SME improving the situation

[octagon]

I recently had a PM conversation with a respected member of PF who has been a member for several years about SMEs. The discussion was respectful and meant to be private but it we discussed some issues regarding SMEs posting less,not posting at all anymore or possibly not posting here at PF in the first place.

I think everyone will agree that SMEs knowledge and experiences offer insights and depth to any discussion where the SME contributes information. Speaking for myself only I don't want to ruin or discourage a SME from sharing their knowledge some of it hard earned with significant sacrifice by them or those they learned from. @DaggaBoy and a couple other members have stated SMEs post less or don't or soon won't post here anymore. Finding out why and making some efforts to improve the situation will benefit every member.

So I am asking any SME why they may post less, not post at all or are hesitant to post?

This question is intended for SMEs but no one is preventing others from posting. However I ask to please be respectful,mature and reasonable and don't speak for or put words in anyone's mouths. Lets learn what issues may be a problem and not run off SMEs.

Also if SMEs can please be specific as possible with offending posts,reasons,examples or concerns so that non SMEs can have the best understanding.

Mas Tom Givens, @DaggaBoy DocGKR Mr_White , @SeanM , @WayneDobbs

Thanks in advance for any insight you can help with. Sorry if I missed some SMEs.

[Tom Givens]

My largest limiting factor is just time. I am on the road constantly most of the year, driving to/from or teaching classes. Since I have limited time, I usually post when I think I have something to contribute.

I don't play the gun of the week game with carry gear, so I don't have anything to add to the discussion of most of the niche handguns. In general, I couldn't care less what anyone else carries or why they chose it. The gun is one part of the equation and not the most important part.

I have had this discussion with many other SME's both on this forum and on others. I can tell you that for a lot of them, they tire quickly of being schooled by people with no experience, little training and little skill. Posters should consider that time is the stock in trade for working SME's and posters should be reluctant to waste their time.

[octagon]

Thank you Tom for the thoughts and I am glad you are doing well after the recent scare.

[StraitR]

Dagga Boy Sean M Wayne Dobbs

[BWT]

You forgot Surf and SLG ; I've been somewhat vocal about this during the PFestivus' in years past.

A really good point was presented to me (probably multiple but I remember one right now); how many times do they need to repeat a lot of the same information?

A lot of the pearls of wisdom developed over a career of shooting; some of those light bulb moments took a lot of time I'm sure. Combine that with Tom Given's points A.) their time is how they make money and B.) the skills they teach (and we want insight on) are what they teach for money. I think that's why.

I was getting choked out by a 3 Stripe Blue Belt (Jiu Jitsu) tonight (I'm a white belt which is what it is; it's a process) and we talked about a lot of simple but in-depth things. He'd been working on one way to mount an opponent and re-working that method to clean up that specific position for about 2-3 months; he was sharing some things he had researched and found. To put that in perspective I've been doing Jiu Jitsu for about 5 months now (I still suck; good lord).

I'm sure the internet forum drama has chased off SME's, but some of those thoughts helped me put my mind at ease.

I still miss BLR I bought a TRP after 2-ish years of dreaming and "what if"-ing (that was a graduation gift to myself) probably largely due to some of his posts rekindling my love for 1911's.

I'm just thankful for the SME's I've gotten to watch over the years and seen here.

God Bless,

Brandon

ETA: Added an "ed" to researched and "@" to BLR.

[BehindBlueI's]

Imagine you had a forum for pilots. Some of the most widely revered pilots came and shared ideas, hashed out tactics, combined their experience to develop best practices, and shared that info. New pilots and those just interested could come and learn, but were generally listeners and not talkers.

Imagine some dumbasses came in and told the pilots they should take the windows out of passenger jets and if the engines fail everyone can stick their arm out the window and flap them to stay in the air. This is exactly how stupid some of the comments in the recent thread in the LE forum were.

Then some other dumbasses come in and claim to be pilots. They got their single engine license and start telling people how to fly international space missions. If the real pilots argue with them, it makes them look like peers. If they ignore it, the people on the sidelines who don't know any better are stuck with the derp.

That's what happened. Many of the experts left because playing whack-a-mole with the idiots and pretenders isn't worth their time.

Great example: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20650-9-mm-147-gr-duty-load-testing

After that goat fuck of what is, otherwise, an extremely useful bit of information from an industry recognized expert who spent an inordinate amount of time explaining you can't flap your arms out the window:


Sometimes I get a bit dejected at all the derp and want to stop publicly posting. The only thing that keeps me doing it, is if I think it is benefiting citizens and officers who don't have access to more comprehensive data. There is so much BS being posted on the internet, especially YouTube and Wiki that I worry folks will get easily duped...

I've tried to get SLG and SouthNarc to come back and be at least semi-active, but I completely get it. Most of the SMEs, official or not, get PAID to do what they do here for FREE, have busy personal and professional lives, etc. In the end, sometimes they just decide it's too much bullshit to slog through and not worth the investment in time. They become the hermit on the mountain, only those who know and care can access their info, or they only entertain paying customers.

[GJM]

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads-23/

Above is such a forum, where many of the world's most experienced helicopter operational and test pilots hang out. Literally the guys involved in the development programs of many helicopters, leading emergency instructors, and pilots operating from Antarctica to around Everest. Guess what -- it is no different than Pistol Forum. Experts, posers, listeners, liars, promoters, thinkers, students and instructors -- that is the internet.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

In general, I think that public internet forums just aren't a particularly good venue for serious experts, for exactly the reasons outlined above.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[1slow]

I am very grateful to the SME for allowing us to benefit from their knowledge and experience.

[Dagga Boy]

I am not an SME, so I don't know if this even applies. I have been around this crap an awful long time at a very serious level. I have limited myself a lot. My girlfriend and I were just talking about this tonight. These forums were a means for me to "pay it forward" for those older, heavily experienced guys who helped me when I was younger, and throughout this journey. At times, you begin to find it is not worth the effort and frustration for folks to take your experience and basically discount it as irrelevant. At this point, I can simply get paid for it rather than be belittled for it. I have some pending articles based on stuff from here, minus the aggravation of arguing with people on the internet that has lost much of the appeal of the past. Also, when some folks began making some really personal attacks here, I wanted nothing to do with the place till those folks stopped posting. So, outside of a few threads of interest I weigh very heavily if the aggravation is worth the typing. At this stage in the game....most of the time the answer is no.

[JRCHolsters]

I hardly post here anymore and find myself reading fewer and fewer posts. I say this with mixed feelings, as I feel the membership of P-F has been very good to me and I try to pay that back. Most of the SME's that no longer seem to post much were the meat and potatoes of the forum. Now, as mentioned above, there are too many folks that either spend way to much time justifying opinions with no experience to back them up, or try to pick apart something an SME shares. Not super conducive to a format for sharing info and tiresome. I still sign in most everyday and scan the conversations and try to help where I can. I have made many good friends on this forum and am in touch with them on a regular basis, which I am thankful for.

[Robinson]

Keeping a forum going that is of sufficiently high quality to keep SMEs posting regularly and yet welcomes non-SMEs and especially new members to contribute is a difficult balancing act I'm afraid. The mods here do a good job but there's only so much they can do without going to one extreme or the other.

The SMEs who posted regularly in the early days of the forum provided a really good foundation. But we can't really expect SMEs to keep giving of their knowledge indefinitely. Good, informative threads still happen on a fairly regular basis -- sometimes you have to be willing to ignore the crap to gain from the good posts. I guess that's why I think the technical sections can be more heavily moderated while GD remains looser.

Any time someone with the SME title by their name posts something you can bet I will read it with interest. But there are also other knowledgeable folks here who contribute some really good stuff quite often.

Such is the nature of the internet.

[Surf]

I have had some face to face conversations and online exchanges with some of the SME's and time and frustration can be big factors, but I will only speak for myself. Personally, I have not pulled back out of any conflict, but I have found what seems to be an increasing amount of tiresome threads. A lot of back and forths and when I have found myself wanting to post, I get a couple pages into the thread and in true fashion it often devolves into a conversation that is not worth having.

Mostly, I will echo what Tom has mentioned, in that I am extremely busy. I thought retirement would allow for more free time, but it is quite the opposite. I think it may have even been Tom who said that I would probably find myself much busier after I retire, and he was right.

I have been extremely fortunate to know some great people/companies who have got my company directly into the game with joint projects and subbing us. Sure does open doors and fast track things, especially with building performance history. I am spending a lot of time learning how business works and there are times when I think I should have taken the blue pill and just surfed every day, but have instead taken the red pill and jumped feet first into the rabbit hole.

I still get asked a lot about the training stuff. Despite having been heavily enticed into going that direction, my company is not a traditional "firearms training" business and I never wanted to go that direction with the traveling road show and I still don't. However, I have found myself running at least one or two courses a month and they are booked solid in advance with wait lists and looking at adding more. The key is that they are local, so no constant travel. It could be its own full time thing but not where my focus is right now, and I have some great guys and looking at having them running that side of things to free up more of my time. I am not opposed to traveling to conduct a training event from time to time, but I couldn't do it full time.

I am also not opposed to firearms and training as in pursuing a major .gov type of contract that might include those training aspects, but I need to look at work from a management perspective instead of hands directly in everything role, which is strangely difficult. I am about to move beyond just the 1099's that we have as I am finding myself close to needing office space and the full time help that goes with it, so that is another aspect that needs attention and is new for me from a business perspective.

Add to all of this, I am also still assigned to my same unit as a Reserve LEO and do a lot with them but that may also have to change soon too. So I am pretty involved in a world that is still new to me and time is a premium. I do hope to be able to fully retire at some point and surf every day, so for now I am swinging for the fences while I still can.

[ASH556]

I respect 100% people's time and knowledge and their right to not participate. However, shelling out coin to go to multiple "SME's" classes just to (sometimes) figure out that "SME" is full of shit sucks. Example: I won't call myself an SME, but compared to a whole lot of people locally, I have quite a bit of experience with AR's. 16 years assembling, trouble-shooting, and studying the platform is WAY more than anyone else I know personally; not to mention paying my way through 2 different 16 hr armorers classes. Again, not saying this makes me the end all be all of AR's, but I know things most people I encounter don't. That being said, there's no shortage of youtube or gunshow/gunshop experts who run their mouths to me at the range about this that or the other. I don't try to change those people's minds. In fact, I usually won't even talk to them. BUT, for the folks who actively seek my advice, I willingly share without withholding. I have been and still am paid for my knowledge, skills, and tools, but I also genuinely like helping and teaching those that care.

In other words, don't let a few dicks ruin it for everyone else.

[TheNewbie]

I still think this is the best place on the net. It's an oasis , but I do miss wisdom/knowledge that many of the SME posts contained.

[Jared]

Once upon a time, I held the opinion that everyone needed to toughen up when it came to the internet. Then I applied my own lessons from my own real life job and realized I totally understand their frustration....

I'm not an SME in anything, but I know how to do my job, and I know it quite well. Every single day, I wind up having to argue with someone that wants me to replace component X because of symptom Y and they have done nothing to troubleshoot the problem at all, they just know that one time before we had this issue and component X was the culprit. Now, I get paid for this. I get paid to find the real problem and resolve it. And it still gets friggin tiring having to constantly say, no, X isn't the problem, it tests fine, component Z is the issue and I replaced it. And then get met with, can't we just replace X too, cause I really think that's it. Sure, if you want the machine down two more hours and to spend a couple thousand dollars plus my time and labor all to accomplish nothing. And the really stupid part of this is the same guys that wanna tell me how to fix this stuff are the same guys that breathe a sigh of relief when I show up instead of a greener technician because they know I know my stuff.....

So yeah, I 100% get the frustration the knowledgeable feel when they have to explain their bona fides over and over to people that refuse to listen after they prove their credibility. Triply so when they're here for free.

I hate that so many have been run off too. I came here to learn, not to argue. But if we drown out and chase of those that know, the learning becomes much more difficult.

[RJ]

Good thread.

I tend to post less, and read more, than when I started learning about shooting three years ago.

My early posts here make me cringe sometimes.

Couple points.

As much as I dislike 'rating' systems, would it be a benefit to translate 'like' statistics into a (pick a system) rating displayed against a user's Avatar on the main forum feed?

Some forums provide a 'star' display, or I've seen noun names like 'newbie' followed by 'member' then 'senior member' and so forth. As far as I can tell, they base this on post count, which is not popular on p-f.com. But what if it was based on 'like' statistics?

The point relative to the OP's question would be to crowd-source input from the forum membership on those member's contributing useful information in a public way. Thus, new members or others observing a thread would be able to see a post and better judge it as relevant (or not) based on the poster's public 'rating'?

Once in place, such a system would have no maintenance required from our Admins/Mods (who, let's face it, are crap anyway :cool: (*) and be of benefit.

Second, perhaps we could look at it from the other direction. Instead of encouraging SMEs to share their limited time, maybe we noob users could help to eliminate to derp.

So for example, I am not a SME (duh) but I can recognize a dumb comment now based on being more educated here for the last three years.

So how about giving the general populace a way to down vote a post (and keep track of down votes against a user) with a way to display (again) the aggregate?

It would seem to me that members who consistently make stupid comments would be identified pretty quickly here. Perhaps repeat offenders could be shown the door, or if not, told where the door is.


I think implementing either or both of these concepts could help eliminate derp, address the primary cause of SME non participation and would not come with a large maintenance overhead for the site admins.

* I'm kidding, of course.

[blues]

I've got nothing to add to this thread except to say my public thanks to SME's like Surf, SLG, SouthNarc, Paul Sharp, Cecil Burch, Doc and others who have taken the time to either reach out or reply to topics or questions I may have posted...or replied with info and encouragement behind the scenes via PM or phone call.

I totally respect your personal decisions in regard to participation whether its due to time constraints, frustration or other factors.

Just wanted to get it out there for those who may be in "read only" mode these days or who may not have felt that they received the right kind of feedback from the membership at large.

Your contributions haven't gone unappreciated.

[Jared]

Good thread.

I tend to post less, and read more, than when I started learning about shooting three years ago.

My early posts here make me cringe sometimes.

Couple points.

As much as I dislike 'rating' systems, would it be a benefit to translate 'like' statistics into a (pick a system) rating displayed against a user's Avatar on the main forum feed?

Some forums provide a 'star' display, or I've seen noun names like 'newbie' followed by 'member' then 'senior member' and so forth. As far as I can tell, they base this on post count, which is not popular on p-f.com. But what if it was based on 'like' statistics?

The point relative to the OP's question would be to crowd-source input from the forum membership on those member's contributing useful information in a public way. Thus, new members or others observing a thread would be able to see a post and better judge it as relevant (or not) based on the poster's public 'rating'?

Once in place, such a system would have no maintenance required from our Admins/Mods (who, let's face it, are crap anyway :cool: (*) and be of benefit.

Second, perhaps we could look at it from the other direction. Instead of encouraging SMEs to share their limited time, maybe we noob users could help to eliminate to derp.

So for example, I am not a SME (duh) but I can recognize a dumb comment now based on being more educated here for the last three years.

So how about giving the general populace a way to down vote a post (and keep track of down votes against a user) with a way to display (again) the aggregate?

It would seem to me that members who consistently make stupid comments would be identified pretty quickly here. Perhaps repeat offenders could be shown the door, or if not, told where the door is.


I think implementing either or both of these concepts could help eliminate derp, address the primary cause of SME non participation and would not come with a large maintenance overhead for the site admins.

* I'm kidding, of course.

Rich, I'll respectfully disagree with anything that involves turning likes into forum reputation. Some of my own personal posts that I've made that got me more "likes" than others were rather useless mundane items that contributed nothing to the overall goal of the forum. Again, that's my posts. Can't speak to other people's posts.

ETA: I'll bet that we could probably chase the problem down to a small handful of members when it comes to knowledgeable people being run off in most cases.

[RJ]

Rich, I'll respectfully disagree with anything that involves turning likes into forum reputation. Some of my own personal posts that I've made that got me more "likes" than others were rather useless mundane items that contributed nothing to the overall goal of the forum. Again, that's my posts. Can't speak to other people's posts.

ETA: I'll bet that we could probably chase the problem down to a small handful of members when it comes to knowledgeable people being run off in most cases.

Fair point.

System change: 'Likes' received in General Discussion do not count.

Better?

[Jared]

Fair point.

System change: 'Likes' received in General Discussion do not count.

Better?

Slightly. Please don't take my dislike of the idea as a shot at you. There's just something on my mind about this that I'm not willing to post publicly, that's all. PM me if you want my full take on it

[GJM]

Can someone post actual examples of specific posts, where members "disrespected" an SME, so we can see who did it, and get a feel for how often it did/does occur? I vaguely recall someone attempting to educate SeanM on the use of an AR in combat, but I could be rememembering incorrectly.

[JV_]

ETA: I'll bet that we could probably chase the problem down to a small handful of members when it comes to knowledgeable people being run off in most cases.Yup.

[RJ]

Slightly. Please don't take my dislike of the idea as a shot at you. There's just something on my mind about this that I'm not willing to post publicly, that's all. PM me if you want my full take on it

No problem.

I'm sure like me you've had various experiences on various fora over the years.

It is odd how different cultures value different approaches in Forum set up.

Believe me, I don't want any SMEs to be run off, at all. My post was just food for thought.

I'm glad octagon started the thread because this forum's signal to noise ratio is pretty high, and it irks me that we don't provide the best experience for our SMEs (and, non-labeled SMEs) we can.

Anything that would improve that is a good thing.

[Chance]

Why do experts choose not to participate? The Online Disinhibition Effect + Dunning-Kruger. The only way to address that is limiting / pruning who is allowed to participate, and PF doesn't do that, as a general rule.

In times past, the idea of limiting participation based on reputation has been tossed around. That's really tricky to do well, and I'm not convinced the proposed solutions would make the situation any better.

Excluding participation may make sense occasionally, especially in the Law Enforcement section. I avoid posting there, and when I do, I really want to make sure I'm not saying something dumb. But the bottom line is: I'm not a cop, and I don't know what I don't know, so it's entirely fair that I not be allowed to "contribute" there.

With regards to knowledgable folks arguing with willfully ignorant people on the Internet: I have no idea how / why any choose to do so in the first place. In the handful of places where I actually know my stuff (which is not here on PF, but elsewhere), the first time some twelve-year-old logs on and tells me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm done. Life's too short to volunteer frustration on that shit.

[Hambo]

Can someone post actual examples of specific posts, where members "disrespected" an SME, so we can see who did it, and get a feel for how often it did/does occur? I vaguely recall someone attempting to educate SeanM on the use of an AR in combat, but I could be rememembering incorrectly.

And some idiot explaining gel testing to Doc, somebody explaining gunfights to DB, people who know fuck all about LE posting about OIS. I'm sure there's more.

I recall an SME saying something about explaining over and over, or how there are finite answers to certain questions and it gets old. Something along those lines.

[warpedcamshaft]

I think another factor is that over the life-span of a forum, the pool of legitimate interesting questions tends to shrink.

Many forums end up answering the same pool of questions and then stagnate. Thats why I'm hoping Dagga will start a thread about his years as a supply clerk. :rolleyes:

[scw2]

I recall an SME saying something about explaining over and over, or how there are finite answers to certain questions and it gets old. Something along those lines.

That could make something like a wiki helpful as a source of knowledge compiled either by crowd or directly from SMEs. For example, when I was setting up my j frame tons of people (SME and non-SME alike) provided tons of advice on the gear and ammo. While we all know it's not the most important thing, having a resource for something like that with vetted equipment, tips/tricks, and even some basic revolver specific drills such as the J frame super test could be helpful to point people to. Maybe I should dig up the info and start compiling the info and shoot it over to revolver rob... I think he mentioned something about working on a wiki during pfestivus.

[JV_]

People don't need to be (repeatedly) directly challenged to be driven off. I'm not an SME in anything and I find some people sufficiently irritating that I won't participate in certain threads because I don't want to engage with them. The more these people participate, the less I participate. I doubt I'm unique in this situation.

[blues]

I don't know that there's a pat answer to this issue but to me it comes down to respect...and that's a two way street.

Folks should show respect to one another to ensure that an honest disagreement, whether on a technical matter, hardware or software issue, doesn't devolve into a personal war of words fueled by ill will.

Members with less experience in a particular venue may do well to defer to those with greater experience or at least take pains to ensure that their words are not intended to, or appear to slight, or argue for the sake of argument.

SME's, imho, need to avoid taking reasonable discussion or even debate as a slight or swipe at their status. None of us is infallible and respect is a precious commodity both when its given as well as when received.

In my humble opinion, in discussions involving the area of expertise of an SME within the appropriate forums, moderators should be quick to step in and take action to avoid unnecessary or disrespectful interactions in the open. Members who are found wanting in this regard should be admonished, privately or publicly if necessary and appropriate action taken by staff.

We all learn from opposing points of view, especially when resolution is achieved to make the matter in question clearer for us all. Allowing egos and bad behavior to steer the ship is a recipe for disaster.

My two cents, provided without agenda.

[TexasSiegfried]

I still think this is the best place on the net. It's an oasis , but I do miss wisdom/knowledge that many of the SME posts contained.This^^^^^^^^

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

I tried to go back and edit my post (actually delete it), but it was too late. I only respond because I keep getting brought up. I am not an SME on this forum, and this really doesn't apply. Sorry for chiming in and back to what the discussion should have been about.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

For what it is worth, I taught a class on human computer interaction a few years ago. This effect has been going on since the being of interactive exchanges on specific topics. Trying to maintain quality interactions and interest among the starting expert population is difficult. Unless you restrain entry, the fanboy world pollutes the environment and folks have other things to do. Being a mod elsewhere - how many times can you deal with someone's opinion about the shotgun?

[parkerjake]

For what it's worth, I think this forum is a cut above a number of other interest-based forums in which I've participated. The members for the most part put ego aside and share information, based on relevant experience. Of course, there are exceptions, and I know how frustrating it can be to waste time and effort dealing with self-serving morons who are just looking for exposure. I was managing $15 billion in corporate pension accounts before I retired. I tried offering advice on certain investment-oriented forums, only to be undercut by guys obviously still living in their parents' basement and doing the odd day trade in the hope of striking rich. Whatever. To those who share genuine wisdom, I say thank you. To the posers, it's obvious who you are, and I say get a life.

[BehindBlueI's]

I tried to go back and edit my post (actually delete it), but it was too late. I only respond because I keep getting brought up. I am not an SME on this forum, and this really doesn't apply. Sorry for chiming in and back to what the discussion should have been about.

You aren't tagged as an SME, but I think everyone understands that you are.

[Jared]

People don't need to be (repeatedly) directly challenged to be driven off. I'm not an SME in anything and I find some people sufficiently irritating that I won't participate in certain threads because I don't want to engage with them. The more these people participate, the less I participate. I doubt I'm unique in this situation.

I agree 100% with this. Matter of fact, I'd again be willing to wager that the issue has less to do with some derpfiend blatantly arguing and more to do with those that behave as a repeated mid level irritant over an extended period of time.

[Jared]

I tried to go back and edit my post (actually delete it), but it was too late. I only respond because I keep getting brought up. I am not an SME on this forum, and this really doesn't apply. Sorry for chiming in and back to what the discussion should have been about.

The thing for me is, I'm less interested in the actual title than in having good members here that really know what they're talking about. Title or no, I do believe that you know exactly what you're talking about. When people, either accidentally or on purpose, make this forum not worth the time to folks like you, then people like me who desire the knowledge you would share suffer for it.

So when I'm talking about SME's, I'm not just referencing the people that carry the title, I'm talking about good knowledgeable people who are willing to share to help the rest of us (like me) learn things. They could scrap the title aspect of it and I'd still sit up and pay attention to the same people as I do now.

[Wondering Beard]

These forums were a means for me to "pay it forward" for those older, heavily experienced guys who helped me when I was younger, and throughout this journey.

Dagga Boy, just so you know, even though I've never met you, your "paying it forward" has enriched me.

Same with all the other SMEs (with or without titles).

[DocGKR]

Dagga Boy is an SME in my book...

[DocGKR]

The last few years I have been working 12+ hours per day at my real job, so it inhibits my ability to read and post as much as I would like.

In addition, when I am tasked with certain projects or legal cases, I often need to refrain from posting on certain topics to avoid any accusation of bias or conflict of interest. For example, I spent 6 months earlier this year reviewing a large USG acquisition, but due to an NDA, I have not been able to discuss it at all, despite it being a significant topic of interest on the internet--most of which consists of complete inaccurate nonsense posts and articles about the topic...

[Odin Bravo One]

I retired a month ago, which honestly means I should be surrendering my SME title because I have no intention of ever firing another round in anger, and any experience I gained over my career is quickly becoming obsolete. Mostly I have a lot of things I missed out on, and I'm trying to make up for lost time now that I have more to go around.

[Hambo]

Deleted because I fucked up the quotes.

[JV_]

Deleted because I fucked up the quotes.

Thanks for fixing that.

[hufnagel]

You aren't tagged as an SME, but I think everyone understands that you are.


Dagga Boy, just so you know, even though I've never met you, your "paying it forward" has enriched me.

Same with all the other SMEs (with or without titles).


Dagga Boy is an SME in my book...

Hear hear!
(I just broke my solid oak table, smashing my beer stein on it.)

[Duces Tecum]

Imagine you had a forum for pilots. Some of the most widely revered pilots came and shared ideas, hashed out tactics, combined their experience to develop best practices, and shared that info. New pilots and those just interested could come and learn, but were generally listeners and not talkers.

Imagine some dumbasses came in and told the pilots they should take the windows out of passenger jets and if the engines fail everyone can stick their arm out the window and flap them to stay in the air. This is exactly how stupid some of the comments in the recent thread in the LE forum were.

Then some other dumbasses come in and claim to be pilots. They got their single engine license and start telling people how to fly international space missions. If the real pilots argue with them, it makes them look like peers. If they ignore it, the people on the sidelines who don't know any better are stuck with the derp.

That's what happened. Many of the experts left because playing whack-a-mole with the idiots and pretenders isn't worth their time.

Great example: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20650-9-mm-147-gr-duty-load-testing

After that goat fuck of what is, otherwise, an extremely useful bit of information from an industry recognized expert who spent an inordinate amount of time explaining you can't flap your arms out the window:


I've tried to get SLG and SouthNarc to come back and be at least semi-active, but I completely get it. Most of the SMEs, official or not, get PAID to do what they do here for FREE, have busy personal and professional lives, etc. In the end, sometimes they just decide it's too much bullshit to slog through and not worth the investment in time. They become the hermit on the mountain, only those who know and care can access their info, or they only entertain paying customers.


Would it be helpful to offer a SME Only Forum in which (a) only invitees were permitted to post but (b) read-only was open to all?

[BehindBlueI's]

Would it be helpful to offer a SME Only Forum in which (a) only invitees were permitted to post but (b) read-only was open to all?

Maybe, along with the ability to start threads to ask a question and the OP could still respond to clarify or ask further.

It's a balancing act, the forum definitely has a different feel now. It's more active and fun (IMO) but it's less technical and we've lost some voices I'd have liked to keep.

[Hambo]

People don't need to be (repeatedly) directly challenged to be driven off. I'm not an SME in anything and I find some people sufficiently irritating that I won't participate in certain threads because I don't want to engage with them. The more these people participate, the less I participate. I doubt I'm unique in this situation.

You're not.


SME's, imho, need to avoid taking reasonable discussion or even debate as a slight or swipe at their status. None of us is infallible and respect is a precious commodity both when its given as well as when received.



I agree with all the rest of your post, but wanted to address this in particular. There's a line between opposite viewpoints and total bullshit, and IMO there has been a lot of the latter in the last year or so. I can see how an SME who has to deal with an increasing number of pointless/ridiculous questions/opinions might get bent easily when someone else with experience offers a differing opinion. I found this place and joined because I knew Todd's name and knew of or had met some of the SMEs. As SME participation dwindles so does my interest.

[JV_]

I found this place and joined because I knew Todd's name and knew of or had met some of the SMEs. As SME participation dwindles so does my interest.

On a related tangent, ToddG was the "glue" for many circles.

[holmes168]

I retired a month ago, which honestly means I should be surrendering my SME title because I have no intention of ever firing another round in anger, and any experience I gained over my career is quickly becoming obsolete. Mostly I have a lot of things I missed out on, and I'm trying to make up for lost time now that I have more to go around.

FWIW- your experiences will never become obsolete. I know how you feel since I've been out a decade. However- everything you bring is still valuable. We definitely have had different combat experiences, but what you have learned will always be mandatory reading for me.

[Duces Tecum]

I'll bet that we could probably chase the problem down to a small handful of members when it comes to knowledgeable people being run off in most cases.

My Profile > Forum Settings > General Settings > My Account > Edit Ignore List

[Jared]

My Profile > Forum Settings > General Settings > My Account > Edit Ignore List

I've got an ignore list, although there's probably only 2-3 people on it.

[blues]

I agree with all the rest of your post, but wanted to address this in particular. There's a line between opposite viewpoints and total bullshit, and IMO there has been a lot of the latter in the last year or so. I can see how an SME who has to deal with an increasing number of pointless/ridiculous questions/opinions might get bent easily when someone else with experience offers a differing opinion. I found this place and joined because I knew Todd's name and knew of or had met some of the SMEs. As SME participation dwindles so does my interest.

I think I took pains to make the line of demarcation clear. By quoting me you're sort of implying that I'm blaming the SME for having to contend with pointless, ridiculous b.s. and that's certainly not the takeaway from my message...as I did say "reasonable". Or perhaps I just really did a piss poor job of getting my point across in which case it's my error.

[orionz06]

On a related tangent, ToddG was the "glue" for many circles.

I think this was far more of it than a lot of other things. More so there was a different tone for the forum as well.


ETA: I'll bet that we could probably chase the problem down to a small handful of members when it comes to knowledgeable people being run off in most cases.
Yeah, but they won't be banned and blocking them doesn't do much.



Can someone post actual examples of specific posts, where members "disrespected" an SME, so we can see who did it, and get a feel for how often it did/does occur? I vaguely recall someone attempting to educate SeanM on the use of an AR in combat, but I could be rememembering incorrectly.
Could be expanded to people equating their experiences to be on par with that of others and then drowning them out.

[Jared]

I think this was far more of it than a lot of other things. More so there was a different tone for the forum as well.


Yeah, but they won't be banned and blocking them doesn't do much.



Could be expanded to people equating their experiences to be on par with that of others and then drowning them out.

A lot of things changed after Todd stopped posting, that's for sure

[Chance]

Okay, if we're going to have the full "SME conversation": I wasn't privy to the behind-the-scenes (it's none of my business and I honestly don't care), but whatever it was that kept Darryl from getting the official SME badge is a 6+ year old mistake that needs to be corrected.

Further, I think a lot of the decreased technical discussion is due to the fact that we can only beat a dead horse so much. If I see another thread about the pros / cons of LEM or AIWB, I'm going to claw my eyes out, and I don't have a dog in any of those fights. The fundamentals of this stuff, and really of pretty much any sufficiently-complicated field, don't change much, and we've had those conversations.

[Dagga Boy]

The thing for me is, I'm less interested in the actual title than in having good members here that really know what they're talking about. Title or no, I do believe that you know exactly what you're talking about. When people, either accidentally or on purpose, make this forum not worth the time to folks like you, then people like me who desire the knowledge you would share suffer for it.

So when I'm talking about SME's, I'm not just referencing the people that carry the title, I'm talking about good knowledgeable people who are willing to share to help the rest of us (like me) learn things. They could scrap the title aspect of it and I'd still sit up and pay attention to the same people as I do now.


Dagga Boy, just so you know, even though I've never met you, your "paying it forward" has enriched me.

Same with all the other SMEs (with or without titles).


Dagga Boy is an SME in my book...


Hear hear!
(I just broke my solid oak table, smashing my beer stein on it.)


While that is nice and all, the fact is that ain't how this place works. SME's at P-F were granted certain protections and status. Even if out of their lane on stuff they were not SME's on. The staff positions also have certain protections built in. Heck, just pals with Todd had a certain status. For the people here that many regular participants think know some stuff and engage in a active topic, minus that protection with the title comes the Internet equality factor. Engaging a popular person, or person who seems to have some extensive knowledge, on a forum is great for many folks ego's who aren't equipped for that same activity in person. Arguing with folks who have earned expertise and experience for many theoreticians is a flat win, because they got to espouse their theories of "what they would do" on totally equal footing with those that have actually done. The "well a bunch of us think you're an SME" is actually a magnet for some people and truely troll bait.
Basically, whoever decides on SME's thumbed me down a long time ago here and I am sure the reasoning was based on some scientific matrix that mixed "he's an asshole" in at a high point value. That is fine and I long ago decided it's a club I do not want to be in based on whatever criteria was necessary. Most of the actual SME's here I treat as such no matter what is under their name based on what they have done in life and not on what Todd's opinion of them was. A couple other's...not so much.
Much of this now goes back to what the current owner of this place wants to do. His circus, his monkey's and me participating is voluntary. I will say that as I am putting together an article on triggers, most of it was posted here in the past. That has opened my eyes to why should I post stuff to become a target when I can submit stuff to an editor and get a check? I love debates. It is how I learn. It is how I keep a balance. It is what I liked about Todd was debating him because he was smart. Two people here I have locked a lot of horns with is GJM and Gabe White (both of whom are very much technical shooting SME's). GJM and I talk all the time now outside the forum, and threads where Gabe is participating are ones I will at minimum read and often post because he is a solid technical offset to my focus of force application. We are all learning from each other because it's not personal, and we are basing our respect for each other on actual abilities, experience and knowledge and not on internet abilities. There are some folks here like Wayne Dobbs, Angus McFee, The LSP guys (sure miss LSP972..RIP, and many others who have boat loads of practical street use of force experience who can provide some solid offset and balalnce to all the technical expertise here. Unfortunately, they carry the same knowledge status as the folks who have never done anything scarier than arrived home late and their mom forgot to leave the porch light on. Many of us have simply gone back to talking on the phone like we used to do. More positive exchanges, we benefit from those exchanges, but the downside is those conversations don't get shared with a ton of folks who could use that same information or allow them to absorb a bunch of input from folks who may not agree but are having a respectful debate based on their experiences.

[Jared]

Okay, if we're going to have the full "SME conversation": I wasn't privy to the behind-the-scenes (it's none of my business and I honestly don't care), but whatever it was that kept Darryl from getting the official SME badge is a 6+ year old mistake that needs to be corrected.

Further, I think a lot of the decreased technical discussion is due to the fact that we can only beat a dead horse so much. If I see another thread about the pros / cons of LEM or AIWB, I'm going to claw my eyes out, and I don't have a dog in any of those fights. The fundamentals of this stuff, and really of pretty much any sufficiently-complicated field, don't change much, and we've had those conversations.

You have hit on one of the issues with technical forums. The topics do tend to get covered over time, often over-covered. Still, it is so very handy to have a group of smart solid people posting to 1) slap down bullshit when it gets lofted in and 2) offer good solid advice to newer members and shooters when they arrive.

We have significantly less of that.

[Erik]

Would it be helpful to offer a SME Only Forum in which (a) only invitees were permitted to post but (b) read-only was open to all?


Maybe, along with the ability to start threads to ask a question and the OP could still respond to clarify or ask further.

It's a balancing act, the forum definitely has a different feel now. It's more active and fun (IMO) but it's less technical and we've lost some voices I'd have liked to keep.

I like this combined idea.




Basically, whoever decides on SME's thumbed me down a long time ago here and I am sure the reasoning was based on some scientific matrix that mixed "he's an asshole" in at a high point value.

That's definitely why I'm not an SME.

[octagon]

First I want to thank the SMEs that have already replied and addressed issues they have had or reasons they post less. Also thanks to everyone for keeping the discussion primarily on topic and courteous.

So far in reading the comments it appears there are just a couple issues that seem to be re-occurring and to a greater or lesser extant a minor or serious issue to people including SMEs. What I gather is there are some people who post either in a thread an SME is posting in or directly to/response to a SME that is less than respectful by continuous questioning or unreasonable/dumb beyond just novice sincerely looking to learn about a topic. When I say "SME" I too refer to those designated on PF as SMEs and those long term respected members who over time have offered deeper insight though maybe not designated a SME.

To this issue some suggestions have been offered that may or may not be able to be reasonably implemented without undue cost in time or effort by Tom and moderators. Having a section where SMEs could post and reply with stricter control and moderation or limited access by very new members is one that may be most workable. The ranking of members quality of posts vs nonsense or divisive posts may be another good idea but has some weaknesses in implementation with clique-ish or popularist mentality a real risk. However it may help in sorting out who would have access to a SME section.

Along the same lines is identifying the problem people posting garbage. Tom has the triangle "report post" button and has been responsive to any PMs I have sent him. Without adding to his workload or looking to name names is everyone using this method or PMs to Tom to help him identify problem posts and posters? Maybe some self policing in a non-adversarial way to keep things on topic or get them back on topic would be helpful. Sometimes we address a problem post several post after it and this doesn't specify the bad post. This can let clueless people off the hook to keep on posting garbage either because they believe the corrective response was directed at someone else or was meant as a joke/sarcasm. This too runs the risk or over exuberant members going too far in trying to regulate others but at some point we can be too nice right into losing good members and good posts by SMEs. Passive aggressive "I won't name any names" kind of posts often get taken by some as an attack on them when it may not even been directed at them and the person it was directed at may not have a clue that they are the problem.

Maybe Tom_Jones can elaborate on how well reporting problem people and problem posts is working at helping to identify the people in a timely manner or is too often or too little used to be helpful to him. He can also advise how difficult a SME section, restricted section access or member ranking system would be to implement.

[babypanther]

In so hopefully some of the SME's tagged see.

I found this place as a guy issued a P2000 LEM that wanted to learn how to shoot it gooder. I'm not working that job any more, but I still carry a gun to earn my pay. This forum has made me a better shooter, but it has done quite a bit more than that. Thank you to each and every SME. Due in a large part to Gabe, I'm planning on staying around, but I think with Todd's passing this forum definitely changed.

[Mr_White]

Mr_White

I love Pistol-Forum. My participation levels go up and down along with time demands, energy, and personal interest. Work is super busy in the spring and summer, and very slow in the winter. It is hard for me to be very active on the forum from about April to September. Training at the national level is getting busier for me, and that includes a surprising amount of emailing back and forth with students, prospective hosts, etc., planning for travel, continuing to refine training plans. I'm actually a bit shocked at how much time I am spending on the administration and communication that goes on in the background.

Not every topic holds personal interest to me, so sometimes I don't post for that reason. I believe in the free exchange of information to further the study of the fighting arts, so there is not much that I'm unwilling to discuss - not posting is no more than a time/interest thing.

Recently, I had a realization about (at least some) SMEs. There was a thread involving one of the people frequently referenced as an SME, and he said his piece based on his experience, and there was a poster who kept asking questions, effectively wanting to debate what the SME-type said. I am positive that he meant nothing bad by it, and only wanted to understand better. Ultimately the thread was closed because it was just going around and around and would probably have led to butthurt.

Anyway, what I think I realized was that this SME just wanted to say his piece and that's all. He wasn't interested in a debate. Someone posted a topic, he had something to say about it, he gave his answer, and that's where his personal interest ended. He wasn't interested in debating his answer - that was clearly tiresome to him.

People have different interest levels in forum participation, and there isn't anything wrong with what the SME did and didn't care to discuss. It just didn't match up with the person asking the questions.

I felt a little bad too, because from that exchange, I could see that at certain times, I might have done the same thing to that same esteemed SME-person. :)

And I'm several pages behind on this thread so I'll try to go catch up now...and while I wrote this I now have about three more emails to answer too lol.

[Jared]

octagon,

Wrt reporting posts....

Where I keep seeing issues is two very different types. One is the idiot that crosses the line and stands there arguing until he gets shown the door. Report post works very well for this problem and I don't think this is the main issue.

Type 2 is where I believe the problem is. Type 2 is basically a long standing member that knows exactly what they can get away with and what they can get away with. They are what I referred to as a long term mid level irritant in one of my other posts. Basically, the walk right up to the line, stare over it, put their to over it, and then pull it back. Like a 5 year old playing the "I'm not touching you" game with their finger 0.5" away from their big brother. It's worse if they also contribute a lot of good to the forum. Then there's the issue of do they get banned and we lose the good as well as the bad, or do we let them keep going and irritate others right on out the door. Type 2 is why I don't envy the mods their jobs one single bit. Reporting posts on this type often results in them behaving better, for a while, then it's back to the same behavior.

[hufnagel]

Anyway, what I think I realized was that this SME just wanted to say his piece and that's all. He wasn't interested in a debate. Someone posted a topic, he had something to say about it, he gave his answer, and that's where his personal interest ended. He wasn't interested in debating his answer - that was clearly tiresome to him.


If someone learned wishes to drop a Brain Dropping, I think it would be wise if they were allowed to do so, and then the thread locked. Or, possibly a thread dedicated only to their Brain Droppings; no other posting allowed in it. If people wished to debate they could start a new thread for that. This way we get to collectively see the signal, and are provided an easy method to filter out the noise. Does that make sense to anyone else?

[Clusterfrack]

SMEs and unofficial experts: thanks for your time and effort. You are a big reason why I am a PF site supporter, and why I invest time in this forum.

Perhaps we can at least partially address this issue with 1) periodic reminders not to derail informative discussions, and 2) up-front statements from SMEs when they are not interested in continued discussion?

[Jared]

If someone learned wishes to drop a Brain Dropping, I think it would be wise if they were allowed to do so, and then the thread locked. Or, possibly a thread dedicated only to their Brain Droppings; no other posting allowed in it. If people wished to debate they could start a new thread for that. This way we get to collectively see the signal, and are provided an easy method to filter out the noise. Does that make sense to anyone else?

I think there was a pfestivus suggestion one year that maybe some folks could have their own pf blog where they could just post without others commenting and then if someone wanted to do a discussion they could start a thread in an appropriate place. I loved the idea myself. Let's the ones that want to share without having an endless debate do that, and gives the folks that want something to discuss a way to do that as well.

[Odin Bravo One]

FWIW- your experiences will never become obsolete. I know how you feel since I've been out a decade. However- everything you bring is still valuable. We definitely have had different combat experiences, but what you have learned will always be mandatory reading for me.

My days of fighting are over. As are my days of being a paid armed professional. I made a conscious decision many years ago not to continue to teach or provide instruction as related to firearms and tactics while I was still considered an SME on tactical shooting and close quarters combat in my professional circles. When my kid was born, I made a conscious decision to leave the firearm/shooting "industry", and cut just about all personal and professional ties to the industry. One of the few exceptions was PF.com.

All of this combined puts me on the fringe of relevance for maybe a few more months. After that, there will be little use for a Former Action Guy around here except for maybe the occasional snide comment or smart ass remark.

And while I wasn't a General Officer, Omar Bradley once made a statement that resonates well with me: "The best service a retired general can provide is to mothball his opinions along with his uniform".

I'll continue to respond/reply to any direct questions people may have for me specifically, but there is no shortage of people on this board as qualified, if not more so, to provide input on the narrow scope of topics where my experience has any relevance. I prefer to lurk and learn more these days as I branch out into shooting that isn't related to my former profession, rather than randomly toss in my two cents into a topic that someone else is able to provide better information.

[octagon]

A couple of quick thoughts. As a suggestion for SMEs to have a place to post thoughts and not have to deal with banter or argumentative posts maybe Tom_Jones could have the training Journal section expanded for SMEs so they could have a dedicated section to post info and insights in and they would have the ability to open or close the thread at their desire for commentary or time to respond. Kind of like the open discussion some experts have on Facebook and other social media where and when they want limited to the time they wish to respond then close it.

To Sean M I hope you will continue to contribute. I understand your point about retiring from the career and while it is true the longer a person is away from something the more dated and possibly less relevant the information or knowledge they have is accurate to the current. However in interpersonal conflict,combat and lethal encounters some things change very little and good insights are still to be gained from others experiences. Until we are all using laser guns and holographic sighting systems that direct the hits a lot of stuff doesn't change to be irrelevant just less cutting edge or slightly different with slow evolution of equipment and techniques. Sun Tzu may have retired a couple years ago but he still can offer some bites of wisdom in 2017. Please share where/when you can to all SMEs.

[hufnagel]

My days of fighting are over. As are my days of being a paid armed professional. I made a conscious decision many years ago not to continue to teach or provide instruction as related to firearms and tactics while I was still considered an SME on tactical shooting and close quarters combat in my professional circles. When my kid was born, I made a conscious decision to leave the firearm/shooting "industry", and cut just about all personal and professional ties to the industry. One of the few exceptions was PF.com.

All of this combined puts me on the fringe of relevance for maybe a few more months. After that, there will be little use for a Former Action Guy around here except for maybe the occasional snide comment or smart ass remark.

And while I wasn't a General Officer, Omar Bradley once made a statement that resonates well with me: "The best service a retired general can provide is to mothball his opinions along with his uniform".

I'll continue to respond/reply to any direct questions people may have for me specifically, but there is no shortage of people on this board as qualified, if not more so, to provide input on the narrow scope of topics where my experience has any relevance. I prefer to lurk and learn more these days as I branch out into shooting that isn't related to my former profession, rather than randomly toss in my two cents into a topic that someone else is able to provide better information.


Now you can tell some seriously awesome stories, truthful or not. I for one would always be willing to sit around that virtual campfire.

[ubervic]

For what it is worth, I taught a class on human computer interaction a few years ago. This effect has been going on since the being of interactive exchanges on specific topics. Trying to maintain quality interactions and interest among the starting expert population is difficult. Unless you restrain entry, the fanboy world pollutes the environment and folks have other things to do. Being a mod elsewhere - how many times can you deal with someone's opinion about the shotgun?

BINGO

[Shotgun]

Imagine you had a forum for pilots. Some of the most widely revered pilots came and shared ideas, hashed out tactics, combined their experience to develop best practices, and shared that info. New pilots and those just interested could come and learn, but were generally listeners and not talkers.

Imagine some dumbasses came in and told the pilots they should take the windows out of passenger jets and if the engines fail everyone can stick their arm out the window and flap them to stay in the air. This is exactly how stupid some of the comments in the recent thread in the LE forum were.

Then some other dumbasses come in and claim to be pilots. They got their single engine license and start telling people how to fly international space missions. If the real pilots argue with them, it makes them look like peers. If they ignore it, the people on the sidelines who don't know any better are stuck with the derp.

That's what happened. Many of the experts left because playing whack-a-mole with the idiots and pretenders isn't worth their time.

Great example: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20650-9-mm-147-gr-duty-load-testing

After that goat fuck of what is, otherwise, an extremely useful bit of information from an industry recognized expert who spent an inordinate amount of time explaining you can't flap your arms out the window:

This is excellent writing. I think many of us are going to remember "can't flap your arms out the window" for a long time, and I suggest that phrase be used here at PF in the future when, well, people are found flapping their arms out the window. Or, one could just use the term "goat fuck" when the flapping of arms gets really bad.

It would be wonderful if SMEs posted here all the time, but I do not think we can expect constant or even regular participation from them. When new developments occur in the firearms world, it would be nice to hear from them -- ammunition and firearm reviews, tactics, and the like. But, I am sure they get bored with discussing the same topics over and over. I know I do. I am involved in the shotgun/clay target world in some fashion many days during the shooting season from the mundane up to and including running some of the largest registered sporting clays shoots in Texas. I hang out here rather than shotgun world or other clay target forum because it gets very old discussing the same shotgun/clay target game topics all the time. I think it is a blessing that the PF SMEs occasionally even show up and post here in their free time, especially when several of them have already spent their day teaching and instructing others in the art of the pistol.

PF is truly an oasis on the internet as many here have said in the past. The great majority of PF contributors appear to be mature, intelligent people from their posts. It's too bad that arm flapping sometimes occurs, or that the rare GFer shows up. Nevertheless, I think most of us can readily separate the wheat from the chaff, or in BBI's analogy, the pilots from the arm flappers.

To the SMEs, please know that your knowledge and contributions here do trickle down to the average pistol shooter. Many of us do come and learn, and listen more than we talk (General Discussion and Pfestivus type threads not included). As a result of this forum, I use ammunition from Doc's list in my pistols and ARs. I would probably have a P320 by now if not for this forum. My pistol grip is better and my accuracy has improved despite aging eyes. I even know what a gadget is and its purpose. Due to reading a certain SME's contributions here, I am working on my wife to get her license to carry. So, to the SMEs, thank you.

[Chance]

I'm going to post contrary opinions to all of the below. I'm not doing so to be an asshole / difficult / quarrelsome, but if we're honest about having a full exploration of the subject, then a contrarian opinion is necessary.


Maybe some self policing in a non-adversarial way to keep things on topic or get them back on topic would be helpful.

You're evidently a police officer, so what constitutes "non-adversarial policing"? Again, I'm not trying to be a dick, but some people simply don't respond to suggestive attitude adjustments.


Sometimes we address a problem post several post after it and this doesn't specify the bad post.

....

Passive aggressive "I won't name any names" kind of posts often get taken by some as an attack on them when it may not even been directed at them and the person it was directed at may not have a clue that they are the problem.

Not naming names is matter of decorum. If you name someone specifically, you're labeled as picking a fight or bullying, so we speak in broad, non-specific terms. Again, this is not limited to PF, it's just how open-enrollment forums work.

I'm absolutely not immune to this. Plenty of people may have been politely telling me to STFU, but I "knew" better, and assumed that suggestion was intended for someone else.


I'm actually a bit shocked at how much time I am spending on the administration and communication that goes on in the background.

Welcome to bureaucracy. It's uncomfortable at first, but eventually you'll just feel warm and want to go to sleep.


Recently, I had a realization about (at least some) SMEs. There was a thread involving one of the people frequently referenced as an SME, and he said his piece based on his experience, and there was a poster who kept asking questions, effectively wanting to debate what the SME-type said. I am positive that he meant nothing bad by it, and only wanted to understand better.

That's the crux of the problem. Secondary ignorance is only addressed by saying something stupid and subsequently being corrected. That's why I think it's an error to over-moderate threads and scream, "Get back in your lane!" to anyone outside the margins. They may be thinking in good faith and genuinely have no idea that what they're saying / proposing isn't pragmatic until someone explicitly addresses it. An institution is composed of individuals, and if individuals are never allowed to err, then the institutions they represent will be led astray.


My days of fighting are over. As are my days of being a paid armed professional. I made a conscious decision many years ago not to continue to teach or provide instruction as related to firearms and tactics while I was still considered an SME on tactical shooting and close quarters combat in my professional circles. When my kid was born, I made a conscious decision to leave the firearm/shooting "industry", and cut just about all personal and professional ties to the industry.

With all due respect, I think this is an egregious error. To most of us basement-dwelling keyboard commandos, what you've learned is an abstract concept we'll never encounter in practice. But to a small handful of folks that will one day know if all their training was worth it, your experience is invaluable. I sincerely hope you don't stop contributing.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

My days of fighting are over. As are my days of being a paid armed professional. I made a conscious decision many years ago not to continue to teach or provide instruction as related to firearms and tactics while I was still considered an SME on tactical shooting and close quarters combat in my professional circles. When my kid was born, I made a conscious decision to leave the firearm/shooting "industry", and cut just about all personal and professional ties to the industry. One of the few exceptions was PF.com.

All of this combined puts me on the fringe of relevance for maybe a few more months. After that, there will be little use for a Former Action Guy around here except for maybe the occasional snide comment or smart ass remark.

And while I wasn't a General Officer, Omar Bradley once made a statement that resonates well with me: "The best service a retired general can provide is to mothball his opinions along with his uniform".

I'll continue to respond/reply to any direct questions people may have for me specifically, but there is no shortage of people on this board as qualified, if not more so, to provide input on the narrow scope of topics where my experience has any relevance. I prefer to lurk and learn more these days as I branch out into shooting that isn't related to my former profession, rather than randomly toss in my two cents into a topic that someone else is able to provide better information.I don't think I agree with your assessment of your relevance but I have a TON of respect for people who draw a line regarding their own limitations and refuse to cross it. Even if I think they underestimated their own abilities.

Naturally, I have to wonder how many people with far less, and far less recent, experience happily leapt over that line, enthusiastically contributing opinions not worth a fraction of yours. The number must be staggering.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[whomever]

This is a problem, to some degree, on any forum I've ever seen, going back to usenet in the - gawd - 1980's.

I've always wondered why forum software doesn't implement a posting quota of some kind. For example, a new arrival gets 5 posts a month. If they seem to be posting 5 quality things a month, their quota could be bumped up to whatever. If not, the damage they do would at least be limited (or needlessly contentious people could lose their quota for a month, etc).

Since AFAIK it's never been implemented, I suppose there is some flaw I don't see.

[MistWolf]

I am not an SME on this forum, and this really doesn't apply. Sorry for chiming in and back to what the discussion should have been about.

I, for one, look forward to each of your posts ruminating about (among other subjects) revolvers, gunfighters and their histories. SME or not, you've made an impact even beyond this forum and outside the internet. I'm a nobody and it may not mean much, but you've earned my respect.

[octagon]

Chance No offense taken. I welcome the chance(see what I did there) to clarify and expand on my comments.

You're evidently a police officer, so what constitutes "non-adversarial policing"? Again, I'm not trying to be a dick, but some people simply don't respond to suggestive attitude adjustments.

You are correct and some people will never accept even the most delicately constructed suggestion or admonishment as an offense or direct attack of themselves. By non adversarial policing I mean when we see a person repeatedly asking the same basic question we could point out that "it has been asked and answered lets please move on" If 2 members are taking a discussion to personal levels,arguing or posting garbage that adds nothing of value to the thread topic a post stating" Chance and Octagon you guys are taking the thread off topic or arguing with each other. It isn't personal so either leave it alone or please take further discussion to PM " "Guys lets stay on topic please" If someone posts something that is just abuse or an attack with zero content of any relevance to the thread topic a member could simply state" That isn't helpful and adds nothing of value to the discussion"

You are correct I was a LEO and retired recently. I talked some hard core violent criminals into to cuffs and off to jail by being respectful but firm and keeping things as professional as possible. Sometimes I let my ego or they let theirs get in the way and even a person with a minor traffic offense turned into a knock down drag out fight to do the same thing. Nothing is guaranteed to work perfectly every time but there are too many posts/threads for a moderator(s) to catch every derailment in a timely manner. If a gentle corrective post leads to added offense then report the post to moderators and let it go.




Passive aggressive "I won't name any names" kind of posts often get taken by some as an attack on them when it may not even been directed at them and the person it was directed at may not have a clue that they are the problem.

Not naming names is matter of decorum. If you name someone specifically, you're labeled as picking a fight or bullying, so we speak in broad, non-specific terms. Again, this is not limited to PF, it's just how open-enrollment forums work.

I'm absolutely not immune to this. Plenty of people may have been politely telling me to STFU, but I "knew" better, and assumed that suggestion was intended for someone else.



Specifically identifying a problem post can be done by PM or Report post and both don't add divisiveness to the thread or any added posts nor are they done in a way to publicly expose the member. In both cases they can explain or save face without any other member being aware of the issue. Sometimes it works faster and is clearer when done directly by quoting the offensive post and thus member who posted it and clearly saying" That is unhelpful", "That is unnecessary" "Lets move on please" Again some people will take offense no matter who says what to them or will carry on being an idiot. However look at the last few threads that have been locked or several involving SMEs that were locked. They are multiple pages long and when locked most of the posts just prior to being locked aren't necessarily the offensive posts that caused the thread to be closed. Some posts I may find offensive and some you may find offensive but I don't. Either way if it ruins the experience for you or me it likely is doing the same for more members who didn't post or respond.

If you are the member that posted something offensive and didn't realize it or didn't realize it was as offensive as you meant it as sarcasm/snark then 3 other posts appear then I say "someone needs to be more sensitive" or "some people need to get a clue" Any of the people in the thread can think I meant it directed at them or the 3 people that posted in between your post and mine may think I directed it at them. Unnecessary miscommunication that can and does result in people not intended to feel offended.

tl;dr

Assholes don't always know they are assholes or don't care. If no one calls them out as being an asshole they will go on thinking the general statement that there are assholes is meant for anyone but them.

[LOKNLOD]

Since AFAIK it's never been implemented, I suppose there is some flaw I don't see.

It could drive down traffic. I don’t believe it’s the focused MO of this forum at all (originally or currently, and Tom is very transparent about what he does do in this regard), but websites and forums are often about growth, and traffic, and clicks, ad revenue, etc. on some level. I seem to remember some media conglomerate buying up enthusiast forums and running them for profit...

Just like anything that somebody wants to grow - your church, your city, whatever - once it gets a certain size it becomes the crowded hell you were probably trying to escape when you found it.

[GJM]

I am happy to read whatever SeanM writes on any topic.

[MVS]

I am happy to read whatever SeanM writes on any topic.

As am I. Frankly I am amazed that he feels just because he may not be on the very cutting edge of things that he doesn't have anything to offer. That of course is his decision, but I sure hope he knows how much what he has contributed is appreciated.

[BWT]

I am happy to read whatever SeanM writes on any topic.

My Mother-in-Law once told me about returning to normal after going through seasons of high stress (little sleep, lots of work, college for years); she explained that we're like a sponge sometimes. After We've been flattened out for a long time, when the pressure subsides, and we go back to ourselves after being removed from that environment.

I don't know how true that is but it seemed right at the time. I do feel like with Sean M's contributions to our country and other's (such as Surf's or Dagga's); as these guys retire I do find some satisfaction that their "spongy-ness" will return and they can just be themselves setting down the weighty responsibilities they've carried for a long time. I can't imagine the pressure of careers like theirs, but I'm happy for them to be doing hopefully more of the things they want to do these days and hopefully having fun doing it.

Personally, I enjoy the Sean M lawn mowing threads, etc. I miss the Dagga Boy Revolver threads. I'm glad for those guys.

I think Dagga Boy deserves protected status from the unwashed masses.

God Bless,

Brandon

[Totem Polar]

I retired a month ago, which honestly means I should be surrendering my SME title because I have no intention of ever firing another round in anger, and any experience I gained over my career is quickly becoming obsolete...

Dude, i can't "like" this post. There is a reason that emeritus professionals are held in such high esteem. Did Stanislavki’s acting experience cease to be relevant when he left the stage? Did the things Mikhail Baryshnikov had to say about dance start to break down and degrade when he retired from principal dancing and moved into other endeavors, even as the general standard for technical dance increased? Did Arnold’s thoughts on lifting to build mass become worthless as he moved from bodybuilding to acting to governing CA, and sports knowlege continued to move forward? Did Jim Cirillo suddenly become not worth listening to when he quit putting stick up men in the dirt with .38 k-frames and 12-bores? To all this, I strongly suggest the answer is "fuck no..."

Welcome to emeritus status. You don’t have to stay cutting edge to be of tremendous experiential value.

Now, if you simply want to put your energy and attention towards different endeavors, and intend to hang out on P-F mostly for fun and gun nerd grabassery, that’s way awesome; you’ve earned that too. Nobody is saying you have to live up to some ideal, or dish out wisdom for free. Just don’t deny that the accumulated wisdom exists, please.


As to to other SMEs, of whatever color: I’ll once again say thanks. This place has renewed my interest in training. I finally started BJJ largely due to a shift in priorities that I picked up here from folks like Craig, Cecil and Paul et al. Some words in a recommended post by Larry L helped me shave off the last 14 lbs I needed gone. The lifting thread will help me regain some of those pounds and put them where I want them. And don’t even get me started on little bits of life stuff I’ve picked up from almost everyone: some things that the blue twins (and I still think you should co-host that podcast) said and posted have improved my thinking; a few totally random words by guys like Sean M and Craig D have folded into my own personal tool box and improved my own teaching... I could go on. Some words that Geordie said in my thread about a close friend’s suicide were useful and comforting enough to me, but skyrocketed in value when passed through me to someone else who really needed them over the same issue. And so it goes.

I realize that last part is OT; the point being this: I’ve gained a ton of useful information and philosophy from many of the SMEs here. I don’t know how we should "improve" their experience going forward. I’m not sure their experience is ours to improve, ultimately. But we can be grateful. Maybe that’s enough. A little gratitude goes a long way. Frankly it’s definitely more important than a little "STFD, and STFU" applied towards those that don’t get it—and that has some worth too.

I dunno. If all the orange guys (minus Trump) and non-orange heavies were to drift away to other priorities, I’d still hang out here. I’d sure miss the input, and the people/personalities themselves though.

[StraitR]

I am happy to read whatever SeanM writes on any topic.

Absolutely. Especially combined with "the occasional snide comment or smart ass remark". I love the "occasional" part, like it's sporadic or something. :p

Tamara and Sean's unique style of dropping knowledge bombs juxtaposed with keen witty banter cannot be rivaled in terms of gems:hilarity ratio. I'm always left wanting more.

[KeithH]

A perfect example would be the following recent thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27704

As I stated (in part) in my closing post in there:



Many people think that others "just aren't getting it" when in fact they do, they just disagree. What some consider a "deep dive into minutiae" (or exuberance or excitement) others just see as needlessly argumentative and annoying.

There's a bunch more I should probably say, but I'm not certain I'll be able to do so right now in a manner I'd consider appropriate, so it will have to wait. Sorry.

OK, I went and read that whole thread. It was EXHAUSTING and exasperating. Thanks for the clarification.

[WDR]

While that is nice and all, the fact is that ain't how this place works.... [SNIP]

...and many others who have boat loads of practical street use of force experience who can provide some solid offset and balalnce to all the technical expertise here. Unfortunately, they carry the same knowledge status as the folks who have never done anything scarier than arrived home late and their mom forgot to leave the porch light on. Many of us have simply gone back to talking on the phone like we used to do. More positive exchanges, we benefit from those exchanges, but the downside is those conversations don't get shared with a ton of folks who could use that same information or allow them to absorb a bunch of input from folks who may not agree but are having a respectful debate based on their experiences.


I'm a relative noob to posting here on this forum, and closer to porch light side of things for certain, but I just want to say, I've been lurking here a long time, and have gleaned a lot of useful info from your threads and postings (revolver stuff in particular), alongside those from other folks ( SME or not), and I am grateful that we have the internet to spur each other into debate and interaction. Some forums become echo chambers where debate is quashed ... I have not seen that happening here. I have seen some names come and go here, and I totally get it, when a real SME (title or no) gets tired of beating their head against a brick wall and decides to take a break, sometimes permanently and to the detriment of all who read and post here.

I'd like to stop there, and just say thanks to everyone that contributes to this forum in a positive manner. I've learned a lot, and improved my shooting by applying things I've learned here. I try to keep my trap shut, unless I have something useful to contribute.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I'm not a designated SME here (what does that pay, by the way??), but I am an old guy with some experience in various venues and circumstances. Like Tom Givens and others, I'm busy as hell as a retired LEO and never realized how much more I'd have to do after I left the job. I stand in awe of some of the technical shooting gurus here like Gabe White and know that I need to stay in my lane regarding some of the esoteric topics they discuss. Darryl and I come from the brutally practical world of confronting folks that most of the population cannot wrap their heads around the existence of, let alone deal with them. I am qualified to talk there, but many, if not most of the folks here consciously or unconsciously overlay fast split times, etc. with success in fights....and that ain't the solution. Darryl and I talk with lots of guys with the real "been there, done that" t-shirts and all of them acknowledge that shooting skills are critical, but split times and other competitively driven esoterica aren't what carries the day. When that's brought up (and let's see if somebody fires up in the answers), lots of folks get butt hurt and start what I call "blue pill" discussions about standards, speeds, split times, etc. that will win a fight for sure. I've noted it in the "Raw Speed" thread. Folks are hunting a "pill" that will make sure they win. There's not one and that truth is scary as fuck.

When I see folks hunting the "pill" I now just shake my head and talk to Darryl or Ken Hackathorn and used to call up Pat Rogers and we'd discuss what really won fights. By the way, I stopped by and spent some time with Pat today at Quantico National Cemetary. It was sobering and solemn. He won at least six fights with a .38 Special revolver (which just ruins that split time topic).

Nothing wins a fight or shooting for sure and that's what scares the hell out of lots of folks. Good fundamentals, conducted at realistic speed, before the other guy gets a telling round into you is the secret. Truthfully, in typical pistol fights, there's more luck in it than any of us want to admit to also.

Hope this isn't a ramble, but the truth is, most matches that prepare us for a fight would be very boring and most of the work we need to be doing is just the same.

[LittleLebowski]

Neither Tom or I have any input on who gets the SME title.

[LittleLebowski]

When I see folks hunting the "pill" I now just shake my head and talk to Darryl or Ken Hackathorn and used to call up Pat Rogers and we'd discuss what really won fights. By the way, I stopped by and spent some time with Pat today at Quantico National Cemetary. It was sobering and solemn. He won at least six fights with a .38 Special revolver (which just ruins that split time topic).

Nothing wins a fight or shooting for sure and that's what scares the hell out of lots of folks. Good fundamentals, conducted at realistic speed, before the other guy gets a telling round into you is the secret. Truthfully, in typical pistol fights, there's more luck in it than any of us want to admit to also.

Hope this isn't a ramble, but the truth is, most matches that prepare us for a fight would be very boring and most of the work we need to be doing is just the same.

I’ve spent all week in close company with two of Uncle Pat’s closest friends and while I feel like Pat and I were close friends for about three years, I’ve learned about some gunfights that Pat didn’t speak about publicly. We truly are diminished by his passing onto Valhalla, I miss him. I do like to think that he would enjoy hearing about his friends’ hunting and shooting experiences out here in Wyoming, though.

[GJM]

Wayne, I may be misunderstanding something in your post, and hope you can clarify it. For some years, Hardwired Tactical has advocated “two second standards,” and I took that to mean you taught that there is a pretty short window available to solve a problem. With your comments here, it is unclear to me whether you are modifying that belief, or just restating that as long as you can solve the problem in two seconds, extra speed is unnecessary?

I think you make a great point as to luck. When I think of various scrapes I have been into in the air and on the ground, luck plays a lot bigger part in the outcome than many of us want to recognize.

[Casual Friday]

One of the problems, in my opinion, is that I don't know what subject matter some of the subject matter experts are subject matter experts in. I know SeanM was a face shooter, I know Doc is a ballistics guy, Tom Givens is a retired cop and renowned trainer, I know Southnarc's background. There's a few others though who I have no idea, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I was reading old threads some time ago and came across a SME that I wasn't familiar with so I clicked his profile and I couldn't find any bio info. I wasn't looking for deep dark secrets, just a brief explanation would do.

At times I've probably been guilty of contributing to the slow downward descent that PF has taken but I sincerely hope I haven't been disrespectful to any. Tom_Jones has done an exceptional job with PF since we lost Todd, but I think most would agree it's not the same since Todd passed, nor will it ever be. I know what it's like to be the second owner of something that was successful before I was involved, I purchased a business recently, so what Tom has had to deal with is not lost on me. PF has helped me become a better shooter, and has given me a lot of different perspectives to consider that I've never even heard mentioned elsewhere. This is the only firearms related forum I visit anymore, and I'm thankful for the SME's and the just plain ol' knowledgeable folks who've contributed so much over the years.

[SouthNarc]

Neither Tom or I have any input on who gets the SME title.


That's not exactly true Baxter. I'm not trying to pick a fight when I say that but no forum member who was designated a SME by Todd Green and who's name pops up in orange, has any forum software power to elect SMEs and bestow that title. All the SME title does is give us access to a sub-forum where we can talk. That hasn't been active in well over six months BTW.

Personally I've observed the forum membership bitching about the "SME situation" since PFestivus was born and I'm kinda sick of it. People bitch when SMEs do participate and then bitch when they don't.

I wish Tom would just scrub the idea of it which he most assuredly has the power to do. All an orange titled SME designator means now is that Todd Green thought that person deserved the title and bestowed it. Nothing more. The only reason to keep it around is out of some memory of him. I think I can speak for every designated SME when I say they'd all be fine with the designator dissolving as most like myself are barely or non-participatory.

[SouthNarc]

Thanks Tom I think that's a good move.

[Dave J]

These forums were a means for me to "pay it forward" for those older, heavily experienced guys who helped me when I was younger, and throughout this journey. At times, you begin to find it is not worth the effort and frustration for folks to take your experience and basically discount it as irrelevant.

DB, if it's any consolation, I'm sure there's quite a few of us who were paying close attention to what you had to say without ever responding, and are now carrying HK LEMs, practicing failure drills, mounting red dots on shotguns, and watching prices on N-frames.

I'm sure I'm not the only one. So, thank you.

[Dagga Boy]

Wayne, I may be misunderstanding something in your post, and hope you can clarify it. For some years, Hardwired Tactical has advocated “two second standards,” and I took that to mean you taught that there is a pretty short window available to solve a problem. With your comments here, it is unclear to me whether you are modifying that belief, or just restating that as long as you can solve the problem in two seconds, extra speed is unnecessary?

I think you make a great point as to luck. When I think of various scrapes I have been into in the air and on the ground, luck plays a lot bigger part in the outcome than many of us want to recognize.

We use the 2 second standards for a plethora of things. Find maximum speed, find 100% guaranteed speed, some options on targeting, etc. My personal best is 11 hits in the black (anything out of the black one B8 is a DQ) in under two seconds from a slightly depressed ready at 5 yards. Figure out the splits on that and it is pretty good. Luck had a huge role on that as it was actually a demo in front of a SWAT team of shooting too fast. Not too fast for competition or technical shooting, but too fast for threat and target assessment. We teach to shoot as fast as you can assess. This requires a technical speed balance with perception and reaction speed. It's a whole package, not just a "drill" with a number.

Back to the original topic. Hating to complain with no solutions. My suggestion to Tom and the Admin here would be use of established folks with specific expertise to small bite moderate the sub forums in their own realm of the world. This allows for solid thread direction, guidance to stay on topic, experience based input where needed, and facilitation of solid discussion. Even busy folks could likely look at one small sub section daily to monitor what is going on. That was the key to success in many of he places that had great forums for education, versus the typical bubble gun gun forums. Somewhere between the old rigid 10-8 forums, to old Lightfighter and pre drama M4, and ARFCOM, there is a balance point that works. Hopefully, it can be found here.

[Artemas2]

These forums were a means for me to "pay it forward" for those older, heavily experienced guys who helped me when I was younger, and throughout this journey. At times, you begin to find it is not worth the effort and frustration for folks to take your experience and basically discount it as irrelevant.


DB, if it's any consolation, I'm sure there's quite a few of us who were paying close attention to what you had to say without ever responding, and are now carrying HK LEMs, practicing failure drills, mounting red dots on shotguns, and watching prices on N-frames.

I'm sure I'm not the only one. So, thank you.

So much what Dave says.
I actively try to not post here because I am aware of how little I know. I do however read and take notes from some from the many excellent discussions that have occurred I feel fortunate to have found P-F early in my shooting journey enough so that I was able to by-pass much of the bad advice that plagues this industry, saving time, money, and frustration. If the "replies" to "Views" ratio on a given page is any consolation, there are those who listen and learn.

Thank you to all the "SMEs" (and some non-"SMEs") who are able to take some time from the busy lives and share what you have learned and experienced.

[Chance]

I was reading old threads some time ago and came across a SME that I wasn't familiar with so I clicked his profile and I couldn't find any bio info.

I've always been of the opinion everyone should put some blurb about their background and/or job in their profile, so you have a sense of who you're talking to. I don't know if it should be a mandatory Lightfighter-type rule, but knowing a little about someone is really helpful when you're trying to frame their comments.

That's the main reason I don't go to forums for anything anymore: I have no idea who I'm talking to. I've been around PF so long, I have a pretty good feel for who folks are, and I've met a number offline. Elsewhere, it's an "On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog" thing.


Since AFAIK it's never been implemented, I suppose there is some flaw I don't see.

Well, if you're trying to establish a dialog about technical information, that'd be impeded by a strict posting limit. And we've had plenty of folks with real-world experience that wandered onto the forum somehow or other. Your time as a member on PF doesn't really reflect your value to the community, in my opinion.

[JV_]

My suggestion to Tom and the Admin here would be use of established folks with specific expertise to small bite moderate the sub forums in their own realm of the world. This allows for solid thread direction, guidance to stay on topic, experience based input where needed, and facilitation of solid discussion.

Being an SME does not mean you're good at forum moderation. Having been on the moderation side of things at PF, but not in recent years, I would have some serious reservation about this type moderation. I can cite examples of where this goes badly, but I'd violate the inter-forum war/baiting rules. And frankly, I'm not too interested in drama.

[LSP552]

More people need to understand that honorable people can disagree honorably. We all learn by processing new ideas, keeping the relative for us and disregarding the things that aren't relative for our ability, environment, or needs. The problem is some folks like to argue and have the last word instead of honestly evaluating what is offered.

A big part of the problem is needing a base of knowledge to evaluate against, and some people don't know what they don't know. Not all opinions are equal. PF has a vast array of knowledgeable people who are willing to share their thoughts and experiences. Honest discussion is always welcome in my book. Hell, I'm becoming a Beretta guy by pushing my boundaries and listening to others with more experience with that platform.

When I participated in a SIG pistol centric forum, I used a signature line that said: "An opinion without personal experience is wishful thinking". I need to remind myself of that occasionally because it helps me stay in my lane.

[EVP]

I totally understand that SMEs have many more important things going on in life then discussing content on an online forum for no compensation.

The SME and staff at PF have and still do contribute fantastic info and share a wealth of knowledge that the vast majority of users benefit from. To echo kinda what ASH said, it would suck if a few bad apples ruined it.


I totally get it if SMEs don’t care to participate but maybe a dedicated subsection for PF supporters that SMEs can just post(like a reference section).

[Totem Polar]

One last thought—at least, out of me—that I don’t believe has been explicitly stated yet: a lot of us enjoy our “SME/actress/model/whatever” people’s posts just because we like the poster. It’s not always about sponging knowledge: often, I just enjoy the online personalities. Dagga and SN are both great examples of this, albeit hardly the only ones. Sometimes, it’s just about another cool dude with a similar outlook on life telling a good story. All work and no play, and all that.

JMO.

[Redhat]

There are some people (SME's included), here and in other forums, who are good at explaining their thoughts and reasoning in ways that make sense to me. Then there are others who may post on a subject and seem to expect that to be the end of it without any challenging questions allowed or they get offended. I have had some good conversations here with the first type and look forward to most of what they post.

The second type...well if they are not into engaging in meaningful discussion, then I don't see how much can be learned from that approach as I just happen to be one of those people who learns best by questioning so I ask a lot of "what if's" sometimes to help work things out in my own head. So whether SME's are labeled or not, I think most of us know who they are and I'd just like to thank many (labeled or not) of them for their patience and indulgence in helping me find some answers. Their participation here is the main reason I visit

[Surf]

Some thoughts and will address some questions without quoting people.

First thanks to Tom and I agree with nixing the SME titles. This has been discussed in the SME group and all were in agreement from what I heard in the past. I have shared that title on other forums and it has not really been a good thing for me in that I actually found myself participating less because of the associated BS that goes with it.

I think I was the last and maybe only SME that was voted in and not given that title by Todd. Todd had already started pulling back at that time. I agreed to the title out of a commitment to Todd but was apprehensive when accepting it due to reasons above. I was also pulling away from the internet and my social media interactions, so it was not an easy decision. At the time that I entered, it was my understanding that nominations needed to be made with 100% SME agreement to vote another individual to hold that title. Vetting needed to be obvious. Problem being is that the lack of participation by SME made the voting process pretty much non-existent after me. As SN mentions, our forum hasn't had activity in months. So again good move by Tom.

There are several people who post here who I 110% think was qualified to hold the SME moniker and I too read everything they post.

It was my understanding that an SME needed to outline their expertise in their bio (without giving up critical info) and I only added this info because of that rule. I wouldn't normally fill that in a bio and share that info.

I think that SME can be a good thing for forums, but it is a tricky thing. I do know many people over the years who relish or seek such titles and are not the ones that should be in those positions, to begin with. I have also seen forums where people easily get big heads with titles and see how group mob mentality can be a problem. It is a tricky thing to balance and moderation or staffing a forum is not something I would ever do again, but it is an important and difficult job.

Thanks to everyone here, this is still my favorite forum and I will visit as time allows.

[TGS]

Sorry if I missed this.....but Tom, do you have access to pistol-training.com? If it's possible, perhaps you could encourage participation from the SME cadre (or formerly known as, at this point) to write articles. That way they can get their thoughts down on a particular topic and disseminate knowledge, but do without the back'n'forth of threads.

PT has not been active, which is a shame because there's some really good articles over there. Every now and then I go reread some.

[spinmove_]

Sorry if I missed this.....but Tom, do you have access to pistol-training.com? If it's possible, perhaps you could encourage participation from the SME cadre (or formerly known as, at this point) to write articles. That way they can get their thoughts down on a particular topic and disseminate knowledge, but do without the back'n'forth of threads.

PT has not been active, which is a shame because there's some really good articles over there. Every now and then I go reread some.

I agree with this. If you've got access, Tom, please don't let pistol-training.com die like Modern Service Weapons essentially has. Unless of course that's what Todd wanted or would have wanted. I think if the SMEs or those we consider SMEs posted their thoughts to various forum discussions that we have in the form of articles on pt.com that'd go a long way towards cutting down the noise on certain juicy bits of wisdom that would normally get drowned out.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[hufnagel]

Sorry if I missed this.....but Tom, do you have access to pistol-training.com? If it's possible, perhaps you could encourage participation from the SME cadre (or formerly known as, at this point) to write articles. That way they can get their thoughts down on a particular topic and disseminate knowledge, but do without the back'n'forth of threads.

PT has not been active, which is a shame because there's some really good articles over there. Every now and then I go reread some.

With regards to my prior comment about posting and locking that I made in this thread, what TGS is recommending is a much better idea, and withdraw my suggestion and endorse his.

[DocGKR]

At a minimum, I would like it to be curated and left intact. Perhaps it could also be updated if TLG's family desires to continue his legacy.

[SeriousStudent]

I'm not a designated SME here (what does that pay, by the way??), but I am an old guy with some experience in various venues and circumstances. Like Tom Givens and others, I'm busy as hell as a retired LEO and never realized how much more I'd have to do after I left the job. I stand in awe of some of the technical shooting gurus here like Gabe White and know that I need to stay in my lane regarding some of the esoteric topics they discuss. Darryl and I come from the brutally practical world of confronting folks that most of the population cannot wrap their heads around the existence of, let alone deal with them. I am qualified to talk there, but many, if not most of the folks here consciously or unconsciously overlay fast split times, etc. with success in fights....and that ain't the solution. Darryl and I talk with lots of guys with the real "been there, done that" t-shirts and all of them acknowledge that shooting skills are critical, but split times and other competitively driven esoterica aren't what carries the day. When that's brought up (and let's see if somebody fires up in the answers), lots of folks get butt hurt and start what I call "blue pill" discussions about standards, speeds, split times, etc. that will win a fight for sure. I've noted it in the "Raw Speed" thread. Folks are hunting a "pill" that will make sure they win. There's not one and that truth is scary as fuck.

When I see folks hunting the "pill" I now just shake my head and talk to Darryl or Ken Hackathorn and used to call up Pat Rogers and we'd discuss what really won fights. By the way, I stopped by and spent some time with Pat today at Quantico National Cemetary. It was sobering and solemn. He won at least six fights with a .38 Special revolver (which just ruins that split time topic).

Nothing wins a fight or shooting for sure and that's what scares the hell out of lots of folks. Good fundamentals, conducted at realistic speed, before the other guy gets a telling round into you is the secret. Truthfully, in typical pistol fights, there's more luck in it than any of us want to admit to also.

Hope this isn't a ramble, but the truth is, most matches that prepare us for a fight would be very boring and most of the work we need to be doing is just the same.

I had the great pleasure of having dinner tonight with Cecil Burch, Dagga Boy and Jackdog, along with several other kind folks. Wayne, your most excellent post was one of the things we discussed.

Luck is indeed scary, as is random chance. And hard work is exactly that - hard. People want a deterministic outcome - "If I do X when my assailant does Y, I shall prevail." But sometimes Buddha smiles upon us, and other times Buddha turns his head.

Cecil brought up a great quote: Some times an angel pisses in the pan of your musket, and you are doomed.

I appreciate so very much all here who have taught me in the past, and continue to offer their help.

[Kimura]

I'm not a designated SME here (what does that pay, by the way??), but I am an old guy with some experience in various venues and circumstances. Like Tom Givens and others, I'm busy as hell as a retired LEO and never realized how much more I'd have to do after I left the job. I stand in awe of some of the technical shooting gurus here like Gabe White and know that I need to stay in my lane regarding some of the esoteric topics they discuss. Darryl and I come from the brutally practical world of confronting folks that most of the population cannot wrap their heads around the existence of, let alone deal with them. I am qualified to talk there, but many, if not most of the folks here consciously or unconsciously overlay fast split times, etc. with success in fights....and that ain't the solution. Darryl and I talk with lots of guys with the real "been there, done that" t-shirts and all of them acknowledge that shooting skills are critical, but split times and other competitively driven esoterica aren't what carries the day. When that's brought up (and let's see if somebody fires up in the answers), lots of folks get butt hurt and start what I call "blue pill" discussions about standards, speeds, split times, etc. that will win a fight for sure. I've noted it in the "Raw Speed" thread. Folks are hunting a "pill" that will make sure they win. There's not one and that truth is scary as fuck.

When I see folks hunting the "pill" I now just shake my head and talk to Darryl or Ken Hackathorn and used to call up Pat Rogers and we'd discuss what really won fights. By the way, I stopped by and spent some time with Pat today at Quantico National Cemetary. It was sobering and solemn. He won at least six fights with a .38 Special revolver (which just ruins that split time topic).

Nothing wins a fight or shooting for sure and that's what scares the hell out of lots of folks. Good fundamentals, conducted at realistic speed, before the other guy gets a telling round into you is the secret. Truthfully, in typical pistol fights, there's more luck in it than any of us want to admit to also.

Hope this isn't a ramble, but the truth is, most matches that prepare us for a fight would be very boring and most of the work we need to be doing is just the same.

Not even close to being ramble. Great post. Staff, how about putting this post in the reference section? It's the best piece of information/advice I've seen on the internet in a long time.

[Kimura]

For as far as SME participation goes; most people have lives outside of an internet firearms forum. Personally, though I'm not an SME, work and other things take up most of my day. I do scan the forum regularly for anything that I think might interest me, but I don't read most of what's written. And I do admit that I look for posts by certain individuals and often skip the rest. I'm also less interesting in this forum now as compared to when Todd ran it. I liked the style, the purpose and the people that were part of the forum back then. Putting it simply, it has changed. Forums change/grow, whether it's better or not depends on the individual. Everyone, including "SME"s get to decide if it still works for them or not and how much he/she wants to participate.

[Odin Bravo One]

I like Tom's solution. Remove the title and whatever BS understanding of the title that came with it.

This should easily prevent any future "SME" confusion or misunderstandings on the boards.

[orionz06]

At a minimum, I would like it to be curated and left intact. Perhaps it could also be updated if TLG's family desires to continue his legacy.

There are surely a few people who could contribute some guest articles on things that have advanced in the last few years.

[LittleLebowski]

That's not exactly true Baxter. I'm not trying to pick a fight when I say that but no forum member who was designated a SME by Todd Green and who's name pops up in orange, has any forum software power to elect SMEs and bestow that title. All the SME title does is give us access to a sub-forum where we can talk. That hasn't been active in well over six months BTW.

Personally I've observed the forum membership bitching about the "SME situation" since PFestivus was born and I'm kinda sick of it. People bitch when SMEs do participate and then bitch when they don't.

I wish Tom would just scrub the idea of it which he most assuredly has the power to do. All an orange titled SME designator means now is that Todd Green thought that person deserved the title and bestowed it. Nothing more. The only reason to keep it around is out of some memory of him. I think I can speak for every designated SME when I say they'd all be fine with the designator dissolving as most like myself are barely or non-participatory.

I'm just catching up here and posting simply to make sure the air is clear between you and I, but I think we're in agreement, sort of. The way Todd explained it to the Staff is that the SMEs are the only people to nominate and then vote for other SMEs and the Staff never had any input on SMEs to my knowledge. It sounds like that nomination/voting process never happened after Todd chose the SMEs. Also, the Staff with Admin powers absolutely do have the power to designate any title/sub-forum access, like you said.

[SouthNarc]

I'm just catching up here and posting simply to make sure the air is clear between you and I, but I think we're in agreement, sort of. The way Todd explained it to the Staff is that the SMEs are the only people to nominate and then vote for other SMEs and the Staff never had any input on SMEs to my knowledge. It sounds like that nomination/voting process never happened after Todd chose the SMEs. Also, the Staff with Admin powers absolutely do have the power to designate any title/sub-forum access, like you said.

We're good buddy.���� And you're right. After Todd passed none of the SMEs nominated any more.

SMEs were important to Todd with the culture he wished to establish at P-F. I never cared about the bestowment but Todd was my friend and I wanted to support him.

[Odin Bravo One]

SMEs were important to Todd with the culture he wished to establish at P-F. I never cared about the bestowment but Todd was my friend and I wanted to support him.

Yup.