including a traditional DA trigger will go bang if your finger is not rested somewhere else.

This concept of always decock or put on safe (if your gun allows) is not new to me by any means, and of course it has its merits. I was just saying that the striker guns do get a free pass, or close to it, let's be honest. And the professional LE/.mil users of glocks and similar pistols amount to huge numbers worldwide. I used to carry a glock, and I accepted it.

15 years ago or so there was a small USA SF unit in my country training our military in who knows what. They were invited to a large IPSC competition in my local club, and they showed up with their M9s complete with aftermarket mounts for WML. They run all the courses decoking every time they had to run more than a few steps, kept the gun in SA when doing just a couple of normal steps and the targets were not still visible, though, they knew the target were literally around the corner. From a friend who was a SF senior instructor at Bragg, I knew it was a sternly enforced "standard procedure" for them so I didn't tell them "you could go faster if you don't decock, dude". Their officer in charge told me it was a PITA to decock every time with the M9, not the most ergonomic pistol to do this quickly and efficiently, and showed me his calloused finger.

[PNWTO]

Is it fair to leak handgun relevant discussions into this? I would say yes as I am of camp to decock/safe whenever shooting is not the current event. Even before I had training and exposure we had a few NDs due to guys getting buck fever and either moving or dismounting vehicles in such a rush that they inevitably fell, tripped, whatever. Not to mention enough simunition ND events during MOUT shit. All this in my limited perspective and I definitely was not an "Action Guy."



You read it correctly.

At the risk of brevity, you need to re-read this thread and many others and comprehend the centuries of combined experience that we are fortunate enough to witness. Sounds like a 2018 resolution is to remedy your training needs.

[El Cid]

I agree with you. And I'm not mocking the knowledge and experience of experts here.

A glock has a 5.5 lbs trigger, with almost 1/2" travel to break. Other striker pistols have even lighter trigger pulls. The relatively long trigger travel is the only significant difference compared to a SA trigger, I agree is not the same but it is a gray zone. If you experience something that triggers a sympathetic response, everything including a traditional DA trigger will go bang if your finger is not rested somewhere else.

This concept of always decock or put on safe (if your gun allows) is not new to me by any means, and of course it has its merits. I was just saying that the striker guns do get a free pass, or close to it, let's be honest. And the professional LE/.mil users of glocks and similar pistols amount to huge numbers worldwide. I used to carry a glock, and I accepted it.

15 years ago or so there was a small USA SF unit in my country training our military in who knows what. They were invited to a large IPSC competition in my local club, and they showed up with their M9s complete with aftermarket mounts for WML. They run all the courses decoking every time they had to run more than a few steps, kept the gun in SA when doing just a couple of normal steps and the targets were not still visible, though, they knew the target were literally around the corner. From a friend who was a SF senior instructor at Bragg, I knew it was a sternly enforced "standard procedure" for them so I didn't tell them "you could go faster if you don't decock, dude". Their officer in charge told me it was a PITA to decock every time with the M9, not the most ergonomic pistol to do this quickly and efficiently, and showed me his calloused finger.

But if I have to move I can holster a handgun. Rifles don't cover the trigger. Would you sling a Glock and let it flop around on your gear?

As for the ODA you referenced - yes they could have gone faster by being less safe. But people can get shot in training or competitions too. And a COF has some artificialities in that we get to walk the stage ahead of time. In the real world he wouldn't know a target was a few steps around the corner. It sounds like they did what many of us here do - treat competition as training. It's why I shoot only factory Glocks with a concealable holster and as often as allowed - from concealment. The SF unit didn't want training scars.

[willie]

Pnwto, your opinion is welcome and respected. My comment about the long gun and no safety on pertained to a hypothetical situation wherein somebody had entered my residence. At this time my wife and I retreated to our bedroom and locked the door, called the police, and waited for help. I have my AR and two Glock 19s. The AR safety is off. Now what do I do about my Glock 19s which have live rounds in the chamber? Note that they and the AR are hot. Are the Glocks not as dangerous as is the AR with the safety off? On the AR the trigger pull is heavier than the Glocks' trigger pulls. I'm confused about the logic of telling me that while I sit in my bedroom during the time that a burglar is pillaging my house, and I have three weapons--two without a safety and one with--that it is unsafe to keep the AR in the unsafe condition but OK to have the Glocks loaded in condition one. If you can explain the difference, I would benefit from reading your explanation.

[Mr Pink]

I knew it was a sternly enforced "standard procedure" for them so I didn't tell them "you could go faster if you don't decock, dude".Time and time again, professionals have proven this to be false. If I'm trained from the beginning to "decock" or "safety", then what you'll find is no noticeable difference. I used to shoot USPSA with a Beretta and it didn't stop me from smoking dudes with "better" guns. The funny thing is that I didn't even know I was doing it because I was trained that way from the start. The problem with most competitive shooters, is they don't train that way. Maybe one day, I'll make a video showing how it doesn't make a difference. As an example, watch Frank Proctor shoot. His safety discipline is amazing. Yes, he's a USPSA GM, but he's also a Special Forces soldier, so you'll see him put in on safe before he moves.

On another note, I spent years doing CQB and teaching CQB. If you don't place your firearm on SAFE or don't DECOCK, it could result in a very BAD day. As soon as you add role players or real bad guys, you'll find that they all have a tendency of grabbing for your gun. And yes, a double action pistol (Beretta or SIG) is way hard to have an ND when it is decocked, than when it's in SA mode. Another human being grabbing your boomstick changes the game.

[TiroFijo]

Perhaps you were smoking people that were lesser shooters than yourself...
With a 1911 there is no time penalty for clicking off/on to your heart's desire, but with an M9 ??

[Redhat]

The question was brought up about Glocks and similarly designed pistols. The way I see it, they are what they are...if anything, be it finger or other object, contacts the trigger hard enough (5.5 lbs or so) they can fire and I see that as a disadvantage when moving with the weapon unholstered. So in my opinion, they have a higher chance of discharging when we don't intend for them too and must be handled accordingly.

[holmes168]

Just do a simple risk assessment on not putting your weapon on safe. Low probability of discharge, thankfully I've never has a ND. However- there could be a catastrophic result if that low probability occurs.

Once at band camp, well Iraq, a 20 year Sergeant Major and I were walking back from dinner. In a split second he was on the ground and I was checking for a hole in my chest. Some idiot on a guard tower didn't have their safety on and shot on the inside of our FOB. Thankfully the round didn't hit anyone, but crap happens.

I've never shot a competition and would like to try it just to see how I do. I will always decock or safe my pistol. The severity of what could happen isn't worth .25 seconds.

[PNWTO]

... I would benefit from reading your explanation.

So many here can probably explain this more eloquently, like the latest post by Mr Pink, but I'll take a swing:

The Glocks have some existing safeties engineered into them. I would also hope they are holstered. I would say an unholstered SFA pistol is just as dangerous as a rifle on "fire". Ceteris paribus. But the pistol can be holstered and rifle can be safed.

Via training, repetitions, and perhaps arcane sacrifice to the dark gods one may be able to bring the AR into action while taking the weapon off safe simultaneously. I have seen this drilled into Marine recruits in large numbers very quickly, so perhaps a good instructor with an appropriately sized class may have a snowball's chance in hell of imparting the same. Enabling/disabling the safety doesn't cost any time as you can do so while moving or bringing the rifle up in position. This is solely a matter of training/experience vs conjecture and I do not understand how you think you have a better scenario or idea than members here who have OIS/combat lessons learned the hard way combined with years of other experiences. Not to mention there is not one trainer of note who advises leaving the gun off safe for anything but actual operation of the weapon. I'll leave this here and hopefully more insight is offered by other members. I would read Tom_Jones post carefully and read more, post less, train more, gain more. I know the below article is not regarding your hypothetical but the take-aways are the same. I'm also not really interested in any replies you may have as they will pollute what has been a clarity generating thread for some.


Hypothetical question; if you and I were in a gunfight at mid-range and I had to do a rifle mag change from behind cover and then move behind you with a ‘hot’ gun, would you want my rifle to be on ‘Safe’?

There is only one correct answer. It would be negligent to move in close quarters with another with the rifle on ‘Fire’.

Therefore, when we practice mag changes, whether on a bolt lock or tac reload, we should throw the rifle on ‘Safe’.

This should be a subconscious level driven task. It should be rehearsed in training for the appropriate amount of meaningful repetitions to the point of ‘automaticity’.

When I hear guys say that it is not necessary to throw the weapon on safe during a reload, I am hearing them say “I am fucking lazy.” “I do not want to perform the proper amount of repetitions to ensure that this is an intuitive level task.”

Putting the rifle on ‘Safe’ during a reload, when done right, will not slow you down so it won’t become a disabler. This can only be an enabler.

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/07/30/gunfighter-moment-pat-mcnamara-36/

[BehindBlueI's]

I understand why shooters decock pistols like B92's in competition, but I can't comprehend doing the same when engaging a real live target in a house or building after I had fired the weapon, missed, or wounded the person and was still looking for him or waiting to be sought out. One reason is the clunk sound of decocking; another is having the weapon momentarily disabled and then having to shoot double action when I fired again. If a guy swore on a stack of bibles that he would decock under these circumstances, I would not call him a fibber, I would merely keep my mouth shut and nod in awe at this pistol expert and walk away.

The sound is irrelevant, the gun is not disabled, and if you can't shoot DA either practice more or ditch the gun for life saving events until you can.


Pnwto, your opinion is welcome and respected. My comment about the long gun and no safety on pertained to a hypothetical situation wherein somebody had entered my residence. At this time my wife and I retreated to our bedroom and locked the door, called the police, and waited for help. I have my AR and two Glock 19s. The AR safety is off. Now what do I do about my Glock 19s which have live rounds in the chamber? Note that they and the AR are hot. Are the Glocks not as dangerous as is the AR with the safety off? On the AR the trigger pull is heavier than the Glocks' trigger pulls. I'm confused about the logic of telling me that while I sit in my bedroom during the time that a burglar is pillaging my house, and I have three weapons--two without a safety and one with--that it is unsafe to keep the AR in the unsafe condition but OK to have the Glocks loaded in condition one. If you can explain the difference, I would benefit from reading your explanation.

The Glock only has one condition. The AR has two (safe/unsafe). If you run the gun differently at different times under different circumstances you will not subconsciously know the condition of your weapon. This will lead to either pulling a dead trigger when you want a bang or leaving the gun off safe when you thought it was safe, and since rifles don't have holsters that cover the trigger, it's not as safe as a striker fired gun.

The issue is easily overcome with training and reps. I do not remember ever manipulating my safety, but I was able to shoot when I needed to and afterward the gun was on safe both before and after, including while moving cover to cover to get in position. It doesn't cost any time to manipulate the safety, it's part of the decision making process.

So, its a matter of habit. I run the gun the same if I'm in training or real world, stationary or moving, etc. The gun becomes an extension of me and I know where it is and what condition it is just as well as I know where my hand is and if it's open or closed. As such, and because I do not have exceptions, I never pull a dead trigger because I thought this was one of those times that I left the safety off. It's also why I ditched my AK and only have AR platform rifles now. The fewer things to think about, the better, and when shit hits the fan there's a lot to think about.

I don't play competition games, so I've no input there.

[Mr Pink]

Perhaps you were smoking people that were lesser shooters than yourself...
With a 1911 there is no time penalty for clicking off/on to your heart's desire, but with an M9 ??As i said in matches, I was doing it without knowing because of proper training, it was a subconscious action. I can run a stage over and over again with and without decocking and based off of the times, you wouldn't be able to tell difference. The timer don't lie.

The problem here is that you're trying to compare those trained to those who aren't. If you were to train yourself to decock, then you'd be just as fast doing it that way. The reality is that you wouldn't go through process of doing that since you probably have other priorities. Additionally, I don't think you fully read or understood my last post.

[spinmove_]

Pnwto, your opinion is welcome and respected. My comment about the long gun and no safety on pertained to a hypothetical situation wherein somebody had entered my residence. At this time my wife and I retreated to our bedroom and locked the door, called the police, and waited for help. I have my AR and two Glock 19s. The AR safety is off. Now what do I do about my Glock 19s which have live rounds in the chamber? Note that they and the AR are hot. Are the Glocks not as dangerous as is the AR with the safety off? On the AR the trigger pull is heavier than the Glocks' trigger pulls. I'm confused about the logic of telling me that while I sit in my bedroom during the time that a burglar is pillaging my house, and I have three weapons--two without a safety and one with--that it is unsafe to keep the AR in the unsafe condition but OK to have the Glocks loaded in condition one. If you can explain the difference, I would benefit from reading your explanation.

Well, as others have stated, the Glocks only have one condition. They also have a longer, heavier, and more deliberate trigger press than an AR. They also go into a holster when not being used.

The AR has a shorter, lighter trigger press. It gets no holster, but gets a sling.

It’s been stated many times and many ways, but if it has a safety and/or decocker, when the shooter breaks presentation, it gets actuated. It’s not hard, nor does it cost any time, it’s simply proper and safe operation of the firearm. When we’re talking about using something that could end a life in the blink of an eye and mistakes can be made just as fast, I’ll take the additional layers of safety if available.

Your house, Your rules, and if that’s how you run it, good luck. But you won’t find me nor hardly anyone else here condoning that practice. If the Glocks had a safety (a la M&P) you can bet that I’d be putting them on safe up until the point I was presenting and on target and only then they’d come off safe. As soon as I break presentation, it’d be back on safe.

I have an AR. It’s on safe, in the safe, as I write this. I also have a Mossberg 500 that I use almost exclusively for clays. It’s put on safe whenever I don’t have the gun mounted, and yes, that includes between pairs. I also have a Tikka T3x in the safe. It’s completely unloaded with an empty magazine. It has a safety. It’s currently engaged.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[willie]

Tom, I see your point, which is indeed valid. I even had my opinion swayed to some extent. And you don't do that bad a job as a mod. No complaints here.:)

[YVK]

As an example, watch Frank Proctor shoot. His safety discipline is amazing. Yes, he's a USPSA GM, but he's also a Special Forces soldier, so you'll see him put in on safe before he moves.



Interestingly, the only USPSA videos of Frank's that I could find, he was shooting a regular M&P. I wouldn't want to make any inferences on a limited info and without a context. That said, on a face value one could say that Frank, despite his SF roots, didn't seem to be that concerned about getting gun on safe before moving in a gaming environment. M&P with thumb safety is just easy to get as one without. I can't really guess the answer, but if engaging a safety on before moving in all circumstances is considered a sign of a pro, and he is a pro, then why would he not choose a M&P variant with thumb safety when it is otherwise identical to the one without?

[Mr Pink]

Interestingly, the only USPSA videos of Frank's that I could find, he was shooting a regular M&P. I wouldn't want to make any inferences on a limited info and without a context. That said, on a face value one could say that Frank, despite his SF roots, didn't seem to be that concerned about getting gun on safe before moving in a gaming environment. M&P with thumb safety is just easy to get as one without. I can't really guess the answer, but if engaging a safety on before moving in all circumstances is considered a sign of a pro, and he is a pro, then why would he not choose a M&P variant with thumb safety when it is otherwise identical to the one without?Sorry I wasn't more specific, but I was referring to his use of the AR.
Second, in regards to sign of a pro, I wasn't referring to anyone's choice of firearm, only how they were trained. I'm not sure how that was taken out of context.
Third, I can tell you that as a person who was trained to decock/safe, that it doesn't make a rats as on my time during a stage. Again, the timer doesn't lie. Take any GM or M class shooter that was trained to decock first and you'll see no difference. I'm only a "M" class, but as I said before, I was initially trained to decock and spent a lot of time doing that as military person, so when I shot matches, I'd subconsciously do it. Many folks make a big deal about perceptions of time, just like what order to shoot a stage in. Many times that doesn't matter, but folks still argue over it, when the overall time is roughly the same.

[Mr Pink]

I initially started this as a way to get feedback on manipulating the AR or Carbine's safety before moving in a defensive environment. Not entirely off topic it has moved into USPSA with carbine and even the pistol. As a self proclaimed "Tactical Timmy", but also a production "M" class shooter in USPSA, I believe there is value in this discussion and a lot can be learned from the competition world.

One important thing I've learned from competition is efficiency and economy of motion are always stressed (and rightfully so). That being said, I can see how someone would think putting a carbine on safe would be slower. The issue here is that some folks have been trained to be just as efficient putting the firearm on safe, as not. If you're not trained that way, then YOU won't have the same times. Additionally, I'm not saying a competitor should decock, but I'm also saying you shouldn't poo poo on someone who has been trained that way.

I was always taught the most efficient pistol reload is "high" in front of the face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgdq1FBYTUE
But are we to argue the supposedly less efficient technique from a guy who has a proven winning track record?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z-Dhe66cAk
Bottom line is that what appears to be less efficient isn't always true and training prevails.

In regards to the pistol, I am in no way advocating one pistol over the other, nor saying that you're more of a "pro" because you shoot pistol X over pistol Z. When I was issued a Beretta, I shot Beretta in competition, and the same was true with Glock and Sig (I shot competition with it what I carried). Now I just shoot Glock, because it's the cheapest for me to shoot and they're everywhere.

[TiroFijo]

With long guns, there is nothing to argue about. Main topic here.

I was just saying that regarding pistols, a very high percentage of pro users have glocks/striker guns, so the debate kinda goes into a grey zone.

[YVK]

Second, in regards to sign of a pro, I wasn't referring to anyone's choice of firearm, only how they were trained. I'm not sure how that was taken out of context.


It wasn't. The choice of a firearm to me is merely a indicator how unimportant it was for that SF soldier, obviously trained in a very specific way that you are discussing in your initial post, to have a game gun that allows it to be put on safe before moving in that specific environment.

The AR vs pistol, game vs fight, while I think do make a difference, are less interesting aspects of this particular discussion to me. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, it is an introduction of both a certainty and immediacy of action that fascinates me. As I said, if I know I am shooting something within next 2 seconds, I find it hard to prioritize safetying of my gun in the first 0.25 second and then "unsafe" it one second later.

I never tried to decock my Elite II when I shot it in games. Then again, my decocker was thinned out since I also carried that gun and I decock my Berettas with a support hand. Naturally, this would have affected my times. Les was in this thread earlier, and he is a GM who shoots a Beretta. I wonder if he ever tested this.

[joshs]

It wasn't. The choice of a firearm to me is merely a indicator how unimportant it was for that SF soldier, obviously trained in a very specific way that you are discussing in your initial post, to have a game gun that allows it to be put on safe before moving in that specific environment.

The AR vs pistol, game vs fight, while I think do make a difference, are less interesting aspects of this particular discussion to me. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, it is an introduction of both a certainty and immediacy of action that fascinates me. As I said, if I know I am shooting something within next 2 seconds, I find it hard to prioritize safetying of my gun in the first 0.25 second and then "unsafe" it one second later.

I never tried to decock my Elite II when I shot it in games. Then again, my decocker was thinned out since I also carried that gun and I decock my Berettas with a support hand. Naturally, this would have affected my times. Les was in this thread earlier, and he is a GM who shoots a Beretta. I wonder if he ever tested this.

I will sometimes decock when shooting multigun because there are times during courses of fire where I'm simply moving without the immediate intention of reloading or shooting a target. That pretty much never happens for me in USPSA or IDPA because of stage design and mag capacity limits in Production.

[theblacknight]

That's what I meant by my post.
Enforcing it would be easy the first match, just DQ everybody.
Next match... 90% of the shooters wouldn't come back, so enforcement would be even easier.
Third match... "hey where'd all the shooters go?", I guess we can pack up and go home early today.

or you can do like most people and start up your own federation that no one cares about and be king of the small pound.

[JHC]

As I said, if I know I am shooting something within next 2 seconds, I find it hard to prioritize safetying of my gun in the first 0.25 second and then "unsafe" it one second later.
.

Which is similar to the hypothetical you framed for Mike C about having to shoot four or so enemy combatants from four different positions which required some relatively short distance to cross to get to the next firing point.

It all sounds like the Soldier did a "walk through" to plan a fight. That seems where this all breaks down. There is no known shot to kill a guy 2 seconds from now unless maybe for a sniper. In two seconds you may not be able to make the shot because of a living breathing "no shoot" in the way.

The match stage oriented hypotheticals reveal nothing about why sights on/safe off/sights off/safe on is a hard and fast doctrine among folks with mere dozens to hundreds of gunfights worth of experience. We think our fight will be like that, but those with so many fights say what you think your fight is, is not.

[YVK]

I wouldn't dispute that. This is the reason why I mentioned a factor of certainty that is always present in games and, the way I understand it, rarely present in fights.

Josh, I can see decocking or going on safe during very long distance movements. I also think that multigun may promote that more since I believe they require gun on safe before you can put it down.

[txdpd]

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas-police/2017/11/11/dallas-swat-officer-accidentally-shoots-leg-serving-warrant


Assistant Chief of Police Gary Tittle said the officer's rifle sling got caught on something in the apartment, and when he tried to pull it free, the rifle discharged into his calf.

[Redhat]

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas-police/2017/11/11/dallas-swat-officer-accidentally-shoots-leg-serving-warrant

Interesting explanation...which COULD mean, with the exception of a mechanical malfunction, the Safety was off.

Sorry to hear this happened and hope the officer will be okay.

[JRB]

Here's a wildcard regarding good on-safe practices and AR variant usages.

I'm cross-dominant (left eyed, right handed) and as a Soldier, I have exactly zero leeway for modifying my issued rifle. I generally prefer to shoot rifles left-handed.

This leaves me with a 'righty only' selector lever. I've gotten very good at manipulating the selector lever with the knuckle of my left hand, but I am somewhat faster going off-safe than on-safe.

Simply put, I cannot cleanly, consistently, or reliably manipulate the selector without a significant and specific movement breaks my shooting grip on the weapon and slows my weapon use. I have tried with my privately owned AR's extensively (through 20+ years of ownership) and to get it 100% of the time in gloves or bare handed, it takes me a hiccup's worth of time and and I have to significantly change my grip on the pistol grip of the weapon.

For this reason, I've developed a slightly less stringent safety-on habit. This is non ideal. Obviously, I've long practiced a hard index of the trigger finger and muzzle awareness is literally life. I can confidently say that I'm as safe as one can be in this situation.
Reloads, being similarly backwards, are not delayed any more so by going on-safe before a reload. But generally speaking, so long as my weapon is shouldered/high-ready in a 'hot' environment after targets are sighted, it'll be off safe. If it breaks off of my shoulder, it's on safe. Not perfect, and needing improvement.

So, two questions for those who might know:

First, anyone that has (or knows where to find) any Army policy or precedent that condones or encourages the purchase of a lefty-friendly selector lever for install on my issued weapon, that would be awesome. As it is, my commander is sympathetic but he was shot down by our Battalion Commander on any changes to issued weapons. An NSN for an ambi selector would be awesome, as privately owned components are a strict no-go in my unit and I don't want to risk running afoul of constructive possession of an NFA item by buying a M4/M16 friendly ambi selector.

Second, any advice on good techniques for a left-handed user manipulating a righty-style safety on an AR smoothly and effortlessly enough to adopt the 'sight picture, off-safe' style of safety usage, I'm all ears (or eyes, as it were).

[PNWTO]

First, anyone that has (or knows where to find) any Army policy or precedent that condones or encourages the purchase of a lefty-friendly selector lever for install on my issued weapon, that would be awesome. As it is, my commander is sympathetic but he was shot down by our Battalion Commander on any changes to issued weapons. An NSN for an ambi selector would be awesome, as privately owned components are a strict no-go in my unit and I don't want to risk running afoul of constructive possession of an NFA item by buying a M4/M16 friendly ambi selector.

NSN 1005015369963 if my 2015 guide is to be believed.

Second, any advice on good techniques for a left-handed user manipulating a righty-style safety on an AR smoothly and effortlessly enough to adopt the 'sight picture, off-safe' style of safety usage, I'm all ears (or eyes, as it were).

While not a lefty, I am cross-dominant and did occasionally shoot southpaw. I had no issue riding my hand up a bit prior to presentation and using my knuckle to disengage the safety. I am mostly likely wording this terribly. To engage the safety I simply used my trigger finger to "pull" the selector back/up.

[apg06]

Here's a wildcard regarding good on-safe practices and AR variant usages.

I'm cross-dominant (left eyed, right handed) and as a Soldier, I have exactly zero leeway for modifying my issued rifle. I generally prefer to shoot rifles left-handed.

This leaves me with a 'righty only' selector lever. I've gotten very good at manipulating the selector lever with the knuckle of my left hand, but I am somewhat faster going off-safe than on-safe.

Simply put, I cannot cleanly, consistently, or reliably manipulate the selector without a significant and specific movement breaks my shooting grip on the weapon and slows my weapon use. I have tried with my privately owned AR's extensively (through 20+ years of ownership) and to get it 100% of the time in gloves or bare handed, it takes me a hiccup's worth of time and and I have to significantly change my grip on the pistol grip of the weapon.

For this reason, I've developed a slightly less stringent safety-on habit. This is non ideal. Obviously, I've long practiced a hard index of the trigger finger and muzzle awareness is literally life. I can confidently say that I'm as safe as one can be in this situation.
Reloads, being similarly backwards, are not delayed any more so by going on-safe before a reload. But generally speaking, so long as my weapon is shouldered/high-ready in a 'hot' environment after targets are sighted, it'll be off safe. If it breaks off of my shoulder, it's on safe. Not perfect, and needing improvement.

So, two questions for those who might know:

First, anyone that has (or knows where to find) any Army policy or precedent that condones or encourages the purchase of a lefty-friendly selector lever for install on my issued weapon, that would be awesome. As it is, my commander is sympathetic but he was shot down by our Battalion Commander on any changes to issued weapons. An NSN for an ambi selector would be awesome, as privately owned components are a strict no-go in my unit and I don't want to risk running afoul of constructive possession of an NFA item by buying a M4/M16 friendly ambi selector.

Second, any advice on good techniques for a left-handed user manipulating a righty-style safety on an AR smoothly and effortlessly enough to adopt the 'sight picture, off-safe' style of safety usage, I'm all ears (or eyes, as it were).I've got a different NSN for the ambi selector: NSN 1005-01-585-6042. Not sure if they are interchangeable, but my understanding is the part can be ordered and swapped out by your 91F.

[BN]

I generally prefer to shoot rifles left-handed.

Second, any advice on good techniques for a left-handed user manipulating a righty-style safety on an AR smoothly and effortlessly enough to adopt the 'sight picture, off-safe' style of safety usage, I'm all ears (or eyes, as it were).

I think Larry Vickers shoots rifle left handed. Maybe check some of his videos.

[GJM]

Data from the two day USPSA match unattended this weeked. There were about 180 shooters, 35 of them in PCC, and three DQ’s total. Two DQ’s were PCC shooters, both during reloading, when they hit the trigger instead of the mag release when releasing the magazine. Both experienced shooters, one a M in PCC and other divisions. Obviously neither had the safety on.