Browning MK 3 DBM

[jamautry]

Has anyone here tried this new Browning, http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/bar/current-production/bar-mk3-stalker-detachable-magazine.html.

Might make a good scout/practical/ranch rifle with a lpv scope.

[OlongJohnson]

That appears to be basically an FNAR with non-scary furniture and an 18" barrel. The DBM model also has the interesting feature of Pic rail sections integrated into the receiver top, providing the lowest possible rail height and correct geometry.

[GJM]

Interesting, along with the R1. LOP seems long.

[Lester Polfus]

Interesting, indeed. I agree that the LOP seems long, but that's true of most rifles out there. If it is a BAR action, I don't think there are any working parts in the stock that would keep it from being cut down.

I like the weight.

I wonder if that is a proprietary magazine? From the looks of it, I think it is.

[OlongJohnson]

FNAR mags are very heavy due to being all steel with a thick base plate and cost about $50 each. Generally regarded as reliable and available as 20-, 10- and 5-round (which is a blocked 10), all priced about the same. Do protrude out the bottom. Not meant to be disassembled, but some people press out the pins and replace them with bolts.

http://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/product/firearms/rifles/bar/mk-3-dbm/Browning%20BAR%20MK3%20DBM%20-%20031054218_D4.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/cq5dam.web.835.835.jpeg

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2196210424/fn-magazine-fn-fnar-308-winchester-steel-matte

I think it was somewhere in the Scout rifle thread, Dagga Boy mentioned trying to make the FNAR work as an AWB-compatible option and gave up. I'd be interested to hear him expound on the reasons why.

[Lester Polfus]

I'd be interested in his thoughts as well.

Wikipedia says the action is kin to the BAR action (the sporting arm, not the one my grandfather used in the Pacific to great effect). I've messed with the BAR a little, and while it's a nice "box or two of ammo every hunting season" type of gun, it's not a "go to a weekend class and burn down a case of ammo" type of gun.

[SteveB]

Not DB, but I had an early FNAR, before the light barrel came out. Good trigger and real accurate, but a terribly awkward stock and too heavy. LOP like a skeet gun.

[OlongJohnson]

Right. The FNAR is basically a BAR ShortTrac tuned up for increased durability under a heavier firing schedule, perhaps a little more accuracy, and the DBM adapted. My guess is that the "MkIII" BAR is basically incorporating whatever those improvements are under the Browning label.

Regarding the FNAR, the butt stock and fore end from a BAR Stalker bolt right on, eliminating the pistol grip, so it will no longer magically transform into a dangerous weapon when it crosses the California border. Some actually think it's a lighter, slimmer, better-handling and more attractive rifle with the conventional butt stock. You can swap out fore ends pretty easily, depending on whether you want the Pic rails. It may be possible to adapt wood furniture to make it even more Fudd-friendly.

The FNAR's pistol grip butt stock comes with a couple different Monte Carlo inserts to support using your choice of tactical Hubbles on the Pic rail, which is itself notably taller than it needs to be. There are often issues with the Pic rail's attachment. Screws might be goofy, might not have full thread engagement, the rail may have twist in it, etc. The BAR Stalker butt stock is more conventional, so you'll want to mount a scope lower. Weaver or Pic rails for a BAR hunting rifle match the curvature of the top of the FNAR receiver, but the hole spacing is different, so basic machining is necessary to adapt them. Having the ultra-low Pic features built into the receiver on this MkIII DBM is pretty awesome.

There is a shop called Short Action Customs that was doing trigger jobs on FNARs, but at some point, the trigger parts changed and are no longer suitable for that work, from what I have read. Presumably, that would apply to these new MkIII actions, too. SAC has scrubbed most FNAR references from its web site, last I checked. They do work on Howa, Sako and Tikka actions, in addition to the standard Rem700 stuff.

The main criticisms I'm aware of for use of the FNAR in a "serious" role is that, as noted in the previous post, it isn't meant to stand up to the firing schedule of an AR, as might happen if it goes through serious training. It's presented as more of a designated marksman solution for civilian LE use than a battle weapon. FN recommends returning it to them for inspection and service every 1000 rounds, which is obviously unrealistic for many people. It's not as easy to break down for detail cleaning as an AR, but probably isn't much more difficult than many other semi-auto rifles and shotguns. I haven't had one apart, but suspect the general chatter about the difficulty may be kinda like Glock people bouncing off a Beretta 92 or Sig when they see all those parts.

There seems to be a consensus on FN forums that you're wasting time and money shooting for groups with any factory ammo that isn't Federal GMM. Haven't seen too many load workups.

Anyway, that summarizes most of what I think I know about it. Some is first-hand tested, a lot is just compiling too many hours spent reading. I don't have the experience of DB, obviously, and am hoping he comes along and lays down some knowledge.

[GJM]

So, is this one or the Benelli R1 better in the practical rifle niche?

[OlongJohnson]

Pure speculation, but based on the reputation of the Benelli shotguns in 3-gun service, I'd lean toward the Italian stuff. You can probably dig up some history on how the FNAR Competition has worked for people who tried it.

https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fnar-competition/

You should set up an R1 for competition, play in a heavy class with it this winter, and tell us all about it.

[GJM]

http://www.browningowners.com/forum/index.php?threads/browning-bar-and-benelli-r1-an-informal-comparison.5184/

[Dagga Boy]

FNAR mags are very heavy due to being all steel with a thick base plate and cost about $50 each. Generally regarded as reliable and available as 20-, 10- and 5-round (which is a blocked 10), all priced about the same. Do protrude out the bottom. Not meant to be disassembled, but some people press out the pins and replace them with bolts.

http://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/product/firearms/rifles/bar/mk-3-dbm/Browning%20BAR%20MK3%20DBM%20-%20031054218_D4.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/cq5dam.web.835.835.jpeg

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2196210424/fn-magazine-fn-fnar-308-winchester-steel-matte

I think it was somewhere in the Scout rifle thread, Dagga Boy mentioned trying to make the FNAR work as an AWB-compatible option and gave up. I'd be interested to hear him expound on the reasons why.

I wanted one, but talked myself out of it a few times. Seems like problems kept emerging and other solutions would come up. Most folks who do not live in heavily restricted states don't "get" a lot of these guns. Had I stayed in California, I can guarantee I would have had a Ruger Scout rifle by now as that is where I was headed before the move.

With all that said, like the R1, some of these guns are looking really good as general purpose rifles. Like the shotgun world, the semi auto stuff is finally "getting there" in replacing pump shotguns, the practical semi auto's are becoming contenders to bolt action rifles.

[OlongJohnson]

Thanks for posting. I had somehow interpreted your previous comments to mean you'd actually messed around with them and not gotten results you liked.

[jamautry]

The listed weight is 6lbs. 10 oz so seems relatively light for a semiauto 308.

The R1 thread is what lead me to the Browning. I am looking for a lightweight rifle to use around the ranch to dispatch varmints and hogs as the opportunity arises. An AR10 or M1a would work but I wanted something slim and trim. This Browning seems to fit the bill. If the R1 was made in a short barreled 308 it would work too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[GJM]

How does the Browning Short track compare to the new MK 3?

[OlongJohnson]

Darn you for activating my answer-finding OCD.

I've been googling and watching videos for a couple hours now and can't find any concrete description of any actual mechanical upgrades or differences in all the marketing. Everything from Browning just talks about details that come down to trim and furniture. There are some comments on 24hourcampfire about consolidating to all long-action receivers but with short-action guts inside, but it's not really clear. Maybe someone should call Browning and get an actual technical download.

[GJM]

Darn you for activating my answer-finding OCD.

I've been googling and watching videos for a couple hours now and can't find any concrete description of any actual mechanical upgrades or differences in all the marketing. Everything from Browning just talks about details that come down to trim and furniture. There are some comments on 24hourcampfire about consolidating to all long-action receivers but with short-action guts inside, but it's not really clear. Maybe someone should call Browning and get an actual technical download.

I am confused as to whether these two models share the same mags, or does the new DBM use FNAR mags (or something else)? Also, can the Short Trac use ten round mags, or does it have a hinged floor plate that must be opened?

Right now, I see the R1 as a better AK walking around gun and possibly caribou/moose rifle in bear country, and the Browning better as a practical rifle/course gun.

[GJM]

Sure seems like disassembly of the Browning is hard -- wonder how necessary that is in lower 48? For AK, the R1 seems better, since I believe it comes apart like a M2 shotgun.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/01/23/bar-match-dead-long-live-bar-mk-3-dbm-detachable-box-magazine/

[OlongJohnson]

My understanding is that the ShortTrac / LongTrac use the same mags as the BAR MkII, which clip into a hinged floorplate. You're thus limited to typical hunting rifle capacity. They are different than earlier BAR mags, which sometimes can be found very inexpensively.

The new DBM appears to use the FNAR mag system, which is an additional component attached to the bottom of the receiver, adding bulk and weight. The mags slide out when a button is pushed, kinda like an AR (but the button is not reachable without changing right-hand grip). Mags look the same, receiver looks the same. It's also been marketed on the ShortTrac Hog Stalker and a Winchester variant, both with the FNAR's pistol grip. Would be weird if they didn't just plug and play what was already in production.

Not sure the FNAR and variants have been or will be available in long-action cartridges.

I thought FNAR mags were expensive...
http://www.benelliusa.com/shop/magazines/r1-magazines

It's also kinda neat the the R1 is available in .300WM and .338WM. Like they were actually aiming at competing directly with the BAR for bear defense use.

You could always put together a Fightlite lower in .375 or .458 SOCOM for a non-AR-looking bear country solution. Might end up a little lighter and more compact, although it may not be as high-quality and turn-key as either the Browning or Benelli.

[Lester Polfus]

I am confused as to whether these two models share the same mags, or does the new DBM use FNAR mags (or something else)? Also, can the Short Trac use ten round mags, or does it have a hinged floor plate that must be opened?

Right now, I see the R1 as a better AK walking around gun and possibly caribou/moose rifle in bear country, and the Browning better as a practical rifle/course gun.

They've actually dropped the Short-Trac and Long-Trac designation, and now they are just BAR's. They all have the hinged floor plate. Handy for unloading the gun so you can put in the truck whilst hunting, but not what we need in a "practical rifle."

I can't figure out the FN-AR and Mk3 DBM magazine comparability question. Brownells sells the FN-AR mags, but lists them just for the FN-AR. They have part #3108929200 for the 10 round mag.

The 10 round mag for the MK3 DBM is listed as Item Number 112025056 and UPC 023614486589 on the Browning website.

Making them a common part is exactly the sort of thing that Browning is known for not doing.

[Wheeler]

They've actually dropped the Short-Trac and Long-Trac designation, and now they are just BAR's. They all have the hinged floor plate. Handy for unloading the gun so you can put in the truck whilst hunting, but not what we need in a "practical rifle."

I can't figure out the FN-AR and Mk3 DBM magazine comparability question. Brownells sells the FN-AR mags, but lists them just for the FN-AR. They have part #3108929200 for the 10 round mag.

The 10 round mag for the MK3 DBM is listed as Item Number 112025056 and UPC 023614486589 on the Browning website.

Making them a common part is exactly the sort of thing that Browning is known for not doing.

To be fair, Browning isn't alone in that particular marketing strategy. :)

[Lester Polfus]

To be fair, Browning isn't alone in that particular marketing strategy. :)

True dat.

Before the Ruger Gunsite Scout was birthed, I built up a practical rifle based on a Ruger M77Mk2. Every now and then I do a thought exercise of evaluating a non-AR platform, semiautomatic .308 rifle to replace it and it seems like all the available options are some combination of too heavy, too fragile, or too unsupportable. It's hard to justify the time money and effort to replace something that works perfectly well.

[GJM]

I spoke to Jim Brockman tonight. He isn't familiar with the R1, besides reading about them. He said the BAR has a good reputation, and he wouldn't get too wound up about difficulty disassembling them, in lower 48 use, as foam cleaner, a bore snake and some lube will go a long way to keeping them running well.

[OlongJohnson]

Right now, I see the R1 as a better AK walking around gun and possibly caribou/moose rifle in bear country, and the Browning better as a practical rifle/course gun.

There's a lot of discussion on the web about R1 vs BAR. Worth googling if you haven't gone down that rabbit hole already. Mixed experiences with both, and opinions to go with them.

[GJM]

There's a lot of discussion on the web about R1 vs BAR. Worth googling if you haven't gone down that rabbit hole already. Mixed experiences with both, and opinions to go with them.

Can you summarize?

[OlongJohnson]

FNAR is generally considered MOA with ammo it likes, perhaps due to the heavy barrel. BARs often are, but not as consistent. Some people report that no BAR has ever been good enough for them to keep around. Newer BARs seem to be more consistently good than old ones. ShortTrac is a litte lighter than R1.

Some people report good results with R1. Others not so much. Many report R1 is more finicky about what factory ammo it likes. May group MOA with the right ammo, but 2 or even 3+ with stuff it doesn't like. Interestingly, there were comments indicating consensus on a Benelli forum that the R1 just isn't that accurate. Recoil is likely to be felt a bit less with the Comfortech stock. R1 is easier to take down for cleaning, but many say the Browning stays cleaner internally, so it doesn't need to be cleaned as often. You can put a cleaning rod through the R1 barrel from the breech end, but a poster somewhere said he had real problems with return to zero when it was taken down for cleaning, and he was able to walk shots off the paper with fore end torque. Another poster concurred that the front sling swivel being mounted to the forend fastener had led to it loosening in the field. Someone else said he ended up with twigs and debris in the action behind the bolt after a brush hunt with the open ejection port; BAR's port may be smaller? One said the clear coat on the stocks turned white when it got rained on; mostly cleared up as it dried out. Saw a guy who said the R1 just didn't carry well for him at all, went with a BAR and was much happier. Another guy said he liked the way it carried. R1 is not readily amenable to trigger work due to chromed contact surfaces; of course, chrome can be stripped and reapplied.

Seems that both rifles are subject to variation, with good and less good examples of both to be expected. As with most of the net, it can be hard to get a confidence level with the information due to the unknown competence and experiences of those posting.

I suspect you'll end up getting one of each and deciding for yourself. :)

[Lester Polfus]

My friend and I pretty much gave up experimenting with trying to make his BAR less subject to fore end pressure. It was a .338 Win Mag, which doesn't reward either the shoulder or the wallet when it comes to long experimentation sessions.

[SteveB]

The FNAR mag looks like this:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2196210424/fn-magazine-fn-fnar-308-winchester-steel-matte

The BAR mag looks like this:

http://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/product/shooting-accessories/magazines/bar-magazine/Browning%20BAR%20Magazine.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original.img.jpg

The FN mag kit in my practical rifles looks like this:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/932445/fn-tbm-trigger-guard-and-detachable-box-magazine-fn-spr-pbr-tsr-winchester-model-70-short-action-with-5-round-and-10-round-magazine

All different.

[OlongJohnson]

The FNAR mag looks like this:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2196210424/fn-magazine-fn-fnar-308-winchester-steel-matte

The BAR mag looks like this:

http://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/product/shooting-accessories/magazines/bar-magazine/Browning%20BAR%20Magazine.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original.img.jpg

The FN mag kit in my practical rifles looks like this:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/932445/fn-tbm-trigger-guard-and-detachable-box-magazine-fn-spr-pbr-tsr-winchester-model-70-short-action-with-5-round-and-10-round-magazine

All different.

Let's keep clear about what's being discussed, so people don't get confused.


This is the mag for the new BAR DBM, same as the 10-round mags for the FNAR:
http://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/product/firearms/rifles/bar/mk-3-dbm/Browning%20BAR%20MK3%20DBM%20-%20031054218_D4.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/cq5dam.web.835.835.jpeg


The BAR mag you linked is for the hinged floor plate. This is a BAR ShortTrac Stalker with hinged floor plate (BTW, this is the furniture I mentioned goes right on an FNAR):
http://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/product/firearms/rifles/bar/bar-pre2016/Browning-BAR-ShortTrac-Stalker-031330-483.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/cq5dam.web.835.835.jpeg

http://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/product/firearms/rifles/bar/bar-pre2016/Browning-BAR-ShortTrac-Stalker-031330-6697.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/cq5dam.web.835.835.jpeg


This is the BAR ShortTrac Hog Stalker Realtree Max-1, which appears to be the same magazine system as the DBM and FNAR (the whole gun is just an FNAR with different trim):
http://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/product/firearms/rifles/bar/bar-pre2016/Browning-BAR-ShorTrac-Hog-Stalker-Realtree-Max-1-031035-480.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original.img.jpg


This is the Winchester SX-AR, which appears to be the same magazine system as the DBM and FNAR (the whole gun is just an FNAR with different trim):
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/531051l-tfb.jpg


The Winchester system you linked is clearly a different system than the FNAR.

[RONK]

Benelli offers an accessory 20" barrel for the R1 in 30-06 and a 10 rd magazine.I'd like to see HK reintroduce their sporting rifles again,like the SL-7 and the HK770.

[Rex G]

After reading all of this, the desire for a decent M1 Garand has reawakened. The rifle my father carried during the Cold War; must have, someday...

(He just missed the Korean War.)

While it is not an autoloader, the Browning BLR can be had in .308, and has detachable box magazines. For those who dream of extended, higher-capacity BLR magazines, well, the lever would hit an extended magazine. A 'smith or skilled machinist could probably extend a BLR magazine, by a small amount, that would just leave clearance for the lever. The newest generation of BLR, extant since at least the mid-Nineties, have magazines that drop free.

[Wheeler]

Looks to me like one could add another three rounds of .308 to the length.

http://i.imgur.com/sXsCOBD.jpg (https://imgur.com/sXsCOBD)

I've heard rumors of a conversion to the .223 version that will accept an AR 30 rounder but I have yet to see such a creature in the wild.

[RONK]

Henry Repeating Arms has introduced their new lever rifle,"Long Ranger",in 223/5.56,.243 and .308 both with and without sights.

[Wheeler]

Henry Repeating Arms has introduced their new lever rifle,"Long Ranger",in 223/5.56,.243 and .308 both with and without sights.

I've yet to see any objective, long term based reviews on these yet.

I have a spare magazine for my BLR, I ran across a used one for less than half of what new ones go for. That will suit my purposes for now.

[OlongJohnson]

Weird little things you notice.

The bolt catch lever on the FNAR has the same little tab on it that’s on Buck Mark controls. Saw a BAR DBM on a magazine cover at B&N today, and they changed it.

[GJM]

SteveB and I each bought a BAR DBM .308 today.

[Mntneer357]

Henry Repeating Arms has introduced their new lever rifle,"Long Ranger",in 223/5.56,.243 and .308 both with and without sights.

The "Long Ranger" is also available in 6.5CM, but I have yet to find/read any long-term reviews of such an animal. Durable? Can anyone cite any data on this?

Cheers, y'all!

[OlongJohnson]

SteveB and I each bought a BAR DBM .308 today.

Earlier this summer, I handled the BAR DBM and the Benelli R1 back to back at the LGS, both in .308. Surprised to see them under one roof at the same time, actually. It was interesting.

The R1 was definitely sleeker, more svelte feeling. With a lower-capacity mag, will carry much more like a standard hunting rifle. A little like a pregnant guppy with the 10-rounder (and that's all you get), but still could carry with a hand under the mag, assuming it balances there. Would be much nicer in the woods, I think.

The Browning (FNAR with non-EBR furniture) has the big, blocky, and HEAVY mags. Will never pass for "dad's deer rifle" with a mag in it. But you can also get 20-rounders. Would serve better as an AR-10 alternative for that reason, if capacity restrictions did not apply.

Kinda like they are different tools for different purposes...

[MolonLabe416]

Looking forward to hearing from both of you on this rifle.

[GJM]

Looking forward to hearing from both of you on this rifle.

Steve and I are calling them the “BDR.”

[MolonLabe416]

Browning Defensive Rifle?

[GJM]

Browning Defensive Rifle?

Biden Defensive Rifle

[OlongJohnson]

Didja get polymer stocks or walnut?

[GJM]

Didja get polymer stocks or walnut?

Polymer.

Steve is thinking of putting a 1-4 on and I am leaning towards an Aimpoint Micro.

[JHC]

Steve and I are calling them the “BDR.”

What would be your preferred caliber if Browning would offer it in anything you wanted?

[JHC]

Biden Defensive Rifle

If the election goes like most polls show, like mass extinctions in the distant past, new forms will appear.

[GJM]

What would be your preferred caliber if Browning would offer it in anything you wanted?

I think 6.5 for shooting, but I sure do have a lot of .308/7.62x51 ammo, and that is probably a more versatile choice for use as a BDR.

[DamonL]

For some reason, the "BDR" reminds me of Frank Hamer and the Remington 8.

https://www.facebook.com/1199287713557074/posts/gun-of-the-day-the-remington-model-8-30-remington-semi-automatic-rifle85-years-a/1312761498876361/

[Rex G]

BDM, a Remington Model 8 for the 21st Century. :)

[OlongJohnson]

I picked up an FNAR a few years back, and added BAR Stalker furniture to take away its eevility. The BAR Mk3 DBM has much better scope mounts - PIC rails machined into the top of the receiver vs. a giant, tall rail. Low, light and bombproof vs. wanna-be precision long-distance rail made to mount a Hubble.

The mounts mainly, but also the slightly shorter barrel and opportunity for fudd-friendly walnut furniture has me thinking about how to arbitrage my way from the FNAR to a BAR. Sell now to get my money out and pick up a Browning when they eventually come back in stock somewhere with a decent price, or wait to buy a Browning and then sell the FNAR?

[Lester Polfus]

For some reason, the "BDR" reminds me of Frank Hamer and the Remington 8.

https://www.facebook.com/1199287713557074/posts/gun-of-the-day-the-remington-model-8-30-remington-semi-automatic-rifle85-years-a/1312761498876361/

'Zactly what I was thinking.

Unfortunately, in Washington State, it's still an "assault rifle" so if I want to go that route I still have to jump through all the hoops I would have to jump through for an AR10.

[GJM]

'Zactly what I was thinking.

Unfortunately, in Washington State, it's still an "assault rifle" so if I want to go that route I still have to jump through all the hoops I would have to jump through for an AR10.

I thought it was supposed to be 50 state legal according to Browning, what in Washington state would make this an assault rifle?

[OlongJohnson]

Any semi-automatic rifle became an assault rifle in WA, per the 2016 ballot measure brought to you by three households of billionaires. Yes, a hundred-year-old .22LR is included in that.

[DamonL]

(26) "Semiautomatic assault rifle" means any rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.
"Semiautomatic assault rifle" does not include antique firearms, any firearm that has been made permanently inoperable, or any firearm that is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action.

https://apps.leg.wa.gov/Rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010

I did not know Washington state was worse then CA or NY.

[Lester Polfus]

I thought it was supposed to be 50 state legal according to Browning, what in Washington state would make this an assault rifle?

It is "legal" in the sense that you can go buy one, hence it is not "banned" in Washington State.

Under Initiative 1639 (https://www.sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/initiatives/finaltext_1531.pdf) a "semi-automatic assault rifle" is defined as:

"Semiautomatic assault rifle" means any rifle which
utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract
the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which
requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.
"Semiautomatic assault rifle" does not include antique firearms,
any firearm that has been made permanently inoperable, or any
firearm that is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide
action."

So yes Virginia, your .22 Marlin Model 60 with the tube magazine is a "semi-automatic assault rifle" in Washington.

So it's legal to possess and transfer in Washington, but with all the additional "enhanced background check," waiting period, training requirements etc.

I see no restrictions on you traveling here from out of state with one.

Yet.

[Rex G]

Well, if BAR is a legal problem, there is the BLR. Browning Left-Coast Rifle. ;)

E.T.A.: I actually really like the BLR, having Lightning and TakeDown versions, both .308 Winchester.

[SteveB]

The rifle arrived today, and I am pleasantly surprised. The LOP is too long, and while it doesn’t look like that will be an easy fix, it’s not that big a deal on a semi-auto. The bolt release and mag releases are too far forward, but I can deal with that. The mags are steel and weigh just under 1/2 lb each. The 18” medium barrel is fluted with a recessed crown. Trigger breaks at 3 1/2 lbs. Picatinny scope mounts are integral to the receiver; I was able to mount a 1-4X24 in low rings. Recessed sling swivel cups are in the bottom of the buttstock and the front of the fore end. There’s a stud for a bipod, or, maybe a light. This rifle’s shotgun heritage is evident in both the bolt/charging handle arrangement and the stock. It comes with 6 shims to adjust cast and drop; the neutral shim is installed. The barrel is not free-floated, and it is not immediately apparent how to get the barreled action out of the stock. The trigger group is retained with solid pins. Overall, it handles well; shooting report to follow.

58953

58954

[OlongJohnson]

The barrel is not free-floated, and it is not immediately apparent how to get the barreled action out of the stock. The trigger group is retained with solid pins. Overall, it handles well; shooting report to follow.

I drove down to Rex G's favorite LGS and checked out their poly-stocked rifle after work tonight.

I noticed there's a socket head cap screw in the bottom of the swivel cup at the front of the forend. I imagine it's related to holding the forend onto the action. The butt stock should be covered in the owner's manual, as the drop & cast adjusting shims are included.

What is the spacing of the Picatinny rail section? i.e., how far is it from the forward-most notch of the front section to the corresponding forward-most notch of the rear section? I'm looking at what scope I would want to mount on it. Trouble is brewing.

[SteveB]

I drove down to Rex G's favorite LGS and checked out their poly-stocked rifle after work tonight.

I noticed there's a socket head cap screw in the bottom of the swivel cup at the front of the forend. I imagine it's related to holding the forend onto the action. The butt stock should be covered in the owner's manual, as the drop & cast adjusting shims are included.

What is the spacing of the Picatinny rail section? i.e., how far is it from the forward-most notch of the front section to the corresponding forward-most notch of the rear section? I'm looking at what scope I would want to mount on it. Trouble is brewing.

OJ, thanks for that tip; I see the Allen screw you mention, and will pull the thing apart soon. As far as the pic rail goes, the measurement you’re asking about is 4 3/4”.

[OlongJohnson]

Did some searching for reviews tonight.

Found a lot of people saying their BARs in .308 liked factory ammo in the 150gr range, often the cheaper stuff. Fusion and Winchester frequently gave good results. A frequent scenario was trying a bunch of different factory loads with mediocre results before finding one that would wake up and be awesome. Almost like a .22.

One thing to be aware of is that the extended pressure curve of Superformance ammo could cause things to get weird with this gas gun.

https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/resources/superformance-in-gas-guns.pdf

The Hornady materials have changed. Several years ago, they recommended against using Superformance in rifles with gas systems below a certain length. Now they just recommend an adjustable gas block, which is fairly useless information with this "not an AR" rifle. I remember the BAR was marginal when I looked into it then. I have seen a report of a BAR action being damaged, apparently by ammo selection. It was attributed to bullet weight, but Superformance loads may have been an issue.

[OlongJohnson]

Someone just paid $116 each shipped for three new 20 round mags.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/876867030

ETA - Was that you, George?

[SteveB]

Shooting the MK3 this morning was pretty routine, in a good way. I have 3 of the 10-rd mags so I zeroed at 50 and ran 30 rounds of NATO ball through the gun. No hiccups, mags drop right out, but take a little attention to insert properly. Recoil is pretty mild, but I’m not recoil-sensitive. As I mentioned previously, the LOP is too long and the mag and bolt releases are too far forward, but this rifle was not designed for speed. Re-zeroed at 100 and shot groups: From largest to smallest groups:
Remington 150 Core-Lokt
Federal 130 OTM
Hornady 155 TAP
Nosler 150 E-TIP
Barnes 168 TTSX
Federal 168 Berger Hybrid
Doofus alert: Take all of this with a grain of salt. All shooting today was done with a Steiner 1-4; I had a 10X scope, but forgot the wrench to switch the scopes. I’ll reshoot for group size, but what I saw today was interesting. Couple years ago, I spent some time with a Benelli R1; it liked 150’s the best and the Remington in particular. Even so, it never shot great, maybe 1.5”. The Browning does not like the Remington load, over 2”, but both the 168’s shot under an inch. Since the Barnes is my hunting load, I’m happy. Not a bad trigger, but a bit of creep; we’ll see how it shoots in. I might pull the trigger pack and see if it’s amenable to a gentle cleanup.

[OlongJohnson]

There used to be a guy who was active doing FNAR triggers, but a few years ago, he stopped taking in that work. I never did find a place where he explained why he stopped in detail. Don't know whether production on the guns changed or he figured out something that had been there all along.

ETA: It was Mark at http://www.shortactioncustoms.com/. I sent him an email to confirm/deny it.

The trigger on my FNAR is not awesome. Most of my other CF rifles are Tikka, Howa and Geissele triggers, though.

[GJM]

Someone just paid $116 each shipped for three new 20 round mags.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/876867030

ETA - Was that you, George?

Not me.

[OlongJohnson]

ETA: It was Mark at http://www.shortactioncustoms.com/. I sent him an email to confirm/deny it.

Received response:


Unfortunately, we are not offering any FNAR work and we have not for a few years now. I'm not sure who is doing work on them anymore, so I don't really know if there is anything we can do to help.

[OlongJohnson]

Someone just paid $116 each shipped for three new 20 round mags.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/876867030

The follow-on auction just closed at $631 shipped for three magazines. Pretty sure I could make two of the 10s into a workable 20 for that that kinda money.

[GJM]

I just bought three at Wholesale Hunter for $69 each.

[Rex G]

I just bought three at Wholesale Hunter for $69 each.

That is about what I saw on the shelf, at the local gun emporium.

[OlongJohnson]

I just bought three at Wholesale Hunter for $69 each.

10 round or 20 round? The key is 20s, as it seems Browning isn’t selling them and they were discontinued by FN several years ago.

ETA: Wholesale Hunter has three separate listings for the FN 20-round part, all are on "backorder." They list the current Browning p/n at $69.xx. A quick check of gun.deals shows online pricing for the Browning 10-rounder at $60 or a little below at lots of places.

Annoyingly, some distributor's database got a photo of the standard, non-DBM BAR magazine associated with the DBM UPC, so you'll get the wrong photo almost everywhere. Situations like this are why I always go by part number, not the picture.

Rex G, if Collector’s has the 20s, please LMK so I can jump in the truck!

[Rex G]

10 round or 20 round? The key is 20s, as it seems Browning isn’t selling them and they were discontinued by FN several years ago.

ETA: Wholesale Hunter has three separate listings for the FN 20-round part, all are on "backorder." They list the current Browning p/n at $69.xx. A quick check of gun.deals shows online pricing for the Browning 10-rounder at $60 or a little below at lots of places.

Annoyingly, some distributor's database got a photo of the standard, non-DBM BAR magazine associated with the DBM UPC, so you'll get the wrong photo almost everywhere. Situations like this are why I always go by part number, not the picture.

Rex G, if Collector’s has the 20s, please LMK so I can jump in the truck!

I did not look to see if 10 or 20. There was one on the shelf. Might want to get on the phone.

[GJM]

I picked up my DBM this morning. Have not shot it yet, but my initial impressions are very positive. I could see this as a walking around long gun around dangerous animals, or for hunting around dangerous animals, like for deer on Kodiak Island. Aimpoint micro for straight defense and a 1-6 for hunting.

[SteveB]

These are available again; getting notices from many retailers.

[Rex G]

Y’all are tempting me to try one of these rifles. I recently handled the non-DBM version, at a local gun store. Ergonomics seem much like my favored Benelli M2 shotguns, particularly the safety being in a familiar place, .308 Winchester, 10-round mags available without breaking the bank; what’s not to like? (Yes, I am OK with ten-round mags.)

I had long been eyeing the pre-Mark III BARs, wishing that Browning would release a version that takes BLR mags. Well, now we have the Mark III DBM. It cannot share mags with my BLRs, but it is remarkable when any firearms manufacturer makes something this close to something for which I had wished.

[OlongJohnson]

Collector's has had a DBM with black poly stocks every time I've been there in recent months.

[GJM]

Put a Nightforce 1-4 in NF ultralight low rings on the rifle. This scope matches well, although I am not keen on the camo pattern.

60150

60151

It was only boresighted, and I didn’t have a chance to get to a range longer than 25 yards. Zero was close enough and I shot it on a pistol array to see how it would work for close quick action. The gun functioned and was very comfortable to shoot. Trigger is surprisingly good. Safety is a bit stiff but not terrible for how I envision using this. Here it is on a pistol array.


https://youtu.be/L9_19SfRYmA

[GJM]

End of my pistol session, I got to shoot the DBM at 100 yards. Keep in mind I have a NF 1-4 circle dot scope, which is not ideal for shooting small groups. I got a rough zero with Federal 168 match, and for three shot groups was getting about 2 inches, decent for my use of this rifle but nothing to write home about. Then I tried Federal Trophy Bonded 150 Copper. It definitely shows promise!

60211

60212

[OlongJohnson]

Saw excellent groups reported with 150gr Fusions on another site.

[Rex G]

Collector's has had a DBM with black poly stocks every time I've been there in recent months.

Well, ding-dang-darn-it, somebody JUST bought the .308 BLR, at Collectors, that I was wantin’ to put on lay-awake, I mean, lay-away, so, I just might have to settle for that BAR DBM, after all....

Sigh.

Yes, I have two BLRs, already, both .308, but wanted to try the version with the straight-grip stock. Plus, that spare-and-a-spare concept...

[SteveB]

While rooting around in a box of magazines for guns I don’t have anymore, I came across a 20-rd .308 FNAR mag. Looks like a longer version of the BAR MK3 DBM mag. Inserts, locks and drops free; locks the bolt back. Seems likely it will work fine in this rifle.

61072

61073

[MolonLabe416]

Gentlemen

Any updates on this rifle?

Thanks.

[MolonLabe416]

Gentlemen

Any updates?

[MolonLabe416]

I finally ordered one of these rifles.

Any updates, thoughts, tricks, concerns appreciated.

[JonInWA]

Watching with interest, but personally the Tikka T3X Arctic bolt action with its 10 round detachable magazine would be my personal choice in a contemporary production walk-around/defensive/hunting rifle, in .308.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

I finally ordered one of these rifles.

Any updates, thoughts, tricks, concerns appreciated.

I have a NF 1-4 on mine, and it is a handy, lightweight capable package.

[Rex G]

These rifles are starting to appear, again, on an LGS’ gun rack, with some regularity. Temptingly so.

[GJM]

Watching with interest, but personally the Tikka T3X Arctic bolt action with its 10 round detachable magazine would be my personal choice in a contemporary production walk-around/defensive/hunting rifle, in .308.

Best, Jon

I love the concept of that Tikka, but for more money, more weight and not a semi auto .....

[JonInWA]

I love the concept of that Tikka, but for more money, more weight and not a semi auto .....

No disagreement, George. But I really like the durability, relative simplicity, and interchangable magazines. The iron sights look superb (but I haven't had the opportunity to handle/shoot one in person yet).

I wish that it had the concurrent capability of being reloaded with charging clips like the Lee Enfield, its predecessor in the Canadian Rangers.

Cost (and additional magazine cost) is undeniably up there.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

No disagreement, George. But I really like the durability, relative simplicity, and interchangable magazines. The iron sights look superb (but I haven't had the opportunity to handle/shoot one in person yet).

I wish that it had the concurrent capability of being reloaded with charging clips like the Lee Enfield, its predecessor in the Canadian Rangers.

Cost (and additional magazine cost) is undeniably up there.

Best, Jon

In the Scout bolt action niche, the Sig Cross is very attractive.

[Rex G]

In the Scout bolt action niche, the Sig Cross is very attractive.

The SIG Cross has the added advantage of being a better “bag gun,” for those whose environments would make that a useful feature. If my LGS would ever manage to get a .308 Cross in stock, rather than usual 6.5, I would probably be unable to resist an impulse buy, or at least an impulse lay-awake, er, I mean lay-away. (I do not have enough hair to grow the requisite man-bun, so am ineligible to acquire a 6.5 version.)

[OlongJohnson]

(I do not have enough hair to grow the requisite man-bun, so am ineligible to acquire a 6.5 version.)

You can always do the geezer-tail. Bald in the front, party in the back.

[ccmdfd]

In the Scout bolt action niche, the Sig Cross is very attractive.

Have all the (reported on the web) kinks been worked out?

[OlongJohnson]

There are a couple of these in sinister-handed form in the rack at Collector's Firearms in Houston. The wood finish is a little glossier, more like the sporter versions. The RH Mk3 DBMs I've handled have been a more matte finish.

https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/bar/limited/bar-mk3-dbm-wood-left-hand.html

Notice the rail machined integrally into the receiver is a little higher, and continuous, rather than just the two patches shown on the RH version. I don't know if that's only for the differently-machined LH receiver or if it is a design change that will also apply to new production of the RH receiver and just hasn't been rephotographed for the web site.

https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/bar/current/bar-mk-3-dbm-wood.html

Rex G

[Rex G]

There are a couple of these in sinister-handed form in the rack at Collector's Firearms in Houston. The wood finish is a little glossier, more like the sporter versions. The RH Mk3 DBMs I've handled have been a more matte finish.

https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/bar/limited/bar-mk3-dbm-wood-left-hand.html

Notice the rail machined integrally into the receiver is a little higher, and continuous, rather than just the two patches shown on the RH version. I don't know if that's only for the differently-machined LH receiver or if it is a design change that will also apply to new production of the RH receiver and just hasn't been rephotographed for the web site.

https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/bar/current/bar-mk-3-dbm-wood.html

Rex G

I saw those, already, but thanks for the heads-up. Even though I write left-handed, and am left-eye dominant, I have always kept my long guns, that have cross-bolt safeties, in their original righty configuration, so, a left-hand BAR Mk3 DBM would present me with a dilemma, deciding whether to finally make the big switch at age 60. My initial reaction is to stay with right-hand-configured long guns, except for turn-bolt rifles.

I have already experienced with the cognitive dissonance caused by having started using AR15/M4 rifles, which on “semi” when the Dingus Is Down, after having been thoroughly
indoctrinated “Don’t Get Caught With Your Dingus Down,” with some pistols, and PD-issued Tasers. Even though I am now retired, and so no longer doing the mandated spark test 5+ times a week, that conflict in safety-/selector-lever operation is still there, and a major reason that I do not keep an AR15/M4 loaded and prepped for sudden social problems.

[OlongJohnson]

I've been watching the 20-rd FNAR mags on GB since spring 2020. I've seen them go as high as ~$160/ea at the height of the craziness and for the last year or so, they've been consistently in the $100-120/ea range. Just received my shipment for a pair I got with BIN for $75 shipped. For the pair, still sealed in the factory plastic wrappers. GB can be awesome.

[OlongJohnson]

The market is fairly awash with these guns right now, but with 20-round magazines clearing $200/ea on GB lately, I'm looking at my collection of them and thinking about getting rid of the whole mess. My excuse for having the money in it is AWB states such as CA, but when I'm honest, I have at least three other long gun options I'd realistically pack for such a trip before this, as they make more sense than .308 in any defensive scenario not involving large, four-legged critters. I could flip my pile of 20-round mags now (keeping enough 10-rounders to be useful) and wait for the current supply of guns in distribution to dry up.

Also, the trigger on mine is horrible and, two years later, Browning still can't tell me part numbers for spares or when they'll have them. I've been holding off taking it apart and putting the stones on those until I know replacements are available. Not that I've ever had to replace such parts after working on them, but it seems prudent to at least have the option rather than risk deadlining an expensive gun. I'm being extra conservative in mindset here, as the only place I knew that was specialized in doing trigger work on FNARs won't talk about it anymore, or say why the change. I do know they were trying to make them "target" triggers, which I am fully aware may not be in the cards for the design. I am OK with a long travel, but the roughness is bad enough to be a deal breaker for me when the other options for the role include a 1301 and slicked up 1894.

[GJM]

I was looking at mine just the other day, and thinking I need to pull it out and shoot it some. Might make a great deer rifle on Kodiak.

[GJM]

I have shot my MK3 DBM a half dozen times, since mounting the Aimpoint micro. The idea was to add a center fire equivalent to the Benelli M2 for field defense use. This rifle is pleasant to shoot, and is in a compact form factor.

It has been reliable, excepting with one magazine that appears defective new out of the package.

93027

[GJM]

I measured the LOP and it is about 14.25 -- would like to take an inch off the stock length to make it handier.

[MolonLabe416]

I cut mine (wood stock) down to 13”. Much handier.

[GJM]

I got a second DBM, and mounted a NF 1-4. Zeroed it 2 inches high at 100 yards with the Gold Dot 150 grain. It shoots this load reasonably well.

94521

94522

94523

[Super77]

Any idea if the MK actually blued, or is it nitrided? Living in the SE I've slowly divested myself of blued firearms.

[GJM]

Any idea if the MK actually blued, or is it nitrided? Living in the SE I've slowly divested myself of blued firearms.

I believe the web site says the barrel is blued.

[GJM]

While the point of .308 is to avoid such a thing, in the spirit of its use as a field rifle, here is a failure drill I did today with the Browning DBM. The safety position slows me down some in a fast presentation, although I expect to carry it in the field condition 3, with the safety in the fire position.

Right after this video, a convective cell let loose on us, totally soaking us with high 30 something degree water, and ending our practice session.


https://youtu.be/6k4N3FyrWTk

[MolonLabe416]

Sarah15 has a wood stock version listed.

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/949005748

[Super77]

Any issues with Browning Viana “made in Portugal” vs. Browning “Made in Belgium, Assembled in Portugal?”

[GJM]

The magazines are quite heavy, and between their shape/weight/slippery base pads, somewhat awkward to handle. I got the bright idea of trying a Magpul rubber thingee from an SR25 mag, but it was too long and prevented the mag from seating. Got the scissors out, and turned one into two -- seems an improvement.

94964

94965

[OlongJohnson]

Figured you'd have some 20-rounders.

[GJM]

Figured you'd have some 20-rounders.

Haven’t been able to find any — have a source?

[OlongJohnson]

Just a saved search on GB. It’s been pretty silly lately.

[Navin Johnson]

Is the SFAR a candidate to replace the Browning?

Don’t get me wrong I would love a walk around/hunting rifle in a larger caliber that was robust reliable and used readily available 10 round mags that could be a battle rifle but looks like a deer slayer. (And didn’t weigh 10 lbs ready to go)

[GJM]

Is the SFAR a candidate to replace the Browning?

Don’t get me wrong I would love a walk around/hunting rifle in a larger caliber that was robust reliable and used readily available 10 round mags that could be a battle rifle but looks like a deer slayer. (And didn’t weigh 10 lbs ready to go)

Augment but not replace, based on (evil) characteristics.

[MolonLabe416]

https://www.outdoorlife.com/gun-test-browning-bar-mk-3-dbm-rifle/

[OlongJohnson]

This buyer will be very sad if he ever realizes these are the same as Browning mags you can buy all day long today for $50-60.

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/964255437

It's the 20-round mags that are gold plated.

[OlongJohnson]

Not so much, it turns out. The ten-rounders are backordered everywhere and someone just paid $212.45 plus tax for one on fleabay.

[OlongJohnson]

Someone just paid $330 plus $10 freight and whatever tax comes to for a 5-rd FN mag on GB.

I wonder if they know it's just a 10-rd mag with a blocker in it?

Meanwhile, the 20-rd mags are edging down below the $150 that's been the floor for the last ~3 years. (I think I remember seeing one sell for ~$300-350, because that had me thinking about cashing out of my setup.)

[GJM]

Someone just paid $330 plus $10 freight and whatever tax comes to for a 5-rd FN mag on GB.

I wonder if they know it's just a 10-rd mag with a blocker in it?

Meanwhile, the 20-rd mags are edging down below the $150 that's been the floor for the last ~3 years. (I think I remember seeing one sell for ~$300-350, because that had me thinking about cashing out of my setup.)

If you can't get it done with ten rounds of .308, you may need more help than a 20!

[OlongJohnson]

If you can't get it done with ten rounds of .308, you may need more help than a 20!

If you can't get it done with 20 rounds of .308, you should have brought more friends!