Is a retention holster a requirement for concealed carry?

[Cypher]

I couldn't come up with a better word but I'm curious if anyone uses a retention holster when concealing. What's the general consensus?

ETA This is where the question came from. I'm not asking anybody to disagree with Massad ayoob but this video is the only place that I've heard this so I thought I'd throw it out and ask here

https://youtu.be/HlJUc8iBcEA

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Not necessary. Keep the gun concealed. Be nice until it’s time to not be nice anymore.


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[41magfan]

This can be a matter of semantics, but I want ALL my holsters (even pocket holsters) have some level of retention. By that I mean the retention on my concealed carry holsters is "passive" (no snaps, locks or releases that I must manipulate to draw the gun) but they retain the pistol when the holster is turned upside down.

When I was a LEO, some of my concealed carry rigs had "active" retention features, but I personally find it unnecessary as a civilian. YMMV

[Gray222]

Concealment is a level of retention...

[Cypher]

So I'm guessing you're not watching the video. Because what they're talking about in the video I would say level 1 retention holster. I currently use a Galco open top leather holster. It seems to work fine I've never been in a fight for my handgun but I want to make sure that I'm not missing something stupid

[Odin Bravo One]

If the majority of respected trainers and industry experts believed it was a requirement, it would be common, and you'd see a plethora of retention concealment holsters on the market. Your holster is but one piece of the puzzle when it comes to carrying a gun. Only you can decide what you need, and not losing your gun is a consideration in the decision making process. There are other ways to avoid this problem.

[FNFAN]

For field and concealed carry use you’re probably okay with a holster that will retain the weapon if turned upside down and vigorously shaken. That may be enough retention to keep the weapon from coming out of the holster if it snags on a seatbelt or a branch or if you take a spill. In a physical confrontation I would want to make sure that I’m not going to lose control of the weapon and thereby cause a needless escalation with me being the unarmed party facing my own weapon. My personal decision is not to use holsters that don’t have an active retention feature either a thumb break on IWB holsters or the wonderful ALS Safariland on OWB holsters. With proper training there is minimal hindrance to your draw stroke and I think that taking steps to see that your weapon is secure is both reasonable and prudent.

Just my .02

[Cypher]

If the majority of respected trainers and industry experts believed it was a requirement, it would be common, and you'd see a plethora of retention concealment holsters on the market. Your holster is but one piece of the puzzle when it comes to carrying a gun. Only you can decide what you need, and not losing your gun is a consideration in the decision making process. There are other ways to avoid this problem.

That's one of the things I considered. I haven't heard other people suggesting a retention holster for concealment and there doesn't seem to be a large market for it. That said to me the mere fact that two recognized SMEs suggested it at least makes it worthy of further inquiry. The fact that none of you are saying "Yes this is exactly what I do." Is causing me to reconsider and decide I probably will not be pursuing this further.

Thanks

[Sherman A. House DDS]

The last time I trained with Mas he had an open top concealment holster on. I doubt he is using a Serpa holster these days. The video is old (it says LFI...NOT MAG). I’m sure his SME role requires him to use different holsters regularly.

I also see where he’s coming from, but a large part of the rationale he uses is coming from the perspective of the off duty or plain clothes policeman. The argument about the aggressor in a case of targeted violence against you MIGHT know where your gun is and attempt a disarm is plausible, but I’d rather (personally) have a software solution to that, as opposed to putting all of my eggs in one basket with a holster’s security device. And I think Mas would agree. With all that said, I DO use the Safariland ALS and GLS paddle rigs when I can rock a jacket.

I normally carry in a JM AIWB holster, or in a DSG clip when I’m in gym clothes. Both holsters are open top with no other security features (tension screws), but they’re near my centerline and in a good position to be defended.


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[blues]

Speaking for myself, my only concern is that there is sufficient retention to keep the firearm in the holster under normal activities and prevent the gun from falling out if turned upside down and shaken.

I learned from personal experience that my DSG holster was more than adequate to secure and protect my Glock when I took a spill on a rough gravel road while sprinting after my dog. The gun was not dislodged nor scratched though I tore up my hands and had abrasions on my torso.

That level of retention gets the (black and) blues seal of approval.

[Odin Bravo One]

The issue with taking an SME's suggestion from an article, or Internet forum, or video clip is that they are rarely framed in the appropriate context, with an in depth explanation as to how he/she arrived at the "why" they think this is a good idea. A guy like Ayoob has changed an evolved his opinions on these things over time, and it is important to understand the background on his opinions to apply it properly to our individual situations.

[GJM]

Last I checked, level 2 or greater retention and concealment were mutually exclusive. The Safariland IWB/AIWB GLS gets close but nobody would confuse it with a JM.

[Gio]

I consider true concealment to be equivalent (or even better, depending on the situation) to one level of active retention such as a level 2 holster like a thumb break or ALS. If you could get complete concealment of a level 2 holster it would definitely be more secure, but most level 2 mechanisms significantly detract from concealment as well as add complexity to a draw where you're already having to deal with reliably clearing a garment.

[nalesq]

My experiences at ECQC, which is one of the best weapon retention testing labs available and relevant to civilians, did not lead me to conclude that a retention holster was worthwhile for concealed carry. Instead, for retention purposes, it did lead me to greatly prefer AIWB, and it also gave me a marginal preference for leather instead of Kydex for such a holster.


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[Cypher]

Last I checked, level 2 or greater retention and concealment were mutually exclusive. The Safariland IWB/AIWB GLS gets close but nobody would confuse it with a JM.

What is a JM

[blues]

What is a JM

JM Custom Kydex (http://www.jmcustomkydex.com/)

[Cypher]

JM Custom Kydex (http://www.jmcustomkydex.com/)

Thank you.

[OnionsAndDragons]

My experiences at ECQC, which is one of the best weapon retention testing labs available and relevant to civilians, did not lead me to conclude that a retention holster was worthwhile for concealed carry. Instead, for retention purposes, it did lead me to greatly prefer AIWB, and it also gave me a marginal preference for leather instead of Kydex for such a holster.


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This is an excellent summary of my thoughts here, too.

I would say that if you carry strong side and carry a Glock, that it is worth looking at the leather pancake version of the safariland GLS holster. IF it works for your carry style, there isn't much to lose for that added layer of retention.

I'm fine with a good leather or kydex IWB. If I were in an occupation where I was quite likely to have to get hands on with people that knew I was packing, I would give more consideration to active retention holsters.

[Cypher]

This is an excellent summary of my thoughts here, too.

I would say that if you carry strong side and carry a Glock, that it is worth looking at the leather pancake version of the safariland GLS holster. IF it works for your carry style, there isn't much to lose for that added layer of retention.

I'm fine with a good leather or kydex IWB. If I were in an occupation where I was quite likely to have to get hands on with people that knew I was packing, I would give more consideration to active retention holsters.

I currently use a Galco Combat Master holster.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I currently use a Galco Combat Master holster.

If I recall, that holster does not have a reinforced mouth/opening. That is something to keep an eye on. As the holster wears over time, it can lose some rigidity and become a trigger fouling hazard.

Not to say don't rock on with the holster. Just be aware that when it starts to feel a little old and soft, it's time to start looking for a new holster.

I would also say that if you are liking that style, it is worth checking to see if Safariland makes a GLS model 537 holster for your gun.

[PFranklin]

Holsters for carrying concealed - for civilian and off-duty cops (unless dictated by policy) - should serve one main purpose: keep the trigger guard covered. The holster should offer enough passive retention that your gun won't fall out if you reach down to tie a shoe. That said, its not a bad idea to learn to protect your gun from being taken away and carry a nice CQB blade on support side if attacked on strong side and can't get to your pistol.

[orionz06]

For a large majority of us retention is a technique, not a device.


I'd also consider that Mas may be quite cautious on video given his frequency in court as an expert witness. The same goes for lots of folks. That doesn't mean bend their words to suit your preferences but perhaps hold back on the pitchforks and reach out. I've not had a single SME refuse clarification on things like this, ever, customer or not.

[JTQ]

I believe the study he comments about, was in regards to LE in plain clothes or off duty. I suspect they are in different situations than the typical concealed carrier.

Here are a couple of other data points...

High Noon Holsters at FAQ #25 https://www.highnoonholsters.com/faqs


We like open top holsters better than thumbreaks. They are quicker on the draw and quicker to reholster. The straps on the thumbreak always seem to get in the way on the redraw. Take note here, the danger of an unintended discharge when a strap gets caught in the trigger guard is a real one, and by no means limited to a certain gun. Any weapon can have an unintended discharge if you are not careful.

It is also harder to practice drawing with a thumbreak holster than an open top. People that have open tops seem to practice more, because it is a lot easier. For most people that have a concealed carry permit, open top is the way to go. It is just simpler, nothing to worry about except drawing. Most people are not going in harm's way, you are avoiding it, and so, a thumbreak holster is not needed. Law enforcement is a different story. Some departments mandate a thumbreak off duty holster. However, it can be difficult to try and hand cuff someone if you cannot reholster.

A video from the late Paul Gomez on choosing concealed carry gear. He preferred leather for holsters, though open top models, over kydex for their retention advantage. He also preferred kydex for mag pouches because he can usually adjust the tension for greater security.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF7VbYh9Qqk

[gtae07]

We like open top holsters better than thumbreaks. They are quicker on the draw and quicker to reholster.

This got me wondering... I have occasionally seen emphasis on being able to reholster quickly and without looking as an important skill for the average civilian who carries. This was emphasized in a class I took earlier this year.

Now, I understand how that could be important for professionals (military/LE), and I definitely understand the benefits of holsters that don't collapse after drawing... but I can't think of a situation where someone like me would need to reholster fast and without even a glance at the holster. If I'm in such a high threat situation that I had to draw it "for real" in the first place, I won't be reholstering until it's over and the threat is gone, and by then I may well need my eyes and other hand due to the massive adrenaline dump. If I'm not in such a situation, safety and prudence says "use your eyes and take your time".

Am I missing something?

[LorenzoS]

If I recall, that holster does not have a reinforced mouth/opening. That is something to keep an eye on. As the holster wears over time, it can lose some rigidity and become a trigger fouling hazard. Not to say don't rock on with the holster. Just be aware that when it starts to feel a little old and soft, it's time to start looking for a new holster...

Here is an article on an incident with a worn leather holser causing an ND.
http://www.itstactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/leather-holster-ad-nd-1.jpg

[OnionsAndDragons]

This got me wondering... I have occasionally seen emphasis on being able to reholster quickly and without looking as an important skill for the average civilian who carries. This was emphasized in a class I took earlier this year.

Now, I understand how that could be important for professionals (military/LE), and I definitely understand the benefits of holsters that don't collapse after drawing... but I can't think of a situation where someone like me would need to reholster fast and without even a glance at the holster. If I'm in such a high threat situation that I had to draw it "for real" in the first place, I won't be reholstering until it's over and the threat is gone, and by then I may well need my eyes and other hand due to the massive adrenaline dump. If I'm not in such a situation, safety and prudence says "use your eyes and take your time".

Am I missing something?

I do not think you are.

There are lots of LE contexts where getting holstered quickly could be very important.

Most of the regular dude scenarios I can think of where that might be important are as a result of drawing the gun when one shouldn't have in the first place. This is a really good reason to carry intermediate force options like OC spray; it can help eliminate the thought of needing to go all the way to the gun in a grey-area situation.

[PFranklin]

This got me wondering... I have occasionally seen emphasis on being able to reholster quickly and without looking as an important skill for the average civilian who carries. This was emphasized in a class I took earlier this year.

Now, I understand how that could be important for professionals (military/LE), and I definitely understand the benefits of holsters that don't collapse after drawing... but I can't think of a situation where someone like me would need to reholster fast and without even a glance at the holster. If I'm in such a high threat situation that I had to draw it "for real" in the first place, I won't be reholstering until it's over and the threat is gone, and by then I may well need my eyes and other hand due to the massive adrenaline dump. If I'm not in such a situation, safety and prudence says "use your eyes and take your time".

Am I missing something?

You are not missing a thing. Re-holstering - especially in the age of striker-fired weapons - has proven to be one of the most dangerous things a police officer does; I venture to say this includes civilians. The next most dangerous thing may be drawing. There is a rule of thumb on the street: if you can't look at down at your holster when re-holstering, you're re-holstering too soon. (Translation: threat potential still exists.)

[Mas]

Sorry to be late to the party, but I thought I'd be in a position to add to the discussion.

The original poster included a link to a video I did a decade ago with Tom Gresham for Personal Defense TV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlJUc8iBcEA&feature=youtu.be ) If you listen carefully to the first few seconds of the 3-to-4-minute video, Tom had framed the question for the many new CCW folks who would predictably be in the audience for that particular show.

I concur with those here who feel that technique is the most important element of weapon retention. However, by definition, new concealed carriers are among the least likely to have been trained in those techniques. A retention holster is the quickest, easiest "early fix" to that element of carrying a loaded handgun in public.

I also concur with the belief that concealment is a level of retention (or perhaps, prevention), but it is only one level and, as explained in the video clip, it's a fallacy to believe that it will always eliminate the chance of a struggle for the Good Guy's gun.

Here at P-F, we have a density of members highly trained in combatives including disarming and weapon retention, which would be hard to match in any population. THAT video was not geared for THIS highly-trained audience.

I have long taught (and still teach) that weapon retention is a multi-layered discipline. Awareness first, of course...but none of us lives in condition red, and that's all the more true of the new CCW-er. Even those of us who have been extensively trained in retention may be unable to employ our techniques if we have been cold-cocked or our hands are tied up on Perp 1 when Perp 2 grabs at our holstered weapon from behind. I have known more than a couple of formidable fighters in blue who lost their guns. One dropped his guard for just a moment, and the suspect who caught him by surprise got his gun out of its holster; this cop's backup Detective Special was deployed in time to bring things to a satisfactory conclusion. I knew a rugged national champion shooter who was cold-cocked by a suspect who fractured his skull with a blunt object and dropped him unconscious from behind in the police station, and then went for the officer's S&W Model 29. Witnesses said the guy was tugging so hard on the .44 in his Bianchi B27 holster that he lifted the unconscious cop up off the floor, but the holster didn't yield the gun. Responding officers took care of business, and the officer lived to become chief of police in a good-sized city. One of the physically strongest cops I ever knew was walking on foot patrol when the lights went out for him. He woke up face down next to the bloody 2X4 that had put a big knot on the back of his head, and with an empty non-retention holster; the man who dropped and disarmed him just happened to choose not to murder him with his own gun. These and many other cases made me a believer in retention holsters.

[Cypher]

Here at P-F, we have a density of members highly trained in combatives including disarming and weapon retention, which would be hard to match in any population. THAT video was not geared for THIS highly-trained audience.

I'm not a new carrier but I don't consider myself to be anywhere near THIS highly-trained audience either. The retention training I've had working as an armed guard was remedial at best and assumed a level 2 retention holster.

I'm not sure I'm going to communicate this properly but I believe that one one the best things that ever happened to me was 4 separate instances where I ran into tweakers who knew I was armed and (I am absolutely convinced were setting me up to steal my gun) I learned that it was for real and I dealt with all 4 situations without having to shoot anyone. That said I need more training and I haven't totally given up on the retention holster Idea