Duty rifle purchasing help

[Lyonsgrid]

I’m looking for advice on procurement of approximately 25 new SBR’s for my unit. I’ve gotten the green light to begin the process but there is no decent guidance or process in place. Basically, the decisions makers know we need/want new rifles and they are willing to purchase. The rest has been left up to me and I’m not up to speed on where to begin.

We just went through this process for pistols within the last year. SIG was the winner mostly because they were willing to offer up a couple demo P320’s for us to T&E and that’s all it took. Glock and HK reps didn’t answer the bell for the modest 50 unit request.

I’ve been told to try to acquire rifles for T&E. For guys and gals that have been down this road before, any advise on where to begin? Should I just contact the manufacture LE sales reps for our area or are there companies set up to handle the process. We will be trading our current AR’s.

My unit does entry/warrant duty exclusively and we need/want SBR’s in 5.56. Factory complete guns only, not going to approve anything else. We will only equip them with slings, WML’s and Eotech XPS2’s

My two choices so far:

Colt LE6946CQB 10.3”
HK 416 10.4”

Any advice is welcome and needed. This procurement process is not my area of expertise but I’ve volunteered to take it on knowing that if I don’t, it won’t get done any time soon. Please PM me if you don't want to reply in an open thread. Thanks.

20858

Every thread needs a pic...

[HCM]

Are you planning to run suppressors on those 10" guns ? You should be.

If you are not running them surpresssd I would look at 11.5" or 12.5" DI guns.

[Lyonsgrid]

Are you planning to run suppressors on those 10" guns ? You should be.

If you are not running them surpresssd I would look at 11.5" or 12.5" DI guns.

Not at this point due to funding.

[Sigfan26]

Talk to Stacy or Adam at Primary Weapons Systems for some demo models if you want piston. They are very, very impressive rifles.


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[Screwball]

You have any Colt or H&K L/E contacts?

Colt’s corporate number is 860-236-6311. H&K’s commercial and L/E sales number is 706-568-1906. Worth a shot to ask for a local representative to discuss procurement/testing.

Also, have you considered the SCW0921?

[DpdG]

I have no relevant experience with suppressors, so I'll leave those to someone else. My neighboring regional team issues 16" HK416 with cans and the guys report the guns work very well, but being piston guns, are quite front heavy. Also, after putting cans on the guns require much more frequent cleaning. I'm issued a Colt M16A2 Commando (11.5") which has been very reliable despite 18 years of continuous service without any preventative maintenance. Parts have only been replaced when broken. We have 16" SIG M400's for patrol, and other agencies on my regional SWAT team have 11.5" M400s. Decent guns, but the 11.5" M400 seem to require a LOT more lube than my Commando.

For DI, I think 11.5" is about as short as I'd like to go. Even at 11.5", they are VERY loud and depending on the ammo, velocity may drop below the projectile's design window for optimized terminal performance. In addition, some folks much more knowledgeable have said 11.5" is about as short as the carbine gas system can accommodate without becoming somewhat temperamental. I'm already at the edge of my lane, so I would not care to speculate the reasoning why.

Is the EoTech requirement an agency one? They seem to have fallen out of favor lately, for a multitude of reasons.

[Gadfly]

We issue Colt M4 (3rnd burst) in 11.5" length. (Can't recall the specific number, but the semi auto version is the 6933). The burst is pretty useless on a police gun. I would prefer a semi only lower with a better trigger.

That being said, our guys don't clean them nearly enough, and they get abused. And yet, they run well in spite of it.

I am confident that colt has any kinks worked out of their 11.5" guns. Just my .02 opinion.


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[Lyonsgrid]

I have no relevant experience with suppressors, so I'll leave those to someone else. My neighboring regional team issues 16" HK416 with cans and the guys report the guns work very well, but being piston guns, are quite front heavy. Also, after putting cans on the guns require much more frequent cleaning. I'm issued a Colt M16A2 Commando (11.5") which has been very reliable despite 18 years of continuous service without any preventative maintenance. Parts have only been replaced when broken. We have 16" SIG M400's for patrol, and other agencies on my regional SWAT team have 11.5" M400s. Decent guns, but the 11.5" M400 seem to require a LOT more lube than my Commando.

For DI, I think 11.5" is about as short as I'd like to go. Even at 11.5", they are VERY loud and depending on the ammo, velocity may drop below the projectile's design window for optimized terminal performance. In addition, some folks much more knowledgeable have said 11.5" is about as short as the carbine gas system can accommodate without becoming somewhat temperamental. I'm already at the edge of my lane, so I would not care to speculate the reasoning why.

Is the EoTech requirement an agency one? They seem to have fallen out of favor lately, for a multitude of reasons.

Thanks for the input. I'll take note of the 11.5" vs 10.3" DI issues. We are issued the EoTech's and most, including me like them a lot and they have given us great service.

[Odin Bravo One]

Not at this point due to funding.

If funding is an issue, HK416 wouldn't be on my list.

[Jason M]

The Colt 6933 sounds like it would do what you are looking for with all the support and parts availability.

[Lyonsgrid]

The Colt 6933 sounds like it would do what you are looking for with all the support and parts availability.

Yeah I think you're right. It's likely the best bang for the buck out there for what we want. I just need to get one or two for T&E so the bean counters can handle one and get the warm and fuzzies.

[Jason M]

Yeah I think you're right. It's likely the best bang for the buck out there for what we want. I just need to get one or two for T&E so the bean counters can handle one and get the warm and fuzzies.

They are LOUD! If your job won't shell out for cans, you will need them to get active ear pro like Sordins or Comtacs for everyone. Thread mount cans from Gemtech are relatively cheap. The cost of the 6933 and a can would likely be less than a shorty HK 416 alone.

[HCM]

Thanks for the input. I'll take note of the 11.5" vs 10.3" DI issues. We are issued the EoTech's and most, including me like them a lot and they have given us great service.

1) Talk to PF member Wayne Dobbs. He is one of Colt's armorer school instructors and a wealth of knowledge.

2) Re DI guns- Until the MK 18 was spec'ed out by the Navy Colt refused to make guns shorter than 11.5". They run. As Gadfly noted both our agency and the FBI issue 11.5" DI Colt M4's. They also run.

3) You are selecting guns for warrant service and entries. Shorter barrels and piston guns really only make sense when running suppressed. 10" and shorter guns generate significant blast and overpressure when fired indoors. You and your team mates may wear ear pro but what about 3rd parties present? If you are not going to run them with suppressors why buy 10" guns? If budget is an issue, why pay more for piston guns ?

[Lyonsgrid]

1) Talk to PF member Wayne Dobbs. He is one of Colt's armorer school instructors and a wealth of knowledge.

2) Re DI guns- Until the MK 18 was spec'ed out by the Navy Colt refused to make guns shorter than 11.5". They run. As Gadfly noted both our agency and the FBI issue 11.5" DI Colt M4's. They also run.

3) You are selecting guns for warrant service and entries. Shorter barrels and piston guns really only make sense when running suppressed. 10" and shorter guns generate significant blast and overpressure when fired indoors. You and your team mates may wear ear pro but what about 3rd parties present? If you are not going to run them with suppressors why buy 10" guns? If budget is an issue, why pay more for piston guns ?

Believe me, I know the huge benefits of a suppressed gun. I'm still issued an MP5SD and love it but the 5.56 guns are whats being pushed and up for replacement. If I can get the cans approved that would be great. Fact is we need new rifles and SBR's are more suited for what we do.

[HCM]

Believe me, I know the huge benefits of a suppressed gun. I'm still issued an MP5SD and love it but the 5.56 guns are whats being pushed and up for replacement. If I can get the cans approved that would be great. Fact is we need new rifles and SBR's are more suited for what we do.

Surpressed is nice to have but if budget is an issue, quality 11.5" or 12.5" DI guns would be the best place to start.

Colt, BCM, SIONICS and Sons of Liberty all make vetted 11.5" and 12.5" guns.

I have no personal experience with them, but Barnes Precision Machine is in NC and comes highly recommended. Might be worth a call.

[Default.mp3]

Might be worth getting in touch with Jack Leuba, AKA Failure2Stop, and see if KAC has anything to offer? The SR-16 CQB Mod 2 is suppose to be pretty sweet.

[tango-papa]

Sionics Weapon Systems make an excellent rifle.

They also have an 11" barrel with a Reduced Gas Port that runs with/without a suppressor with MilSpec ammo.

http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/

tp

[HCM]

Might be worth getting in touch with Jack Leuba, AKA Failure2Stop, and see if KAC has anything to offer? The SR-16 CQB Mod 2 is suppose to be pretty sweet.

Great guns. USSS issues 11.5" KAC 16's. A bit pricey though, even at Agency price.

[Lon]

My SWAT team uses a mixture of Colt 6933s and the Bravo Company equivalent version. Both run great and we’re about the same price IIRC.

[KeeFus]

If youre still in NC contact Barnes Precision Machine in Apex. Hes getting a lot of business locally...SHP RRT is running his 11 inch uppers now and they swear by them. They also have the option for suppressors. FWIW, they are putting thousands of rounds through them with no issues.

[Failure2Stop]

Might be worth getting in touch with Jack Leuba, AKA Failure2Stop, and see if KAC has anything to offer? The SR-16 CQB Mod 2 is suppose to be pretty sweet.

Thanks for the heads up amigo.

PM sent to OP.

[willie]

Sometimes during agency purchasing, input from uninformed higher ranking persons influences selection. Texas issues Bushmasters to its various l.e. groups. Some municipal p.d.'s followed their lead. I hope that the op's process will be free of this type interference where the misinformed have clout.

[SeriousStudent]

Sionics Weapon Systems make an excellent rifle.

They also have an 11" barrel with a Reduced Gas Port that runs with/without a suppressor with MilSpec ammo.

http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/

tp

I have one of these. It runs like the badass machine that it is, with an AAC M4-2000 can. Bolt locks back on the last round when suppressed or unsuppressed.

I'd be very happy with an 11.5" BCM, Colt, KAC, or Sionics SBR.

[HCM]

Sometimes during agency purchasing, input from uninformed higher ranking persons influences selection. Texas issues Bushmasters to its various l.e. groups. Some municipal p.d.'s followed their lead. I hope that the op's process will be free of this type interference where the misinformed have clout.

The Texas DPS Bushmasters, like the DOJ contract RRA's are made to the proper TDP standard unlike their regular production guns. Many local TX agencies buy guns and ammo off the state contract for financial reasons or because they rely on the State's testing to select decent quality gear because lack the resources to conduct proper testing. There are also some who buy what DPS buys because the Sheriff, Captain, Chief etc is former DPS but there is certainly worse gear being purchased for worse reasons.

BTW TX DPS is somewhere in the process of testing and selecting new rifles.

[TCB]

I just did a vehicle tactics class and brought both a 11.5” & a 14.5” Rifle...the 14.5” was fine but the 11.5” excelled in and around cars. My Agency issues 14.5” M-4A1’s to line Agents but I’ve seen a few of the short uppers we are supposed to be converteing to (11.5” BCM w what looked like 9 or 10” MMR forearms, Troy flip up sights), for a work gun I really can’t think of a better choice. 11.5” seems to be the sweet spot for unsuppressed or suppressed rifles, they handle very well and I think retain enough muzzle velocity for most domestic LE, I’ve made hits out to 300 yards with mine on USPSA size steel targets without any hold over. As for brand? Colt or BCM from my experience...either company can make a lemon but their CS is great and they don’t really stray from the TDP.

[willie]

HCM, thanks for clarifying about Texas Bushmasters being made to TDP standards. Does this fact mean that Bushmaster paid royalties to Colt for permission to use their data package?

With AR discussions at this level, I'm not qualified to comment beyond saying that Colt's production offerings should meet needs of most l.e. agencies. That's an opinion based on library type study and not experience. I'll be honest and say that my formal AR training was poor, and since then I've burned up a lot of ammo shooting rocks, stumps, and dirt clods. Hence I'll cease writing.

[ASH556]

If suppressors are in the plans now or later, I would want something other than a 6933 due to its lightweight barrel profile. Check with Sionics. I've taken their armorer class twice now (every 3 years to keep the cert current) and spoken extensively with the owner, Josh. These guys know what they're talking about and are passionate about getting quality equipment in the hands of LEO's at good prices.

As far as 10.3/5 vs 11.5, a correctly-gased 10.3/5" gun will run reliably suppressed and un-suppressed. The 0.070 crane-spec'd gas port is the key. My personal gun is built on a Colt SOCOM barrel cut to 10.3 and ported at .070. The heavier barrel profile mitigates flex/POI shift and also handles heat better.

[HCM]

HCM, thanks for clarifying about Texas Bushmasters being made to TDP standards. Does this fact mean that Bushmaster paid royalties to Colt for permission to use their data package?

With AR discussions at this level, I'm not qualified to comment beyond saying that Colt's production offerings should meet needs of most l.e. agencies. That's an opinion based on library type study and not experience. I'll be honest and say that my formal AR training was poor, and since then I've burned up a lot of ammo shooting rocks, stumps, and dirt clods. Hence I'll cease writing.


No idea on royalties but the TX BM's were made to the specs of the TX state contract which were taken directly from the TDP. Same for the RRA guns made to the FBI spec, which was also derived from the TDP. I believe RRA calls theirs the Government model.

This is where Colt has the edge for an individual purchase. The issue is the BM or RRA rifle you buy at retail is not built to the same standard as their govt contract rifles. Like buying a Walmart Remington 870 express vs buying an 870 Police where as standard Colts (6920, 6720 etc) are all built to the same standard and have the same QC checks.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I’m looking for advice on procurement of approximately 25 new SBR’s for my unit. I’ve gotten the green light to begin the process but there is no decent guidance or process in place. Basically, the decisions makers know we need/want new rifles and they are willing to purchase. The rest has been left up to me and I’m not up to speed on where to begin.

We just went through this process for pistols within the last year. SIG was the winner mostly because they were willing to offer up a couple demo P320’s for us to T&E and that’s all it took. Glock and HK reps didn’t answer the bell for the modest 50 unit request.

I’ve been told to try to acquire rifles for T&E. For guys and gals that have been down this road before, any advise on where to begin? Should I just contact the manufacture LE sales reps for our area or are there companies set up to handle the process. We will be trading our current AR’s.

My unit does entry/warrant duty exclusively and we need/want SBR’s in 5.56. Factory complete guns only, not going to approve anything else. We will only equip them with slings, WML’s and Eotech XPS2’s

My two choices so far:

Colt LE6946CQB 10.3”
HK 416 10.4”

Any advice is welcome and needed. This procurement process is not my area of expertise but I’ve volunteered to take it on knowing that if I don’t, it won’t get done any time soon. Please PM me if you don't want to reply in an open thread. Thanks.

20858

Every thread needs a pic...

PM me for your Colt matters...

[Grizzly21]

If youre still in NC contact Barnes Precision Machine in Apex. Hes getting a lot of business locally...SHP RRT is running his 11 inch uppers now and they swear by them. They also have the option for suppressors. FWIW, they are putting thousands of rounds through them with no issues.

I just recently tested several Barnes M4 rifles with various barrel lengths in 5.56 and 7.62(7.5" to 20" barrels) and all performed flawlessly. A local agency in NC is looking at new SBRs for their SWAT team and the 11.5" Barnes rifle was at the top of the list. I have a personal Barnes 16" barrel M4 and the gun works flawlessly and is very accurate.

[psalms144.1]

As many have stated, too short is too short. My experience with the Mk18s (10.5") was less than exceptional - they required a lot more maintenance and a lot more lube than a standard M4. My carbine would barely run through a 200-round range session without reliability issues - and had to be cleaned spotlessly between sessions.

Contrarily, our agency-issued M4s are the definition of abused and neglected, yet I've yet to see one hiccup that wasn't directly related to ammunition.

Unfortunately, I have limited experience with the "tween" sizes - 11.5 etc...

ETA: I whole-heartedly agree that the shorter carbines are significantly easier to maneuver in/around vehicles and in tight quarters (such as indoors), I just don't know that the juice is worth the squeeze for a general patrol rifle. I think an M4 pattern 14.5 or 16" semi-auto makes perfect sense as a general issue should weapon; shorter barrels probably only needed for specialty teams.

And unless I were funded directly out of President Trump's personal accounts, I wouldn't even LOOK at HK rifles. I'd take a Colt any day; there are PLENTY of "civilian" 16" carbines that will do EVERYTHING a patrol rifle needs to do...

[stinx]

Arcadia California issues Colt commands 11.5 or they used to. I am told Dean Caputo has a lot of knowledge on this platform.

[UNM1136]

If funding is an issue, HK416 wouldn't be on my list.

This...

[jandbj]

Where Sig previously hooked you up on the demo 320's, you should check with them on a T&E SBR. Alternatively, find a local SOT that has what you want and get a demo gun or two from him.

[HCM]

Where Sig previously hooked you up on the demo 320's, you should check with them on a T&E SBR. Alternatively, find a local SOT that has what you want and get a demo gun or two from him.

If you really want a piston gun the SIG 516 is worth a look.

[Lyonsgrid]

PM me for your Colt matters...

Thanks for your help.

I got some more direction from the command today in regards to budget. I've also received some support from Colt and we're trying to secure a T&E of a few models that should fill our mission.

20990

[gskip]

I don't know if you are still looking for info, but my department uses HK416 (both 14.5 and 10.5s). We don't like them. I'm pretty sure we all would choose a 11.5 BCM or a Colt 10.5 over it. They are just too heavy and beat the shiz out of themselves. The biggest problem we are having is that we need new parts and can't get them. It's just not worth it.

[Beat Trash]

I was not aware of the Colt LE6933-EPR. But a 6933 with a Centurion M-Lok rail would be an excellent choice for what you are looking for.

Let us know how the T&E goes.

[Lyonsgrid]

Colt T&E today with a few different models. The 6933 EPR is a very nice rifle. Lots of features for the price. It received the highest marks from our guys. Big thanks to Wayne Dobbs for help in this process. Hope to finalize things soon. More to come.

21313

[Failure2Stop]

Colt T&E today with a few different models. The 6933 EPR is a very nice rifle. Lots of features for the price. It received the highest marks from our guys. Big thanks to Wayne Dobbs for help in this process. Hope to finalize things soon. More to come.
21313

Never got an email from you, but good luck with your procurement.