Engaging someone that's in an extremely elevated position [Archive]

andre3k

10-02-2017, 10:24 AM

My first inclination would try to find the shooter and get to his location. After that your tactics are the same as any active shooter. Sending accurate fire more than a few stories up would be pretty risky even if you could identify a target. I've never practiced shooting at an upward angle so I have no idea how it affects bullet trajectory.

I can only imagine attempting to locate a shooter that you highly suspect has a full auto weapon and trying to make entry into a hotel room to deal with that situation. Balls of steel somehow comes to mind.

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1slow

10-02-2017, 10:32 AM

My understanding is that trajectory is influenced by the horizontal component of distance not the total distance. There are charts for this.

voodoo_man

10-02-2017, 10:34 AM

After you get to cover and identify the location of the shooter you should get to a weapon system which is applicable.

In the Vegas scenario you would need a weapon system which can take 300y+ shots. So that means a bolt gun, an AR in 5.56 or 7.62 and a good piece of glass to give you PID, and ammo which will work at that distance.

At a minimum a 16" AR15 with a 2.5-10x and 77gr OTM would be required for effective application at that distance.

If you do not have that readily available in your vehicle, then going to the source with a pistol should only be considered if the police are not coming or are being overwhelmed and you know where the threat is exactly.

With all that being said, if you find yourself in that particular situation, especially in a large metro type area. Find cover, sit tight, render aid as needed (this is why having a med kit with multiple med items is a good idea to have in your vehicle at all times). You rushing in and/or trying to stop the threat while other LEOs are coming into this type of scenario is almost certainly going to get you shot.

If this happens to be in a rural part of America, where you know all three officers working, then maybe you can get some work in, but you'd probably also have a readily available rifle in your truck as well.

andre3k

10-02-2017, 10:39 AM

Based on the original post I think he's referring to a law enforcement response as opposed to an armed citizen.

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voodoo_man

10-02-2017, 10:47 AM

Based on the original post I think he's referring to a law enforcement response as opposed to an armed citizen.

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Missed that.

For LE:

Locate threat - do not engage until you have PID (positive ID) and can 100% make hits without hitting other people in other rooms.

Most swat teams have bolt guns, this would be a good application for them. In terms of this Vegas scenario, you'd need to make 100% accurate hits.

In terms of Texas Tower, you do not have to be as accurate as there aren't any people immediately around that area, but you still should not miss (obviously).

2.5-10x is a good magnification. 1-8x will also do in both of these situations. Knowing your zero and hold over is key and absolutely required. Iron sights would be useless or near useless.

One of the guys in the squad working needs be a "designated marksman" and have a rifle 5.56 or 7.62 which is equipped with a good piece of glass, bipod, etc. This is the guy who gets into position after hearing calls and makes precision shots to stop the threat.

If there is no rifle present with good glass and the precision shooting training required to make those hits, then the only possible stop to that threat is to bring the fight to the shooter as fast as possible.

LSP552

10-02-2017, 11:19 AM

Broad thoughts only for an open forum.

Get inside. Most things you can get behind for cover are NOT cover from highly elevated rifle fire. A rifle with decent glass for threat ID and laying hate. Without a rifle, close on the threat using buildings as cover.

TGS

10-02-2017, 11:42 AM

If it's a building occupied by innocents with no cover (such as a hotel vs a clock tower), your only option to engage the subject is a DMR (extremely rare in LE, most patrol rifles are wearing iron sights alone or an RDS) or a sniper.

Which leaves the aforementioned option......get inside.

Probably a good reinforcement of why patrol guys, and not just swat, should have easy access to breaching tools for active shooter situations.

ST911

10-02-2017, 12:10 PM

Pythagoras. Operator AF.

Start with HS geometry, A^2 + B^2 = C^2, then calculate the angles. If the shooter is 32 stories (~320 feet) up, the responder is 300 yds (900ft) away, the line of sight is ~318 yds on a ~19 deg up angle. The window is probably about 6'x6', humanoid target, in a congested background of no-shoots. Visibility and relative target size decline with increasing angle. What tools are best for the task, what are the responder's capabilities, where is the counterattack?

gtmtnbiker98

10-02-2017, 01:23 PM

Honestly and truthfully, this scenario scares the shit out of me from an LE perspective. Lon, you are not alone in your grasp for knowledge on this particular event. I'm at a loss as to how one would or for that matter, could respond other than direct action at the door as LVMPD did. As for LE capability, I think we'd be hard pressed to see any agency be able to effectively respond to this scenario from the ground. LE uses the term "designated marksman" as a title befitting of anybody capable of passing a lax 100 yard course of fire here in Ohio. Hardly what I'd consider skilled. True SRT/SWAT, in my opinion, is reserved for the likes of LAPD, Miami/Dade, NYPD, and FBI HRT. All other agencies are best attempts with the resources they have at the moment.

We are in trying times.

andre3k

10-02-2017, 01:26 PM

If there is no rifle present with good glass and the precision shooting training required to make those hits, then the only possible stop to that threat is to bring the fight to the shooter as fast as possible.

In my area this would be the most likely scenario. The guys that are going to be first on scene will be patrol from a multitude of agencies. With the exception of SWAT guys variable glass on a bolt gun or even an AR isn't very common. You're far more likely to see a 16 inch Bushmaster with a RDS and that's about it.

I would be very hesitant to start taking long range shots at a target into a crowded hotel with that setup. If the patrol guys I work with are indicative of anything. The majority won't have much experience taking shots with their carbine over 100 yards and will have never fired that weapon at an extreme upward angle. After a while SWAT guys will start showing up but those first few minutes or more will be on your own.

I would focus on finding out the shooters location. This is where the dispatcher comes into play. There will always be a call coming from where the shooters location that will inevitably be lost in the tons of other calls dropping at the same time. I guarantee you that the rooms adjacent to the shooter either called 911 or notified hotel security.

Once you get an idea of the location then you can get close and actually use what you're trained to do.

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GJM

10-02-2017, 01:51 PM

Not LE, but if forced to deal with this, lobbing .300 WM rounds into an unknown building seems especially unappealing. How about:

1) through the door, with a secondary benefit of distracting the shooter from engaging outside.

2) lowering two guys in harnesses either side of the shootr's window(s).

3) taking a Las Vegas PD Bell 407 or 530F, rear doors off, and hovering shooters either side of the windows.

Ideally multiple things at the same time.

Lon

10-02-2017, 02:04 PM

2) lowering two guys in harnesses either side of the shootr's window(s).

3) taking a Las Vegas PD Bell 407 or 530F, rear doors off, and hovering shooters either side of the windows.

Ideally multiple things at the same time.

Neither of these are viable options for the first on scene patrol guys.

It would take an hour or more to get a police helo to my AO and that's being generous.

Getting SWAT guys there and in place to do a rappel down would be even longer.

Lester Polfus

10-02-2017, 02:16 PM

Not LE - but bad guys can google too, and IMO this is a subject best left to vetted discussion forums like classes.

My first inclination would try to find the shooter and get to his location. After that your tactics are the same as any active shooter. Sending accurate fire more than a few stories up would be pretty risky even if you could identify a target. I've never practiced shooting at an upward angle so I have no idea how it affects bullet trajectory.

I can only imagine attempting to locate a shooter that you highly suspect has a full auto weapon and trying to make entry into a hotel room to deal with that situation. Balls of steel somehow comes to mind.

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I'm NotSWAT, but every time I saw rappelling mentioned in missing planning it was in the context of a planned hostage rescue where there was plenty of time to prepare and law enforcement had some control of the timeline when things kicked off.

Dunno what departments have the capability to amount a hasty assault that is planned on the fly with an air asset.

In this case, all the reports I'm seeing are that a SWAT element fixed his location via smoke alarms, did an explosive breach, and then charged through the fatal funnel.

It's time like these that I remember what one of my Sergeants told me. "When we control the timing, we can arrange everything to our advantage. When the other guy controls the timing, you have to accept that you just have to move in and it might be your day to take one for the public."

He was talking about patrol response to a school shooting specifically, but that applies doubly here.

If that guy had armed and barricaded but not shooting up the town, I'm sure LVPD SWAT could have come up with all sorts of ways to get him out of that room. In this case, they had to blow the door open and charge, accepting that one or all of them might eat some bullets in the process.

GJM

10-02-2017, 02:33 PM

Neither of these are viable options for the first on scene patrol guys.

It would take an hour or more to get a police helo to my AO and that's being generous.

Getting SWAT guys there and in place to do a rappel down would be even longer.

Leaving aside tactics, and focusing just on availability -- per my buddy, Las Vegas PD has six 530F (Little Bird) helicopters, and one EC 145, and usually at least one helicopter in the air at all times. Base is North Las Vegas Airport, 8.1 nautical miles from the crime scene.

Lester Polfus

10-02-2017, 02:37 PM

Leaving aside tactics, and focusing just on availability -- per my buddy, Las Vegas PD has six 530F (Little Bird) helicopters, and one EC 145, and usually at least one helicopter in the air at all times. Base is North Las Vegas Airport, 8.1 nautical miles from the crime scene.

It sounds like an air unit picking up a SWAT sniper and responding is at least theoretically possible. I've seen Little Birds land in places I'd have trouble turning around my pickup.

If it isn't practiced though, you probably won't do it for reals.

I wonder if more folks will start practicing this sort of thing.

GJM

10-02-2017, 02:42 PM

It sounds like an air unit picking up a SWAT sniper and responding is at least theoretically possible. I've seen Little Birds land in places I'd have trouble turning around my pickup.

If it isn't practiced though, you probably won't do it for reals.

I wonder if more folks will start practicing this sort of thing.

Las Vegas already does a lot of very difficult Little Bird flying, usually in a SAR capacity.

TGS

10-02-2017, 03:13 PM

Helicopters typically don't do well against automatic weapons fire at close range. There's a reason that even armored combat helicopters rely on stand-off and indirect line-of-sight as their primary method of defense.

Unless a local PD has access to armored birds like a Mi-24 Hind, trying to solve this situation with a helicopter having a direct line of sight and close proximity to the shooter seems like a guaranteed way to ensure a helicopter gets shot up and crashes, potentially causing exponentially more casualties if it goes into a building.....

okie john

10-02-2017, 03:17 PM

In terms of Texas Tower, you do not have to be as accurate as there aren't any people immediately around that area, but you still should not miss (obviously).

You're still firing a high-powered rifle upward at an angle that's probably pretty close to maximizing the range of whatever cartridge you're firing. At that kind of range, wind comes into play, so there's no telling where those rounds are going to land. Plus you've got a major city in your range fan.

It's a horrible situation no matter what.

Okie John

Chance

10-02-2017, 03:42 PM

I asked Paul Howe about this, and he's reserving comment until additional information comes in. At that point, I suspect he'll pen an article on the topic.

His initial comments were basically: suppress if you can, and maneuver. If the ceiling is concrete, you can bounce rounds off it to get to the rearward parts of the room. That was all he mentioned in our brief e-mail exchange.

The minuscule amount I know about high-angle shooting says it will cause you to hit high, due to the fact gravity only acts on the round over the horizontal distance, rather than the actual (I think "hypotenutical" is a word?) distance. [Source (https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Ballistics-Long-Range-Shooting-Understanding-ebook/dp/B01A9IAUNO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506976652&sr=8-1&keywords=bryan+litz)] So if you haven't trained in high-angle beforehand, that sounds like a problem.

voodoo_man

10-02-2017, 04:14 PM

You're still firing a high-powered rifle upward at an angle that's probably pretty close to maximizing the range of whatever cartridge you're firing. At that kind of range, wind comes into play, so there's no telling where those rounds are going to land. Plus you've got a major city in your range fan.

It's a horrible situation no matter what.

Okie John

Unfortunately it's a crappy situation no matter which way you cut it. Stopping the thread should be #1 priority. The issue is if guys aren't trained up with crappy equipment then they might miss and that backdrop is a total no shoot.

Having good equipment and training on how to properly use it paramount.

Shotgun

10-02-2017, 04:32 PM

Mark D

10-02-2017, 04:52 PM

Lester Polfus

10-02-2017, 04:55 PM

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm

http://www.millettsights.com/downloads/shootinguphillanddownhill.pdf

At 400 yards you might be holding as low as 10 to 12 inches, but that is a rough estimate. I don't know where one could go to actually practice shots at a distance with steep angles.

That's a problem for people that are much more high speed and low drag than me. There are some facilities that are equipped for practice from an elevated tower, shooting down. They are typically not open to your average joe. I'm not aware of anyplace where you can practice shooting up at a target 300 some odd feet above you.

Because we hunt the mountains out here during elk seasons, I've done some work with a slope doper (https://www.amazon.com/SLOPE-DOPER-INC-Slope-Doper/dp/B00YHRH8RK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506981156&sr=8-1&keywords=slope+doper) in some spots in the National Forest where I can safely shoot at a target at a higher or lower elevation. I've done it more to figure out a range/slope envelope where I'm green to take a shot inside it, but red outside of it.

It's a non-trivial problem.

BehindBlueI's

10-02-2017, 05:37 PM

There's some Hollywood inspired bullshit in this thread. Fuck, why don't we just have a sharpshooter hang glide over from a taller building?

It's a barricaded shooter. There's not much that changes other than you have one exterior wall that's not available for breaching. You're going to deal with it from inside the structure using the same basic tactics you would on any other confined and barricaded suspect, with the tempo being dictated by if he's still an active shooter or not.

Erick Gelhaus

10-02-2017, 05:59 PM

How about:

1) through the door, with a secondary benefit of distracting the shooter from engaging outside.

2) lowering two guys in harnesses either side of the shootr's window(s).

3) taking a Las Vegas PD Bell 407 or 530F, rear doors off, and hovering shooters either side of the windows.

Ideally multiple things at the same time.

Once the BadGuy's location is found, patrol could fix him in place pending the arrival of those with better capabilities. If led well, competently equipped & trained, and confident in their admin's handling of things, it is possible a patrol element could affect the breach and engage the badguy. There are a helluva lot of qualifiers in that sentence. I "think" I read somewhere in all that has come out today that patrol / security(???) tried engaging the suspect through the barricaded room door but got forced back. Also, I've seen stories, reports saying that two on-duty coppers were wounded by the suspect while engaging him. Completely unsure at this point though;

My recollection is that LVMPD has done #2 for real, based on discussions with a TL on an enhanced bureau team;

More & more agencies are going down the road of putting trained guys with rifles in the back seats of their birds. During the aftermath of an armored car robbery with multiple crime scenes, multiple jurisdictions, and more, a local Sheriff's Office that has trained on it, pulled the rear doors on a Long Ranger and put a sniper on either side of the bird as overwatch during a couple hour search for an outstanding suspect. While they did not have to engage, they were super useful when the BadGuy was found by a perimeter patrol deputy in a creek bottom. If an agency can support this training, I'd suggest that once SWAT is up to speed they start feeding a few patrol rifle guys into the pipeline. It may be easier to find one of them than to wait for a sniper to be available & in position.

That said, hovering anything un-armored sideways IFO a fighting position prep'd by a BadGuy intent on doing harm to a whole bunch of people may not be the best idea. And I'd strongly argue against it.

JV_

10-02-2017, 06:06 PM

One thing to consider: 30'ish stories is high up ... it has wildly different winds than at ground level.

At 400 yards you might be holding as low as 10 to 12 inches, but that is a rough estimate. I don't know where one could go to actually practice shots at a distance with steep angles.

Here's one place that I used to frequent in WV, it's a private farm:

20566

The white dot under the power lines, in that vertical clearing, was the target:

20567

voodoo_man

10-02-2017, 06:09 PM

Just to bring up a point...

More and more patrol officers are moving (and should be) towards swat level equipment and training. While a departments swat team will be tasked with specific hostage rescue type and other special circumstances.

There are not many situations which a well equipped and trained group of patrol officers cannot overcome.

JV_

10-02-2017, 06:18 PM

Oops ... just realized this is the LE sub-forum. I'll bow out - not my lane.

Lon

10-02-2017, 07:17 PM

I don't know where one could go to actually practice shots at a distance with steep angles.

And thats the crux of the problem.

GJM

10-02-2017, 08:13 PM

And thats the crux of the problem.

These guys were doing a course in WY with an outfitter, out of Alpine, Wyoming, supposedly doing lots of high angle stuff.

SamAdams

10-02-2017, 08:25 PM

These guys were doing a course in WY with an outfitter, out of Alpine, Wyoming, supposedly doing lots of high angle stuff.

Except that you run the risk of being shot at (an admittedly Big difference requiring cover) this 'problem' would have similarities to those faced by high mountain big game rifle hunters.

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TC215

10-02-2017, 08:42 PM

One thing to consider: 30'ish stories is high up ... it has wildly different winds than at ground level.

Here's one place that I used to frequent in WV, it's a private farm:

20566

The white dot under the power lines, in that vertical clearing, was the target:

20567

Not necessarily “wildly different”.

I just looked at the “winds aloft” for my area right now, wind is blowing out of the same direction at three thousand, six thousand, and nine thousand feet, within about a 10 knot range.

Now, I’ve spent about my entirely like flying in country that looks like the pictures you posted. Wind definitely does some funny things in the mountains. But it’s not really a fair comparison.

Sure, the wind could be different at 30-stories, but in that situation, it would be pretty low on my list of things to worry about.

GJM

10-02-2017, 08:57 PM

Same boat as JV, no LE experience, just thinking out loud with the benefit of hindsight. Could they have:

1) turned sprinklers on in that section of the hotel rooms.

2) turned off power and lights down below in the impact zone.

3) deployed enough smoke to obscure targeting.

4) focused a searchlight on shooter's room, either fixed or night sun on a helicopter, to interfere with his targeting.

TGS

10-02-2017, 09:13 PM

1) turned sprinklers on in that section of the hotel rooms.

Doubtful unless the hotel had a fireman in the control room, if they even have the capability to manually turn it on.

Unless of course LV hotels are unlike any I've ever been to (worked protection details at), and they have staff that handle such.

2) turned off power and lights down below in the impact zone..

Sure, but this wasn't aimed fire on a specific point target to begin with so the effect will be minimal.

3) deployed enough smoke to obscure targeting..

I've never seen patrol cops carry smoke grenades.

4) focused a searchlight on shooter's room, either fixed or night sun on a helicopter, to interfere with his targeting.

Where are you getting the searchlight?

Again, thin skinned helicopters have no business being around what is essentially a machine gun bunker.

GJM

10-02-2017, 09:28 PM

I often wonder how risk reward decisions get made during times of utter crap, and how that might vary between military and LE.

I remember on 9/11, where two unarmed F16 aircraft got launched with the mission of intercepting flight 93 before it reached D.C. With no armament, there option was to ram the commercial airliner. Same terrible choices for WTC responders. In the case of LE, not military, is there SOP as to how the lives of responders are balanced against the lives of victims. Depending upon those decisions, there might be different types of attempts made.

I have no opinion, just wondering if there SOP in LE, or do these decisions get made on the fly depending upon command structure and/or circumstances?

andre3k

10-02-2017, 10:24 PM

There are not many situations which a well equipped and trained group of patrol officers cannot overcome.

This.

Once the shooter is located the solution is fairly simple at that point. In a situation like this there's no time for putting swat guys on helicopters to fast rope through windows 30 stories up, no smoke grenades, no setting off sprinklers off to get the shooter wet. Identify the crook and the location and send guys in to go after him. My personal opinion is that an active shooter situation is probably the easiest situation to solve in LE.

Dealing with a guy that's armed like this somebody (or a few) are going to take some hits for the team going in. This is what we signed up for.

BehindBlueI's

10-02-2017, 10:24 PM

In the case of LE, not military, is there SOP as to how the lives of responders are balanced against the lives of victims. Depending upon those decisions, there might be different types of attempts made.

I have no opinion, just wondering if there SOP in LE, or do these decisions get made on the fly depending upon command structure and/or circumstances?

I suspect you'll find nobody worth listening to is going to discuss anything approaching specifics on this in an open forum. I've been through two active shooter response schools, a response to suicide bomber school, and one real active shooter event. There are best practices in place, and they are adaptable based on what you observe, what you have, and who's with you.

GJM

10-02-2017, 11:09 PM

That’s not how modern fire suppression sprinklers work.

Trivia Time: Hiram Stevens Maxim — who invented the Maxim Gun (the first portable fully automatic machine gun) and whose son, Hiram Percy Maxim, invented the silencer — invented the automatic fire sprinkler.

How do they work and is there an option to turn them on manually?

Lester Polfus

10-02-2017, 11:21 PM

How do they work and is there an option to turn them on manually?

The sprinklers are kept closed by a material that melts at a predetermined temperature, either glass or metal. As soon as it melts, the water comes on. I think there are some industrial sprinklers that can be turned on or off remotely, but the ones in multifamily dwellings, hotels and the like aren't like that.

Again, when the SWAT guys are in control of the time line, such as a planned hostage rescue, they can do all sorts of innovative stuff to create a distraction or create a tactical advantage. With an active shooter, you fix him, control his ability to maneuver and shoot him in the face as fast as you can.

Joe in PNG

10-02-2017, 11:22 PM

How do they work and is there an option to turn them on manually?

Les beat me to it

Joe in PNG

10-03-2017, 12:32 AM

They have a heat sensitive element that applies pressure to what is essentially a plug, when the ambient temperature reaches a certain level for a certain time that heat sensitive element stops applying pressure to the plug and allows water to flow through that head. Unlike every TV show or movie you’ve ever seen has depicted, fire sprinkler heads are independently activated and setting one off does not cause any others to activate. There is also no mechanism by which to remotely activate them.

It's a very elegant, reliable, simple, and cheap method to get water onto a fire, without wasting water where it isn't needed.
Plus, there's no complicated centralized mechanism to go bad, or worse, fall to a false alarm. Imagine if the sprinklers were tied to smoke detectors, and ponder all the water damage that would result because someone overcooked the popcorn.

JV_

10-03-2017, 05:32 AM

I just looked at the “winds aloft” for my area right now, wind is blowing out of the same direction at three thousand, six thousand, and nine thousand feet, within about a 10 knot range.I should have been more clear. I meant to include that the wind moving around the building also changes things. I've always been surprised when I'm in a skyscraper with windows that open.

WobblyPossum

10-03-2017, 05:47 AM

I’m not sure what activating the sprinklers in the shooter’s room would do besides make him slightly uncomfortable and provide a stream of water to cool the machine gun’s barrel.

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GJM

10-03-2017, 06:40 AM

SamAdams

10-03-2017, 07:04 AM

I'm not LEO. But my first questions would be to ask why it took that long to engage the shooter. Was it a matter of determining where the shots were coming from ? Was the delay due to waiting for resources such as SWAT ? Did the crowd remain below for 72 minutes ? Why ? What actions of crowd and police could have reduced time under fire ?

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LSP552

10-03-2017, 07:17 AM

OK then, let's turn this around. Knowing that this one shooter got 72 minutes to kill and wound hundreds of people, with the benefit of hindsight, what if anything, would be done differently next time?

It's kinda hard to AAR until you know exactly what was and wasn't done, including what resources were available to whom and the timeline.

GJM

10-03-2017, 08:10 AM

It's kinda hard to AAR until you know exactly what was and wasn't done, including what resources were available to whom and the timeline.

I hear you 552, nothing like collecting the bodies before all the second guessing starts. However, like Columbine and 9/11, I predict this will turn out to be a watershed event that influences responses here and internationally. No doubt, a bunch of bad guys across the globe have taken notice of the carnage from just one old gun and an elevated position.

scw2

10-03-2017, 08:36 AM

No doubt, a bunch of bad guys across the globe have taken notice of the carnage from just one old gun and an elevated position.

I do not really keep up with terrorist trends or anything, so maybe someone with actual knowledge can step in and fill this out a bit, but I've heard of incidents where the bad guys have men on the ground with explosives or firearms and others providing overwatch.

GJM

10-03-2017, 09:57 AM

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/network-topics/tips-tactics-network/hitting-a-high-or-low-angle-shot/

OnionsAndDragons

10-03-2017, 10:04 AM

voodoo_man

10-03-2017, 10:47 AM

I have a question and possible suggestion that might actually be realistic.

Do patrol guys in these sorts of metro areas have easy access to binos or field glasses?

If not, that might be a good addition to every cars load out. I would also think it advantageous to have a couple spotters with binos or other glass at major open events like this to just check surroundings on the regular.

I don't know exactly how long it took to identify the shooting position, but in an environ with the noise and light pollution of LV, it would likely have been easier and/or faster with perception aids.

I got nothing on LE tactics or best practices as it isn't my lane, but identifying the threat before or as soon as possible after it starts strikes me as an achievable goal.

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Bino's not issued and usually up to the individual officer. I have a pair with a certificate of calibration as if I use them in something (like a surveillance) they will be brought up in court and challenged. Most guys don't have them because of this reason.

Even if you have them will bring them out? I have not seen the full unedited version of the radio transmission but from the first call to the first radio transmission of location at the hotel was probably a good period of time. The lvmpd did well to use newer tactics for active shooters.

Not exactly the best type of situation to be in, but that's the point, right?

OnionsAndDragons

10-03-2017, 10:50 AM

Bino's not issued and usually up to the individual officer. I have a pair with a certificate of calibration as if I use them in something (like a surveillance) they will be brought up in court and challenged. Most guys don't have them because of this reason.

Even if you have them will bring them out? I have not seen the full unedited version of the radio transmission but from the first call to the first radio transmission of location at the hotel was probably a good period of time. The lvmpd did well to use newer tactics for active shooters.

Not exactly the best type of situation to be in, but that's the point, right?

Definitely, man. Thanks for the reply on that and for doing your due diligence!

Any thoughts on the guys working security details for something like this being equipped with binos or field glasses?

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BehindBlueI's

10-03-2017, 10:53 AM

Please note that this thread is in the LE sub-forum and that a lot, if not most, of the recent speculative posts are probably a better fit for General Discussion.

I'll go a step further. This thread is retarded and threads and comments like the ones here are a big reason SMEs have stopped posting here. Sorry, I know it's not Pvestivus any longer, but damn. A place to learn from experts is rapidly becoming just another site where...well, where this sort of bullshit of smoke grenades and sprinkler battles takes place.

Rex G

10-03-2017, 12:41 PM

There are high buildings in my patrol district. I have been trained to breach with a shotgun, during "active shooter" training. I wear rifle plates throughout my shift.

voodoo_man

10-03-2017, 03:04 PM

Lester Polfus

10-03-2017, 03:18 PM

Definitely, man. Thanks for the reply on that and for doing your due diligence!

Any thoughts on the guys working security details for something like this being equipped with binos or field glasses?

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You mean a security detail for a concert?

You're looking at a lack of felony convictions, a heart beat, and a pulse. Provided equipment is usually a t-shirt, and maybe a reflective vest.

octagon

10-03-2017, 06:13 PM

I'll go a step further. This thread is retarded and threads and comments like the ones here are a big reason SMEs have stopped posting here. Sorry, I know it's not Pvestivus any longer, but damn. A place to learn from experts is rapidly becoming just another site where...well, where this sort of bullshit of smoke grenades and sprinkler battles takes place.

Can you expand on the thought of why SMEs stopped posting here? You are not the only one to mention this as DaggaBoy has also and I don't think(I hope) no one is intentionally trying to piss off any SME or get them to post less or stop posting.

As to some suggestions in this thread and other there are some "way out" or even dumb ideas. However sometimes the posting of such ideas is how people who don't know that something is unreasonable learn that it is. Our agency had 2 supervisor cars and 2 SWAT cars on patrol for every shift(1 on each side of town). These cars each had a shield,smoke grenades,Sage gun,Less lethal projectiles,pepper ball gun and other specialized equipment for breaching and such less likely patrol needs.

I'm with you on the likely and probably best method for dealing with a subject like the LV shooter. However discussing similar type incidents that have occurred and/or may occur seems to make sense from multiple angles. The Texas tower incident was a surprise to responders and victims alike but shouldn't be after the first incident. In that case officers attempted to shoot the suspect from lower levels with scoped hunting rifles but was eventually solved by handgun and close range engagement. That doesn't mean a shooter couldn't choose a location such as a high rise construction crane or other elevated position with limited or protected access in the future. There was just an incident that happened in the last few months where the armed suspect climbed a construction crane.

Erick Gelhaus

10-03-2017, 10:32 PM

Bino's not issued and usually up to the individual officer. I have a pair with a certificate of calibration as if I use them in something (like a surveillance) they will be brought up in court and challenged. Most guys don't have them because of this reason.

And this is where policing is proven to be regional.

We're not issued bincoculars. Most guys with them by their own, some wait for decent pairs to come out of evidence. They haven't been an issue in any court case I've been in ... whether regular patrol, special enforcement, or investigations. If an observation has been questioned, it has been as to whether or not you had a right to be where you were when you saw what you saw.

Always interesting to see what others deal with in different parts of the country.

SamAdams

10-03-2017, 10:49 PM

I'm not a LEO, but thought every patrol car would have a good pair of binoculars in it. It's amazing to me that guys aren't issued that piece of gear. As a high mountain hunter the binoculars are my most used piece of equipment. Can't hunt what you can't see & clearly identify. They don't make it easy for you guys.

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willie

10-03-2017, 11:12 PM

Issued means the department pays, and this fact is one reason that binoculars might not be standard equipment for each car. One pair per supervisors' vehicles might be considered a more sensible budget request from bean counters' points of view. Until I read this thread, I had never considered that binoculars might be useful equipment for the beat cop. I'm not qualified to say more so I will remain silent so as not to show my ignorance.

HCM

10-04-2017, 12:50 AM

OK then, let's turn this around. Knowing that this one shooter got 72 minutes to kill and wound hundreds of people, with the benefit of hindsight, what if anything, would be done differently next time?

Your premise is faulty. It was 72 minutes from the first shots being reported to SWAT breaching the door via explosives. HOWEVER, the suspect was only firing for 11 minutes. The suspect had already stopped firing before the first patrol officer groups reached the door to the suspects suite. If the suspect had been firing when the patrol officers arrived they would have breached the door immediately rather than waiting for SWAT.

LSP is spot on way too early for an AAR.

This has drifted way off from the OP. BBI is right / thread.