Gen4 19 - Part Deux

[JV_]

Gen4 vs JV - Round 2!

I picked up a Gen4 19 today. It has the new RSA, ejector, . connector, and has fired case date of 10/20.

I swapped the following:

. connector with a -
Slide Plate w/ Gadget
tapered trigger for flat faced trigger (still a gen4 trigger)
slide release for an extended slide release

I'll order some sights before Monday, I'm just not sure what mfr/type. I'm considering some Sevigny Carry (2 dot) sights or the Ameriglo Hack.

[LOKNLOD]

Gen4 vs JV - Round 2!

I picked up a Gen4 19 today. It has the new RSA, ejector, . connector, and has fired case date of 10/20.

I swapped the following:

. connector with a -
Slide Plate w/ Gadget
tapered trigger for flat faced trigger (still a gen4 trigger)
slide release for an extended slide release

I'll order some sights before Monday, I'm just not sure what mfr/type. I'm considering some Sevigny Carry (2 dot) sights or the Ameriglo Hack.

JV,
IIRC you had picked up a Gen 3 19 recently for your primary pistol - is there a major reason for wanting to try out the Gen 4 again? Just curious.

[JV_]

IIRC you had picked up a Gen 3 19 recently for your primary pistol When my problematic Gen4 came back from Glock, the shop that I bought it from - and the shop that sent it back on their dime, did an even trade on the repaired gun for the NIB Gen3.


is there a major reason for wanting to try out the Gen 4 again? Just curious.It's a bunch of reasons, the biggest is probably money burning a hole in my pocket. Gen3s are boring, Gen4s ... not so much.

The secondary reasons are that I shot the Gen4 better than my Gen3. I have small hands and the big mag release and reduced backstrap are really noticeable for me. I toyed with the idea of a grip reduction and other changes to the Gen3, to fix some of my issues with it, but I want to shoot USPSA production in 2012, so I need a relatively unmolested gun for that.

[LOKNLOD]

Thanks JV. Hope it runs great for you.

[JV_]

I'm getting hit in the head quite a bit, even with the new ejector.

I put in a single rate 18# ISMI spring and it solved the problem, the ejection is still occasionally erratic, but significantly better than the 043 spring. I may try out a 15# spring and see if the increased slide velocity totally fixes it.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm getting hit in the head quite a bit, even with the new ejector.

I put in a single rate 18# ISMI spring and it solved the problem, the ejection is still occasionally erratic, but significantly better than the 043 spring. I may try out a 15# spring and see if the increased slide velocity totally fixes it.

Damn, you're a glutton for punishment. Gaston is your abusive spouse.

[Kyle Reese]

Now I have to buy a Gen 4.....


Gen4 vs JV - Round 2!

I picked up a Gen4 19 today. It has the new RSA, ejector, . connector, and has fired case date of 10/20.

I swapped the following:

. connector with a -
Slide Plate w/ Gadget
tapered trigger for flat faced trigger (still a gen4 trigger)
slide release for an extended slide release

I'll order some sights before Monday, I'm just not sure what mfr/type. I'm considering some Sevigny Carry (2 dot) sights or the Ameriglo Hack.

[JV_]

Damn, you're a glutton for punishment. Gaston is your abusive spouse.I felt too defeated after the first failure.

[JV_]

I have almost 2000 rounds through this Gen4 19 (latest RSA and ejector).

With this gun, there is a direct correlation to erratic ejection and strong recoil springs.

With the stock spring I get hit in the head about 60% of the time, the remaining 40% it's forward of the gun and/or left. Changing the extractor to a non-dip LCI didn't make a difference.

The stock spring, with plus p ammo, produces a decent ejection pattern and I was not hit in the head often.

With a well worn GlockMeister 18# ISMI setup, ejection is 99% correct and fairly consistent.

A 15# ISMI spring, with 5 coils removed to allow full slide travel, produces a very consistent ejection pattern and is off to the right.

The downside to these weaker recoil springs is that it doesn't pass the vertical gun trigger test, but the primer strikes are well centered and there is no issue when firing the gun. I have been contemplating a reduced power striker spring to "fix" it, but this is a carry gun and I'm not sure if I want to go there.

[JV_]

With this gun, there is a direct correlation to erratic ejection and strong recoil springs.

It looks like the threshold for 100% function with the OEM recoil spring and no brass in my face is a 124g bullet @ 1200 fps. That's a pretty warm load, warmer than 124g American Eagle.

I'm going to see how it behaves with a Gen3 RSA, I'd prefer to find an OEM solution to this, since those are the least expensive.

[Long tom coffin]

It looks like the threshold for 100% function with the OEM recoil spring and no brass in my face is a 124g bullet @ 1200 fps. That's a pretty warm load, warmer than 124g American Eagle.

I'm going to see how it behaves with a Gen3 RSA, I'd prefer to find an OEM solution to this, since those are the least expensive.



Might I humbly suggest the Win NATO m882? That's my usual practice ammo and it does quite well. From my own perspective, I've found that particular round practically mirrors the recoil characteristics of my carry ammo. The box FPS is 1200 out of 4" barrel, but I've chrony'd it higher than that before.

[JV_]

Might I humbly suggest the Win NATO m882? That's my usual practice ammo and it does quite well.M882 might be just fine. But to be honest, I just spent almost $2K in a Dillon 1050, so the thought of buying non defensive ammo is a bit far from my mind. I used the 124g AE as my test ammo because: I have it on hand, it's not known to be a light load (1130 fps), and has worked well is almost every gun I've tried.

[fuse]

JV, where do you chrono your ammo?

[JV_]

JV, where do you chrono your ammo?

There is an outdoor 'sight in' range near my house. They don't allow pistols, but there isn't usually an rso around, so I fit it in between rifle strings.

-Sent using Tapatalk.

[JV_]

I'm going to settle for the Gen3 19 RSA. The ejection isn't perfect, but it doesn't pelt my head with brass, and it functions well.

The 15# spring is just too light. It didn't have any FTRTBs, but it almost did, and since it fails the vertical trigger test - it's a no-go. I like that it's the cheapest option (and a factory supplied part).

[JV_]

If you want to try my aftermarket recoil springs, let me know.

[Cosmo M3]

The amount of trial and error we're doing is ridiculous.

[JV_]

The amount of trial and error we're doing is ridiculous.

It's more than I'd like, but my gun seems to be running fairly well, as long as I don't use the 043 RSA. If it keeps running like this, and all it takes is a running the Gen3 RSA, I'll be fairly happy with my Gen4. I'm holding off on buying a backup gun though ...

[JV_]

After almost 3000 rounds, with either a Gen3 RSA or a 15# ISMI, the gun is running well. I'm happy with it.

[ToddG]

I'd be very interested to see a slow fire (bench) accuracy test with the gen3 spring vs gen4 spring in the gun.

[JV_]

I'd be very interested to see a slow fire (bench) accuracy test with the gen3 spring vs gen4 spring in the gun.I really suck at shooting Glocks from a bench/support. If you'd like to give it a whirl, you're more than welcome to try.

[JHC]

I'd be very interested to see a slow fire (bench) accuracy test with the gen3 spring vs gen4 spring in the gun.

A fellow on GT benched a Gen 4 G17 with four different RSA's from original heavy 0-1 plus aftermarket and displayed pics of the groups. It was interesting alright. Finding that thread would be a mothu though.

[ToddG]

A fellow on GT benched a Gen 4 G17 with four different RSA's from original heavy 0-1 plus aftermarket and displayed pics of the groups. It was interesting alright. Finding that thread would be a mothu though.

I appreciate you volunteering! Let us know when you find it. :cool:

[JeffJ]

Ignorant newb question -- How does the RSA affect accuracy? Early unlocking issue?

[ToddG]

Ignorant newb question -- How does the RSA affect accuracy? Early unlocking issue?

Or the opposite, in this case. The theory -- and it's just that -- is that the heavier RSA keeps the otherwise less-than-match grade Glock locked up very tight and consistently.

Without getting into details, I've been privy to some very scientifically gathered accuracy results and the gen4 guns were impressive compared to earlier versions. My own G17, while not a tack driver, is far better than I'd expect from Glock given my experience with prior generations. After 50,000 rounds downrange it still gives better than 2.5" at 25yd with P9HST3 (M&P9 was 1.92" with the same ammp, HK45 was 1.8" with match ammo, P30 was an incredible 1.53" with 124gr +p Gold Dot).

[JHC]

I've printed 1.5" for 5 shots of 147 Ranger from our 1st Gen 4 G17. Both have demonstrated pretty extreme accuracy for a service pistol. I'll give finding that thread a go.

[JHC]

Here is the thread. The pics are gone (space is rationed per user). http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1267341

correction - OP says groups were fired offhand at 15 yards. Showed a preference for the original 01 RSA.

[Cosmo M3]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2591-I-think-I-found-a-cure-to-the-late-model-Glock-ejection-disease

[turbolag23]

i'm looking to get a g19 soon. have there been any breakthroughs with the gen 4's or is is still recommended to stick with gen 3?

[JV_]

i'm looking to get a g19 soon. have there been any breakthroughs with the gen 4's or is is still recommended to stick with gen 3?

I would get the gen3.

-Sent using Tapatalk.

[JV_]

I started the range session with about 4K rounds through the gun. I had some stovepipe issues ... ugh. I briefly considered parting ways with this Gen4, to avoid another repeat performance since the last one went down hill at 4400 rounds, but I'm determined to make this work.

Since the gun hasn't been cleaned, and was quite dirty, I fully stripped and cleaned it. The extractor hook filled, to the max, with residue.

While looking for possible causes, I took time to measure some of my recoil springs. The aftermarket guide rods (I have a few), and supplied springs, seem to vary a good bit in how much they allow the slide to travel. The one I'm currently using, stopped the slide travel about .075" sooner than a factory Gen3 RSA (w/ adapter) and the OEM Gen 4 spring. That's essentially 3 coils .... so I removed them. From my experiments with the 15# spring, this reduced slide travel can cause stovepipes. I hope this was the fix.

For me, this has been a good lesson in aftermarket parts.

[turbolag23]

it sure would be nice if they figured out the issues with these guns. i guess i'll have to start paying more attention to these threads. the store was out of gen3 g19's so i ended up picking up a gen4. while i do like the grip and mag release i'm not looking forward to the headaches like i read about on forums.

[JV_]

it sure would be nice if they figured out the issues with these guns.

I agree. My gun should run with the OEM spring, and it doesn't. But (and assuming I fixed today's issue), my problems are entirely fixed with the recoil spring change. I'm OK with that solution.

[BLR]

For me, this has been a good lesson in aftermarket parts.

That is the greatest strength and greatest weakness in 1911s. I've been hankering for a Gen4 G22 for some time, and have been holding back waiting for this to get properly worked out.

[JV_]

That is the greatest strength and greatest weakness in 1911s. I've been hankering for a Gen4 G22 for some time, and have been holding back waiting for this to get properly worked out.

It's funny, because of all of this required tinkering, I've been lusting after an STI/2011 9mm gun. If I'm going to have to tinker to make something work, I may as well do it with a gun where it's expected!

[turbolag23]

i took the glock armorers course a year ago but have rarely had to touch my gen3 glocks, maybe i'll get into tinkering now with the gen4.

[DocGKR]

JV--I think you would have more success tinkering with an M&P9, as Hilton Yam recently discussed: http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=98522#Post98522.

[JV_]

JV--I think you would have more success tinkering with an M&P9
BTDT, in 2010. I left because of the unlocking problems.

My SHO/WHO performance was awesome with the Apex DCAEK.

[DocGKR]

Clearly you did not tinker enough--not to mention that the STI's tend to require even MORE effort to keep running...

[JV_]

not to mention that the STI's tend to require even MORE effort to keep running...I don't doubt that, but I expect it out of a 1911/2011, not a Glock or S&W.

But in all honesty, it's not going to be easy for me to part with $1800. I want one, but not the bill. It's probably just talk, I'm going to get this Gen4 working.

[LittleLebowski]

That is the greatest strength and greatest weakness in 1911s. I've been hankering for a Gen4 G22 for some time, and have been holding back waiting for this to get properly worked out.

The Gen4 9mms are the problematic ones, not the 40s.

[texasaggie2005]

it doesn't pass the vertical gun trigger test

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is the vertical gun trigger test?

[JV_]

(with an unloaded gun....)

Hold the trigger back
Point the gun straight up
Ease the slide forward

It should be able to fully close & lock up. If it can't, your recoil spring is probably too weak.

[JV_]

I've officially shelved the gun. It's simply not reliable enough for carry, and it's become too frustrating to deal with all of the malfunctions that have started to popup. I'm going to let Glock further troubleshoot the problems.

In the mean time, I'm shooting my Gen3 17 EXO from last year.

[LOKNLOD]

That's unfortunate.

[GOP]

It's still kind of unbelievable to me how Glock would take an ultra-reliable platform like the Gen3 and change the inner-workings even a little. If my Gen3 ever dies, im in trouble.

[JV_]

I shot the gun for 1 month and 1 week
16 Range Trips
4635 rounds
15 Malfunctions

[fuse]

Did you try the HRED?

I swear it fixed my early Gen4 G17, till I blew it up.

Currently it's been running great since I got it back from Glock, using the stock spring loaded bearing they installed in it. And the new ejector.

I do believe the HRED to be a superior and more robust part, though.

Pretty freaking unbelievable that your gun's problems clearly go beyond the new ejector.

Would you fancy trying out the APEX parts in this when/if they're released?

[JV_]

I did not try an HRED. But I did try using a pre-LCI bearing (SLB), which increases the extractor tension.

I gave a few extractors a shot, including some pre-dip LCI extractors.

I'm undecided on the Apex parts, I'll think harder about them when they're actually released. I waited a long time for the M&P Barsto barrel .... and it's still not here.

[Long tom coffin]

I did not try an HRED. But I did try using a pre-LCI bearing (SLB), which increases the extractor tension.

I gave a few extractors a shot, including some pre-dip LCI extractors.

I'm undecided on the Apex parts, I'll think harder about them when they're actually released. I waited a long time for the M&P Barsto barrel .... and it's still not here.



I will second the HRED. I have one, although it was probably unnecessary as my my 4's are fine, and it certainly makes ejection strong. My buddy josh recently upgraded to an 0-4-3 spring in his, and it stovepiped 5 times in the first mag alone. It would still stovepipe sporadically and he was getting pelted either in the face or the head about 60% of the time after that. I gave him one of my spare HREDS (when I order parts, I usually order more than one for backup purposes), which he then placed into the gun. No more stove pipes over an additional 300 rounds, and definitely no weak ejection. Some of of the cases still came backwards, but at about half the instances of previously. Even the ones that came back weren't a problem; the HRED is so powerful they were ejecting out at least 10 to 12 inches over Josh's bean. He had practically no brass to his side but a ton of it behind him. Funny stuff.;)
.

[JV_]

No more stove pipes over an additional 300 rounds, and definitely no weak ejection. Some of of the cases still came backwards, but at about half the instances of previously. Even the ones that came back weren't a problem; the HRED is so powerful they were ejecting out at least 10 to 12 inches over Josh's bean. He had practically no brass to his side but a ton of it behind him. Funny stuff.;)
.

While an interesting data point, it'll need a lot more than 300 rounds to convince me. I increased the extractor tension to not get pelted in the face, and it works, but the problems came back within 750 rounds. The aftermarket RSA was the single best change I made to the gun, it made it 95%.

LittleLebowski has the HRED in his gun and he was getting malfunctions the last time we hit the range.

[fuse]

Seems like the 19 is the most [removed] of the gen 4's.

[JodyH]

Glock took the de facto "gold standard" of pistols and turned it into a complete disaster in one generation.
That has to go down as the biggest blunder by a respected firearms manufacturer since the Colt All-American 2000.

[turbolag23]

I shot the gun for 1 month and 1 week
16 Range Trips
4635 rounds
15 Malfunctions

did your issues start right out of the box?
ive had one stovepipe at round 179 and i recall todd's test gun had its first one early at 62 rounds.

[JV_]

did your issues start right out of the box?
ive had one stovepipe at round 179 and i recall todd's test gun had its first one early at 62 rounds.

As the round count got higher, the issues came more frequently.

Out of the box, it pelted me in the face/head with brass.

[LittleLebowski]

As the round count got higher, the issues came more frequently.

Out of the box, it pelted me in the face/head with brass.

Such was my experience with the malfunctions and round count. However, I had a few malfunctions out of the box. There's a lot of people on the gun forums thinking their Gen4s are "fine" and I suspect their weapons will malfunction with greater frequency as the round count goes up.

[JV_]

There's a lot of people on the gun forums thinking their Gen4s are "fine" and I suspect their weapons will malfunction with greater frequency as the round count goes up.From my forum browsing, many folks claiming to have good guns have total round counts which look like numbers that I have logged for one session.

Now, I'm sure there are plenty of guns that run fine, and are higher round count guns ... But I'm 0/2 and both started going downhill at very similar round counts.

[LittleLebowski]

From my forum browsing, many folks claiming to have good guns have total round counts which look like numbers that I have logged for one session.

Now, I'm sure there are plenty of guns that run fine, and are higher round count guns ... But I'm 0/2 and both started going downhill at very similar round counts.

"300 flawless rounds!"

[JV_]

"300 flawless rounds!"Exactly.

[JodyH]

My late production Gen3 RTF 17 displayed most if the same tendencies from an early round count up until I gave up on it and went to the P30.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

[JV_]

I had my first malfunction on the 2nd range trip, at 269 rounds.

[turbolag23]

From my forum browsing, many folks claiming to have good guns have total round counts which look like numbers that I have logged for one session.

Now, I'm sure there are plenty of guns that run fine, and are higher round count guns ... But I'm 0/2 and both started going downhill at very similar round counts.

thats what i was trying to figure out as I only have 369 rounds through my gun. from what ive seen on the forums it sounds like the people with issues have more rounds through the gun however the test gun seemed to have the early issues clear up after more rounds.

[JV_]

the test gun seemed to have the early issues clear up after more rounds.The test gun is a 17, not a 19. There may be general Gen 4 problems, and something specific to the 19 too.

[turbolag23]

The test gun is a 17, not a 19. There may be general Gen 4 problems, and something specific to the 19 too.

i guess i didnt think of that, i was thinking general gen 4 9mm issues.

[Long tom coffin]

While an interesting data point, it'll need a lot more than 300 rounds to convince me. I increased the extractor tension to not get pelted in the face, and it works, but the problems came back within 750 rounds. The aftermarket RSA was the single best change I made to the gun, it made it 95%.

LittleLebowski has the HRED in his gun and he was getting malfunctions the last time we hit the range.


Such was my experience with the malfunctions and round count. However, I had a few malfunctions out of the box. There's a lot of people on the gun forums thinking their Gen4s are "fine" and I suspect their weapons will malfunction with greater frequency as the round count goes up.


To start (and perhaps LL is the best person to answer this) what kind of malfs was he having?


As for the "you don't have enough rounds to judge" argument, my primary G19, purchased 3/2011, has over 10,000 trouble free rounds through it right now. 1/5 of that was my carry ammo, 124 gr GD, and the rest was a mix of Magtech, AE and Win nato with some PMC bronze thrown in. In another thread on this subject, Todd correctly pointed out that several members of this forum have had problems across multiple different Gen 4s. I'm not disputing that, but at the same time that is also not squaring with my real life experience. On the internuts, it seems as if JHC and I are the only two people who have Gen 4's that do not regularly soil the bedsheets. On the flip side, my aforementioned buddy josh is the only person I know IRL who has a problematic Gen 4. I know 11 people who I'm either friends with or shoot with regularly who have Gen 4's; 10 of those people have had no problems with their gen 4's. 6 of those people have higher rounds counts on their 19's than I do, and those six have older models than I do as well. These people include Paul B, local LEO and owner of Ultimate Defense range and training in St. Charles and several of his employees, and Mike, of Mike's Guns also in St. Charles. Mike has one of the very first Gen 4 19's; his even has the original black finish on the slide. He's still rocking all the original parts with no problems.


Contrast that with people like JV and Todd, who have gotten multiple bum Gen 4's in a row. I don't dispute that, but how exactly do I reconcile the reports of failure I read on the internet with the multiple successes I've seen first hand? I do admit that there are some problematic Gen 4's, probably for a wide variety of reasons, but I can't discount the entire line as a failure based on my own first hand experience as well as the experience of the people I know directly.

[JV_]

To start (and perhaps LL is the best person to answer this) what kind of malfs was he having?The most recent one I witnessed was a stovepipe.


I can't discount the entire line as a failure based on my own first hand experience as well as the experience of the people I know directly.I don't think you need to discount the entire line, just know that it's a gamble, just like the 9mm M&P and it's accuracy issues.

[Chuck Haggard]

Sort of on target;

My gen 3 G19 was 100% reliable for over 2000 rounds, then all of a sudden it was crapping the bed every 50-100 rounds.

I ended up with a "new" old extractor, and HRED and new RSA, now it runs great except I get brass on top of my head 3-4 times per magazine.


While dealing that that gun I trade into a G23 that also has a Lone Wolf 9mm barrel, I plan on trading the gun off (my disdain for the gen 3 .40s after my long and well documented issues has not let up, much...) but I have some old .40 ammo laying around and I am curious about the 9mm barrel and reliability.

That G23 runs as a .40 as long as I don't hang a light on it (no plans to do so, I just checked, that issue still exists), and runs really, really well so far as a 9mm, 1000+ 9mm rounds through the gun and no malfs, and NO brass in the face. Not one single time. With stock factory .40 parts in the gun, except the 9mm barrel and G19 magazines. It also seems to recoil just slightly less than the G19, likely due to the slightly heavier slide and the barrel being sort of a bull barrel due to having a 9mm hole in a .40 barrel.

Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm.................

[Long tom coffin]

The most recent one I witnessed was a stovepipe.


Ah. That's odd, wouldn't have expected that with the HRED. Has either of your ever malfed with carry ammo? Josh is obviously dissatisfied with the range performance of his G19, the only reason he still carries it is because it's never had a hiccup of any sort in just over a 1000 rounds of his carry ammo, HST.




I don't think you need to discount the entire line, just know that it's a gamble, just like the 9mm M&P and it's accuracy issues.

This whole scenario makes me wish I had gotten into guns 10 years earlier to avoid this whole systemic QC snafu.

[JV_]

Has either of your ever malfed with carry ammo?No, but I didn't shoot a noteworthy amount of carry ammo.