Rim fire trainer for your regular pistol

[GJM]

A few days ago, I went to get a .22 pistol to attach a suppressor to. Looking at several different models, I saw a PPQ .22, the Tactical model (meaning threaded). It felt very close to my 9mm PPQ models, and was reasonably priced, so I bought it. Once home, I realized it fit perfectly in my Blade Tech OWB and JM George appendix holsters.

Got to the range with it this morning, and got it zeroed -- a process made easier by the adjustable rear sight. By the day's end, I have shot 700 rounds through it at steel, Garcia dot drills, Bill drills and accelerators. It was so much fun, that it was hard to stop. Afterwards, I grabbed my 9mm PPQ pistols, and other than realizing I needed to grip them harder, all that work with the .22 was extremely helpful. I then remembered Bill Rogers telling me that after instructing his Beginner class, that involved multiple days of .22 shooting, the next week he would shoot his best scores in his Int/Adv class. He went on to tell me that he would have the Int/Adv class shoot .22, as it is so helpful, but that many Advanced egos would not pay to,go to a class to shoot a .22. When you take the concussion of the centerfire out of the equation, there is nothing to mask trigger imperfections.

I am looking forward to many thousands of rounds of PPQ .22 practice over coming days and weeks.

[schüler]

Also a stellar choice for varmints, kids and first timer shooters, especially if the next step is the 9mm PPQ.

[flyrodr]

My favorite squirrel gun is a Ruger .22/.45 with a red dot and suppressor. Nice and accurate, but unfortunately for training purposes, it bears NO resemblance to my normal carry gun.

[SeriousStudent]

I have had a Gen3 G19 frame with an Advantage Arms .22 slide for some time. When I added a can to it, it became my favorite teaching gun.

Same trigger press and sights as a G19, but barely any recoil. I found that the Federal and CCI subsonics would cycle the action, but not the S&B ones.

Starting a new shooter with that, and just wearing eye pro works very well.

And it's mucho, mucho fun for all.

[orionz06]

I have had a Gen3 G19 frame with an Advantage Arms .22 slide for some time. When I added a can to it, it became my favorite teaching gun.


This! I love working back and forth between a SIRT and AA G17 to really dial things in. When we jump to center fire they're shocked that they can hit things with ease.

I haven't worked with a 22 as much as I should but accuracy and the like were very good with it. Now that ammo prices have been down and I've got some 22 accumulated I may rethink this.

[GJM]

For the next month, I am going to add a bunch of PPQ rimfire to the program, and evaluate how much it helps.

[Clobbersaurus]

Reading Ben Stoeger's training journal on Brian Enos forum, he was a big fan of a 22lr conversion for his Beretta's early on in his journal. I think he's since abandoned it, but I've been considering it as a viable option to cheaply increase my training volume next season.

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper said: "You can learn about 80% of what you need to know with a .22."

I would hate to be without my Colt ACE gun and CZ Kadet conversion.

I have avoided rapid fire with them, figuring it would give me funny ideas about recoil control. I shoot them mostly on the draw and in one shot per target transitions.

[farscott]

I do most of my training (well over ninety percent) with .22 pistols, revolvers, and rifles. Not only does the lack of recoil show all of the flaws in my technique, the quiet report makes for less fatigue. I use everything from Ruger Standard-pattern pistols to a S&W M617 revolver.

Not to mention, .22 shooting is fun. Shooting Dot Torture with a .22 at ever increasing distances is both fun and challenging and it translates to better performance with the P30. I have learned a lot about my draw and first shot (how bad it is) on Dots 2, 3, and 4 with my ten-shot M617.

[orionz06]

I've been waiting on some cash to grab a pair of P-07's and then remembered that these (https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/3268/Accessories/Conversion+Kits/CZ-USA+P07+KADET+ADAPTER+22LR+10RD) were available.


Might be useful on the get go for sure.

[LSP552]

I found the .22 top end for my P226 very useful for everything except recoil control. Now that I'm becoming a Beretta guy......

[spinmove_]

I've thought about getting a dedicated G19 lower and slapping an AA .22LR upper on it to have something I can shoot .22LR with. I may have to look into doing this sooner rather than later.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[GJM]

I found the .22 top end for my P226 very useful for everything except recoil control. Now that I'm becoming a Beretta guy......

I was shooting a bunch of Bill drills with the .22 PPQ, and when I went back to the 9mm, after the second shot, I realized that I needed to grip harder and that happened immediately. What I did notice, was how great my trigger control was with the PPQ 9 on Bill drills, after an afternoon with the .22.

I think the lack of recoil is precisely what makes the .22 so valuable, as recoil can mask trigger imperfections that are laid bare with the .22. Having a .22 equivalent that feels so similar may become a consideration for me going forward.

[taadski]

I think the lack of recoil is precisely what makes the .22 so valuable, as recoil can mask trigger imperfections that are laid bare with the .22.

Can't the same can be said for dry fire vs. .22 too. ;)


I’ve long been a fan of .22 as a teaching and training tool. And having a .22 version of your carry, duty or match pistol, so much the better. For a long time, it was a notable consideration when looking at a pistol as part of a complete ’system’ for me. These days, maybe not as much though.

The last 3 or 4 years, I’ve moved away from using the .22 kits as extensively. Mostly because I don’t find it does much for the dedicated user that can’t be accomplished with dry fire. And at the same time it has a bunch of convenience and cost drawbacks (ie- it’s costs *some* money and can’t be done in my living room. ;))

I certainly won’t be selling my kits, and I still use them occasionally, but I get a lot more bang for my buck convenience, time, and training benefit-wise out of a dedicated dry fire session. And If I’m going to spend the time and effort getting my stands and steel and props loaded up and down to the range, I’m likely going to spend that time shooting my centerfire training ammunition, that's all.

Just my 2 cents at this particular juncture. :p

And because discussions without pitchers are difficult for my caffeine addled mind sometimes, here is a photo of the .22 next to my dedicated dry fire pistol.


https://i.imgur.com/M5t5kqY.jpg

[GJM]

Not aimed at you personally, but as a general observation, it is really easy to kid yourself as to your trigger control when dry firing.

My PPQ .22 times are spot on my PPQ 9mm times on most drills, excepting things like Bill drills where the .22 is a touch faster for me. The .22 really seemed to help the last few days, but only time will tell as to whether it holds my interest longer term.

[Screwball]

I like the idea of a rimfire trainer... but shy of the CZ Kadet kit, I really don’t see too many that are reliable enough for my liking. Had a Ciener kit for my Beretta, and almost bought one for my P228... but too many horror stories kept the money in my wallet.

The CZ kit, was definitely a good buy.

[taadski]

Not aimed at you personally, but as a general observation, it is really easy to kid yourself as to your trigger control when dry firing.

Yes.


I think there are many elements that we can kid ourselves with in dry fire and live fire both. I think that in order to make either profitable, its keenly important to be paying attention. I think dry fire is such a powerful tool because, as you noted above in reference to the .22, there isn't the distraction (or as much of one) to stand in the way of our seeing the manifestations of our errors. The *attention* to these details (visually especially) is what allows us to self coach and not rely exclusively on the hole in the target or the ding of the steel to know we're doing things correctly.

I know you already know the above, but figured I'd post it anyway since you're pretending not to like dry fire this week. :D I DO think .22 is a nice middle ground between dry fire and full caliber live fire though.

[MGW]

When I catch myself getting snatchy with the trigger I break out the 22/45 for awhile. My trigger control improves and I also feel like my ability to track the sights under recoil improves.

One of these days I'm going to shoot a steel challenge match with a 22.

I want GJM to put 100k rounds though his PPQ 22. If it holds up I'll buy one [emoji57] On that note, are magazines available for them now? Seems like they were hard to find for awhile.

[GJM]

When I catch myself getting snatchy with the trigger I break out the 22/45 for awhile. My trigger control improves and I also feel like my ability to track the sights under recoil improves.

One of these days I'm going to shoot a steel challenge match with a 22.

I want GJM to put 100k rounds though his PPQ 22. If it holds up I'll buy one [emoji57] On that note, are magazines available for them now? Seems like they were hard to find for awhile.

Mags seem available, although the five inch model with a fiber front seems scarce now. I am at about 1,000 rounds, and so far, so good. 100,000 hmm.

[SamAdams]

I have had a Gen3 G19 frame with an Advantage Arms .22 slide for some time. When I added a can to it, it became my favorite teaching gun.

Same trigger press and sights as a G19, but barely any recoil. I found that the Federal and CCI subsonics would cycle the action, but not the S&B ones.

Starting a new shooter with that, and just wearing eye pro works very well.

And it's mucho, mucho fun for all.


So I take it that current Advantage Arms conversions are good-to-go ? I have one for a G20sf 10mm frame that I've had for awhile. I'd like to pick up one for a G19 now. Thanks

[45dotACP]

So I take it that current Advantage Arms conversions are good-to-go ? I have one for a G20sf 10mm frame that I've had for awhile. I'd like to pick up one for a G19 now. ThanksMine doesn't work with the bulk pack stuff...but the quality .22 ammo cycles it just fine.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Malamute]

In the dark past, when I hadnt shot or carried the 1911 in a while, Id shoot a brick or two of 22s through the conversion unit and be fairly well up to speed again compared to not shooting as much. It was also the days when I loaded everything on a single stage press, so shooting that much 45 at a time wasnt likely. Dont know the ratios, but Ive always shot far more 22 than anything else for general practice and fun. It used to be cheap to shoot 22s a lot. Not quite so much now, but still better, and no time spent at the reloading bench.

[SAWBONES]

While I'm reasonably well set as regards .22LR semiautomatic pistol options for mimicing centerfire semiauto training, I've not so far found much by way of currently-available .22LR DA revolvers which have trigger actions close to those of quality centerfire DA revolvers; all seem to have harder, "stacky" trigger pulls.

I'm sure the current Smith 617 & maybe some of the older Colts (like the Diamondback) would be good choices, but I'm looking for something a bit less pricey.

Anyone have experience with a good current DA .22LR revolver that he can recommend as a trainer for centerfire DA revolvers?

[SamAdams]

Anybody have a favorite online vendor to buy the Advantage Arms conversion unit from ? I thought I got my G20 unit from Midway but that was a few years ago and I don't recall for sure. They don't carry them now. Thanks.

[Jim Watson]

I've not so far found much by way of currently-available .22LR DA revolvers which have trigger actions close to those of quality centerfire DA revolvers; all seem to have harder, "stacky" trigger pulls.

I'm sure the current Smith 617 & maybe some of the older Colts (like the Diamondback) would be good choices, but I'm looking for something a bit less pricey.

Anyone have experience with a good current DA .22LR revolver that he can recommend as a trainer for centerfire DA revolvers?

Problem is, it takes a harder blow to fire a rimfire than a centerfire. So the mainspring is going to be stiffer anyhow, which shows in a harder pull and contributes to stacking.
Your best bet would be to haunt the stores, shows, and sale sites for a sound but maybe not pretty K22.

[Morbidbattlecry]

I'd love to get on for my 17.3 but some of those conversions are close to 500 dollars. AA conversions are virtually non-existent at the moment. I wish glock would do a .22.

[SeriousStudent]

This! I love working back and forth between a SIRT and AA G17 to really dial things in. When we jump to center fire they're shocked that they can hit things with ease.

I haven't worked with a 22 as much as I should but accuracy and the like were very good with it. Now that ammo prices have been down and I've got some 22 accumulated I may rethink this.

Indeed. The dual lasers on the SIRT make for a very helpful diagnostic tool for me.

I'm nobody special, and have no great skills. I just coach a few new shooters every now and then, and have found these tools to be helpful in that effort.

[Malamute]

Problem is, it takes a harder blow to fire a rimfire than a centerfire. So the mainspring is going to be stiffer anyhow, which shows in a harder pull and contributes to stacking.
Your best bet would be to haunt the stores, shows, and sale sites for a sound but maybe not pretty K22.

Agree with the conclusion, but I believe in the K frame guns, the mainsprings are the same, so they should be similar trigger pull feel. The J frame Smith 22s never had as good of a trigger pull as a K frame.

No experience on the current Ruger DA 22s to compare. Ive only done S&W DA 22s, and one Colt Diamondback in the era that they were shooter grade guns. Think I sold mine for about $225 in the mid 80s. :( I think the Smith K-22s had better trigger pulls.

[Jim Watson]

Factory K22 and K38 springs are the same, but you can't mess with the .22 like you can a centerfire.
Not that I feel a need to, my .22 Combat Masterpiece is just fine.

I also briefly owned a Diamondback and saw no reason to stick with it.

[willie]

My father started me on a Crossman .22 pellet pistol at age 12. At 14 he handed me a Hi Standard .22 revolver. At 15 he gave me a Hi Standard .22 target pistol. At 16 he gave me a pristine Walther P38. I'll be 70 soon. I had instruction along the way and "burned up" barrels and ammo with these handguns. My level of marksmanship is directly tied to a pellet pistol, .22 l.r. handguns, and a WW2 service pistol.

[Malamute]

In the dark past, when I hadnt shot or carried the 1911 in a while, Id shoot a brick or two of 22s through the conversion unit and be fairly well up to speed again compared to not shooting as much. It was also the days when I loaded everything on a single stage press, so shooting that much 45 at a time wasnt likely. Dont know the ratios, but Ive always shot far more 22 than anything else for general practice and fun. It used to be cheap to shoot 22s a lot. Not quite so much now, but still better, and no time spent at the reloading bench.

Remembered that I got a phone call and posted that before I was quite finished.

I agree the rimfires are a help, they fill a useful niche between dry fire and live fire with centerfire work, besides just being a lot of fun, which also helps keep one interested and shooting more. If I had unlimited free centerfire ammo, Id still shoot rimfire quite a lot. If one hasnt tried them, Id suggest borrowing one for a while and see how it goes for them. It may not suit everyone, but if one hasnt tried them, they may be missing a useful tool.

[Odin Bravo One]

Big fan of rimfire training guns. For those who don't know, .22LR is by far my favorite caliber of firearm, and I own lots of them. Even though most rimfire guns (like the M&P .22 pistol) don't truly replicate their center fire big brother(s), they are worth having around as training tools.

When I was stuck in California, I shot the piss out of my AR rimfire of the day. Even when I had the Very Happy Ammo perk/cheat code when I taught tactical shooting to the East Coast SEAL Teams, I still expended a ton of .22 ammo in my training regimen.

I also enjoy plinking around with the .22's, and between rimfire guns for fucking off, the .22 Machinegun, and the numerous training .22's, I was buying .22 ammo by the tens of thousands at a time. If I could only have two guns, I'd have a 5.56 AR, and a M&P15/22 copy of the same.

Since I've dumped most of my centerfire pistols except Glock's, and 1911's, I suppose I should get off my ass and build out a Glock .22....... guess I found use for the 80% frame I was gifted. Anyone done an 80% Glock build wanna help?

[MGW]

What’s the trigger like on a Glock conversion? I would assume the striker spring is heavier?

[schüler]

What’s the trigger like on a Glock conversion? I would assume the striker spring is heavier?

It's been almost a year since I sold my Glock stuff.

I used stock Glock springs in the centerfire assemblies. I owned a few AA and Tac Sol .22 slides.

Trigger was not noticeably heavier but the .22 trigger break was stacked more at end of travel but broke crisper than stock centerfire.

I preferred the Tac Sol for heavier slide and magazines. Some of the internal components are pinned and looked like a PITA to detail strip. IIRC the Tac Sol featured standard Glock sight swap, not sure about AA. Both had their issues from time to time and the Tac Sol behaved best with Mini-mags.

I like the purpose-built .22s much better.

[EricM]

I found the trigger with my AA conversion, on a Gen 4 17 with a TTI connector, to be much lighter than with the factory centerfire upper (which had a Wolff 5lb striker spring and Apex FPB). The AA slide does accept standard Glock sights.

[Bigghoss]

For Glock I have a Tac-Sol conversion unit on a G22 lower for a dedicated .22lr Glock as well as a higher end airsoft Glock replica. Both have been helpful and fun. The airsoft is great because I don't have to go to the range, I can shoot it at home.

Looking to get a Beretta M9A1-22 and an airsoft pistol to compliment my 9mm's.

[Grouse870]

I am a huge rimfire guy. I wish I could get something that approximated my shield in .22. I’ve thought about getting one of the smaller .22 like an SR22 or the like for something close but never have. I shot dot torture with my competition .22 damn near cleared it with a 49 at 5 yards (threw one with my left hand) I usually shoot a 47+ with my duty and carry gun but I shoot it at 3 yards ( left hand is my weakness). I may have to look a little harder into those smaller .22

[Up1911Fan]

I am a huge rimfire guy. I wish I could get something that approximated my shield in .22. I’ve thought about getting one of the smaller .22 like an SR22 or the like for something close but never have. I shot dot torture with my competition .22 damn near cleared it with a 49 at 5 yards (threw one with my left hand) I usually shoot a 47+ with my duty and carry gun but I shoot it at 3 yards ( left hand is my weakness). I may have to look a little harder into those smaller .22

M&P22 Compact?

[M2CattleCo]

Back when I used to shoot competitively at least once a week I had a 9 and 45 1911 built identically. I practiced up for a big Steel Challenge match with the 9mm and broke the extractor right before the match.

No worries, I'll use my identical 45.

I brought enough ammo to cover 200 misses and I ran out of ammo well before the match was over.

I've never touched another sub-caliber trainer and won't.

[GJM]

Back when I used to shoot competitively at least once a week I had a 9 and 45 1911 built identically. I practiced up for a big Steel Challenge match with the 9mm and broke the extractor right before the match.

No worries, I'll use my identical 45.

I brought enough ammo to cover 200 misses and I ran out of ammo well before the match was over.

I've never touched another sub-caliber trainer and won't.

I think I see the problem. You needed a spare extractor..

[Clobbersaurus]

GJM, I'm curious, just to frame this discussion a little better for me, how much dry fire do you usually do in a week vs your live fire schedule?

[GJM]

GJM, I'm curious, just to frame this discussion a little better for me, how much dry fire do you usually do in a week vs your live fire schedule?


Barring certain travel, I dry fire in some amount every day. How much, depends in part on how much life firing I am doing. Lately, I've been lucky enough to be able to shoot two or three hours a day, which diminishes my dry fire time.

[Clobbersaurus]

Barring certain travel, I dry fire in some amount every day. How much, depends in part on how much life firing I am doing. Lately, I've been lucky enough to be able to shoot two or three hours a day, which diminishes my dry fire time.

Thanks for the response. I was curious to know as I think a heavy dry fire regime, as Taadski suggested, would be of similar in benefit and I was wondering how much of it you did. At the level of participation you are able to put into your training, it seems to me that you are exploring .22lr as a full addition to an already robust program. An evaluation of such an addition, in your situation, is interesting to me as you already incorporate standard methods of training at a very high volume. I'm interest to see where it takes you.

For my own situation, I would be looking at a .22lr trainer as a way to mitigate ammo expense. I am not at your level of participation, and ammo costs are a concern in the sense that I don't want to do without other things in my life because of my pistol training. .22lr would give me more range time.

[taadski]

Just a quick drive by post b/c I thought someone mentioned the AA kits being vaporware. Streichers appears to have them in stock currently.

https://www.streichers.com/advantage-arms-22lr-conversion-kit-for-glocks

[Up1911Fan]

There's also several AA kits on ebay.

[Totem Polar]

Tangential, but I have been a small .22 guy since I was a kid, having learned first on a bearcat and a single six. Later guns included beretta 21s, and walther/manuhrin .22 ppks and a TPH (that *may* be the winner for top gun sale regret, out of a reasonably extensive list across 30+years). I still have 2 original 90’s recall replacement Taurus PT-22s that would be amazing if the quality wasn’t so taurine.

All of which is to say that my secret wish list includes a Glock 42 somehow re-engineered into a .22 long rifle rimfire. I’d buy 2 of them (one the first day they came out, and one two years later when they work) and shoot them loose. A 10-shot .22 LR G4x would be the mermaid’s tits.

[Morbidbattlecry]

Could those Advantage arms kits be tuned to run cheaper ammo? I have a ton of the Federal auto match.

[Odin Bravo One]

It has been my experience that rimfire guns like the anmo they like without any rhyme or reason as to why. I've found CCI SS 40 grain lead HPs to run most reliably out of the majority of my .22s, but I do have a couple guns that don't like it. The only frustration (except for having to jam mags with tiny bullets) is that I cannot buy just one brand/load of ammunition to run in all of the guns.

Ammunition is a critical component to reliability in rimfires........ and it takes some time and effort to get it sorted out, and some notes to remind me which gun runs with which load.

[kmanick]

My ruger mark III SS target has the volquartsen internals. 2.25 trigger pull. I can shoot it all day, I'm mounting a Vortex Venom on it today or tomorrow.
Unfortunately it is so different from my M&P performance Center 9L that if I shoot 100 rounds through my Mark III and immediately jump to my 9L
I am all over the place for the first 30 or so rounds. I actually shoot much worse, the Mark III is Stainless steel and quite a bit
heftier than the M&P and has such a light trigger pull that it causes me to "yank" my first few shots with it.
I've found I actually have to dry fire it for a few minutes first otherwise I waste a bunch of rounds down range
re acclimating to the difference in overall feel.
I say it every time I shoot my Mark III...."I wish I could shoot my 9 as well as I shoot this thing". It's
made me ponder lightening the trigger on my M&P (currently right at 5 lb pull) down a pound or 2 since I only plan on using it for competition

[GJM]

It has been my experience that rimfire guns like the anmo they like without any rhyme or reason as to why. I've found CCI SS 40 grain lead HPs to run most reliably out of the majority of my .22s, but I do have a couple guns that don't like it. The only frustration (except for having to jam mags with tiny bullets) is that I cannot buy just one brand/load of ammunition to run in all of the guns.

Ammunition is a critical component to reliability in rimfires........ and it takes some time and effort to get it sorted out, and some notes to remind me which gun runs with which load.

What he said.

I have mixed feelings on the importance of reliability in the .22. I obviously prefer it, but I value economy and cleanliness as much, since this is training and not carry. Bill Rogers runs CCI AR Tactical, and said it is the most reliable ammo in their school pistols, they use in the Basic class, although it is more expensive than some other loads.

A friend was telling me at the Gunsite Alumni shoot yesterday, how she killed six 4-5 foot long rattlers on her front porch in Phoenix this summer with a single .22 snake shot to their head. I asked if that didn't alarm the neighbors in that nice neighborhood, and she said when she hears a shot in the simmer there, it is inevitably someone dispatching a rattler.

[jandbj]

(except for having to jam mags with tiny bullets)

http://www.mcfaden.com/McFadden-Machine-Ultimate-cliploader-s/1827.htm
http://www.mcfaden.com/McFadden-Machine-Lightnin-Grip-Loader-s/1828.htm

These are the single best accessories for high volume shooting of rimfires!
15/22 & 22/45 in my case
It's really neat to bring a brick or two of 22 ammo and only 2 mags to the range. These are really really exceptional!

[Odin Bravo One]

http://www.mcfaden.com/McFadden-Machine-Ultimate-cliploader-s/1827.htm
http://www.mcfaden.com/McFadden-Machine-Lightnin-Grip-Loader-s/1828.htm

These are the single best accessories for high volume shooting of rimfires!
15/22 & 22/45 in my case
It's really neat to bring a brick or two of 22 ammo and only 2 mags to the range. These are really really exceptional!

"High volume" shooting has different meanings for different folks. One brick of .22LR does not fill two of my magazines........which is why I buy .22LR no less than 10k at a time.
20687
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-180
https://youtu.be/dmQQidPKvhE

For dealing with the standard .22's, I just load them. Until they develop a worthwhile tool, Loading the AM-180 mags will just have to be a pain in the ass.

[OlongJohnson]

Rimfire practice also helps with just being able to get more rounds downrange for someone who may have physical issues, such as dealing with a temporarily or permanently delicate back/shoulder/elbow/wrist, or wanting to limit current or future arthritis complications in the hands.

[OlongJohnson]

Bud’s has P229 22LRs for $344 right now, for those who will still buy anything Sig.

[Rex G]

My much-loved S&W Model 17-4 is my most-fired handgun, with nothing else coming close. In the Nineties, the 17-4 was my trainer for my duty/carry Rugers and K-Frames. Starting about 2011, the same 17-4 was the vitally important training weapon I fired to maintain proficiency after my P229R DAK became painful to shoot with .40 Snap & Whip. DAK is much like the S&W DA revolver trigger pull, and, notably, DAK was my personal choice, not mandated by PD policy.

The 17-4 got a rest for a while, after I switched to 9mm Glocks for duty and much personal carry, but now, as I approach retirement, and the 9mm Glocks are hurting my hands, the 17-4 will probably resume its prominent place in my training, as I am likely to largely, if not completely, revert to revolvers and 1911 pistols.

[OlongJohnson]

You bastard.

I've had an itch for another half-lug GP, which has been fairly easy to not scratch due to the dearth of 6-inch half lug stainless models on the market. But the 22LR GPs are half lug. The 4-inch barrel one is a near match for the MC, and would thus make a perfect trainer. Now I have a perfectly good excuse to do something I want to do, and it's also easy.

[David S.]

I find that the reduced recoil of .22 pistols makes it much easier for me to see my sights lift and actually track them in recoil. I find that translates well when I return to 9mm.

I think I have a G19g3 AA kit collecting dust that I may have to put in FSOT.

[David S.]

Could those Advantage arms kits be tuned to run cheaper ammo? I have a ton of the Federal auto match.

IIRC, Auto Match is one of the recommended loads for this kit but I never had any luck getting them to function in mine.

[ken grant]

Air Softs like my real pistols
Laser cartridges for my real pistols
22 LR conversions for my Glocks and 1911's along with 2 1911-22's
22LR conversions for my AR's

All of the above used a lot and at 79 yrs. old with hand tremors , my shooting still stinks .
I have found out that Point Shooting works best for me . Shoot fast before the tremors have time to kick in .
Using the pistols ( mostly G19 ) either full caliber or with a .22 Kit installed I scatter fired shot shells on the berm , right , left , high and low .
Back off between 3-10 yds. , draw and shoot at them . Mostly single shots but sometimes double taps .
I hit a few , make a few move and miss a lot but always close enough to defend myself against them .

YES , I do pick them up when finished and save them for the next time .

[sharps54]

Interestingly enough fully licensed airsoft Glocks are due out next month.

[Doc_Glock]

As a data point. I took out the rimfire G19 Glock trainer and ran a couple hundred rounds through it and set my own personal record on the Supertest raising it from 282 to 288. I then followed with shooting a 9mm G34, and duplicated the Supertest PR at 288 on my first run. Results then deteriorated as I shot the 9mm more.

I think there is something to this rimfire thing as far as trigger managment and learning to not flinch the trigger.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I posted elsewhere that I'm going to shoot IDPA matches with my Buckmark for a bit (one handed). Didn't see the need to get a Glockish or 1911ish clone as I had the Browning and shot steel with it every once in awhile. It was fun.

[GJM]

As I probably have mentioned before, Bill Rogers says that a .22 allows you to practice steering the sights while pressing the trigger, without recoil to mask imperfections in trigger.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

2185621855
I posted elsewhere that I'm going to shoot IDPA matches with my Buckmark for a bit (one handed). Didn't see the need to get a Glockish or 1911ish clone as I had the Browning and shot steel with it every once in awhile. It was fun.

Good to hear Glenn, hope you’ll update us w/ your results etc.

I started 2017 using my dad’s ‘89 vintage Buck in steel matches but after discovering that parts for it are unattainable, bought a current gen. Buck & put dad’s back in the safe. Sorry ‘bout the pic angle, UNC on how to correct that.

Bill Rogers’s view that George shared was the driving force behind my decision to use the Buck & it’s certainly helped w/ my own trigger issues etc.

[jandbj]

Spent a few range sessions with the 43c lately. It has definitely improved my trigger management & sight alignment on just about everything, including a .308 bolt gun! I'm really doing some of my most accurate and flinch free shooting with a bunch of different guns. Convinced its thanks in large part to a J frame with ball in trough sight... maybe?

[Poconnor]

Don’t forget air pistols. Target ones do not replicate carry guns but they are great for educating your trigger finger. I think the first new revolver I bought was a S&W 17 and a case of .22 lr ammo (5000) rds. My plan was to learn how to shoot a revolver well. A centerfire revolver works well too for dryfire practice. I spent many hours as a teen in a smallbore rifle league. None of that time was wasted. I bought a 43C after I made the mistake of letting my wife tryout my 642 pocket gun. I forgot how nasty airweight smiths are to new shooters

[BillSWPA]

I am considering purchasing an Advantage Arms .22 lr conversion for either a Glock 19 or a Glock 26. Can anyone comment on whether either has a reliability advantage over the other?


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[Totem Polar]

Funny that this thread should pop up again; I just struck a deal with a P-F stud for a 43c to understudy my growing collection of J-snubs. Makes sense to me; we shall see how it goes. I’m sitting on enough .22lr to make it a fun effort, regardless.

[David S.]

I am considering purchasing an Advantage Arms .22 lr conversion for either a Glock 19 or a Glock 26. Can anyone comment on whether either has a reliability advantage over the other?

I haven't read too many complaints about them.

OTOH, the AA kit I had for my G19G3 was terribly unreliable using their recommended bulk ammo. I sent it back and they tuned it up, test fired it, and returned it to me. It was still unreliable with bulk ammo. This was during the ammo shortage 10 years ago, so I wasn't about to pay high 9mm prices for .22 Mini-Mags. I sold the kit several years later with full disclosure.

I get the impression that my experience is unusual.

[awp_101]

I am considering purchasing an Advantage Arms .22 lr conversion for either a Glock 19 or a Glock 26. Can anyone comment on whether either has a reliability advantage over the other?


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I built a dedicated G19 .22 last year and had no problem with my AA kit as long as I avoided the ammo they advised against. IIRC it was one of the Federal bulk pack offerings. I had some so of course I tried it and nope, it didn't work. It ate Remington and CCI no problem though.

Sold the entire thing after a couple of months when I finally admitted Glocks and I don't get along very well.

So far my AA 1911 kit has eaten everything I've fed it as long as the round was in spec.

[BillSWPA]

Given some of the hit or miss reports of reliability, I wonder if:

1) A different conversion kit might be better, or,

2) Simply buying a S&W M&P .22 compact might be the better option, even though I carry Glocks.

I already have a Buck Mark, which my daughter uses when she comes shooting with me, but which isn’t the best choice for practicing drawing from a holster:



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[Duelist]

Given some of the hit or miss reports of reliability, I wonder if:

1) A different conversion kit might be better, or,

2) Simply buying a S&W M&P .22 compact might be the better option, even though I carry Glocks.

I already have a Buck Mark, which my daughter uses when she comes shooting with me, but which isn’t the best choice for practicing drawing from a holster:



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Or a PPQ .22? I wonder about them. I messed around with one at a shop, and really liked it. I have a Ruger MKII, so I am not actually hurting for a .22 semiauto, but I wonder about the lightweight options, and something more similar to the gun I actually carry.

[CraigS]

I just came across this thread and want to add that my CO2 BB 92A1 performs a similar function for me as the .22s being discussed. And I can shoot in the basement.

[awp_101]

I just came across this thread and want to add that my CO2 BB 92A1 performs a similar function for me as the .22s being discussed. And I can shoot in the basement.

Which one do you have? I need something else to add to my Christmas wish list!

[CraigS]

I have this one
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Beretta_92A1_CO2_Full_Auto_BB_Pistol/3659
I bought one of the other models first and it was terrible. It was an 8 shot gun w/ a tiny little plastic cylinder that you loaded pellets into. This one works just like a real 92. The entire slide moves when it fires, it locks back on an empty mag, the safety/decocker, mag release button, all work normally. The CO2 and 18 BBs fit into the magazine so it is quite close in weight to a loaded real magazine. After getting lube into everything, the trigger is actually really good. The BBs are also a lot quicker to load than pellets. I shoot at 20 feet at 3 inch dots stuck on a cardboard box from HD. Both the heavy duty version, a small one inside a medium. When it gets too chewed up I just rotate to another side. My biggest challenge is the draw and that first shot in DA so that is what I practice. BTW, if you have a smart phone, down load an app called "Splits" for a really useful timer. It will even work for dry firing w/ a real 92.

[awp_101]

Thanks, I'll check the 92 and timer app out!

[strow]

As I probably have mentioned before, Bill Rogers says that a .22 allows you to practice steering the sights while pressing the trigger, without recoil to mask imperfections in trigger.

GJM, where you using a S&W 317 for this very type of training? How would you compare the S&W K or J frame 22lr to a 22lr conversion of the same design as your competition/carry gun? Any idea how the Rogers school S&W 22lr are set up?

I have a TSG 19/22 conversion I have rebuild 2 or 3 times and probably put 15-20k rounds through it. It works best with CCI MM or CCI Tac. It has never been +90% reliable but it has allowed a LOT of extra trigger time in the past. I find it especially useful for non-freestyle types of shooting like shooting from retention, shooting on the move, shooting at almost contact distance, SHO/WHO, grounded/guard, from vehicle, etc.

[GJM]

GJM, where you using a S&W 317 for this very type of training? How would you compare the S&W K or J frame 22lr to a 22lr conversion of the same design as your competition/carry gun? Any idea how the Rogers school S&W 22lr are set up?

I have a TSG 19/22 conversion I have rebuild 2 or 3 times and probably put 15-20k rounds through it. It works best with CCI MM or CCI Tac. It has never been +90% reliable but it has allowed a LOT of extra trigger time in the past. I find it especially useful for non-freestyle types of shooting like shooting from retention, shooting on the move, shooting at almost contact distance, SHO/WHO, grounded/guard, from vehicle, etc.

I was using a 317 as a light gun and relatively heavy trigger came me maximum practice steering the sights while working the trigger.

I believe the Rogers School went to Ruger LCR revolvers in .22.

[randyflycaster]

I bought a Ruger 22 thinking that it would help me improve my shooting, without breaking my bank. What I found is that I shoot the 22 very well, but when I shoot my 9mms I still pull my shots to the right. (I shoot left-handed.) I guess what I learned from the 22 is that I'm having recoil-control issues.

Randy

[GJM]

I bought a Ruger 22 thinking that it would help me improve my shooting, without breaking my bank. What I found is that I shoot the 22 very well, but when I shoot my 9mms I still pull my shots to the right. (I shoot left-handed.) I guess what I learned from the 22 is that I'm having recoil-control issues.

Randy

Maybe isolating the trigger issues. Try the 50/50 drill, where you load the chamber only of your 9, fire one live shot then immediately fire one dry fire shot. Repeat as necessary.

[BillSWPA]

I bought a Ruger 22 thinking that it would help me improve my shooting, without breaking my bank. What I found is that I shoot the 22 very well, but when I shoot my 9mms I still pull my shots to the right. (I shoot left-handed.) I guess what I learned from the 22 is that I'm having recoil-control issues.

Randy

Be sure that, for both the .22 and your 9mm, you grip the gun so that the central axis of the barrel is lined up with the central axis of your forearm when viewed from the top. With this grip established, be sure you engage the trigger halfway between the first joint and the tip of your finger. This should help you pull the trigger straight back as well as ensuring that recoil is straight up.

I have found that .22 translates very well to skill with centerfire calibers. I have not had the same good results trying to transfer airgun skills to powder-propelled pistols.



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[OlongJohnson]

Given some of the hit or miss reports of reliability, I wonder if:

I already have a Buck Mark, but which isn’t the best choice for practicing drawing from a holster:


I like Buck Marks. They make them with nice, short, 4-in bull barrels. The SAO manual of arms is pretty close to a 1911 and you can get as target-like a trigger as you want, but I wouldn't think it a good trainer for most modern defensive handguns. If you want to eat a bullseye out of a target, they're good for that. They do need a going-through (check/adjust firing pin length and deburr all moving parts to avoid excess wear or damage) before putting them into service. But then, so do most guns.

I've been enjoying a P250 in .22LR lately. Light, smooth DAO trigger, and uses the same grip frames as the P320. Points pretty much like a Sig for me.

I've so far used my Buck Marks to rationalize not picking up a 617 or 317, but don't know whether that will work forever. They aren't exactly the same.

[RJ]

2) Simply buying a S&W M&P .22 compact might be the better option, even though I carry Glocks.



Bill - Did you ever pursue this?

I’m late to this party but am also pondering a rimfire trainer for fun. I also have Glocks and am looking at the M&P .22 as an option.

[BillSWPA]

Bill - Did you ever pursue this?

I’m late to this party but am also pondering a rimfire trainer for fun. I also have Glocks and am looking at the M&P .22 as an option.

Not yet, but I am likely to do so soon.

Part of my motivation: my 11 year old daughter enjoys going shooting with me, and enjoys shooting .22 pistols and rifles. However, she does NOT enjoy being nearby if I am shooting anything larger than .22, even .38 special or 9mm, and even when she is wearing good quality electronic earmuffs. We shoot outdoors, so this was a bit of a surprise to me, but I don't want something like this to keep her from shooting and improving.

She has been shown drawing from a holster with my SIRT pistol, but is not yet ready to do so with live ammo. When she is, this pistol might fit her hand well.

The less expensive practice is also a plus.

[Keith E.]

A bit off topic here and I apologize if I've strayed too far. Years ago I worked away from home and only had access to an indoor range where would take my Colt Govt Model .45ACP to practice in the evenings. Nice range, 25yds available, safe and well-run along with a well-stocked retail area. The problem was an approximately 50% recovery rate on my brass which was totally unacceptable to me. I started carrying my Ruger MKII and running 50rds per evening. A workmate got interested and I introduced him to shooting which was a bonus as well. Long story short, when I would come back home, my shooting with the Govt. Model showed marked improvement due to concentrating on the fundamentals during the week. My formerly mentioned workmate and myself would each run 50rds at a bullseye target for bragging rights, he got a small handicap of course. I don't believe that your rimfire trainer has to be a duplicate of your centerfire piece in order to have some value. Of course, having the same platform would be a plus.

Keith

[jandbj]

I've been enjoying a P250 in .22LR lately. Light, smooth DAO trigger, and uses the same grip frames as the P320. Points pretty much like a Sig for me.


Was looking at these on CDNN website recently. Looking forward to additional insights on this one. How’s reliability with bulkpack?

[OlongJohnson]

I've been working through a 525 bulk pack of Federal HV stuff from probably the middle of 2014. Many rounds (~3.5 percent) are failing to fire in this pistol and in a Buck Mark, even with a good rim strike. Every such round so far has fired when turned and reloaded. I started the P250 on CCI SV, and had no issue with those except for the magazine issue described below, a total of 140 rounds.

Overall, apart from this Federal, I've had one Aguila and one CCI FTF with a good strike, that I can remember with all guns ever. Not a lifetime shooter. I mostly shoot CCI, but have had the occasional stovepipe even with CCI and well-vetted reliable pistols.

Other than those FTFs, there have been only a few issues with the P250. The first time out, I discovered a damaged magazine (out of the box) when a few rounds failed to be picked up by the slide. Sig sent me a replacement, and I was able to recover the damaged magazine as well.

Round #293 had lube on the front of the bullet stick to the front of the magazine and hold the round down, so it failed to be picked up by the slide. I haven't cleaned/polished/waxed the mags or anything.

Current count is at 361 rounds, by my notes, with no further issues. Apart from the excess bullet lube, rounds that didn't go bang when struck, and the magazine issue that was easily resolved and could have easily been detected in advance with better inspection, there have been no functional issues. All other rounds have fed and extracted properly.

[awp_101]

This thread is rekindling my interest in one of the Beretta 92 rimfire conversion kits...:eek:

[orionz06]

This thread is rekindling my interest in one of the Beretta 92 rimfire conversion kits...:eek:

Having just got into the 92's I'm on the same boat.

[Screwball]

I had a Ciener kit for my 92... liked it, but rather the function like the traditional slide. Unsure if you can do a G conversion, but that would be awesome.

[AaronB]

For you all you guys running a Beretta 92 series, has anyone tried out the 92 series .22LR versions they now producing?

http://www.beretta.com/en-us/92fsr-22-sniper-grey/

[BillSWPA]

Before spending the $ to buy a S&W M&P .22 pistol, I checked some holster maker websites to see if they offer holsters for it, and emailed one holster maker, so far without success. If I am not drawing from a holster, what I already own is adequate. Some holster makers do make holsters for Glock type Polymer 80 frames, and Midway has some on sale. So, it looks like a dedicated .22 based on a conversion kit may be the better option.

[Up1911Fan]

Before spending the $ to buy a S&W M&P .22 pistol, I checked some holster maker websites to see if they offer holsters for it, and emailed one holster maker, so far without success. If I am not drawing from a holster, what I already own is adequate. Some holster makers do make holsters for Glock type Polymer 80 frames, and Midway has some on sale. So, it looks like a dedicated .22 based on a conversion kit may be the better option.

I've been trying to get Tony Mayer on board with the 22 compact, not yet.

[Will_H]

Before spending the $ to buy a S&W M&P .22 pistol, I checked some holster maker websites to see if they offer holsters for it, and emailed one holster maker, so far without success. If I am not drawing from a holster, what I already own is adequate. Some holster makers do make holsters for Glock type Polymer 80 frames, and Midway has some on sale. So, it looks like a dedicated .22 based on a conversion kit may be the better option.

Bill, my "full size" M&P 22 pistol fits fine in my regular M&P 9 FS holsters.

[Jeff22]

22 conversion units

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a topic near and dear to my heart. I started shooting .22 conversion units about 35 years ago, when I was a poor student. About the same time Jerry Usher had an article in (I think) the American Handgunner Annual advocating the use of what he called "understudy" guns for economical practice.

During my military service I used an M-16 (three different models, actually) and carried (in order) an S&W 15 revolver, an M1911A1 and then an M9. I have personal examples of all of those guns.

Over the years I acquired a S&W 18 (.22 cal combat masterpiece), a Colt Ace (.22 on the O frame) and a Ciener and then later a Beretta “practice kit” for the M9. And an Atchisson and then a Colt conversion unit for the AR-15. In recent years I bought a S&W M&P 15-22 rifle (which works really well)

(I also have a S&W 650 in .22 to go with my S&W 60 HB 3 inch, an argentine .22 conversion unit for my Browning P35, a Sig conversion unit I bought in 2008 for my 9mm 226 & 226-DAK in .40 cal, and a Walther PPK/S in .22 that I use as a practice gun for my Walther PPK & Sig 230. I also have a S&W M&P pistol in .22. One of the current Colt marked M1911 pattern pistols is also on my list of potential purchases, depending on what happens with the availability of .22 LR ammunition)

In my military service I was an LE Specialist in the SPs in the ANG, an MP in the ARNG and then finished up back in the ANG as a CATM instructor. Back in the 80s we had access to the 50 foot indoor range at the local ARNG armory, which had a mild steel backstop and was limited to .22s. Shot thousands of rounds in there, and at the ROTC range on campus (I was enlisted, but I had a friend who was in the ROTC and he was able to get me in a few times) which was also limited to .22 because of a soft steel backstop and questionable ventilation . . .

I've done LOTS of shooting with all of them. I find it works best to do accuracy drills with the .22s. They don't have much recoil, but the balance and trigger pull and sight picture are all the same.

For practice with the bigger guns I usually use an IPSC or IDPA target or an NRA B-34 (1/2 scale) target. For the .22s I usually use the ½ scale B-34 targets or the 1/3rd scale B-29 or TQ-16 or TQ-20 or TQ-22 targets . I basically do my same set of drills at the same distances, but on a much smaller target. It helps a LOT to keep in tune and not spend as much money doing it.

The Ciener unit for the Beretta M9 is serviceable. The Beretta factory unit works better, and does have a hammer de-cocker/safety, just like the original.

The Ciener unit for the Glock is marginally reliable. Mine worked better after I had the chamber and the sides of the extractor where it pivots in the frame polished. If I clean it every 150 rounds or so, use good quality ammo and lube it well, it works reasonably well.

I have found the Advantage Arms conversion unit for the Glock to be a joy to shoot, provided that you use high velocity ammunition with a plated bullet. The same thing is true for the Sig conversion. As long as you run ammo with a plated bullet at 1230 fps or so, they work pretty well. With slower ammo you’ll have many failures to go fully into battery, which is aggravating. (CCI mini-mags work the best)

I have the conversions for the G19 and G22 on dedicated Glock frames that I bought from Glockmeister. I tried to talk Sig into selling me a frame to put my conversion unit on, but was unsuccessful.

I bought my Atchisson conversion for the AR-15 in 1982 from Bro-Caliber International in Cincinnati. It was very rough and didn't work very well. Based on a 1985 article in SOLDIER OF FORTUNE Magazine I sent my conversion unit off to John Norrell Arms (now in Little Rock, Arkansas) and paid him almost $300 to tune it up so it would work. IT WAS MONEY WELL SPENT! As long as I keep the unit reasonably clean and well lubed and use good ammo, it'll shoot all day every day. (www,johnnorrellarms.com) (I don't know if he still adjusts conversion units like that or not . . . )

I also have a Ciener converter for an AK-47 . I’ve had it for years and haven’t shot it that much. And not in a long time. That sounds like a good project for this winter.

Of course, the S&W .22 revolvers are a joy to shoot. Particularly the model 18.

The Argentine conversion unit for the Browning HP is pretty good as well. Like all the rest, kept clean, lubed well and fed good quality ammo, it shoots fairly reliably. (I bought mine from Sportsman's Guide about 15 years ago. There was another importer as well, but I haven't seen them advertised for quite a while now)

Peter Stahl in Germany also made conversion units for the Sig P6 (M225) and various of the Smith & Wesson auto pistols. I'm not sure they were ever imported into the US in any numbers. I tried to order a .22 conversion for my S&W 39 about 30 years ago but was unsuccessful.

MANY years ago you’d see ads in SHOTGUN NEWS for .22 converters for the P38 pistol. I've never seen one and have no idea how well they work.

None of my conversion units for the AR platform are the least ammo sensitive.

The Colt Ace & Beretta factory conversion unit will function with anything. Sig recommends CCI mini-mags in their conversions, and I believe that Advantage Arms recommends Remington Golden Bullets.

Of course, many of the advantages to be found using a .22 for practice are negated when .22 ammo is hard to find and/or really expensive.

[cistercian]

I have a 1911 wadgun my dad used in the 70's for NRA bullseye. I also have his .22 cal SW model 41 which is a nice
pistol to train with if you are a 1911 driver. I prize both highly but I really prefer the 41. It is more accurate.
We ransom rest tested it at 50 yards and it kept all holes in an area much less than a dime with good ammo.
When I need to really step it up I use it to see how well I am doing. With the model 41 I have, if the group is bad
I am certain it is totally my fault. It is the most accurate pistol I own. I am fortunate to have it, and it has a trigger
that breaks at exactly 3 lbs. It was also lightened at the muzzle by the gunsmith my dad bought it from.
Trigger travel is 50 thousandths of an inch and more than 1 RO asked if I was shooting a FA pistol when I got
enthusiastic with it!

I now shoot 9mm exclusively...I decided I would master the pistols and work though the challenges the stock configuration presented.
My hardest one for tiny groups is my MK25, yet the grip on it fits me so well it is ideal for rapidly engaging different targets. My M9A3
makes good groups and is ok dynamically. And my Legion SAO 226 makes the smallest groups and is also very good dynamically.

I note the group size directly corresponds to trigger pull weight. Dynamic handling depends directly on how well the grip fits.

The SAO legion is the best overall...but none in my stable are bad.

None of the 9mm are even close to the S&W Model 41. It is like a laser that emits 40grn lead photons!!! Because it has a superlative trigger and sights
it now has limited use for serious practice for me. I may whip it out if I feel the need to make crazy small groups and need the reassurance I am
not totally blind!!! It is a ridiculous pistol and if you can buy one...I cannot recommend it highly enough!!!
My copy was made in the mid 60's. YMMV.

[JSGlock34]

This thread is rekindling my interest in one of the Beretta 92 rimfire conversion kits...:eek:


Having just got into the 92's I'm on the same boat.

Me too. The fact that Beretta is selling the conversion kits at 30% off (+ free shipping) for Black Friday isn't helping.

Beretta New Conversion Practice Kit .22LR for 92 Series (Practice Kit) - 15Rds mag (https://www.berettausa.com/en-us/beretta-conversion-kit-92-series-15-round-mag-/)

[awp_101]

That sound you hear is my Black Friday ammo deal money screaming "Spend me!"

[Wyoming Shooter]

I bought this Smith 617 the summer of 2018 and now have approximately 500 rounds through it. The pistol has been trouble free. I scrub the cylinder and run a bore snake down the barrel every 100 rounds or so. CCI Standard Velocity shoots just fine. It's been a useful training tool, and much fun. From the Big Empty, ELN.

32517

32518

32520

[awp_101]

Me too. The fact that Beretta is selling the conversion kits at 30% off (+ free shipping) for Black Friday isn't helping.

Beretta New Conversion Practice Kit .22LR for 92 Series (Practice Kit) - 15Rds mag (https://www.berettausa.com/en-us/beretta-conversion-kit-92-series-15-round-mag-/)

Aaaaand now one will be shipping to me the next business day they're open...:eek:

[GJM]

I bought this Smith 617 the summer of 2018 and now have approximately 500 rounds through it. The pistol has been trouble free. I scrub the cylinder and run a bore snake down the barrel every 100 rounds or so. CCI Standard Velocity shoots just fine. It's been a useful training tool, and much fun. From the Big Empty, ELN.

32517

32518

32520

I have two 617 revolvers. I don’t find them helpful training, as they are frankly too easy to shoot well. My 317 is a good trainer.

[retdusm]

My Beretta conversion kit arrived today no chance to shoot it yet.

[awp_101]

Beretta has the conversions on sale again for $239.

[RJ]

What are you guys thoughts on this Ruger Mark 4?

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/35395

I shoot a Glock 19.5 for USPSA and a Glock 26.5 for carry.

[flyrodr]

What are you guys thoughts on this Ruger Mark 4?

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/35395

I shoot a Glock 19.5 for USPSA and a Glock 26.5 for carry.

I have the Ruger Mk. 3, and the same Glocks (but don't shoot USPSA). I like the Ruger, it's accurate and cheap to shoot, but it doesn't feel anything like the Glock. Thinner, different grip angle (mine has the "1911 grip angle") and different sights, all of which contribute to a different feel and arm positioning when drawing and aligning sights. Oh, and depending on which model you get (steel plain or bull barrel, aluminum barrel with steel sleeve, and standard or 1911 grip angle), there are lots more variations in balance and feel.

What the Ruger does do (at least for me) is help identify any "hidden" added tension, finger twitch, jerk, flinch - - - whatever recoil issue one might have with the larger caliber.

So, yes, from that standpoint, it's a help. And did I mention that it's just plain fun to shoot!

[psalms144.1]

As flyrodr stated, the MKIII/IV Rugers share very little in common with a Glock of any type. Grip angle, shape and "feel" are different, trigger is VASTLY different, sights are typically different. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing, I'm still a firm believer that everyone should learn shooting fundamentals on a .22 (Ruger or Buckmark, either is a good choice) before they start shooting centerfires. I had to learn this lesson the hard way, "self taught" on a 1911, then a S&W 29 gave me a bunch of habits that I had to unlearn before I could start to get better - and the guys that taught me through that period did so with me shooting rimfire...

[baddean]

What are you guys thoughts on this Ruger Mark 4?

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/35395

I shoot a Glock 19.5 for USPSA and a Glock 26.5 for carry.

Have you considered a .22 conversion kit for one of your Glocks?
For about the same cost you can train using your current gun with .22s.
I have a .22 conversion kit for my G17 and it works very well.
Here is a good kit. https://www.glockstore.com/22-LR-Conversion-Kit-for-Glocks
Not that it wouldn't be fun to have another gun though.
Just a thought.

[RJ]

Have you considered a .22 conversion kit for one of your Glocks?
For about the same cost you can train using your current gun with .22s.
I have a .22 conversion kit for my G17 and it works very well.
Here is a good kit. https://www.glockstore.com/22-LR-Conversion-Kit-for-Glocks
Not that it wouldn't be fun to have another gun though.
Just a thought.

Definitely.

Awkwardly, there doesn’t seem to be any availability for a kit for Gen 5 Glocks. There is mention of one but so far in light research I’ve not been able to source a supplier that has one for sale.


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[Chuck Whitlock]

What are you guys thoughts on this Ruger Mark 4?

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/35395

I shoot a Glock 19.5 for USPSA and a Glock 26.5 for carry.

Rich,

DO IT!!!

Not everything has to be tactically relevant, and some of it ought to be for fun, like your Blackhawk.

A buttload of shooting can be done with a .22, while being easy on your wallet AND body, and the Ruger is one of the most prolific ones out there. The MKIV is preferable to the previous generations just for ease of takedown. And while it won't be exactly analogous to your Glocks, you will learn things that do cross over, and make you a better all around shooter.

[LittleLebowski]

Is there such a thing as a DA only .22LR revolver?

[Chuck Whitlock]

Is there such a thing as a DA only .22LR revolver?

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-43-c

https://ruger.com/products/lcr/specSheets/5410.html

[baddean]

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-43-c

https://ruger.com/products/lcr/specSheets/5410.html

Dang you Chuck, that's probably gonna cost me. The Smith is nice.

[baddean]

Definitely.

Awkwardly, there doesn’t seem to be any availability for a kit for Gen 5 Glocks. There is mention of one but so far in light research I’ve not been able to source a supplier that has one for sale.
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That's always been a problem with the kits going back years ago when I first bought mine.
Apparently they're not an item anyone wants to stock a lot of

[Doc_Glock]

Is there such a thing as a DA only .22LR revolver?

I love my LCR .22

[Jeff22]

So in 2020 I bought a Glock 44 in .22, a Beretta M9 in .22 (made by Beretta) and a Colt M1911 in .22 (which is marked Colt but actually made by Walther)

I’m really happy with all three of those guns, though I only have about 500 rounds each through the M9 and the M1911.

(I’ve been able to find .22 LR ammo for a reasonable price at Cabela’s and Gander Outdoors about once a month. Haven’t been able to find anything else since the end of June)

[deputyG23]

So in 2020 I bought a Glock 44 in .22, a Beretta M9 in .22 (made by Beretta) and a Colt M1911 in .22 (which is marked Colt but actually made by Walther)

I’m really happy with all three of those guns, though I only have about 500 rounds each through the M9 and the M1911.

(I’ve been able to find .22 LR ammo for a reasonable price at Cabela’s and Gander Outdoors about once a month. Haven’t been able to find anything else since the end of June)

I got a G44 for my birthday in September. Works well as a RF understudy to my G5 G19.
I shoot about a hundred rounds of .22 each Saturday and fifty rounds of whatever CF handgun I choose to bring.

[Jeff22]

Years ago that’s EXACTLY what I did. Warm up with the .22 practice gun and then finish off with 50 or 100 rnds with the big gun.

Under present circumstances, I think I’m going back to that procedure.

[Jim Watson]

IDPA MD near here has opened Specialty Division for .22s in the next match. He says he will not use knockdown Poppers or plates, that any moving targets will be activated by pull rope. I don't know if he has a bear trap, which would be good for the purpose.

[Zincwarrior]

IDPA MD near here has opened Specialty Division for .22s in the next match. He says he will not use knockdown Poppers or plates, that any moving targets will be activated by pull rope. I don't know if he has a bear trap, which would be good for the purpose.

If it helps, at one club we've used .22 for both pistol and short range carbine matches. Any steel, once they hit they move one, and have pull ropes for movers when the .22s come up. It does work, the SO/MD just needs to be aware if there people with .22s.

Historically those are kids and its really annoying when they kick everybody's keister. :D

[vaglocker]

I love my LCR .22

I have the LCRx 3 inch and like most 22 revolvers that trigger is shall we say stout. However, it sure is good for training trigger control.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I shot the TX matches with a Browning Buckmark for grins. It had a fiber optic sight and was easy and accurate. I'm short a 22 semi now and torn between a trainer and another Buckmark. I have all the gear for the Buckmark - try to find a left handed holster and mag pouches. I did. Use it for steel.

I might just get another Buckmark. One lesson, don't take it completely apart - Oy!

It's a good idea for the shooting sports to allow 22s, IMHO.

[peterb]

It's a good idea for the shooting sports to allow 22s, IMHO.

Steel Challenge with a .22 is a great way to get someone started in the shooting sports.

[OlongJohnson]

I might just get another Buckmark. One lesson, don't take it completely apart - Oy!

I now do that with all of them before they ever see range time. Have seen too many uglies inside not to. But I do like them when they are cleaned up. I can't say I've had any trouble getting one back together.

The newest ones apparently no longer have the hole in the left side of the frame that allows you to drive the trigger bar pin out of the trigger (necessary to remove the trigger). Can only guess whether that was to save 4.7 seconds of machine time or to prevent people from messing with the trigger. Motivated people drill their own hole. The improvement that results from shimming the lateral play out of the trigger is notable. I can't report a difference in scores, but it certainly feels a lot more consistent when it no longer flops around, rather just swings front to rear. And there is a slight reduction of friction, which is never a bad thing. It is probably possible to shim the trigger without driving out the trigger bar pin, but you wouldn't get to deburr and smooth the trigger pocket in the frame to get the full result.

Some people would say I have too many Buck Marks, but in a year of selling guns, I haven't considered thinning that particular herd for more than a minute or two.

[AzShooter]

https://i.imgur.com/noBhCxVl.jpg

.22s are great for training. I even use an almost stock Mark IV 22/45 Lite to practice instead of my Volquartsen Black Mamba. I've had a S&W 617 to enhance my shooting with centerfire revolvers. The .22 is easier to handle and costs a lot less to feed. Whatever you are trying to learn it takes about 5000 rounds to ingrain it into your memory. Mixing 22s with your more powerful gun really helps in this regard.

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper said "You can learn about 80% of what you need to know with a .22."

My normal practice session is 60-70% rimfire.