Anybody Up For One of These?

[walker2713]

https://teespring.com/stores/i-dont-kneel-shirt

20399

[David S.]

Here we go.

[GCBHM]

No. It’s just not my style to rub anyone’s nose in it.


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[RoyGBiv]

They're entitled to kneel if their clubs support them. What will fans do (http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/09/25/sunday-night-football-ratings-down-amid-national-anthem-protests.html)?
I'm entitled to watch College ball on Saturday and mow the lawn on Sunday.... and spend my money at NASCAR (http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/09/24/nascar-owners-warn-drivers-about-national-anthem-protests-nfl) instead.

[walker2713]

I believe the owners, coaches and players are about to learn a very painful lesson.

I learned from my call to Directv this morning that I can only stop receiving the NFL season package before the season starts. It's already on my reminder calendar. We simply are not going to watch the NFL any longer.

Sure, the players and staff have every right to express their opinion. However, try this in your workplace and see how far it gets you. There're plenty of ways they can exercise those 1st Amendment rights on their own time. Individuals also have the right to vote with their feet, their dollars and their time.

I just ordered one of these from Amazon. One of the many pleasures of being retired is that I wear casual pants and t-shirts every day when weather permits.

20400

[Robinson]

I learned from my call to Directv this morning that I can only stop receiving the NFL season package before the season starts.

Their recording says that. But if you talk to an agent they will ask why you want to drop it and will allow you to do so.

[walker2713]

Their recording says that. But if you talk to an agent they will ask why you want to drop it and will allow you to do so.

Robinson: I spoke (at length) to an agent, and he was clear that once the season started, you could not remove it from your package. I'm unwilling to endure another effort to go through their "customer service" system in order to test that conclusion.

The website says you can't make changes online....have to call customer service....and then after an extensive excursion through the recorded menu options, you end up with an agent. While I had him on the line, I made some other changes which will reduce the revenue of Directv.

[orionz06]

No. Their opinions don't matter and responding, at all, is merely giving them the power they think they have.


And besides all that, I thought everyone stopped watching football last year?

[Robinson]

Robinson: I spoke (at length) to an agent, and he was clear that once the season started, you could not remove it from your package. I'm unwilling to endure another effort to go through their "customer service" system in order to test that conclusion.

The website says you can't make changes online....have to call customer service....and then after an extensive excursion through the recorded menu options, you end up with an agent. While I had him on the line, I made some other changes which will reduce the revenue of Directv.

I'm sorry that you had that lack of result. I dropped my subscription to NFL Sunday Ticket yesterday and was not the only person to do so according to the agent I spoke to. It's way too expensive to keep if you're not using it.

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't watch football, I don't care who kneels and who doesn't, and I never wear bumper sticker t-shirts. I'm probably not the target market.

If the kneeling hadn't gotten attention, the whole phenomena would be over by now.

[ReverendMeat]

Are we still boycotting leftist actors and singers too?

Being entertained is way more complicated than it should be anymore.

[Bigghoss]

This whole thing goes to show that people invest way too much into sports.

[TheNewbie]

Are we still boycotting leftist actors and singers too?

Being entertained is way more complicated than it should be anymore.


I can't stand the left but I'll watch left wing actors. What I don't tolerate is making everything about politics and not allowing an escape from the world for a few hours. Not to mention these fools are perpetuating a lie about the greatest country in history.

I didn't want to stop watching the NFL, but it was the least I could do to say I support the truth and what the flag represents..

[Kyle Reese]

This isn't a First Amendment issue, since a state actor isn't sanctioning the NFL or individual players for kneeling (or whatever).

I'll continue to not watch the NFL.




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[RoyGBiv]

Are we still boycotting leftist actors and singers too?

Being entertained is way more complicated than it should be anymore.

Leftist actors politics don't interrupt the show. Their whining is done offscreen, on their own time. Not counting award shows.

[NH Shooter]

Though I fully endorse the message on the shirt, I feel there is already way too much "political noise" in today's society. It's so deafening (and divisive) I feel no inclination to contribute to it, but will weigh in with my wallet as described in previous comments.

Whew, I successfully avoided a long rant....

[-ad-]

I'm not American, and have never visited the states - but I have more respect for your constitution and rights than your own sportsman.

I believe the USA constitution is the best I've seen. America has indeed being a great country - and will hopefully one day realise the fall and return to where they have once come from. These sportsmen have no idea the treasure they have, and their actions show even me - a foreigner how ungrateful and foolish they really are.

[Hambo]

ZFG about kneeling, but it does concern me that the president is engaged in a third grade Twitter fight with football players while we may be closer to popping nukes than at any time since the Cuban missile crisis.

[olstyn]

ZFG about kneeling, but it does concern me that the president is engaged in a third grade Twitter fight with football players while we may be closer to popping nukes than at any time since the Cuban missile crisis.

No kidding. Arguably he shouldn't be in any fights on Twitter with anyone. :(

[Casual Friday]

I haven't watched a single down of NFL football this season and I don't miss it at all. My Sunday afternoons are pretty lazy and care free now. In the past, I've allowed a boy's game played by grown men to have the power to ruin my afternoon and evenings, and even affect my ability to sleep. No more.

[BobLoblaw]

I'm not cool enough to be above the dissent. Being disrespectful and ungrateful to the nation and those who fought for it is enough. It really does bother me. This isn't me taking a stand or anything. It's just fucked up and I don't want to see it anymore.

[walker2713]

The Cowboys were "America's Team"

20419

[David S.]

I'm not cool enough to be above the dissent. Being disrespectful and ungrateful to the nation and those who fought for it is enough. It really does bother me. This isn't me taking a stand or anything. It's just fucked up and I don't want to see it anymore.

Don't worry. You'll be over it in a week or two when the next Outrage (TM) hits. ;)

[BobLoblaw]

Don't worry. You'll be over it in a week or two when the next Outrage (TM) hits. ;)
I knew I wouldn't poke in and poke out of this one so easily.

I don't know if I'll live my life without watching others live theirs and I'm not boycotting the NFL to "hit them where it hurts." I just don't want to be any part of that no matter how small so I'm removing myself from the equation. Not gonna lie though, if it becomes like the movie, "The Replacements," I'd buy tickets and fly out for a game.

[BobLoblaw]

The Cowboys were "America's Team"

20419
It was my understanding they kneeled and prayed as a team prior to the national anthem to avoid any disrespect. That's cool with me. I've never liked the Cowboys but they're slowly becoming cooler IMO.

[walker2713]

I'm sorry that you had that lack of result. I dropped my subscription to NFL Sunday Ticket yesterday and was not the only person to do so according to the agent I spoke to. It's way too expensive to keep if you're not using it.

You inspired me....so this morning I called them again. The first time I was "on hold" for 35 minutes, the second call I was told the call was being transferred and then it was disconnected, and the third time was a charm.

NFL Sunday Ticket was removed from my account. At one point the young man asked: why? and I laughed and told him: you know why. He agreed that he did and proceeded with the cancellation. Thanks, Robinson! :cool:

[Odin Bravo One]

Being disrespectful and ungrateful to the nation and those who fought for it is enough.


That is the majority of the population of this country. The Disrespectful and ungrateful far exceed those who are grateful and show respect..

[Duelist]

I knew I wouldn't poke in and poke out of this one so easily.

.

Phrasing. Are we not still doing phrasing?

[Robinson]

That is the majority of the population of this country. The Disrespectful and ungrateful far exceed those who are grateful and show respect..

Last Memorial Day parade I attended before we left Ohio I was almost set upon by some people around me when I told them to get off their asses and stand as the colors went by. I sort of wished they had set upon me.

[RJ]

Not really an NFL fan before, and recent events won't make me one now.

I think the players are free in this country to behave like assholes and disrespect the flag, and the people who died for it.

It's what make us up as a nation.

Just as I'm free to ignore any form of the NFL, or any corporate sponsor of their product. Frankly my life won't change an iota due to the actions of these overpaid ball players.

What I regret is that now we'll see a string of Instagram and Twitter and Facebook posts of special snowflakes from Hollywood and elsewhere 'taking a knee' to signal their virtue loud and clear.

[RJ]

It was my understanding they kneeled and prayed as a team prior to the national anthem to avoid any disrespect. That's cool with me. I've never liked the Cowboys but they're slowly becoming cooler IMO.

I will throw the "bullshit" flag on this one.

The team could have kneeled and said a prayer as a team in the locker room at a private moment before the game, if they were so inclined.

And, seriously, you are telling me THE WHOLE TEAM suddenly got religion?

Sorry, the Cowboys organization caved and wanted the story to come out so they could have it both ways.

What a load of the aforementioned bull.

(PS this is not directed at you, personally, Bob; it's just that concept of 'oh it's ok it was not during the Anthem' strikes me as very hollow.)

[BobLoblaw]

I will throw the "bullshit" flag on this one.

The team could have kneeled and said a prayer as a team in the locker room at a private moment before the game, if they were so inclined.

And, seriously, you are telling me THE WHOLE TEAM suddenly got religion?

Sorry, the Cowboys organization caved and wanted the story to come out so they could have it both ways.

What a load of the aforementioned bull.

(PS this is not directed at you, personally, Bob; it's just that concept of 'oh it's ok it was not during the Anthem' strikes me as very hollow.)

You're right of course as this was a compromise. They're still making a political statement that I don't agree with but this team wasn't being inflammatory and spitefully unpatriotic while doing so. They're a business and they know their target market. Smart move, IMO.

[orionz06]

Sorry, the Cowboys organization caved and wanted the story to come out so they could have it both ways.

That's probably true... They're gonna piss people off no matter what so why not try and save face. That's their choice as a business.

The alternative is what, forcing people to pretend to be patriotic? Would that make people happy? That doesn't sound very American. They're all a bunch of assholes who are afraid to do anything that will really cause any progress on the matters their concerned with anyway. Pay them no mind, vote with your wallet, and they'll fade away soon enough.

[StraitR]

I stopped watching the NFL about three years ago when I had more to do than time to do it. Had I not, I would have quit last season when all the political shenanigans began, and this season would simply be confirmation of my good judgment. If I wanted to watch political BS, I would turn on C-Span, not ESPN or Monday Night Football.

I applaud those who called and cancelled their NFL packages. It's sending the right message, IMO. When the NFL starts to lose TV/online viewers, ticket sales, concession sales, merchandise sales, advertising dollars and sponsorships, I imagine they'll get out of the political game real quick. In the next couple weeks, we'll see teams start to distance themselves from this in hopes of stopping the bleeding.

Frankly, as someone who doesn't watch anymore either way, I hope the NFL rots, sending a message to other professional sporting associations and athelete's that this type of crap has no business on the fields. Maybe the CFL or LFL can come take over, eh.

[walker2713]

Sorry, the Cowboys organization caved and wanted the story to come out so they could have it both ways.

Right on!

From an old Texas Democrat Lefty:

20422

[orionz06]

It was my understanding they kneeled and prayed as a team prior to the national anthem to avoid any disrespect. That's cool with me. I've never liked the Cowboys but they're slowly becoming cooler IMO.


I will throw the "bullshit" flag on this one.

The team could have kneeled and said a prayer as a team in the locker room at a private moment before the game, if they were so inclined.

And, seriously, you are telling me THE WHOLE TEAM suddenly got religion?

Sorry, the Cowboys organization caved and wanted the story to come out so they could have it both ways.

What a load of the aforementioned bull.

(PS this is not directed at you, personally, Bob; it's just that concept of 'oh it's ok it was not during the Anthem' strikes me as very hollow.)

Actually having a chance to find a better clip of the video I don't see what the issue is here. They didn't do anything other than what people wanted them do to for the anthem and prior to that they did their other thing. They acted as a team, didn't start shit, and it was over in a matter of minutes. What else are they supposed to do?

[NEPAKevin]

...a reporter asked Mattis if he had “anything to say about the NFL, being someone who has served in the military.”

“I’m the secretary of defense,” Mattis said. “We defend the country.”

[SamAdams]

The 'protestors' are a bunch of dumbass fools IMO. They have no idea what they're talking about, likely just going along with a stupid narrative that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Spoiled multi-millionaires paid to play a game. That said, I'm not into printed t-shirts. Just dark solid colors that help with carry concealment -


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=thg4lnaVIT4

[RevolverRob]

Dissent is one of the truest forms of patriotism.

Given the content of most of the posts in this thread...a lot of folks here could use a reminder in the great aphorism:

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt of it."

[SamAdams]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

All opinions aren't equally valid or even make sense.

[Leroy Suggs]

Dissent is one of the truest forms of patriotism.

Given the content of most of the posts in this thread...a lot of folks here could use a reminder in the great aphorism:

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt of it."
Dissent against the American flag and the National Anthem is NOT patriotism
Your quote removed all doubt about you..

[Joe in PNG]

Has anyone done a "KNEEL!! KNEEL BEFORE TRUMP!!" meme yet?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Dissent against the American flag and the National Anthem is NOT patriotism
Your quote removed all doubt about you..

I stayed out of this because I regarded the controversy as being started by an idiot and restarted by another idiot. This is independent of the issues of civil rights and police conduct.

However, the idea in the quote is plain old stupid symbolic tribalism. Patriotism is supporting the principles of the Constitution and the BOR. As a thought experiment, would a person who refused to stand for the anthem in the presence of a totalitarian dictator (avoiding a common Internet comparison - use your imagination and knowledge of history) might be disloyal to his or her tribe but a person who stands for the real values of humanity.

Dissent is crucial to our values. Our rights are broader than just playing gun boy or gal and jabbering about a possible ban of the Glock 54 or 1912 in 47 ACP. Dissent peacefully all you want. Wear a t-shirt if you want - wear it in the locker room of some teams.

With all the problems of the world, getting upset about this is just ridiculous. Want to get upset about football, get upset that we brain damage kids for their stupid game.

You can doubt me all you want. I stand for the greater issues of expressing your ideas and supporting free expression is patriotism.

[scw2]

Want to get upset about football, get upset that we brain damage kids for their stupid game.

I saw someone recently claim that those studies are using a biased sample. Yes, ~99% of brains from former players that were studied showed signs of CTE, but allegedly they were sampling from a population that had displayed worrying symptoms prior to their passing. I haven't had time to dig further into those claims, but would be interesting if true.

[SamAdams]

I haven't seen any riots by people rushing the field at players and their moronic 'protests'. Haven't seen anyone interfering with them in the least. (Unlike the Antifa pukes.) Recall that this was started by Kaepernick and his BLM style 'protest' of the 'mass murder of blacks by racist white police'. A completely discounted false bunch of malarkey. The number one violent killer of black people is black criminals. Kaepernick is obviously a fool.
They can do what they want and cost their team owners a ton of money. And people can choose to boycott their product. They aren't just entitled to that money & get it for providing entertainment. Personally, IMO too much attention is given to spectator sports. But that's also a personal choice.

[45dotACP]

Didn't give a shit then and....lemme check...OH YEAH!

Still don't give a shit.

Kaepernick doesn't beat the shit out of his wife, is allegedly involved in a lot of philanthropy and doesn't cheat, fight dogs or murder people. He's maybe uninformed, definitely disrespectful of the sacrifices of our men and women in Uniform and has a political slant, but the evidence suggests he's not a bad person.

Unless there's some "locker room talk" in his past. But who knows? Maybe people would vote him into office for that!

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[SamAdams]

Didn't give a shit then and....lemme check...OH YEAH!

Still don't give a shit.

Kaepernick doesn't beat the shit out of his wife, is allegedly involved in a lot of philanthropy and doesn't cheat, fight dogs or murder people. He's maybe uninformed, definitely disrespectful of the sacrifices of our men and women in Uniform and has a political slant, but the evidence suggests he's not a bad person.

Unless there's some "locker room talk" in his past. But who knows? Maybe people would vote him into office for that!

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?

Passing on the false meme 'racists white cops are committing mass murder against innocent blacks' doesn't make Kaepernick a good guy. It can only lead to more racial tension and make cops job more difficult.

Sorry, he and the others don't get a pass because of their ignorance. They do have the right to express their opinion, however. And they will be called out for it and likely pay a financial penalty in lost fan support.


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[45dotACP]

?

Passing on the false meme 'racists white cops are committing mass murder against innocent blacks' doesn't make Kaepernick a good guy. It can only lead to more racial tension and make cops job more difficult.

Sorry, he and the others don't get a pass because of their ignorance. They do have the right to express their opinion, however. And they will be called out for it and likely pay a financial penalty in lost fan support.


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True enough. He doesn't share the same views as you or I. We don't think cops kill black people willy nilly.

But he does. He's wrong in my opinion, but he's free to express his. He's loudly proclaiming his views certainly. But he's not throwing bottles through windows, beating people with 2x4s or screaming in a patrolman's face to do it.

I never much followed football and stopped watching altogether last season when he started in on this stupidity. I expect only more drops in viewership.

But then again, the POTUS has admitted to groping more women and is a far more detestable person than some dude who rides a bench for a living.

And here's the thing. Not all people are good. Cops included. I won't get involved too heavily in that point, because I don't mean to be insulting to anyone here, but there are bad apples in every bunch. Leagues of uninformed nincompoops seem to be quick to pile on Cops who had to make a legitimate deadly force decision in a split second decision in defense of life and limb. That annoys me as much as the next guy here, but there are cops who have genuinely stepped out of line. Michael Slager for instance.

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[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not to divert but I have some problem with the football agenda. I had way too many students who screwed up in class because of their 'dedication' to the game. They were recruited basically as entertainers and fund raising promoters for the school along with some of them for boosting our diversity stats . They did not have what it took for college (perhaps because of poor educational background and an emphasis in high school on sports over academics). Several of them got concussions which interfered with classes. Blinding headaches for two weeks. BTW, this was independent of race, I say again. The males in the major teams were my largest academic trouble group. It was sad.

[StraitR]

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt of it."

Says the "Winner" of PFestivus.

[Paladin]

Robinson: I spoke (at length) to an agent, and he was clear that once the season started, you could not remove it from your package. I'm unwilling to endure another effort to go through their "customer service" system in order to test that conclusion.

The website says you can't make changes online....have to call customer service....and then after an extensive excursion through the recorded menu options, you end up with an agent. While I had him on the line, I made some other changes which will reduce the revenue of Directv.

walker2713 just watched a news brief said DTV Sunday ticket will cancel and refund if customer wishes.
Rick

[RevolverRob]

Dissent against the American flag and the National Anthem is NOT patriotism
Your quote removed all doubt about you..

:rolleyes:

The symbols you're talking about have nothing to do with what patriotism is. Patriotism, means standing up, fighting for what is right, and dying to do it. False patriotism is saying that "not standing for the anthem in protest is unpatriotic". No, that's tribalism and often jingoism in the guise of tribalism.

Your attitude is a perfect reflection of why I find this entire thread disrespectful.

It isn't Kaepernick, or the Dallas Cowboys, or NFL players who are being disrespectful to the U.S., it's the individuals who condemn them for protesting who are. If you can't respect a dissenting opinion, nor the right to dissent, then you don't know the true meaning of patriotism.

Your response removed all doubt for me, too. And frankly this thread has made it such that I'm at least aware of the individuals here, who are not patriotic or claim to be, but dont understand.

Hence my quote...was a piece of advice that folks should really bear in mind, before flying off the handle.

[jc000]

Why is dissent a value? Dissent can be useful or it can be destructive. I think the USA would be a much better place if there was more consensus and less dissention around the concept that people are better off being free to manage their own lives.

Webster defines a patriot as "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests"

Sure we want to protect the voice of the minority, but the statement "dissent is patriotism" is no different from platitudes like "diversity is our strength", "freedom is slavery", "religion of peace", blah, blah, blah.

[Paladin]

Well Rob you can dress it any way you like but the majority of Americans feel that to not stand for anthem is completely unpatriotic and you can add me to that group. If they burned the flag would you say that is ok as well at some point you have to draw the line. Not standing has done nothing but create more division and not helped resolve anything. But they can do anything they like because it is a free country and good men and women have died to secure our freedoms which include those of us considering it unpatriotic to take our dollars else where.
Rick

[StraitR]

:rolleyes:

The symbols you're talking about have nothing to do with what patriotism is. Patriotism, means standing up, fighting for what is right, and dying to do it. False patriotism is saying that "not standing for the anthem in protest is unpatriotic". No, that's tribalism and often jingoism in the guise of tribalism.

Your attitude is a perfect reflection of why I find this entire thread disrespectful.

It isn't Kaepernick, or the Dallas Cowboys, or NFL players who are being disrespectful to the U.S., it's the individuals who condemn them for protesting who are. If you can't respect a dissenting opinion, nor the right to dissent, then you don't know the true meaning of patriotism.

Your response removed all doubt for me, too. And frankly this thread has made it such that I'm at least aware of the individuals here, who are not patriotic or claim to be, but dont understand.

Hence my quote...was a piece of advice that folks should really bear in mind, before flying off the handle.

It's not the act of protesting that strikes me as disrespectful, or dissenting, but rather the stage in which they choose to protest. Injecting political statements and forcing them upon the thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of people who are paying to be entertained is complete bullshit. Period.

[Welder]

I guess my biggest thing these days is how many people are flying off the handle about everything, and how often they're doing it. It's like everyone has taken leave of their senses. I guess it's because now there has to be a competition to win the internet or TV or twitter or ???? between the entire populace of our country? And doing so means driving whatever the issue is, so far out of bounds that it's ridiculous. We have strawmen on every side of every issue.

The meme about the middle of the road being a prime example. I'll tell you what, if people don't soon realize what's going on, the inherent narcissism in social media is going to destroy the American Experiment. No one knows how to let things go anymore, and anyone who suggests to calm down is ridiculed or accused of being weak. The real weak-minded people in this country, the followers OF BOTH EXTREMES, are going to be the end of us all if we aren't careful.

There are entirely too many lines in the sand being drawn by entirely too many stupid people on both / all sides of every issue. People need to shut up and sit down. Maybe come help me horse some 192 lb metal shredder hammers around tomorrow instead of getting all hot and bothered about stupid crap that comes up on your phone. Sit back at the end of the day, have some lemonade, mellow out and enjoy life a little.

[fixer]

I find the protesting really superficial and sophomoric.

One or two highly uninformed millionaire ball players doing something obnoxious? No problem.

Now? What the hell are they even protesting? Getting picked on by Trump? Race issues? BLM crap?

I find the protesting a detestable fad. I did think the Steelers staying in the locker room at Soldier field of all places really offensive.

If this makes me a 'fake' patriot so be it...I'd rather be labeled such things than be agnostic about behavior that is intended to be offensive towards foundational elements of our country.

I've grown weary of pro sports and even college sports over the years. This latest stupidity has sealed it for me.

Bob Costas lecturing us about guns? Nope. Not having it.
Players, coaches, owners lecturing me about diversity and race issues? Nope. Not having it.
Players engaging in highly felonious behavior and treated like naughty toddlers? Nope. Not having it.
Sports are now an increasingly important platform for the left? Nope. Not having it.

We have allowed obscenely spoiled sports figures to tell us how to think and act. Their self-aggrandizement is bewildering and is just as offensive as their anti-American kneeling symbolism.

Its time to move on from the hyper-obsessed sports culture we have and start to look for things more healthy for leisure activities.

[RevolverRob]

Maybe - just maybe - Folks should stop focusing on the form of the protest - and think about what the protest stands for?

It's divisive? Because we have a divisive country. An exceptionally divisive president currently and a culture that is built on division.

Dissent is a cornerstone of democracy. Without questioning, we will end up with nothing but a nationalistic party line that has total cultural support for the authority of the government. We are all supremely aware that the 2nd Amendment exists, specifically to give the people the means to dissent by force if necessary. That constitution itself establish the means for dissent and the protection of it.

I, personally, have always felt the various vestiges of so-called patriotism are false idols, designed to compel individuals to believe a nationalistic line and not question. And this thread reinforces that for me. Folks will condemn individuals for protesting, call them disrespectful, but not give adequate weight, consideration, or listen to the who, what, when, or why. It's condemnation, because you folks have fallen for the false prophet. Does the anthem mean something? You bet. I know every single word and I stand for it, but I won't condemn those who don't, because I understand what it represents is remembering the individuals who died so that I, or my fellow citizens, have the right to protest. If they feel that one way to do that, peacefully, is to kneel during the anthem, then I support them.

[RevolverRob]

It's not the act of protesting that strikes me as disrespectful, or dissenting, but rather the stage in which they choose to protest. Injecting political statements and forcing them upon the thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of people who are paying to be entertained is complete bullshit. Period.

Sorry, I missed this early.

Sports are, always have been, and always will be political. And there is no reason that should change now, whether you pay for it or not.

Jackie Robinson
Muhammad Ali
Tommie Smith and John Carlos at the 1968 Olympics
USA Boycotting the 1980 Olympics in Russia
The list goes...

[StraitR]

Deleted. Senseless internet arguing.

[jc000]

Dissent is a cornerstone of democracy

No. No, it is not. Consensus is a cornerstone of democracy. The peoples' consensus is what (supposedly) drives democratic governments.

[blues]

Just called DirecTV and cancelled the current NFL Sunday Ticket subscription. They will refund and apply the credit to the next bill. :cool:

[Slick]

What are these people protesting? Is this still the "Hand's Up, Don't Shoot" thing?

[Joe in PNG]

Protest is easy- anyone can identify and talk about problems.
Taking one's own time and money to work towards fixing those problems? That's hard.

In the end, what we have is a bunch of millionaire entertainers that will go home to nice mansions in nice neighborhoods; people who will have done essentially nothing, but will feel good about it.

[blues]

What are these people protesting? Is this still the "Hand's Up, Don't Shoot" thing?

Nothing like protesting something that never happened. :rolleyes:

[SamAdams]

What are these people protesting? Is this still the "Hand's Up, Don't Shoot" thing?

Even more puzzling is the linked arms 'we're united' thing. United for what exactly ? 'Hands Up, Don't Shoot'? (That's what got this all started.) Shoving their political views in the public's face during sporting events ? Hatred of Trump ?

But you can bet some of the money men in the NFL are sweating right now & wondering how to get themselves out of it. How many people are canceling cable packages & swearing off the NFL ?
Big time Shitstorm for them.


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[RevolverRob]

No. No, it is not. Consensus is a cornerstone of democracy. The peoples' consensus is what (supposedly) drives democratic governments.

Yes, yes, it is.

Consensus and dissent are both, each, a cornerstone of democracy. Neither, is wholly independent of one another, nor can democracy exist without either being quasi-independent of one another.

That's the whole point of checks and balances. Dissent is a founding principle of our country. Arguably, the most important founding principle. But let me put it into your framework - there was a consensus of dissent when this country was formed. Both the consensus and the dissent were necessary to form our republic. I'm not claiming that consensus isn't important, it is very important, but so is dissent. You cannot have one without the other.

[UNK]

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[jc000]

double

[jc000]

That's the whole point of checks and balances. Dissent is a founding principle of our country. Arguably, the most important founding principle. But let me put it into your framework - there was a consensus of dissent when this country was formed. Both the consensus and the dissent were necessary to form our republic. I'm not claiming that consensus isn't important, it is very important, but so is dissent. You cannot have one without the other.

I think what you are meaning to say is that dissent is a characteristic of a free democracy (not all democracies are "free").

Our founding fathers overcame dissent to arrive at a consensus (even so, dissent has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths within the US). I don't see why dissent is necessary for consensus to exist. If we were all in a burning building, and the consensus was for us to get out, what value would dissent hold in this instance?

You could argue that dissent is a driving characteristic of nearly all sociopolitical change over the millennia. That doesn't make it good or bad. Please don't take this as directed at you, but I think the idea that "healthy dissent" is some core value of our country is basically leftist BS. Leftists, by virtue of their anti societal position, have values rooted in dissent. It is unsurprising that they would champion it as some grand democratic virtue.

[Joe in PNG]

Revolver Rob does have a good point. The freedom to dissent and the freedom to be indifferent are still essential freedoms.
We may not like it- but some Americans didn't exactly like what I said about the Obama admin. Too bad.

We protect the NFL player's right to kneel because in doing so, we protect our right to speak our own mind.

[blues]

Revolver Rob does have a good point. The freedom to dissent and the freedom to be indifferent are still essential freedoms.
We may not like it- but some Americans didn't exactly like what I said about the Obama admin. Too bad.

We protect the NFL player's right to kneel because in doing so, we protect our right to speak our own mind.

...and vote (our displeasure) with our wallets.

[jc000]

The freedom to dissent and the freedom to be indifferent are still essential freedoms.

Why? Why are they essential?

[SamAdams]

We protect the NFL player's right to kneel because in doing so, we protect our right to speak our own mind.

Actually the right of free speech is limited in the workplace. A 'social justice warrior' waitress who decided she would give a speech on 'the evil fascist pig capitalists' before handing out menus to patrons seated at her table, would soon find herself out of a job.

No one has stopped the NFL kneelers. No one has suggested laws against their actions. Such decisions are made by the league and the team owners (just like in the restaurant example). But actions have consequences. Patrons are also free to not give them their money. Those who come for a relaxing meal or entertaining game are free to walk out the door when they don't get that.

[David S.]

Nobody says you can't dissent with their dissent.

Cut your cable. Boycott the NFL. and Hollyweird. And all the rest of those ant-patriots.

Whether or not you agree with them. . .
Whether or not they're full of shit . . .

They're protesting peacefully!! It's just a bunch of sportsball players protesting during a national hymn. . . and, unlike BLM and Antifa, nobody's getting hurt.

[StraitR]

Revolver Rob does have a good point. The freedom to dissent and the freedom to be indifferent are still essential freedoms.
We may not like it- but some Americans didn't exactly like what I said about the Obama admin. Too bad.

We protect the NFL player's right to kneel because in doing so, we protect our right to speak our own mind.

I don't disagree. That said, freedom, specifically freedom of speech, is a two way street. One cannot state their opinion or position under the protection of "freedom" from one side of their mouth, then chastise opposing views out of the other side by saying "you're oppressing my freedoms by openly voicing your displeasure with my protest".

Just as one has the right, or freedom, to dissent, others have the right to tell them to go to hell. It's a two way street.

[Joe in PNG]

Think of it this way. During the years of 1993-2000, and 2008-2017, I had some pretty severe disagreements with how the country was run.
I also voiced my opinions of who was running the country, and how they were running the country. Frequently.

That is "dissent". I don't have to keep quiet because the king/lord/commissar won't like what I'm saying.

In this protest, I don't agree with the means, and a lot of the stated causes. Likewise, I don't agree with Illinois Nazis.
But I do support their right to free speech without government interference, because I want free speech without government interference.

And though I support their right to free speech, I also support our right to not have to listen, or to give them money willingly.
I also support the rights of their employers to take action according to the preexisting terms of their contracts.

[StraitR]

Think of it this way. During the years of 1993-2000, and 2008-2017, I had some pretty severe disagreements with how the country was run.
I also voiced my opinions of who was running the country, and how they were running the country. Frequently.

That is "dissent". I don't have to keep quiet because the king/lord/commissar won't like what I'm saying.

In this protest, I don't agree with the means, and a lot of the stated causes. Likewise, I don't agree with Illinois Nazis.
But I do support their right to free speech without government interference, because I want free speech without government interference.

And though I support their right to free speech, I also support our right to not have to listen, or to give them money willingly.
I also support the rights of their employers to take action according to the preexisting terms of their contracts.

Bingo. I couldn't agree more.

[Robinson]

Somehow the topic of this thread became "the right to dissent", but that isn't even the issue here. Everyone has the right to protest peacefully, everyone has the right to dissent. This is not a 1st Amendment issue at all.

The NFL players have a right to dissent by not standing for the National Anthem. The fact that I do not agree with their reasons for protesting doesn't change that. On the other hand, the NFL also has a right to require players to stand if it so desires -- like the NBA does. And I have a right to stop supporting the NFL by not watching their games.

The Anthem and the Stars and Stripes are not just a song and a flag. It would be silly to expect people to pay allegiance to a thing. They are direct and intentional symbols of the generations of Americans who have fought and died to give us the right to protest and dissent. And in my view the NFL players are shitting on them both.

[StraitR]

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters. - Benjamin Franklin

[HCM]

"An NFL player is arrested, on average, every seven days."

Shall We Have a Conversation About Arrest Statistics for Those Privileged NFL Players?

https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2017/09/25/shall-conversation-arrest-statistics-privileged-nfl-players/

[hufnagel]

I believe the owners, coaches and players are about to learn a very painful lesson.

I learned from my call to Directv this morning that I can only stop receiving the NFL season package before the season starts. It's already on my reminder calendar. We simply are not going to watch the NFL any longer.

Sure, the players and staff have every right to express their opinion. However, try this in your workplace and see how far it gets you. There're plenty of ways they can exercise those 1st Amendment rights on their own time. Individuals also have the right to vote with their feet, their dollars and their time.

I just ordered one of these from Amazon. One of the many pleasures of being retired is that I wear casual pants and t-shirts every day when weather permits.

20400

My understanding is that people that bitch loud and long enough are getting a full refund. If you're retired I'm sure you can do both of those adequately :D

[peterb]

Saw this today:

...This week brought a slate of fresh examples of ways in which users — some of them demonstrably Russian, others not — continue to try to use Facebook, Twitter and other platforms to jam a crowbar into existing American political divisions and wrench them further apart.

Oklahoma's Republican Sen. James Lankford cited the ongoing national debate over free speech and protest in the National Football League, which has set players who want to call attention to police brutality — and are demonstrating by kneeling during the national anthem — against President Trump and cultural conservatives.

"We watched, even this weekend, the Russians and their troll farms, their Internet folks, start hashtagging out 'take a knee' and also hashtagging out 'boycott the NFL,' " Lankford said at a hearing of the Senate Homeland Security Committee on Wednesday.

"They were taking both sides of the argument this past weekend and pushing them out from their troll farms as much as they could to just raise the noise level in America and make a big issue seem like an even bigger issue as they're trying to push divisiveness in the country," he said.

http://www.npr.org/2017/09/28/554024047/as-scrutiny-of-social-networks-grows-influence-attacks-continue-in-real-time

[walker2713]

They capitulated a day or so ago....and my NFL Season Ticket has been cancelled with a refund. All you have to do is tell them it's because of the NFL protests, and they take care of it.

[walker2713]

Saw this today:

...This week brought a slate of fresh examples of ways in which users — some of them demonstrably Russian, others not — continue to try to use Facebook, Twitter and other platforms to jam a crowbar into existing American political divisions and wrench them further apart.

Oklahoma's Republican Sen. James Lankford cited the ongoing national debate over free speech and protest in the National Football League, which has set players who want to call attention to police brutality — and are demonstrating by kneeling during the national anthem — against President Trump and cultural conservatives.

"We watched, even this weekend, the Russians and their troll farms, their Internet folks, start hashtagging out 'take a knee' and also hashtagging out 'boycott the NFL,' " Lankford said at a hearing of the Senate Homeland Security Committee on Wednesday.

"They were taking both sides of the argument this past weekend and pushing them out from their troll farms as much as they could to just raise the noise level in America and make a big issue seem like an even bigger issue as they're trying to push divisiveness in the country," he said.

http://www.npr.org/2017/09/28/554024047/as-scrutiny-of-social-networks-grows-influence-attacks-continue-in-real-time

So what? Divisiveness isn't the issue. The issue is that the NFL players, staff and league are using the flag and the national anthem as a prop to forward a left wing anti-LE, anti-MIL agenda. The 1st Amendment protects citizens from GOVERNMENT interference with their right to speak....the league and the teams have every right to enforce codes of conduct and speech within the sphere of the team.

All of this "unity," let's lock arms together, is just an attempt to deflect the issue away from disrespect to the flag, our anthem and our nations tradition. That's what this is about.

Oh, yes....I forgot, the flag is just a symbol.

Oh yeah! Some symbols are very powerful and full of meaning. To wit....

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[blues]

My understanding is that people that bitch loud and long enough are getting a full refund. If you're retired I'm sure you can do both of those adequately :D

I resemble that remark. (But you're on my list...and get the fuck off my lawn!)

[hufnagel]

Will there be cake when you call in that list?

[orionz06]

So what? Divisiveness isn't the issue. The issue is that the NFL players, staff and league are using the flag and the national anthem as a prop to forward a left wing anti-LE, anti-MIL agenda. The 1st Amendment protects citizens from GOVERNMENT interference with their right to speak....the league and the teams have every right to enforce codes of conduct and speech within the sphere of the team.

All of this "unity," let's lock arms together, is just an attempt to deflect the issue away from disrespect to the flag, our anthem and our nations tradition. That's what this is about.

Oh, yes....I forgot, the flag is just a symbol.

Oh yeah! Some symbols are very powerful and full of meaning. To wit....

20472

Should we force them to stand?

[walker2713]

Should we force them to stand?

Of course not.....I can't imagine that we have the power to do that if the we wanted to.

The players are the ones who've politicized this issue by refusing to follow NFL league standards and show the respect the flag and the anthem deserve.

They are free to use those symbols to push their left wing agenda....and I'm free to not watch, and not care about the

[orionz06]

Of course not.....I can't imagine that we have the power to do that if the we wanted to.

The players are the ones who've politicized this issue by refusing to follow NFL league standards and show the respect the flag and the anthem deserve.

They are free to use those symbols to push their left wing agenda....and I'm free to not watch, and not care about the

Right, but the more this drags out the more and more it seems like one side won't be happy until all of the players do exactly as they wish.

[NEPAKevin]

My understanding is that there are a good number of NFL players who give significantly of their time and money to try to give back to their communities and often get little recognition their good works. That the main stream media chooses to ignore these positive actions instead giving undue attention to the "kneeling thing" which for all intents and purposes either preaches to the choir or the deaf, seems typically unhelpful and self serving.

[blues]

Will there be cake when you call in that list?

You betcha...

[Joe in PNG]

My understanding is that there are a good number of NFL players who give significantly of their time and money to try to give back to their communities and often get little recognition their good works. That the main stream media chooses to ignore these positive actions instead giving undue attention to the "kneeling thing" which for all intents and purposes either preaches to the choir or the deaf, seems typically unhelpful and self serving.

A spots entertainer getting arrested for cocaine or wife-beating gets far, far more attention than one spending his own time and money to work towards making things better.
We need to make those guys famous.

[StraitR]

Edited: Meh, time to move on.

[orionz06]

Edited: Meh, time to move on.

Prior to the edit we agree on most accounts but if you go and ask around I suspect you'll get a nearly unanimous yes to forcing people to stand for the anthem.

[StraitR]

Prior to the edit we agree on most accounts but if you go and ask around I suspect you'll get a nearly unanimous yes to forcing people to stand for the anthem.

Which is equally ridiculous, IMO, but I don't doubt it one bit. Everyone wants to impose their will on others, and some are willing to use force. Preventing a violent version of that from happening to us or our families is why most are here on PF.

[RoyGBiv]

Prior to the edit we agree on most accounts but if you go and ask around I suspect you'll get a nearly unanimous yes to forcing people to stand for the anthem.

As an individual, I support your right to protest in whatever peaceful way you choose. But as a team owner, responsible for the livelihood of several hundred employees and a billion dollar asset..... No way I'm going to let you endanger my brand, my ability to to pay your salary, by bringing your political opinions onto the field and shoving them down the throats of fans and sponsors.

There should certainly NOT be a law requiring respect for the flag/anthem. But you also do not have a right to decide what my brand does or does not stand for. You don't like it? I'll be happy to let you out of your contract, as long as the NFL agrees to ban you.

[orionz06]

Which is equally ridiculous, IMO, but I don't doubt it one bit. Everyone wants to impose their will on others, and some are willing to use force. Preventing a violent version of that from happening to us or our families is why most are here on PF.


As an individual, I support your right to protest in whatever peaceful way you choose. But as a team owner, responsible for the livelihood of several hundred employees and a billion dollar asset..... No way I'm going to let you endanger my brand, my ability to to pay your salary, by bringing your political opinions onto the field and shoving them down the throats of fans and sponsors.

There should certainly NOT be a law requiring respect for the flag/anthem. But you also do not have a right to decide what my brand does or does not stand for. You don't like it? I'll be happy to let you out of your contract, as long as the NFL agrees to ban you.

Curious, if the NFL pulls all the teams off the field and effectively removes the ability for the players to do anything does that upset you?

[RoyGBiv]

Curious, if the NFL pulls all the teams off the field and effectively removes the ability for the players to do anything does that upset you?
No.

The NFL has a valuable brand to maintain. They own the brand and can allow/disallow employees to behave per guidelines when employees are on the clock.
Subject, of course, to limits that may/not be in force from contracts the NFL and or the teams have signed with said employees.

It's sad that Aaron Rogers is nearly alone in trying to apply some leadership towards turning this into something other than a zero-sum pissing contest. (the whole linking arms thing is too late... trying to have their cake and eat it, at this point)

[StraitR]

Curious, if the NFL pulls all the teams off the field and effectively removes the ability for the players to do anything does that upset you?

I don't have an opinion, because I stopped watching the NFL a few years ago, so I won't be subjected to it. I myself, dislike the kneeling because I think the meaning is misdirected, but I support their individual right to choose. All I ask of others with an opposing view, is to respect my right to disagree.

The decision by NFL teams to get involved in an issue with political undertones was a poor one, which to me seems obvious. They will undoubtably feel the financial pinch for doing so by the hand of those who fundamentally disagree, as they should IMO. One person or organization makes their choice to send a message, other persons and organizations receive it and make their own choice, which sends a response. Each have their right to choose, and both must live with the repercussions of their actions.

What would be tragic, is if players stood when they wanted to kneel, or kneeled when they wanted to stand. Moral courage is difficult, and seemingly scarce, in this age of massive instantaneous information exchange via social media. I give you Alejandro Villanueva as an example of moral courage.

If everyone would respect the rights and opinions of others, this would all simply play out as it should in a free democracy. But as we discussed above, too many people want to force their will upon others.

[orionz06]

No.

The NFL has a valuable brand to maintain. They own the brand and can allow/disallow employees to behave per guidelines when employees are on the clock.
Subject, of course, to limits that may/not be in force from contracts the NFL and or the teams have signed with said employees.

It's sad that Aaron Rogers is nearly alone in trying to apply some leadership towards turning this into something other than a zero-sum pissing contest. (the whole linking arms thing is too late... trying to have their cake and eat it, at this point)

I agree, I'd not care about the players being on the field. Their approach to the brand is interesting as they could have very easily cut this shit last year and just stopped showing people who were using it as an avenue to protest. Where I get stuck is it seems that the NFL is using the flag and anthem to show how patriotic they are. Be an American, buy a jersey! People eat that shit up so hard, that's why so many are so torqued and are responding irrationally. The linking arms thing.... Mixed. They're a team and they've gotta be on the same page. It's certainly a compromise but if the alternative is someone being an asshole and trying to get attention or the whole team doing the same thing, in the least distracting manner, then I guess it could be worse.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Perhaps the solution is to just cut to commercials during the Anthem. I heard one sportscaster say cynically that this was standard practice until controversy arose.

From the past: During the Viet Nam war protests a prominent antiwar figure (I forget who) was interviewed wearing an American Flag shirt. There was outrage from the usual folks. How can you wear the flag as a shirt. However, in the next couple of days - Roy Rogers wore the same shirt while singing with Dale on a TV show. Controversy died down. There was also a well known picture of a beautiful young woman wearing a bikini made of flag components. There was controversy whether this should have been removed.

My point - is that - we have greater problems. Let the free market take care of the NFL and player, coach actions. That can decide their policies. The president should spend his time on the real issues.

Last, at the local IDPA matches, we say the Pledge. One day, someone forget to bring the small flag. What to do? Well, I had chosen to wear a T-shirt with the flag on it. So I stood there in front of all like Captain America while folks said the Pledge towards me. I also wore that shirt to the department official picture taking one year. One nasty comment from a colleague (not in the department). Too bad. I suppose the Never Forget - Star of David RKBA picture in my office might have scared someone.

[RJ]

Perhaps the solution is to just cut to commercials during the Anthem. I heard one sportscaster say cynically that this was standard practice until controversy arose.



Actually I kinda think it'd be neat if one of the Anthem Singers would step up to the mic, let the players kneel, and then recite the Lord's Prayer.

Boom. Mic drop moment. [emoji41]

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Sorry, that wouldn't be neat. Posturing religion of one subgroup without sincerity does no one any good. Just play feetball and cut the crap.

[NEPAKevin]

My point - is that - we have greater problems. Let the free market take care of the NFL and player, coach actions. That can decide their policies. The president should spend his time on the real issues.

.

I have my own conspiracy theory about the "outrageous POTUS Tweets." Probably complete BS, but my observation is that since the inauguration, it seems that after every twitter storm, there is an announcement covered by fox news and the various conservative and libertarian news sources and often ignored by the rest of the letter news stations, that the administration or congress has enacted some law, executive order or policy change that coincides with the MAGA agenda (example: bipartisan support of the Veteran's Health Administration Reform Act.). My non-scientific wild ass conspiracy theory is that the POTUS tweets are not the insane ramblings of a mad man but rather a diversion or smoke screen to allow the competent people in the background get things done. Prediction for the current diversion is either tax reform or dealing with the NorK situation. Crazy talk, but it makes my tin foil hat sit better.

[blues]

I have my own conspiracy theory about the "outrageous POTUS Tweets." Probably complete BS, but my observation is that since the inauguration, it seems that after every twitter storm, there is an announcement covered by fox news and the various conservative and libertarian news sources and often ignored by the rest of the letter news stations, that the administration or congress has enacted some law, executive order or policy change that coincides with the MAGA agenda (example: bipartisan support of the Veteran's Health Administration Reform Act.). My non-scientific wild ass conspiracy theory is that the POTUS tweets are not the insane ramblings of a mad man but rather a diversion or smoke screen to allow the competent people in the background get things done. Prediction for the current diversion is either tax reform or dealing with the NorK situation. Crazy talk, but it makes my tin foil hat sit better.

Funny, I was thinking of something along the same lines earlier this week.

I was postulating that since it seems so unusual and unlikely for someone holding the office of president to intentionally be so divisive...that really what Trump is doing is uniting the country by using himself as the foil. Could he be the messiah? :rolleyes:

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You spelled that incorrectly, it is:

meshuganah


Meshuganah, sometimes spelled meshugeneh, is defined as a strange, eccentric or irresponsible person.

---

All kinds of nice Jewish words out there. :rolleyes:

Is this an ad hominem aluminum foil hat comment?

[blues]

You spelled that incorrectly, it is:

meshuganah


Meshuganah, sometimes spelled meshugeneh, is defined as a strange, eccentric or irresponsible person.

---

All kinds of nice Jewish words out there. :rolleyes:

Is this an ad hominem aluminum foil hat comment?

I'm sorry, "meshuganah" seems a bit too benign and too much of an understatement and mischaracterization. But that's just me...;)

[RJ]

Sorry, that wouldn't be neat. Posturing religion of one subgroup without sincerity does no one any good. Just play feetball and cut the crap.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170929/7630af3f6bf5feffd34aa54bab8b5687.jpg

[Olim9]

I stopped giving a shit about the NFL when they didn't want to air a Daniel Defense ad because they wanted to remain "neutral" but then aired an anti-gun Bloomberg ad in the same Superbowl. IMO, team sports are boring and grossly over rated anyways. They can kick rocks for all I care.

[Joe in PNG]

If one has read "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", ponder what the book says about the role of the President of the Galaxy- basically drawing attention away from power.
Trump acting outrageous so others can get things done... not so outlandish.

[blues]

If one has read "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", ponder what the book says about the role of the President of the Galaxy- basically drawing attention away from power.
Trump acting outrageous so others can get things done... not so outlandish.

https://memegenerator.net/img/images/600x600/13606271/the-great-and-powerful-oz.jpg

[Joe in PNG]

I've been pondering the meaning of sitting/standing/kneeling, and boiled it down the following basics:
Superiors stay seated in the presence of inferiors.
Equals rise in mutual respect for equals.
Inferiors kneel to superiors.

In the case of the NFL protest, the players are not standing up as befits full citizens. Neither are they just sitting down as if indifferent to the National Anthem.
Instead, they are doing an action which is still respectful, yet still carries a message- "We should be treated as free and equal citizens of this nation, but find ourselves instead treated as inferiors."

Just an observation.

[blues]

Instead, they are doing an action which is still respectful, yet still carries a message- "We should be treated as free and equal citizens of this nation, but find ourselves instead treated as inferiors."

Just an observation.

Despite the fact that I believe it is the wrong venue...I only wish that the eloquence of your quoted remarks above was what was truly carried in the hearts of those participating.

Instead, I hear justifications based upon false assertions...(which is not in any way meant to deny that there are injustices which need addressing).

If people want to enjoy the protections of the law, they should also respect the law and the verdicts rendered in good faith via the judicial system.

I didn't see that respect when Kaepernick walked out on the field with his "cops as pigs" socks...and the movement he engendered has never been willing to accept verdicts which weren't consistent with their narrative, regardless of what eyewitness statements and the facts have brought to light.

I'm not against the conversation. I'm against the venue and I'm skeptical of the messengers.

[Joe in PNG]

Despite the fact that I believe it is the wrong venue...I only wish that the eloquence of your quoted remarks above was what was truly carried in the hearts of those participating.

Instead, I hear justifications based upon false assertions...(which is not in any way meant to deny that there are injustices which need addressing).

If people want to enjoy the protections of the law, they should also respect the law and the verdicts rendered in good faith via the judicial system.

I didn't see that respect when Kaepernick walked out on the field with his "cops as pigs" socks...and the movement he engendered has never been willing to accept verdicts which weren't consistent with their narrative, regardless of what eyewitness statements and the facts have brought to light.

I'm not against the conversation. I'm against the venue and I'm skeptical of the messengers.

I'm pretty sure there's an element "follow the leader" going on, and that most of the guys kneeling have put no though at all towards the deeper meanings.
It's one of those things that hit me while thinking "why stand?" or "why kneel?".
For instance, during a military funeral, why is the flag presented to the next of kin from a kneeling position? It's a sign of serious respect- we're not worthy of this sacrifice.

The reasoning may be poor, but the kneeling position is not in itself disrespectful. Sitting down, or turning one's back would be a sign of deliberate disrespect.

[willie]

Aren't most of the messengers mentioned in post #115 concussed from having been hit in the head repeatedly? Hence, if true, then they have brain damage. And that must be the reason why so many of the same citizens frequently wake up one morning and discover that they are broke. Hell, let'em kneel if they prefer. They can't help it anyway. I heard that bookies may be fretting because they fear fewer people might bet on NFL games.