For those who shoot RMR's I need help correcting an issue please.

[SC_Dave]

I hope this makes sense. On my natural draw stroke and extension my dot is always high, slightly out of the window. I don't have to fish around for it, it's high 95% of the time. I always have to lower the muzzle slightly which equates to lost time. I have tried every way I know of to correct it. Does anyone have any suggestion? I really would appreciate it.

G-19 Gen 3
RM06 RMR.

David

[voodoo_man]

You aren't unique with this issue.

One way is to drill the proper presentation with a dot to find it each time, this is going to take a long time.

The other way is to figure out a way to index shoot and find your dot during recoil. At the Modern Samurai Class, this varied between, using the rmr itself as an index, the backplate or the "horns" of the rmr to cut the target in half. Then when you are shooting it will be easier to find the dot in recoil as you probably have more reps of finding the dot in recoil than in presentation.

For me, I am not going to do reps of something which is counter to the way I shoot and carry a pistol, so the pistols I have RMRs on I find the front sight first, for a shot or two and then move onto the dot. I an nearly as fast with this method as just irons.

[SC_Dave]

You aren't unique with this issue.

One way is to drill the proper presentation with a dot to find it each time, this is going to take a long time.

The other way is to figure out a way to index shoot and find your dot during recoil. At the Modern Samurai Class, this varied between, using the rmr itself as an index, the backplate or the "horns" of the rmr to cut the target in half. Then when you are shooting it will be easier to find the dot in recoil as you probably have more reps of finding the dot in recoil than in presentation.

For me, I am not going to do reps of something which is counter to the way I shoot and carry a pistol, so the pistols I have RMRs on I find the front sight first, for a shot or two and then move onto the dot. I an nearly as fast with this method as just irons.

Thank you VooDoo. Is your front sight all black?

[voodoo_man]

Thank you VooDoo. Is your front sight all black?

Depends on the setup, all black is easier to find and cheaper. I tend to paint them neon green which has shown positive results.

[flyrodr]

I had (still have at times, if I haven't practiced with the RMR recently) the same problem. What I found I was doing was using the top of the RMR frame as an alignment point, and doing so I invariably had the same incorrect high sight picture (dot out of view at top of window, or almost so, and muzzle high). Since with irons I normally have them pretty well aligned upon presentation, I figured out my pea brain was overriding this normal presentation - - - perhaps because my eyes were wrongly "seeing" that shallow concave top of the RMR as the front aiming point. Whatever, I started trying to focus on the target and bring the RMR up, trying to center the window without seeing the top of the frame. Poorly described, but that helped me.

(I'll have to note that I'm terribly near-sighted, and with my normal eyeglasses, the front (iron) sight is very blurred, unless I tilt my head way back so I can see through the bottom of my progressive lenses. On the range, I wear glasses with the dominant eye lens set for front sight sharpness. Those glasses aren't good for normal wear. But my normal glasses work fine with the red dots, which is, for me at least, considerable motivation to go with a red dot.)

[UNK]

You aren't unique with this issue.

One way is to drill the proper presentation with a dot to find it each time, this is going to take a long time.

The other way is to figure out a way to index shoot and find your dot during recoil. At the Modern Samurai Class, this varied between, using the rmr itself as an index, the backplate or the "horns" of the rmr to cut the target in half. Then when you are shooting it will be easier to find the dot in recoil as you probably have more reps of finding the dot in recoil than in presentation.

For me, I am not going to do reps of something which is counter to the way I shoot and carry a pistol, so the pistols I have RMRs on I find the front sight first, for a shot or two and then move onto the dot. I an nearly as fast with this method as just irons.

Where do you prefer your rear sight. In front of or behind the RMR.

[Darth_Uno]

Practice practice practice. If you just throw the gun out there and try to find the dot you might hunt for it for a bit. Best thing to do is bring it up and find the sights like a "normal" presentation, and unless your red dot is way off from your irons then you red dot will be there. At that point you shift focus to the target and the dot will just be where it's supposed to be after you've found it. Fortunately on all my RMR'ed Glocks the dot has sat over the front sight for a 10yd POA/POI so it acts like a roided up front sight.

Like him or not, Suarez calls this the "visual handoff" which is a very appropriate way to describe it.

[pangloss]

If your red dot cowitnesses with your iron sights (and I presume it does), you might try turning the dot off for a while and working on your presentation using just the iron sights. Then turn the dot on for a couple of draws and then back off. Gradually increase the ratio of "RMR on" to "RMR off" draws. At first practicing mostly with the iron sight should ingrain the right muscle memory, and then later using the irons less frequently will give you feedback and hopefully reinforce the correct presentation. If I had problems finding the dot, this is what I'd do first.

[GJM]

The last month or two, relaxed and warmed up, I can routinely draw my Q5/DP Pro in the .50’s, and my pistol has no BUIS. Either pick a pistol that points more naturally for you or adjust your presentation so the gun is more level. No doubt, you are doing the same things with irons, but the dot just makes it obvious.

Initially finding the dot in recoil after a shot or two is the red dot equivalent of condition three carry.

[DocGKR]

Glocks tend to do that for me; M&P's not so much...

[voodoo_man]

Where do you prefer your rear sight. In front of or behind the RMR.

I've tried both and it doesn't matter to me, there is no difference in speed that I could see.

I'd recommend people stick with rear sights in original positions, unless it just doesn't work like in the case of the T1 you cannot have the rear sight in the back.

[Gio]

The other way is to figure out a way to index shoot and find your dot during recoil. At the Modern Samurai Class, this varied between, using the rmr itself as an index, the backplate or the "horns" of the rmr to cut the target in half. Then when you are shooting it will be easier to find the dot in recoil as you probably have more reps of finding the dot in recoil than in presentation.

I would not recommend doing this at all unless your target is about 3 yds away. Scott is a friend of mine, but this was either misinterpreted or it's misguided advice. Watch any GM level open shooter draw to a low percentage shot. None of them have backup irons on their guns but they somehow manage to draw, find the dot, and hit low percentage shots faster than anyone shooting irons. They do this because they've developed the muscle memory and index to bring the dot to their point of aim every time.

Example (open draw to a small plate): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLVuER5uPNk

[Artemas2]

Your presentation is off.

I am willing to bet that when you draw an iron sight gun your front sight is ever so slightly high in the notch, you either don't notice the issue or you are correcting it as the front sight comes into your peripheral. The RMR exaggerates the misalignment. Try drawing an iron gun and pay very close attention to your front sight (and be honest with yourself) to see if that is the case. I know it is with me.

I have found almost no time difference from the draw to first shot with irons vs RMR even when the dot is "gone" because I take the same amount of time to correct my iron alignment as i do finding the dot on shots that require it.

[GJM]

I would not recommend doing this at all unless your target is about 3 yds away. Scott is a friend of mine, but this was either misinterpreted or it's misguided advice. Watch any GM level open shooter draw to a low percentage shot. None of them have backup irons on their guns but they somehow manage to draw, find the dot, and hit low percentage shots faster than anyone shooting irons. They do this because they've developed the muscle memory and index to bring the dot to their point of aim every time.

Example (open draw to a small plate): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLVuER5uPNk

The vid of JJ is at Pro Gun in Nevada, where I shoot matches a few times a month throughout the winter, so I recognize those targets and arrays!

[TAZ]

Have the exact same issue when I go Ling between regular range time and dry fire. G19.4+RMR. The stupid Glock hump always points high for me. With irons there is always a reference visible. The RMR not so much. The cone where the dot can be seen is narrow so it’s easy to have to hunt.

Practice SLOW as molasses to memorize the feel and then rinse and repeat a gazillion times going ever so faster and faster...

Or find an optic ready gun that points better. I’m thinking if SW makes the MP 2.0 compact available with a CORE slide I’ll give it a whirl.

[GJM]

Have the exact same issue when I go Ling between regular range time and dry fire. G19.4+RMR. The stupid Glock hump always points high for me. With irons there is always a reference visible. The RMR not so much. The cone where the dot can be seen is narrow so it’s easy to have to hunt.

Practice SLOW as molasses to memorize the feel and then rinse and repeat a gazillion times going ever so faster and faster...

Or find an optic ready gun that points better. I’m thinking if SW makes the MP 2.0 compact available with a CORE slide I’ll give it a whirl.

Q5

[voodoo_man]

I would not recommend doing this at all unless your target is about 3 yds away. Scott is a friend of mine, but this was either misinterpreted or it's misguided advice. Watch any GM level open shooter draw to a low percentage shot. None of them have backup irons on their guns but they somehow manage to draw, find the dot, and hit low percentage shots faster than anyone shooting irons. They do this because they've developed the muscle memory and index to bring the dot to their point of aim every time.

Example (open draw to a small plate): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLVuER5uPNk

Right, please quote me where I stated to do this at 25 yards?

Obviously this is to be done in closer distances, that goes without saying.

I do not care much for any type of competition, so it does not matter to me what a GM or whatever has to say about something - I am talking about real world application.

Also, there is no such thing as muscle memory - Scott even said this in that class.

[Gio]

Right, please quote me where I stated to do this at 25 yards?

Obviously this is to be done in closer distances, that goes without saying.

I do not care much for any type of competition, so it does not matter to me what a GM or whatever has to say about something - I am talking about real world application.

Also, there is no such thing as muscle memory - Scott even said this in that class.

You didn't specify a distance, and this technique gets irresponsible a lot closer than 25 yds.

The real world application of picking up a dot at speed has been mastered by competition shooters, so I think it behooves someone looking for "real world application" of red dot use to study what the best shooters in the world do. I do both, and from my first hand experience, it's worth paying attention to what the competitive shooters are doing when it comes to shooting skill and technique because they're doing it a lot better.

Muscle memory defined: the ability to reproduce a particular movement without conscious thought, acquired as a result of frequent repetition of that movement. As it applies to this debate, muscle memory is developing the sub-conscious ability to index your red dot on the draw without having to consciously hunt for the dot. It's real.

[voodoo_man]

You didn't specify a distance, and this technique gets irresponsible a lot closer than 25 yds.

The real world application of picking up a dot at speed has been mastered by competition shooters, so I think it behooves someone looking for "real world application" of red dot use to study what the best shooters in the world do. I do both, and from my first hand experience, it's worth paying attention to what the competitive shooters are doing when it comes to shooting skill and technique because they're doing it a lot better.

Muscle memory defined: the ability to reproduce a particular movement without conscious thought, acquired as a result of frequent repetition of that movement. As it applies to this debate, muscle memory is developing the sub-conscious ability to index your red dot on the draw without having to consciously hunt for the dot. It's real.

You are right, I did not define a distance, but it did not stop you from attempting to make a statement of ill intent from my posts, using words like "misinterpreted" and "misguided." You were incorrect in those statements.

I will not rehash the competition vs real world debate, I made my stance clear, as many have so lets not waste each other's time.

Scott, your friend, has a different definition of "muscle memory" so you should probably figure that whole thing out before investing in a statement.

[GJM]

The only difference between a red dot and iron sights, is the red dot requires a more precise index, where iron sights allow you to get away with more imperfections in your index. In that way, the red dot is a fantastic training aid in improving index (and trigger control). Solving the dot presentation issue will improve your iron sight index as well.

[Gio]

You are right, I did not define a distance, but it did not stop you from attempting to make a statement of ill intent from my posts, using words like "misinterpreted" and "misguided." You were incorrect in those statements.

I will not rehash the competition vs real world debate, I made my stance clear, as many have so lets not waste each other's time.

Scott, your friend, has a different definition of "muscle memory" so you should probably figure that whole thing out before investing in a statement.

He is a friend, but if he gave that advice without any additional context, it's misguided. When you regurgitate that advice without any additional context, you are misguiding others. He's also wrong on muscle memory. Think about all the things you do without thinking about it: type, chew, operate the pedals on a vehicle, ride a bike, play a musical instrument, etc. indexing a pistol on the draw is no different. Do it enough that it becomes subconscious and you will do it better, faster, and more consistent.

[voodoo_man]

He is a friend, but if he gave that advice without any additional context, it's misguided. When you regurgitate that advice without any additional context, you are misguiding others. He's also wrong on muscle memory. Think about all the things you do without thinking about it: type, chew, operate the pedals on a vehicle, ride a bike, play a musical instrument, etc. indexing a pistol on the draw is no different. Do it enough that it becomes subconscious and you will do it better, faster, and more consistent.

Now you're just mixing things up for an unknown reason.

I've spoken about back plate shooting in the context of close range contact, you chose to make an issue of it, to what end? Only you seem to know that.

As I posted in my AAR of Scott's class (http://www.vdmsr.com/2017/08/aar-red-dot-class-modern-samurai.html):


"Muscles do not have memory. Myelination through proper repetition is the path to subconscious competence." While this is difficult for most to grasp as many people have been taught about "muscle memory" for a long time, Scott explained the concept well while dismissing any possible thought otherwise.

I will not be responding to you on this topic further, so save your response. You seem to want to have a mud throwing competition where I am trying to provide personal experience so that others may benefit.

[Gio]

Now you're just mixing things up for an unknown reason.

I've spoken about back plate shooting in the context of close range contact, you chose to make an issue of it, to what end? Only you seem to know that.

As I posted in my AAR of Scott's class (http://www.vdmsr.com/2017/08/aar-red-dot-class-modern-samurai.html):



I will not be responding to you on this topic further, so save your response. You seem to want to have a mud throwing competition where I am trying to provide personal experience so that others may benefit.

I don't spend enough time reading every post or thread here to have seen you elaborate on this concept in more detail elsewhere on this forum or your blog. My response was strictly to provide context/contrast to how you answered the OP's question in this thread, which as provided, was misguided. I'm not the only poster who questioned your advice, as GJM compared it to condition 3 carry.

Whether you call it myelination or muscle memory, the key point for the OP to understand is that the solution to his problem is developing subconscious ability through repetition, which is a very real skill set.

[critter]

I had (still have at times, if I haven't practiced with the RMR recently) the same problem. What I found I was doing was using the top of the RMR frame as an alignment point, and doing so I invariably had the same incorrect high sight picture (dot out of view at top of window, or almost so, and muzzle high). Since with irons I normally have them pretty well aligned upon presentation, I figured out my pea brain was overriding this normal presentation - - - perhaps because my eyes were wrongly "seeing" that shallow concave top of the RMR as the front aiming point. Whatever, I started trying to focus on the target and bring the RMR up, trying to center the window without seeing the top of the frame. Poorly described, but that helped me.

(I'll have to note that I'm terribly near-sighted, and with my normal eyeglasses, the front (iron) sight is very blurred, unless I tilt my head way back so I can see through the bottom of my progressive lenses. On the range, I wear glasses with the dominant eye lens set for front sight sharpness. Those glasses aren't good for normal wear. But my normal glasses work fine with the red dots, which is, for me at least, considerable motivation to go with a red dot.)

Yeah, progressive lenses are a bitch for shooting. I don't use any shooting specific lenses, but I don't shoot competitively either. I practice with my progressives and without corrective lenses at all. I had to completely retrain how I sight a pistol. Black fronts sights are virtually worthless to me for presentation because it takes quite a bit of time for me to locate them. I trained extensively with the biggest Big Dots. This allowed me to pick up the front sight in peripheral vision and follow it up and on target. It's never in focus for me (exactly how I learned NOT to shoot, but hey, it works well with the onset of shitty eyesight). I also cant the front sight higher in the presentation phase (about 45 degrees or so) and then level out at the end of the forward push (again, opposite original training of raising the weapon higher on draw and then coming more straight forward).

This presentation translates perfectly to the red dots. I follow the front sight all the way up peripherally, and when the weapon levels, the red dot is almost dead center every time. I don't own a red dot for any of my pistols... yet. I've only shot my buddies' red dot equipped pistols, but have had zero issue with any of them, as long as the front sight is anything but black.

[SC_Dave]

So not liking yesterdays range trip I went back today. I put away the timer and slowed way down and focused heavily on target focus and it did help some. If I lowered my head slightly more than I've engrained myself to do with irons I found the dot was there. So I drew from concealment paying close attention to the above and fired one shot when the dot was acquired and on target then re-holstered. I did 150 reps of this. Toward the end it was getting better so I plan to pick this same routine up at the next trip.

Thoughts?

David

[voodoo_man]

So not liking yesterdays range trip I went back today. I put away the timer and slowed way down and focused heavily on target focus and it did help some. If I lowered my head slightly more than I've engrained myself to do with irons I found the dot was there. So I drew from concealment paying close attention to the above and fired one shot when the dot was acquired and on target then re-holstered. I did 150 reps of this. Toward the end it was getting better so I plan to pick this same routine up at the next trip.

Thoughts?

David

Dryfire is where you are going to make the most progress with this.

Just understand that you are trying to undo all the reps you already have with iron sights. It is not going to be easy, but if that is your goal then do it dry with a finite target (like a B8 on a wall) and make sure you are doing perfect reps each time, so trigger prep/press shouldn't even be considered here as you are trying to learn how to pick up the dot.

You are trying to go forward by going backward first, it is going to take some time.

[GJM]

So not liking yesterdays range trip I went back today. I put away the timer and slowed way down and focused heavily on target focus and it did help some. If I lowered my head slightly more than I've engrained myself to do with irons I found the dot was there. So I drew from concealment paying close attention to the above and fired one shot when the dot was acquired and on target then re-holstered. I did 150 reps of this. Toward the end it was getting better so I plan to pick this same routine up at the next trip.

Thoughts?

David

My thoughts are that I try to be especially upright in my posture with the dot, and bring the dot to me rather than hunch. I also use the frame of the lens to center the display, rather than try to draw to the dot.

[Seth_yg]

To second voodoo and many others thinking probly the same thing...dry fire is the key here. Yes you can achieve some sort of menial success and mental accomplishment by going to the range and practicing slow and improving incrementally but the real issue is the presentation, which can only be fixed by hundreds if not thousands of dry fire draws and/or press outs.

I had a similar issue when I first started with a slide mounted RDS on a glock 19.4. The issue is the grip itself, glocks inherently point high and this is only exaggerated by the RDS, it is happening with irons also you might not notice it as much. (Once again not new info really)

My advice is to remain target focused, practice slow on close targets (3 yards or closer) draw and present gun, don’t press out and fish for dot, learn to draw while focusing on target and learn to superimpose dot on target. Some people advocate the slight raising of the gun during the press out, sort of at an angle instead of a straight press out. (Travis Haley) I don’t think this technique is needed for everyone. This takes time, some people adapt to it sooner than others. I think it is directly proportionate to the amount of reps you have with irons. I adapted fairly quickly, within 100 press outs or so my dot was appearing in the window every time. I was also a fairly new shooter, had been shooting pistol for less than 2 years. I’m 15k rounds deep into my fauxland special and loving it. The RDS really made pistol shooting fun, and helped me overcome many challenges I had early on.
Hope this some of this helps! Be safe, train hard!

P.S. - muscle memory or neural pathways, however you want to word it translates to one thing = reps. Reps matter and are the best solution short of changing platforms. Which I suppose you could do if money was not an issue, for me I had invested too much to change platforms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Seth_yg]

Also I did add a grip force adapter later on and it helped with the grip angle a bit. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171014/7502ec1809cf0fbd66e66c1f950e391d.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SC_Dave]

To second voodoo and many others thinking probly the same thing...dry fire is the key here. Yes you can achieve some sort of menial success and mental accomplishment by going to the range and practicing slow and improving incrementally but the real issue is the presentation, which can only be fixed by hundreds if not thousands of dry fire draws and/or press outs.

I had a similar issue when I first started with a slide mounted RDS on a glock 19.4. The issue is the grip itself, glocks inherently point high and this is only exaggerated by the RDS, it is happening with irons also you might not notice it as much. (Once again not new info really)

My advice is to remain target focused, practice slow on close targets (3 yards or closer) draw and present gun, don’t press out and fish for dot, learn to draw while focusing on target and learn to superimpose dot on target. Some people advocate the slight raising of the gun during the press out, sort of at an angle instead of a straight press out. (Travis Haley) I don’t think this technique is needed for everyone. This takes time, some people adapt to it sooner than others. I think it is directly proportionate to the amount of reps you have with irons. I adapted fairly quickly, within 100 press outs or so my dot was appearing in the window every time. I was also a fairly new shooter, had been shooting pistol for less than 2 years. I’m 15k rounds deep into my fauxland special and loving it. The RDS really made pistol shooting fun, and helped me overcome many challenges I had early on.
Hope this some of this helps! Be safe, train hard!

P.S. - muscle memory or neural pathways, however you want to word it translates to one thing = reps. Reps matter and are the best solution short of changing platforms. Which I suppose you could do if money was not an issue, for me I had invested too much to change platforms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My thoughts are that I try to be especially upright in my posture with the dot, and bring the dot to me rather than hunch. I also use the frame of the lens to center the display, rather than try to draw to the dot.

GJM and Seth,
I tried the method Travis mention and as you mentioned it's not for everyone. I did some dry fire reps and that, along with the lowering my head a bit has helped. I'm not there yet but it is not as bad as last week. Also to clarify, I'm all about being upright. When I say I'm dropping my head a little, it's very little and it's head only, not hunched backed. I'm ugly enough I don't need to look like the Hunch Back of ND. :D It also did something else for me. I wear transitional lenses and it helped me to be more clearly target focused because I'm now looking more through the top (distant) part of the lens. Thanks guys.




Also I did add a grip force adapter later on and it helped with the grip angle a bit.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171014/7502ec1809cf0fbd66e66c1f950e391d.jpg

I have a GFA and thought about putting it on to see if it helped. I had it on before but it seemed gimmicky to me and took it off before I got use to it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a GFA and thought about putting it on to see if it helped. I had it on before but it seemed gimmicky to me and took it off before I got use to it.

[SC_Dave]

To second voodoo and many others thinking probly the same thing...dry fire is the key here. Yes you can achieve some sort of menial success and mental accomplishment by going to the range and practicing slow and improving incrementally but the real issue is the presentation, which can only be fixed by hundreds if not thousands of dry fire draws and/or press outs.

I had a similar issue when I first started with a slide mounted RDS on a glock 19.4. The issue is the grip itself, glocks inherently point high and this is only exaggerated by the RDS, it is happening with irons also you might not notice it as much. (Once again not new info really)

My advice is to remain target focused, practice slow on close targets (3 yards or closer) draw and present gun, don’t press out and fish for dot, learn to draw while focusing on target and learn to superimpose dot on target. Some people advocate the slight raising of the gun during the press out, sort of at an angle instead of a straight press out. (Travis Haley) I don’t think this technique is needed for everyone. This takes time, some people adapt to it sooner than others. I think it is directly proportionate to the amount of reps you have with irons. I adapted fairly quickly, within 100 press outs or so my dot was appearing in the window every time. I was also a fairly new shooter, had been shooting pistol for less than 2 years. I’m 15k rounds deep into my fauxland special and loving it. The RDS really made pistol shooting fun, and helped me overcome many challenges I had early on.
Hope this some of this helps! Be safe, train hard!

P.S. - muscle memory or neural pathways, however you want to word it translates to one thing = reps. Reps matter and are the best solution short of changing platforms. Which I suppose you could do if money was not an issue, for me I had invested too much to change platforms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My thoughts are that I try to be especially upright in my posture with the dot, and bring the dot to me rather than hunch. I also use the frame of the lens to center the display, rather than try to draw to the dot.

GJM and Seth,
I tried the method Travis mention and as you mentioned it's not for everyone. I did some dry fire reps and that, along with the lowering my head a bit has helped. I'm not there yet but it is not as bad as last week. Also to clarify, I'm all about being upright. When I say I'm dropping my head a little, it's very little and it's head only, not hunched backed. I'm ugly enough I don't need to look like the Hunch Back of ND. :D It also did something else for me. I wear transitional lenses and it helped me to be more clearly target focused because I'm now looking more through the top (distant) part of the lens.

I have a GFA and thought about putting it on to see if it helped. I had it on before but it seemed gimmicky to me and took it off before I got use to it.

Thanks guys

[SC_Dave]

Not sure how I double posted this......

[Seth_yg]

Yeah give the grip force adapter a try, some guys swear by them. I just liked it better than adding a full beavertail backstrap to the 19.4 as I already have small hands. I like the feel with a beavertail on the gun it gives me a better “lockup” with my strong hand out of the holster than the stock glock grip. The GFA had the added benefit for me of changing the presentation ever so slightly. I didn’t have issues finding my dot before I used it but it did appear lower in the window and I was faster on the draw after I added it. Went from 1.05 down to the .90 range in the A zone at 7 yards out of the holster.

Sorry my pic doesn’t show it with the GFA on it, I added it after I took that pic. It was kinda loose and actually came off once during a match (I think because I removed a little material in the tang when I stippled the grip). Later I stippled the GFA permanently to the grip, and well...the frame isn’t exactly instagram worthy now, haha looks like shit but does the job!


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[GJM]

Here is my first run at the Vickers 6/6/6 drill this afternoon with my Walther Q5 and DP Pro. You can see my stance which is pretty upright.


https://youtu.be/gfhPDRAOJYg

[Ballistic_RT]

FWIW I noticed this issue with glocks well before I ever had an RMR. It corrected over time with irons as my body compensated. When I went to an RMR I experienced the issue again. I determined that what is was is the RMR just shows the issue exponentially more. If you were to take the handgun and present it with the dot perfectly centered, and then slowly cant the muzzle upward to the point you are seeing the dot on your normal presentation at speed, I would be that the irons arent too terribly shifted. The dot just takes that shift and magnifies how it is presented to you. Repetitions are the only way I know of to fix this issue apart from a grip modification or a platform change. When moving to a firearm that has a more 1911esq grip angle I do not notice the high dot presentation in the window, nor do those new to the RMR as a whole from my own data collection. Hopefully what I am relaying makes sense. One of the great things about the RMR is that it is a really good self diagnostics tool in your form and fundamentals. It gives instant feedback.

[Grey]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents. When I first started out with my RMR (been like 2 weeks...ahahah) I was constantly having to hunt for the dot.

The RMR really does give instant feedback on how your grip and presentation is. I know if I have a good grip and presentation as the dot is right where it needs to be.

Reps, reps, reps, reps. I just put out 10 reps every few minutes when I am on the computer. I have noticed it getting better and better day by day.

Keep at it!

[Tawadc95]

Read an article from Tom McHale the other day on this very subject...he said it is the normal tendency to hunt for the dot which makes it illusive when beginning.

His remedy was the same as you would for iron sights, hard focus on the target and the dot starts to appear where you are looking.

[GJM]

I felt like shooting my 17 MOS/DP Pro some, and have been the last week or so. Had a .49 draw to an A at 7 yards today, which is a PR for me. The grip angle doesn’t seem to be holding me back.

[VegasHK]

The only difference between a red dot and iron sights, is the red dot requires a more precise index, where iron sights allow you to get away with more imperfections in your index. In that way, the red dot is a fantastic training aid in improving index (and trigger control). Solving the dot presentation issue will improve your iron sight index as well.

I notice this as well. When I do a significant amount of training with my 19 with an RMR running a plate rack, or shooting very fast drills, then switch back to my iron sighted 34, I pick up my front sight much quicker. It does not seem to translate the other way. I believe the RMR forced me to make perfect presentations, the irons do not. It’s a phenomenon I have definitely noticed. Apparently I’m not the only one.