Thread Split: Heavy Reece Concept (7.62 gas gun)

[ASH556]

I posted most of this in the Geissele SASS thread, but really wanted to develop this idea further and not derail that thread. Discuss:

I've owned a couple and handled/shot several more other 7.62 gas guns and I just don't like them. I haven't spent time with a KAC EMC/ECC, but everything else from Smith to LMT to DPMS to Colt just wasn't quite right. I think part of it may be the mission: too many guys think .308 must equal sniper rifle so they overglass and over barrel it. I'd like to play with a 14.5 with a medcon barrel. A 1-4 or 1-6 (or heck, maybe even just a TA11), and I think you'd have a pretty good heavy Recce. That's really the concept I want but soooo much money and inconsistencies in parts has me sticking with my 16" 700.

[NH Shooter]

I think part of it may be the mission: too many guys think .308 must equal sniper rifle so they overglass and over barrel it.

What do you see as the advantage of the "7.62 Heavy RECCE" concept described vs. a 5.56 version? Longer range? Better terminal performance? Would any gain be worth the extra size and weight?

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts...

[ASH556]

What do you see as the advantage of the "7.62 Heavy RECCE" concept described vs. a 5.56 version? Longer range? Better terminal performance? Would any gain be worth the extra size and weight?

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts...

My thoughts are more centered around better terminal performance, especially through barriers and/or vehicle incapacitation. It may be falsehood though. Just my initial thought.

[NH Shooter]

My thoughts are more centered around better terminal performance, especially through barriers and/or vehicle incapacitation. It may be falsehood though. Just my initial thought.

With ammo like this that could be true;

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/speer-gold-dot-le-duty-308-winchester-ammo-168-grain-sp-24458-p-59065.aspx

[HCM]

My thoughts are more centered around better terminal performance, especially through barriers and/or vehicle incapacitation. It may be falsehood though. Just my initial thought.

These capabilities are generally ammo dependent. Bonded 5.56 or AP 5.56 will perform better that M80 ball in 7.62 in those instances.

Vehicle incapacitation is normally accomplished by hitting hoses etc with multiple shots rather than cracking an engine block. More shots in 5.56 = greater chance of vehile incapacitation.

[Chance]

I'm just parroting information, but it seems like a .308 gas gun can make a precision rifle if the right people work on it.

20244

[ASH556]

With ammo like this that could be true;

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/speer-gold-dot-le-duty-308-winchester-ammo-168-grain-sp-24458-p-59065.aspx


These capabilities are generally ammo dependent. Bonded 5.56 or AP 5.56 will perform better that M80 ball in 7.62 in those instances.

Vehicle incapacitation is normally accomplished by hitting hoses etc with multiple shots rather than cracking an engine block. More shots in 5.56 = greater chance of vehile incapacitation.

I currently load 55gr 5.56 and 64gr .223 Gold Dot in my AR's, so I would do the same in 7.62 (I shoot 150gr Fusion, same bullet in my 700.)

[DamonL]

If you are building a gun to test a concept it is ok buy parts and assemble one. Aeroprecision upper and lower, lower parts kit, stock kit, barrel, etc. Maybe not duty grade, but makes it affordable and you can buy pieces to your concept spec over time.

[El Cid]

I posted most of this in the Geissele SASS thread, but really wanted to develop this idea further and not derail that thread. Discuss:

I've owned a couple and handled/shot several more other 7.62 gas guns and I just don't like them. I haven't spent time with a KAC EMC/ECC, but everything else from Smith to LMT to DPMS to Colt just wasn't quite right. I think part of it may be the mission: too many guys think .308 must equal sniper rifle so they overglass and over barrel it. I'd like to play with a 14.5 with a medcon barrel. A 1-4 or 1-6 (or heck, maybe even just a TA11), and I think you'd have a pretty good heavy Recce. That's really the concept I want but soooo much money and inconsistencies in parts has me sticking with my 16" 700.

I love my .308 gas gun with a 1-6. Handy for anything from contact to 600. Light enough to carry all day.

https://i.imgur.com/OUtPzl9_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

[Tokarev]

The DPMS GII format is my current favorite for the AR10-style. It is lighter and handier (more like an AR15 with a big mag well) than the legacy 308 pattern.

I would love to see more gun makers building on the GII chassis and/or aftermarket companies making barrels and such.

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[NH Shooter]

I currently load 55gr 5.56 and 64gr .223 Gold Dot in my AR's, so I would do the same in 7.62 (I shoot 150gr Fusion, same bullet in my 700.)

I am using the 75 grain LE Gold Dot load in my BCM 16" ELW BFH carbine, and it holds near MOA precision at 100 yards. Seems like everyone has caught on to this load as it is now difficult to find in stock.

I am going to experiment with the 165 grain Fusion load in my precision bolt rifle (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26330-My-Rem-700-SPS-Tac-Pit). I suspect for the intended use and range (300 yards and under), it should perform admirably as per Doc's research (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4345-LE-308-Loads).

[PearTree]

http://www.megaarms.com/sf-maten/
Seems like this fits a lot of your criteria if they ever get around to releasing it. At 7.2 pounds unloaded that would be very handy.

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[schüler]

ASH, I'm guessing the SCAR-H is in the too-pricey category. A light FAL? They're a bit rough on optics tho.

[Nocturnalis Discipulo]

The DD5V1 seems like it could work. It has a 16" barrel, and weighs 8.3 pounds. I have not heard too much about the accuracy or reliability though.

https://danieldefense.com/firearms/caliber/7-62-x-51mm/daniel-defense-dd5v1-m-lok.html

[ASH556]

ASH, I'm guessing the SCAR-H is in the too-pricey category. A light FAL? They're a bit rough on optics tho.

Pricey and not just the gun but mags etc. An FAL could be an option but nowadays it seems AR's in .308 are close in price and better ergos.


The DD5V1 seems like it could work. It has a 16" barrel, and weighs 8.3 pounds. I have not heard too much about the accuracy or reliability though.

https://danieldefense.com/firearms/caliber/7-62-x-51mm/daniel-defense-dd5v1-m-lok.html

I've read some reliability issues, but have no firsthand experience other than playing with one in a shop.

[smithjd]

The DD5V1 seems like it could work. It has a 16" barrel, and weighs 8.3 pounds. I have not heard too much about the accuracy or reliability though.

https://danieldefense.com/firearms/caliber/7-62-x-51mm/daniel-defense-dd5v1-m-lok.html

I just shot next to one for the last two days and saw it go through about 300 rounds with only operator error. It looked to be quite accurate with FGMM. I've found DD barrels to be quite accurate; that is, about MOA or better.

I still like my SCAR better.

[DamonL]

ASH556 Have you looked at the Larue Predatar?

[Suvorov]

I love my .308 gas gun with a 1-6. Handy for anything from contact to 600. Light enough to carry all day.

https://i.imgur.com/OUtPzl9_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

What rifle is that?

What is the general feeling here as far as ideal (or at least tolerable) weight in a 7.62 rifle?

There was a similar thread on 7.62 guns last year which I led to me purchasing a PWS MK216. The decision was a little bit compressed due to the laws being passed in Kalifornia and my inaccurate prediction of the 2016 elections. All in all it's performed well but has had some problems that I just have not had with quality 5.56 guns. I'm trying to keep the whole rifle under 10lbs and am currently mounting a Aimpoint PRO which more than meets my needs here in Kalifornia. I would like to put some 1-6X glass on it but I'm not sure that the added weight and cost will be worth it.

As a middle aged man who has fallen off the PT wagon, it seems to me that the weight of most 7.62 semi-auto rifles (other than the SCAR) are their biggest drawback as anything more than a range toy.

[ASH556]

ASH556 Have you looked at the Larue Predatar?

Yes, it seems to be a decent choice, although I'm not a huge fan of the proprietary handguard/barrel interface. Same thing with the DD 5

[Suvorov]

Yes, it seems to be a decent choice, although I'm not a huge fan of the proprietary handguard/barrel interface. Same thing with the DD 5

It seems that proprietary is the name of the game when it comes to 7.62ARs. In lack of a true "pattern" I'm OK with proprietary as long as it adds to functionality of the rifle.

[DocGKR]

"What is the general feeling here as far as ideal (or at least tolerable) weight in a 7.62 rifle?"

Weight is weight, irrespective of caliber. So the ideal (or at least tolerable) weight of a 7.62 mm rifle is no different than that of a 5.56 mm rifle....

[MSparks909]

Have a DD5V1 set up as a Recce/DMR rifle. Harris bipod on a DD mount, Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x. Shoots MOA or just short of it with good quality ammo. I think the gas port is sized a little generously...might look into adding an adjustable GB as I do plan on running a suppressor eventually. Stout recoil with heavy 168-175gr. match ammo. Had some primer cratering with Hornady Superformance...no more of that stuff.

Haven't shot a lot of 147-150gr. FMJ .308 loads out of it and I don't really plan to. For what I use it for I'm happy.

[Failure2Stop]

I do some .308 stuff.

Here's my advice: unless you have a clear use for the gun, don't do it. They are all costly, and the better ones even more so. The point of diminishing returns hits very fast, and a thousand dollars of investment is very easily required for incremental gain at the levels above hobbyist grade. That said, nothing wrong with being a hobbyist, but the differences between tiers gets crystallized pretty fast.
They aren't just big 5.56 guns, they are a life choice and a bit of a commitment.
People vastly over-state the precision potential of their gasser .308s. 1.2 MOA average is on the low side from what I have seen. Expect 1.5-2 MOA with the stuff made to blow big holes in soft stuff.
From a shooting perspective, I don't recommend going below 8.5lbs naked. They tend to get a little mobile when shooting fast if too light. Unless the main job is to not shoot all that much, in which case I'd recommend saving a bunch of money or gaining a lot of performance by going to a bolt gun.

[ASH556]

I do some .308 stuff.

Here's my advice: unless you have a clear use for the gun, don't do it. They are all costly, and the better ones even more so. The point of diminishing returns hits very fast, and a thousand dollars of investment is very easily required for incremental gain at the levels above hobbyist grade. That said, nothing wrong with being a hobbyist, but the differences between tiers gets crystallized pretty fast.
They aren't just big 5.56 guns, they are a life choice and a bit of a commitment.
People vastly over-state the precision potential of their gasser .308s. 1.2 MOA average is on the low side from what I have seen. Expect 1.5-2 MOA with the stuff made to blow big holes in soft stuff.
From a shooting perspective, I don't recommend going below 8.5lbs naked. They tend to get a little mobile when shooting fast if too light. Unless the main job is to not shoot all that much, in which case I'd recommend saving a bunch of money or gaining a lot of performance by going to a bolt gun.

Thanks so much, Jack! Your experience and insight are invaluable and this post reaffirms my thought process behind the 16" .308 bolt gun I sold my M&P10 to build.

[El Cid]

What rifle is that?

What is the general feeling here as far as ideal (or at least tolerable) weight in a 7.62 rifle?

There was a similar thread on 7.62 guns last year which I led to me purchasing a PWS MK216. The decision was a little bit compressed due to the laws being passed in Kalifornia and my inaccurate prediction of the 2016 elections. All in all it's performed well but has had some problems that I just have not had with quality 5.56 guns. I'm trying to keep the whole rifle under 10lbs and am currently mounting a Aimpoint PRO which more than meets my needs here in Kalifornia. I would like to put some 1-6X glass on it but I'm not sure that the added weight and cost will be worth it.

As a middle aged man who has fallen off the PT wagon, it seems to me that the weight of most 7.62 semi-auto rifles (other than the SCAR) are their biggest drawback as anything more than a range toy.

It's a LaRue PredatAR in 7.62. I'm not the PT stud I used to be but it isn't too heavy for me (never weighed it). The optic is on the lighter side of LPV's.

As for true utility... unless a rifle is used to hunt (4 legged or 2 legged critters), isn't it just a range toy? I won't reach for a .308 for home defense as a first choice. But I always wanted a .308 and I have very little love to give bolt action rifles.

The only complaint I have is that I couldn't get it to run with my Silencerco Omega. To be fair, LaRue gave me several suggestions to help and offered to look at it in person. They did say they can only guarantee their rifles to work with their Tranquilo can or Surefire cans.

[DamonL]

I had an early SR25 with the Remington 5R barrel and carbon fiber fore end. It ran pretty good and it was a consistent 1.25 to 1.5 inch rifle. I used it in multiple precision rifle classes and learned it's advantage was not having to reload when bolt guns needed reloading. So if you need to shoot a lot of point targets fast, it's awesome. I sold it because at the time I was chasing accuracy.

Failure2Stop. So do you think the Intermediate Combat Rifle is not a good idea or doesn't make sense with a .308 AR10?

[call_me_ski]

I really can't get behind the idea of a .308 class rifle being general issue again. I do believe that they have a place but a lot of sacrifices are made when moving to the larger guns when evaluating qualities that are preferable for a general issue combat rifle. For the time being SOCOM has no plans to follow the Army down their latest wormhole.

This discussion got me thinking about what would be an improvement without too much sacrifice. Federal's new wonder cartridge definitely looks interesting. They took 6.8 brass and necked it down to .22 bullet and called it the .224 Valkyrie. If you are thinking that it sounds like 22 nosler you are right, but it is a good cartridge in all the ways that 22 Nosler is not. 22 Nosler chased case capacity to the detriment of everything else. Federal made smart choices, loaded with long, heavy for caliber, high BC bullets and ditched the rebated rim.

They formally announced it today but I am eagerly watching to see how this new cartridge preforms. Federal claims it is supersonic to 1300yds with 90gr SMK. It does that with less drop and drift than 6.5 creedmoor to a 1000. All that from a round that easily fits inside of an AR15 magazine well and half the recoil energy of the creedmore. This might be a way to get the Army their overmatch(this tag phrase is quickly becoming the new "stopping power", and I cringe a little more every time I hear it) without giving up too much handiness or ammo due to increased weight. The round also has better sectional density compared to 5.56 so it will help with penetrating armor.

[Failure2Stop]

So do you think the Intermediate Combat Rifle is not a good idea or doesn't make sense with a .308 AR10?

Despite my dour post, I am actually a big .308 gas gun fan. I love the way it smacks steel out to 800 meters, drops hogs, and at matches makes 5.56 shooters green with envy when a decent .308 shooter beats them at run-n-gun. There are really solid ammunition choices for every application, and while recoil is a factor, my 8 year old can shoot my suppressed APC and keep asking for more.

All of that said, the average line unit kid doesn't receive 1/10th of the instruction that my 8 year old has, and that's only the first problem with widespread use of 7.62. Lots of folks are reading these articles, but failing to see the trees for the forest (yes, that is intentionally reversed). The problem, as far as the program is concerned, is less about shooting and more about piercing armor. The problem, as far as reality is concerned, is that it isn't focused enough on shooting, therefore making armor penetration less relevant. I don't know where the fallacy came from, but 16" 7.62 gas guns are not easier to shoot than 20" gas guns, and 20" gas guns are not easy to shoot well. It takes work, practice, determination, and experience to get to a good place with them.

The other significant problem is carrying ammunition. 7.62 magazines are bulkier, heavier, and less friendly to the average hand than 5.56. Average loadout for 5.56 is 210 rounds, spread over 7 magazines, with one in the gun and six on body. The largest practical .308 magazine is the Magpul 25 rounder, and even with them, you're going to need to cut to 200 rounds in 8 magazines to be anywhere near realistic on-body magazine space. This is a pretty involved topic, and rather than typing out a novel, I'm just going to skip ahead to weight. Those 200 rounds of 7.62 are going to weigh over 10.5 lbs, as opposed to 210 rounds of 5.56 at 4.2-5.9 lbs. Yeah, we can get into lightweight alternate case material, but a project that takes two years to get the weight of the ammunition alone down to where it's not excessive is hard to make the hinge point for an interim program.

That said, there is definitely a place for a 7.62 gun, but it's a specialist/niche material solution that depends on the skill and strength of the individual user to show clear advantage.

[DamonL]

I know the M16 replaced the M14 for a reason. :)

As a firearms enthusiast I know I would like to play with a 7.62 AR again.

[JodyH]

My version:
H&K MR762 A1 16"
CIM Tactical rail
H&K slim buttstock
Magpul grip
Geissele trigger
Elcan Spectre DR 1.5x/6x optic

20932

[MSparks909]

My version:
H&K MR762 A1 16"
CIM Tactical rail
H&K slim buttstock
Magpul grip
Geissele trigger
Elcan Spectre DR 1.5x/6x optic

20932

Well done, sir.

[Little Creek]

The DD5V1 seems like it could work. It has a 16" barrel, and weighs 8.3 pounds. I have not heard too much about the accuracy or reliability though.

https://danieldefense.com/firearms/caliber/7-62-x-51mm/daniel-defense-dd5v1-m-lok.html

I have one of these with a NF SHV 4-14 F1 scope. I like it.

[pastaslinger]

Thoughts on the Seekins SP10 and Larue kit for 308?

[Crow Hunter]

I love my .308 gas gun with a 1-6. Handy for anything from contact to 600. Light enough to carry all day.

https://i.imgur.com/OUtPzl9_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Necropost :)

I have a similar bang stick that I got for a steal a while back. It has been sitting in my safe for several years with just Troy BUIS. It really seems like a shame to keep such an accurate rifle without optics. (The Larue test target was .27", IIRC)

So I have been thinking about getting an optic for it but being a skinny middle aged dude and unlikely to get any stronger or younger I want to keep it light, if possible.

I have toyed with the idea of a LPV but for weight purposes have also looked at a TA33 or maybe even an Aimpoint T2 and a twist off magnifier.

My use would just be range fun and I might take it deer hunting if I ever get back into doing that.

What do you use yours for and which optic do you have on there?

[El Cid]

Necropost :)

I have a similar bang stick that I got for a steal a while back. It has been sitting in my safe for several years with just Troy BUIS. It really seems like a shame to keep such an accurate rifle without optics. (The Larue test target was .27", IIRC)

So I have been thinking about getting an optic for it but being a skinny middle aged dude and unlikely to get any stronger or younger I want to keep it light, if possible.

I have toyed with the idea of a LPV but for weight purposes have also looked at a TA33 or maybe even an Aimpoint T2 and a twist off magnifier.

My use would just be range fun and I might take it deer hunting if I ever get back into doing that.

What do you use yours for and which optic do you have on there?

The rifle has no purpose other than challenging myself to bang steel at distance. I'd use it for work if I was permitted but we are more likely to see Sen Feinstein vote for Constitutional Carry.

I went with a LPV because I wanted the ability to use it up close at 1x. My requirements were true 1x and daytime bright illumination. Back when I got this the Razor HD wasn't out. The Schmidt & Bender Short Dot was a 1.1x and only went to 4x. My choice was the Swarovski Z6i 1-6 and I've been super pleased. It's light for its size and the glass is impressive. It has a mil dot tree for ranging and I've no worries about it failing. It's only downside is the price.

[Failure2Stop]

22433

[JM Campbell]

22433

Ohhhh a nightforce 1-8 in the wild, so jelly.

Sweet blaster even though the upper/lower don’t match ;)


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[Failure2Stop]

Sweet blaster even though the upper/lower don’t match ;)


Lower matches my hat and PEQ, fight me.

:D

[JM Campbell]

Lower matches my hat and PEQ, fight me.

:D

Nope, I hear you fight dirty. ;)

Nice blaster, I should have never sold my old sr25 from 1996. Still regret that one.


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[El Cid]

Anyone tried these? I ordered a couple to see how they do.

https://dsgarms.com/dah-ma-308-20-blk

[Crow Hunter]

Anyone tried these? I ordered a couple to see how they do.

https://dsgarms.com/dah-ma-308-20-blk

Interesting. Thanks for posting this.

I would like to know about this too. I might just get a couple myself just to try.

For some reason I have a strange affection for metal mags, probably because I am old. :o

While I like and own some PMAGS I would love to have metal mags instead.