Death Jam with 92A1 and WWB: gun locked up. Opnions wanted.

[fixer]

Folks,

Multiple variables with this issue but I think it is ammo related. I wanted to run this by folks here to get some opinions.

Ammo used: WWB in 200 round value pack. Not steel case.

Frequency:

2x in last 500 rounds with 92A1 (2015 vintage).
*In early 2013 I had same issue with American Eagle 124 gr in a 92fs (2013 vintage).
(These are the only 3 stoppages I've had with any 92 platform in shooting the platform since 2006 and seriously for the last 3 years.)

Issue:

Early in range session, within first two-four mags, will fire gun slow fire, freestyle, for 'cold marksmanship' drill.

First one or two shots are fine. The gun cycles as expected. Then it gets horrifically stuck out of battery about 1/4-3/8".

Can't unlock it. tap rack is like hitting a concrete curb. can't force it with hands.

I put safety on which lowers hammer. grab some blue shop towels. grab a large rock (yeah I know...but they are plentiful out here) and smack the hammer with pistol downrange and oriented downward.

It takes about 3 whacks and you can "press" the round into battery.

Now you can work take down. remove slide and barrel and pull round out.

Case looks smooth, no defects obvious.

Compared to other cases it looks visually similar. Maybe a slight bit large in diameter. But after being pressed into chamber who knows what it was before.

*In 2013 when this happened with Am. Eagle 124, and 92 fs, I had first tried the offending round in a PX4 and it wouldn't load at all. Like it was a 0.40.

I put it in the 92fs and it went 90% into battery with a slow 'kerchunk' sound. Same remediation as above. I know this round was out of spec in diameter. So I've experienced this issue with rounds being out of spec radially and the 92.

There are no defects in chamber. It is acceptable from a visual standpoint.

Have not ever had this issue with aluminum or steel case. I've run a lot of each type through this pistol. Never had this issue with Federal Champion.

So am I looking at

WWB QC?
WWB QC combined with a tight 92 chamber?
(Are 92s known for tight or loose chambers?)
Riding the slide and reducing slide's energy to load?
Magazine issue? (Happened with different mags that are known to be clean and function)

The only common thing between these issues is that both the 92fs and 92A1 were fairly new when it happened (within first 2000 rds)

Thanks for any input.

[Edster]

Within the last month, a friend and I had identical failures to go into battery. We both were shooting 100 round loose-pack Winchester White Box 115 grain. Our different boxes were bought at about the same time.

The failures were with two different Gen4 Glock 17s.

It's just anecdotal evidence, of course. Personally, I'm not bothering with the stuff anymore.

[breakingtime91]

I had nothing but issues with wwb a few years ago through a couple of MPs that were incredibly reliable besides that. I would personally stay away from it

[Nephrology]

Sounds like a bulged case that you re-shaped by forcing it into the chamber.

Incidentally, I had this issue with a round of 180gr .40S&W made by Winchester for a federal LE contract (this was the purple box/purple brass stuff that SGammo sold for way cheap sometime last year). I don't buy Winchester ammo anymore.

[fixer]

Thanks for the input. Heading to range with same stuff this afternoon.

I can usually tolerate ammo issues during training but this failure type is a straight up buzz kill. If this happened in a match I'd have to give up the stage. UNSAT.

[JV_]

Keep an eye out for rounds like this, they will lock up a lot of guns.

20543

[Totem Polar]

No extra insight, save this: it has long been said that magazines are the weakness of any magazine fed weapon. After our politically-driven supply and demand ammunition hijinks over the last few years, I'm not as sure about that.

I've been using German/euro ammo for range fodder, and getting more reliability than with the big American budget stuff. FWIW.

[Hambo]

I got some Winchester Q4172 that is packaged in 50 rounds boxes. Not sure if it's the same as the 200 round boxes or not, but no FTF yet. I have had 1-2 dead primers.

[Joe in PNG]

My BIL had issues with a large mixed batch of ammo this summer- lots of out of round cases locking his XD up hard.
And most of those had Winchester headstamps, and looked like WWB.

[fixer]

300 rounds. no issues. Chalking this up to ammo.

Noticed that when I was loading the 17 round gloss mags, at 10 rounds the mag became impossible to load further unless I had a hydraulic press.

Removed the rounds and found one that looked fatter than the rest.

I think this is a case of a well-vetted $600 pistol versus a $0.20 round.

[fixer]

Keep an eye out for rounds like this, they will lock up a lot of guns.

20543

I've run across about 20-30 of those in my time shooting wwb. I was always lucky enough to catch them upon loading into magazines.

I've had some ripped all the way down the side with all the powder loose in the box.

[GOTURBACK]

It's a pain in the ass but you can also drop each one in your barrel to test fit, I shoot win white box never had many problems to speak of maybe 20,000 rounds down the pipe.

[JV_]

I was always lucky enough to catch them upon loading into magazines.I have not been so lucky. They will lock up a Glock really quick. Here are a few more:

20552

[TGS]

WWB is without doubt the worst 9mm ammo I've ever bought.

Bullets loaded upside down here and there, and a LOT of those rolled case necks as JV shows in pictures. I think about 1 out of 100 is what I've encountered.

Ammo is coming down in price. The Magtech I got for $163/1000 seems to be decent stuff. Life is too short to waste it on WWB.

[Duelist]

I used to shoot a LOT of WWB, but it's been a long time since you could get a 100rd box for 9.99 regular price, 8.50 on sale.

[fixer]

I have not been so lucky. They will lock up a Glock really quick. Here are a few more:

20552

My god what a monument to bad ammo.

For my match this coming Saturday I just bought something other than WWB.

Thanks for the input folks.

[olstyn]

Every round that comes off of my press gets chamber checked. (It must drop in, spin freely, and drop out to pass.) Threads like this make me think it might not be a bad plan to do the same with factory ammo. If Winchester's QC process is bad enough to let those mangled rounds through, it might just be worth the effort.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

How many of these issues you guys have seen firsthand with WWB were purchased at Walmart?

[Wayne Dobbs]

From an armorer perspective: NEVER force a slide or bolt into battery. If it won't close and lock, it's talking to you. Listen to what it says. It's telling you there is a mechanical obstruction in the works that must be identified and remedied. That also, perhaps specifically, includes the forward assist on the M16/M4/AR15.

[LSP552]

I had a WWB round with a bulged case lock up my Wilson 92 BT last week. It mostly went into battery but locked up tight. This happened during a string of fire and I tried the tap rack thingy when the round didn't fire and the slide wouldn't move. It took a bit of force to unlock and the case neck was crinkled from the factory and I didn't notice when loading the mag.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

From an armorer perspective: NEVER force a slide or bolt into battery. If it won't close and lock, it's talking to you. Listen to what it says. It's telling you there is a mechanical obstruction in the works that must be identified and remedied. That also, perhaps specifically, includes the forward assist on the M16/M4/AR15.

This is excellent advice, I for one would not miss the forward assist on M16 for this reason.

[Velo Dog]

It's a pain in the ass but you can also drop each one in your barrel to test fit...

I chamber check ALL of my .38 Specials before shooting. Come to think of it...all of my .44 Specials, too..and .357, .41, & .44 Magnums...

[Edster]

From an armorer perspective: NEVER force a slide or bolt into battery. If it won't close and lock, it's talking to you. Listen to what it says. It's telling you there is a mechanical obstruction in the works that must be identified and remedied. That also, perhaps specifically, includes the forward assist on the M16/M4/AR15.

What was interesting on the Glock was I initially couldn't tell it wasn't in battery. The trigger just went dead. My initial thought was a broken gun. Since I was at the range and could do some analysis, I pulled the mag, racked the slide (with more effort than normal), and dry-fired. Clicked like normal.

Inserted the magazine, chambered next round. Bang. No problem.

Put the ejected round on top of the magazine and chambered it. Trigger would not release. This time the slide was much harder to rack to eject the round.

I figured it had to be an out of spec round and put it in my "dispose" box. In retrospect, it may not have been wise to give a possibly bad round a second chance.

[Cool Breeze]

To the OP - This happened to me on a Glock 26 with wwb

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[OlongJohnson]

I have not been so lucky. They will lock up a Glock really quick. Here are a few more:

20552





My god what a monument to bad ammo.

Notice also that the cases are irregularly machined. The grooves are all different depths and widths. I don't have access to an optical comparator to see if they fall within SAAMI tolerances, but I'm betting many of them don't. Particularly the one on the right, you can see the groove is non-concentric to the main case body, so the length of the tapered part is longer on one side than the other. The short side is also shallower. From my study of the problem, it's this inconsistency that leads to adverse interactions with a Sig classic P series long extractor, in which the case is left in the chamber. If a groove is shallow or short, the front of the extractor may ride up the taper slightly and be thrown outward when the round fires, and fail to come back down in time to catch the rim as the slide moves away from the barrel. It's totally inconsistent, and even a given case will have a random outcome. The case on the far right might run if the extractor was engaged with the deeper part of the groove on the left side of the picture and FTE if the extractor was working with the shallower part of the groove toward the right of the picture. I've had some lots of ammo go 100 rounds without a failure on the M11-A1, and I've had one lot yield ~20/100 FTEs leaving the case in the chamber.

If you look at a bunch of cases, there is a very distinct difference between the WWB and others. And it has nothing to do with "cheap" - Academy-branded PPU headstamps at $9.99/box are consistent and Sig-compatible in this detail, at least as far as I've seen.

I've seen an issue on a .38 Special WWB round that led to the local Academy pulling all their stock of that SKU from the shelf before I left the store. Amazingly defective case. The mouth had been wavy, almost as if it was cut with a hole saw cutting at right angles to the case long axis. The loading process had just pressed the excess case material into the bullet, so the bullet would have had to swage about half of its perimeter past a thickness of case mouth to get moving down the barrel. Maybe in a .357 chamber, it wouldn't have mattered much. I opened one box and pulled one round to look at it, and that was the one. I've been told I have special powers to be able to do things like that...

Personally, I'm done buying WWB. Even when it runs, it's weak, inconsistent and dirty, and leaves unburned flakes all over the inside of the gun and on my arms. It's rarely cheaper than much better alternatives, even when you buy it at Walmart.

[TiroFijo]

What ever happened to "if I wouldn't drink their water, I won't shoot their ammo"...

Perhaps Winchester has a new plant in Flint :D

Or, shit happens with the best of them, sometimes.

[TiroFijo]

From an armorer perspective: NEVER force a slide or bolt into battery. If it won't close and lock, it's talking to you. Listen to what it says. It's telling you there is a mechanical obstruction in the works that must be identified and remedied. That also, perhaps specifically, includes the forward assist on the M16/M4/AR15.

Wayne, good advice. What amount of force would be tolerable?

[ReverendMeat]

Notice also that the cases are irregularly machined. The grooves are all different depths and widths. I don't have access to an optical comparator to see if they fall within SAAMI tolerances, but I'm betting many of them don't. Particularly the one on the right, you can see the groove is non-concentric to the main case body, so the length of the tapered part is longer on one side than the other. The short side is also shallower. From my study of the problem, it's this inconsistency that leads to adverse interactions with a Sig classic P series long extractor, in which the case is left in the chamber. If a groove is shallow or short, the front of the extractor may ride up the taper slightly and be thrown outward when the round fires, and fail to come back down in time to catch the rim as the slide moves away from the barrel. It's totally inconsistent, and even a given case will have a random outcome. The case on the far right might run if the extractor was engaged with the deeper part of the groove on the left side of the picture and FTE if the extractor was working with the shallower part of the groove toward the right of the picture. I've had some lots of ammo go 100 rounds without a failure on the M11-A1, and I've had one lot yield ~20/100 FTEs leaving the case in the chamber.

Is there something about the long-extractor SIGs that make them more likely to have issues with poor ammo than other guns with similar extractor designs? I couldn't for the life of me figure out what was causing all the FTExtracts on my M11A1, yours is the best explanation I've heard so far but the FTEs happened with a variety of ammo, same stuff I had put through a long extractor P226 with no issue.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Wayne, good advice. What amount of force would be tolerable?

No force. Your first move is to run the slide, which hopefully dumps the problem on the deck and loads a new round. You can push on it, and maybe it moves forward a bit. It doesn't lock....and now it doesn't open either. You want that on your hands?

[1slow]

Chamber check all carry rounds and match rounds.

[TiroFijo]

No force. Your first move is to run the slide, which hopefully dumps the problem on the deck and loads a new round. You can push on it, and maybe it moves forward a bit. It doesn't lock....and now it doesn't open either. You want that on your hands?

For range shooting/plinking, I always push softly on the slide or forward assist... if it goes in, it fires; if it doesn't, never had a problem with a stuck case.

Not the best move for defensive scenarios, being dependant of your soft touch, I know.

[OlongJohnson]

Is there something about the long-extractor SIGs that make them more likely to have issues with poor ammo than other guns with similar extractor designs? I couldn't for the life of me figure out what was causing all the FTExtracts on my M11A1, yours is the best explanation I've heard so far but the FTEs happened with a variety of ammo, same stuff I had put through a long extractor P226 with no issue.

Inspection of the brass (I keep all the FTE cases and a selection of others, including other brands that run well) makes it unequivocal in my mind what is happening and how. The evidence draws its own picture for you. I've been able to make a definite improvement by tuning the tip of the extractor a bit, but haven't cured it. I've only had one FTE that wasn't with WWB, and that was with Blazer Brass, after tuning the extractor, so I was pretty disappointed to have that happen. My best guess as to why some long extractors have issues and some don't seem to is a tolerance stack with the slide. There's also a timing component, so if the P226 slide moves more slowly than the M11-A1 slide, that may contribute. I haven't completed my study of the issue yet. There are some geometric factors I have hypothesized and intend to explore, comparisons with other pistols, etc. Ultimately, I'm confident that making a custom-dimension extractor just for this pistol can make it as reliable as any other pistol. Not anything Sig will do, or anything someone who isn't an OCD engineer would be expected to do for themselves. When I feel like I have my hands around it completely, I'll probably make a thread about it. Don't really want to derail this one any more.

Back on topic: My study of WWB brass has convinced me it's not possible to design a pistol so robust to geometric defects that Winchester will never ship a case that can stop it.

[fixer]

Thanks all for the continued input. I guess WWB is having a rough go of it.

Update: I ran approximately 135 rounds of Federal through it at a match today and there were no issues. That makes well over 400 round since the last issue. So I'm thinking this is confidently concluded to be ammo.